actually, he's gently hinting that your post, and your defense of all that Cryptic does and has done, is serving an agenda of deflection.
Nothing personal, but your post is a tl;dr at this time in the morning. At least it is before the caffeine kicks in.
Well if someone wishes to appeal to tribalism and assume that someone like myself who is trying to take the most honest position he can and examine the facts presented to him and come to conclusions accordingly - attempting to take the path with the least amount of bias and agenda... this person ignoring that, all while refusing to have any semblance of rational discussion... I'd think that says more about that person than it does about myself.
I definitely care enough about people who refuse honest discussion, or else I wouldn't be responding to them as such. Or more accurately, I am concerned about their unwillingness to be intellectually honest. But I ask them - why should I care about what they actually say if they're gonna be so childish?
Something I get tired of seeing.. "Klingons wouldn't do science. They are a military society!" Forget the fact that there was an interstellar Empire long before humans ever had warp drive (or even made it into space). Forget the fact that the Klingon defense force was already a force to be reckoned with prior to the Federation even existing. Yes, Klingon society is a military society.
So is the US Army.
In the Army, everyone is a soldier. However, you have other jobs. Engineer. Scientist. Doctor. Nurse. Medic. Researcher and Development. Networking.
Yes, most Klingons are warriors. They also have other jobs.. they haul freight. They patrol spaceways. They save the Enterprise. They rescue the Federation.
Anyone who thinks Klingons aren't capable of being more than "pew pew stab stab" needs to take a bit of a reality check, and maybe talk to a military veteran.
Something I get tired of seeing.. "Klingons wouldn't do science. They are a military society!" Forget the fact that there was an interstellar Empire long before humans ever had warp drive (or even made it into space). Forget the fact that the Klingon defense force was already a force to be reckoned with prior to the Federation even existing. Yes, Klingon society is a military society.
So is the US Army.
In the Army, everyone is a soldier. However, you have other jobs. Engineer. Scientist. Doctor. Nurse. Medic. Researcher and Development. Networking.
Yes, most Klingons are warriors. They also have other jobs.. they haul freight. They patrol spaceways. They save the Enterprise. They rescue the Federation.
Anyone who thinks Klingons aren't capable of being more than "pew pew stab stab" needs to take a bit of a reality check, and maybe talk to a military veteran.
Federation Science = Lets study the migratory paterns of a bird.
Klingon Science = Let's blow up Oklahoma City
Romulan Science = Lets make the next great recreational drug (Yes I ran in to one of these in the Solanae Sphere on the potential to turn the Voth tranguilizer in to a recreation drug as a doff assignment)
As dark here said. I'm a Veteran of the US Army. 11 years, 4 months Honorable Service. Corps of Engineers, Combat Engineer.
I may not know how to cure a disease. But I do know what house hold chemicals I can go to the store and buy to make a bomb. Just like the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was done with regualr house hold chemicals.
Here is another one, that a lot of people have done, Molotov Cocktails, which is gas, kerosene, or diesel in a glass bottle with a rag on fire. Give it a good pitch and well you just created a Exothermal Induction Field.
Science has many different fields.
The Federation is mostly the masters of Research Science, Romulans are almost just as good.
Klingons are the mastes of Appllied Science. Romulans would be the next in line here. Though their singualrity cores kind of put tem on par in the applied sciences department.
And you can find this at any College that offers Science Courses. There will always be an Applied Sciences Course in there as well. Meaning choose your path.
Federation, Research and Development in anything but weapons(and lets not forget, a lot of the federation medical advancements came from the *gasp* Orions).
Klingons, Applied Sciences for Weapons, Armor, and Ships.
Romulans, R&D with a background in applied sciences.
So the Federation really does need to explain why they're making nothing but weapons of war, when they're suppose to be preachers of peace.
So lets see the Klingons aren't science oriented. Hmm...
Biologist, Botanist, Geologist, Research Lab scientist, Biochemist, and Developemental Research Scientist, well here's your farmers and ranchers.
Warp Theorist, Arstometrics Scientist, Research Lab Assistant, and Developmental Research Science, well here's some Klingon sciencists that the Klingons had long before humans even knew what a steam engine was.
So anyone that says Klingons aren't good with science, needs to pull their head out of their azz and take a look at what they already have. You know, being a warp capable race when humans were still using sailing ships.
The Federation is a bit better at science, I'll give you that. But lets stop and think, its because they have more RESOURCES to use.
If Romulus and Remus hadn't been destroyed. Romulans would be the top dog in science.
Klingons do science just not the way the feds do this is the issue.
as for "no one playing kdf" I dunno I think quite a few do. Everyone wants to be the shiny white night though in this game and in others games. I play DCUO and a couple others games from time to time. I made a villain in DCUO and even though villains in DCUO are just as interesting as the Hero's the same symptoms occur.
So even though villains have all the same toys its harder to get things done in any competitive areas (they have some pvp stuff as well heroes vs villains) and in most cases the heroes go uncontested in any open zones due to the fact that they outnumber villains 10:1.
And ironically, applied science is what the Science profession in STO is all about gameplay-wise. We don't even play Fed labcoat scientists. Or at least not doing labcoat scientist things. The closest we get is sending our crew to do it off-camera. I am referring to the R&D system, which interestingly enough the KDF can participate in with equal footing with Fed characters.
Oh, but having Klingon ships that utilize power drain to disable enemies, project generated singularities to collapse enemy hulls, activate generators to honorably repair a fellow warrior's ship in the midst of combat, or manipulate the field of battle in their favor... [sarcasm]KLINGONS SHOULDN'T HAVE SHIPS THAT SPECIALIZE IN THAT, HUH?!?[/sarcasm]
Federation Science = Lets study the migratory paterns of a bird.
Klingon Science = Let's blow up Oklahoma City
Romulan Science = Lets make the next great recreational drug (Yes I ran in to one of these in the Solanae Sphere on the potential to turn the Voth tranguilizer in to a recreation drug as a doff assignment)
As dark here said. I'm a Veteran of the US Army. 11 years, 4 months Honorable Service. Corps of Engineers, Combat Engineer.
I may not know how to cure a disease. But I do know what house hold chemicals I can go to the store and buy to make a bomb. Just like the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was done with regualr house hold chemicals.
Here is another one, that a lot of people have done, Molotov Cocktails, which is gas, kerosene, or diesel in a glass bottle with a rag on fire. Give it a good pitch and well you just created a Exothermal Induction Field.
Science has many different fields.
The Federation is mostly the masters of Research Science, Romulans are almost just as good.
Klingons are the mastes of Appllied Science. Romulans would be the next in line here. Though their singualrity cores kind of put tem on par in the applied sciences department.
And you can find this at any College that offers Science Courses. There will always be an Applied Sciences Course in there as well. Meaning choose your path.
Federation, Research and Development in anything but weapons(and lets not forget, a lot of the federation medical advancements came from the *gasp* Orions).
Klingons, Applied Sciences for Weapons, Armor, and Ships.
Romulans, R&D with a background in applied sciences.
So the Federation really does need to explain why they're making nothing but weapons of war, when they're suppose to be preachers of peace.
So lets see the Klingons aren't science oriented. Hmm...
Biologist, Botanist, Geologist, Research Lab scientist, Biochemist, and Developemental Research Scientist, well here's your farmers and ranchers.
Warp Theorist, Arstometrics Scientist, Research Lab Assistant, and Developmental Research Science, well here's some Klingon sciencists that the Klingons had long before humans even knew what a steam engine was.
So anyone that says Klingons aren't good with science, needs to pull their head out of their azz and take a look at what they already have. You know, being a warp capable race when humans were still using sailing ships.
The Federation is a bit better at science, I'll give you that. But lets stop and think, its because they have more RESOURCES to use.
If Romulus and Remus hadn't been destroyed. Romulans would be the top dog in science.
This "theoretical vs applied" thing reminds me of something I wrote a log time ago.
Guess what? It was about Klingons and science ships.
[...]
Klingon applications of these scientific systems would be somewhat more "practical" than the way Starfleet would do things but the general functionality would be comparable.
For example Starfleet would survey a mountain to learn something about the age and history of a planet.
Klingons would survey the same mountain to see if it contains valuable minerals.
Starfleet would investigate flaura and fauna to learn something about the way evolution occured on the planet.
Klingons would check for hazards and investigate whether flaura and fauna would make them a good foodsource for a possible colonization.
A Starfleet geologist would analyze the tectonic stability of an area out of interest.
A Klingon geologist would check whether an area is stable enought for a colony, a mine or whether it is suitable for a geothermal powerplant.
Different goals, similar means.
[...]
it's interesting to see how much of it repeats ifself.
KDF don't do science? Need I say again cracked the ability to fire while cloaked. Kinda hard to do that without a science team figuring it out.
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Something I get tired of seeing.. "Klingons wouldn't do science. They are a military society!" Forget the fact that there was an interstellar Empire long before humans ever had warp drive (or even made it into space). Forget the fact that the Klingon defense force was already a force to be reckoned with prior to the Federation even existing. Yes, Klingon society is a military society.
So is the US Army.
In the Army, everyone is a soldier. However, you have other jobs. Engineer. Scientist. Doctor. Nurse. Medic. Researcher and Development. Networking.
Yes, most Klingons are warriors. They also have other jobs.. they haul freight. They patrol spaceways. They save the Enterprise. They rescue the Federation.
Anyone who thinks Klingons aren't capable of being more than "pew pew stab stab" needs to take a bit of a reality check, and maybe talk to a military veteran.
That's nice. Now factor in that the Klingons canonically stole their warp capability from the Hur'q (DS9: "The Sword of Kahless") rather than developing it naturally like the Feds and Romulans did. Also consider that their warrior caste was overtaking their entire society as early as ENT.
Yes, the Klingons do have the necessary supporting industries for war. But they also systematically undervalue them, and place little to no importance on any development without military applications.
Klingons are not stupid, no. The Klingon Empire, however, is a dung heap that breeds nothing but war criminals that babble about honor to give themselves an excuse to be pointlessly violent. And that's if you're a Klingon. Anytime you want to see how non-Klingons who don't get into the KDF live, take the sidequest in First City that has you tour the slums. They're as bad as the old European ghettoes.
KDF don't do science? Need I say again cracked the ability to fire while cloaked. Kinda hard to do that without a science team figuring it out.
That's easy. You just need a big enough power generator that you don't need your entire power supply going to the engines and cloaking device.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's nice. Now factor in that the Klingons canonically stole their warp capability from the Hur'q (DS9: "The Sword of Kahless") rather than developing it naturally like the Feds and Romulans did.
You just made that up
Show me the part of the transcript that substantiates your claims
Ok, fine, I misremembered the episode. I knew I had read it somewhere, though: turns out from the Memory Alpha article that info actually came from Star Trek: Klingon Academy. I notice a distinct lack of a counterargument for anything else I said.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's nice. Now factor in that the Klingons canonically stole their warp capability from the Hur'q (DS9: "The Sword of Kahless") rather than developing it naturally like the Feds and Romulans did. Also consider that their warrior caste was overtaking their entire society as early as ENT.
Yes, the Klingons do have the necessary supporting industries for war. But they also systematically undervalue them, and place little to no importance on any development without military applications.
Klingons are not stupid, no. The Klingon Empire, however, is a dung heap that breeds nothing but war criminals that babble about honor to give themselves an excuse to be pointlessly violent. And that's if you're a Klingon. Anytime you want to see how non-Klingons who don't get into the KDF live, take the sidequest in First City that has you tour the slums. They're as bad as the old European ghettoes.
That's easy. You just need a big enough power generator that you don't need your entire power supply going to the engines and cloaking device.
Well now those slums are clean... last I checked they were in pretty bad shape from the Iconians. They may not be in better shape. But hey, at least they're clean.
On this, we actually do need to take a step back from canon, just a tad. Since we do have other races in he game that are part of the Empire and only one of those are a Conquered Race, the Gorn.
For the most part the klingons ignore science in the game. Until you make it to lvl 44, and then its a Klingon that starts you down the path to your Omega/Maco gear.
But from that point on. I really don't see the empire ignoring Science and what it can do. Because starting at teh borg, you start getting more and more, go scan this or that mission requirement. Espescially in the Breen Arc.
Then from there you step in to Solanae... and well.. there is no lack of Science there. Sure we got the Dyson out of it. But come on.. these things look like they were designed by someone playing with playdough, tripping on acid, while watching Bob the Builder. Then you progress on to Delta and everythign leading up to the Iconians. Theres more than enough Science there.
Sure we got the T6 Science Command Battlecruiser. But, though its barely passable as a science ship. But in reality its just another cruiser.
Ok I need to back up a bit. forgot that blasted hypospray during the Devidian arc.
So we need to take a step back from canon on this. Because if the game was by canon. Everyone would be Federation and there wouldn't be any other Factions. Also if we're going straight by canon here. The Federation wouldn't be making so many weapons of war. So take a look at your ship and the gear on your character, then think about which Faction would be the one to make something like that. Because I can bet you, it wasn't the Federation, and if it was. It was inspired by something that someone else made. Like the universal consoles you love having on your ship. Those were introduced to the game as a KDF faction ONLY item.
And yes the HUMANS developed warp drive on their own. That much you have right. But after that, they had Vulcan's holding there hands and teaching them. The only thing humans have a claim to is that they discovered warp drive on their own.
The Klingons may have stolen their original warp drive from someone else. But that was a long time ago and they've developed it quite a bit. If you go back to TOS, aka the Klingon Wars. Everytime the Federation made a technological improvement it was because the Klingons had developed better stuff.
Also if we're going by canon. Then your ships shields would not be operating all the time. You would put them up when you went to Red Alert just like every Captain in the series and movies does. But that would be bad because then the BoP would be devastating to your precious ship. Just like it was from TOS til now.
Also the medical advancement that were made in the Federation. Half of them were thanks to the ORIONS and their ADVANCED medical research. That's right, half the Federation's medical advancements was because of what is now a KDF Race.
And all this happens before the Romulans, Cardassians, or anyone else comes in to the story.
With all this in mind. Look at your ship. Look at your gear. Be thankful to the KDF that you have it. Then stop and think,
Something I get tired of seeing.. "Klingons wouldn't do science. They are a military society!" Forget the fact that there was an interstellar Empire long before humans ever had warp drive (or even made it into space). Forget the fact that the Klingon defense force was already a force to be reckoned with prior to the Federation even existing. Yes, Klingon society is a military society.
So is the US Army.
In the Army, everyone is a soldier. However, you have other jobs. Engineer. Scientist. Doctor. Nurse. Medic. Researcher and Development. Networking.
Yes, most Klingons are warriors. They also have other jobs.. they haul freight. They patrol spaceways. They save the Enterprise. They rescue the Federation.
Anyone who thinks Klingons aren't capable of being more than "pew pew stab stab" needs to take a bit of a reality check, and maybe talk to a military veteran.
and sometimes I get tired of hearing non star trek fans, or fans who don't know their canon all that well make comments on the forums..
there was a few episodes in tng (I will look up tomorrow as im headed to bed in a minute) where there was a scientific conference. a klink attended, and the crew was curious about him.. he went on to talk about how he was an outcast, and how he had trouble doing anything because the Klingon empire did not support the sciences.
there was another episode where the enterprise was doing an experiment and again, there was a klink scientist who commented on him being one of the few true scientists in the empire..
also, I remember dialogue in the show that stated the Klingons gained a lot of their knowledge and advances through conquest.
further more, in most cases that a klink was on a scientific mission, their idea was to blow whatever they were studying up. even in the hunt for the dna program, that klink only cared about possible weapons, not knowledge.. (the one data head butted.).
canon is refute with examples of how the empire did not support the sciences, and put most of the efforts, energies, and resources to defense and conquest.
the only true scientific klinks I can think of who seemed to have a clue, were Christopher loyd and his science officer, but again, it was less about what it could do, and more how it could be used as a weapon.. same goes for the trilithium... they let soren do all the science, and they just wanted to know how to make the weapon..
well, then obviously Klingons don't eat, because you need various sciences for successful farming. They don't drink, because you need various sciences to clean water and to also make any alcoholic beverage you want to drink. They certainly don't have any ships, because it takes science and engineering to design and build ships.
Ok, fine, I misremembered the episode. I knew I had read it somewhere, though: turns out from the Memory Alpha article that info actually came from Star Trek: Klingon Academy. I notice a distinct lack of a counterargument for anything else I said.
Klingon Academy was licenced from Paramount, not CBS.. and that backround info might actually be from FASA Startrek RPG material.
As I noted in another thread as far as STO is concerned it only canon if CBS agree's it's canon... Cryptic has to have all backround, and lore in the game vetted by CBS.
It is assumed that the Klingons got warp teck from them, But there are other better possible scources that say other wise.
The short stories by De'Condito in the Klingon Art of War, don't say ether way, But knowing that something is possible can in and of it's self be a head start on developing technological expertise..
If you would like a real world example look at the history of Japan during the Meji restoration after a fellow named Perry sailed into Tokyo bay and forced open trade with the west. While not quite the same.. there are a great many parallel.
One of the things that always bugged me about STO is here is this utterly awesome opportunity to fill in the history of the Klingons.... and so little has been done!
In the mean time I keep seeing totally arbitrary limitations placed on Klingons as a conceptualized alien specie.. In the mean time we the player base try to do as best we can with the toys we do get.. and as KDF without the toys we SHOULD get.
and sometimes I get tired of hearing non star trek fans, or fans who don't know their canon all that well make comments on the forums..
there was a few episodes in tng (I will look up tomorrow as im headed to bed in a minute) where there was a scientific conference. a klink attended, and the crew was curious about him.. he went on to talk about how he was an outcast, and how he had trouble doing anything because the Klingon empire did not support the sciences.
there was another episode where the enterprise was doing an experiment and again, there was a klink scientist who commented on him being one of the few true scientists in the empire..
also, I remember dialogue in the show that stated the Klingons gained a lot of their knowledge and advances through conquest.
further more, in most cases that a klink was on a scientific mission, their idea was to blow whatever they were studying up. even in the hunt for the dna program, that klink only cared about possible weapons, not knowledge.. (the one data head butted.).
canon is refute with examples of how the empire did not support the sciences, and put most of the efforts, energies, and resources to defense and conquest.
the only true scientific klinks I can think of who seemed to have a clue, were Christopher loyd and his science officer, but again, it was less about what it could do, and more how it could be used as a weapon.. same goes for the trilithium... they let soren do all the science, and they just wanted to know how to make the weapon..
Things in canon that Starfleet has done that caused humans to stay on track with the time line with what it is.
Scotty, plexiglass, to save the whales.
T'Pal, Velcro sold to give kid college money.
TNG, helped creator of warp drive, develope warp drive.
Ok, fine, I misremembered the episode. I knew I had read it somewhere, though: turns out from the Memory Alpha article that info actually came from Star Trek: Klingon Academy. I notice a distinct lack of a counterargument for anything else I said.
In canon it's not clear IF the Hur'Q invasion did predate the Klingons developing warp drive though... It's certainly a possibility.
well, then obviously Klingons don't eat, because you need various sciences for successful farming.
Strawman argument. No one is saying they don't have SOME science, just as they have SOME farmers, etc. Although much of that is now supplanted by conquered species.
But the vast majority of the society is directed to a warrior caste. You can cry and make up false arguments to defeat all you want, that doesn't change the fact of the actual Television background for them.
BTW another fun strawman is the idea that those of us pointing that out are for 0 science ships for the Klingons also. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm all for them, just not in the variety that other factions have.
As dark here said. I'm a Veteran of the US Army. 11 years, 4 months Honorable Service. Corps of Engineers, Combat Engineer.
I may not know how to cure a disease. But I do know what house hold chemicals I can go to the store and buy to make a bomb. Just like the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was done with regualr house hold chemicals.
Sigh at comparing a fictional character species to RL situations.
Kind of like how the "Warrior society" was overtaking Japan. Notably, this did not stop the Imperial Japanese army from conducting biological warfare testing, nor did it cripple their own native industrial and technological devlopment quite independently of the Third Reich.
Strawman argument. No one is saying they don't have SOME science, just as they have SOME farmers, etc. Although much of that is now supplanted by conquered species.
But the vast majority of the society is directed to a warrior caste. You can cry and make up false arguments to defeat all you want, that doesn't change the fact of the actual Television background for them.
BTW another fun strawman is the idea that those of us pointing that out are for 0 science ships for the Klingons also. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm all for them, just not in the variety that other factions have.
Again no one has argued the don't do ANY science.
The real strawman is claiming that you need Science Vessels to do science.
You just don't.
Not building science ships is not the same as not conducting scientific research. It just means you don't build particular shpis for it. You can do science on planets, on stations, and you can use the other ships you already have.
There was science going on the Enterprise D, which was not a Science Vessel, but a Cruiser, and in STO it was particualrly Engineering heavy. It was involved in analyzing all kind of pheneomena.
The Defiant was involved in research on Wormholes and subspace compression phenomena. It was an Escort - a euphenism for warship, if you remember...
The KDF would have no probem using its own Cruisers, Carriers, Bird of Preys and Raptors do to the same.
But Krieger radiation was researched on a base. A new mining technology was researched on a base.
You don't need a starship to advance sciences.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Strawman argument. No one is saying they don't have SOME science, just as they have SOME farmers, etc. Although much of that is now supplanted by conquered species.
Klingons may not do much science, but we're not talking about Klingons here, we're talking about the Klingon Empire. The Romans didn't do much science,m they tended to leave that to Greeks living in Roman controlled provinces.
But the vast majority of the society is directed to a warrior caste. You can cry and make up false arguments to defeat all you want, that doesn't change the fact of the actual Television background for them.
Again you are confusing Klingons with the Empire as a whole.
BTW another fun strawman is the idea that those of us pointing that out are for 0 science ships for the Klingons also. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm all for them, just not in the variety that other factions have.
Is a car designed with no wheels and no engine nor the option to add those, still a car or is it just a ton and a half of expensive scrap metal...
Again no one has argued the don't do ANY science.
*cough* Nope they get others in the Empire to do it for them...
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Klingons may not do much science, but we're not talking about Klingons here, we're talking about the Klingon Empire. The Romans didn't do much science,m they tended to leave that to Greeks living in Roman controlled provinces.
Again you are confusing Klingons with the Empire as a whole.
Which is what I said previously. They take it through war, or through subjugated, and conquered species in the Empire. But the Empire still sets the funding, and their funding doesn't put a lot (again not all) to war.
And again, no one saying there isn't some Klink science or they shouldn't have sci vessals.
Personally I'd like to see more of the DSD style ships for KDF sci ships at lower levels where you can flip between tac and sci which is something I think the empire would style itself with.
Just my 2 EC.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Comments
Or just throw a somehow infinitely modular Photon Torpedo at it.
Need to disperse some sort of agent into the atmosphere? Throw some light into a darkened region? Start a race?
Fire a torpedo!
My character Tsin'xing
So did crazy Augments on "Enterprise"...using Klingon torpeodes.
Well if someone wishes to appeal to tribalism and assume that someone like myself who is trying to take the most honest position he can and examine the facts presented to him and come to conclusions accordingly - attempting to take the path with the least amount of bias and agenda... this person ignoring that, all while refusing to have any semblance of rational discussion... I'd think that says more about that person than it does about myself.
I definitely care enough about people who refuse honest discussion, or else I wouldn't be responding to them as such. Or more accurately, I am concerned about their unwillingness to be intellectually honest. But I ask them - why should I care about what they actually say if they're gonna be so childish?
lol that's probably it! :P
This. So much this.
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Federation Science = Lets study the migratory paterns of a bird.
Klingon Science = Let's blow up Oklahoma City
Romulan Science = Lets make the next great recreational drug (Yes I ran in to one of these in the Solanae Sphere on the potential to turn the Voth tranguilizer in to a recreation drug as a doff assignment)
As dark here said. I'm a Veteran of the US Army. 11 years, 4 months Honorable Service. Corps of Engineers, Combat Engineer.
I may not know how to cure a disease. But I do know what house hold chemicals I can go to the store and buy to make a bomb. Just like the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was done with regualr house hold chemicals.
Here is another one, that a lot of people have done, Molotov Cocktails, which is gas, kerosene, or diesel in a glass bottle with a rag on fire. Give it a good pitch and well you just created a Exothermal Induction Field.
Science has many different fields.
The Federation is mostly the masters of Research Science, Romulans are almost just as good.
Klingons are the mastes of Appllied Science. Romulans would be the next in line here. Though their singualrity cores kind of put tem on par in the applied sciences department.
And you can find this at any College that offers Science Courses. There will always be an Applied Sciences Course in there as well. Meaning choose your path.
Federation, Research and Development in anything but weapons(and lets not forget, a lot of the federation medical advancements came from the *gasp* Orions).
Klingons, Applied Sciences for Weapons, Armor, and Ships.
Romulans, R&D with a background in applied sciences.
So the Federation really does need to explain why they're making nothing but weapons of war, when they're suppose to be preachers of peace.
So lets see the Klingons aren't science oriented. Hmm...
Biologist, Botanist, Geologist, Research Lab scientist, Biochemist, and Developemental Research Scientist, well here's your farmers and ranchers.
Warp Theorist, Arstometrics Scientist, Research Lab Assistant, and Developmental Research Science, well here's some Klingon sciencists that the Klingons had long before humans even knew what a steam engine was.
So anyone that says Klingons aren't good with science, needs to pull their head out of their azz and take a look at what they already have. You know, being a warp capable race when humans were still using sailing ships.
The Federation is a bit better at science, I'll give you that. But lets stop and think, its because they have more RESOURCES to use.
If Romulus and Remus hadn't been destroyed. Romulans would be the top dog in science.
Klingons do science just not the way the feds do this is the issue.
as for "no one playing kdf" I dunno I think quite a few do. Everyone wants to be the shiny white night though in this game and in others games. I play DCUO and a couple others games from time to time. I made a villain in DCUO and even though villains in DCUO are just as interesting as the Hero's the same symptoms occur.
So even though villains have all the same toys its harder to get things done in any competitive areas (they have some pvp stuff as well heroes vs villains) and in most cases the heroes go uncontested in any open zones due to the fact that they outnumber villains 10:1.
Oh, but having Klingon ships that utilize power drain to disable enemies, project generated singularities to collapse enemy hulls, activate generators to honorably repair a fellow warrior's ship in the midst of combat, or manipulate the field of battle in their favor... [sarcasm]KLINGONS SHOULDN'T HAVE SHIPS THAT SPECIALIZE IN THAT, HUH?!?[/sarcasm]
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This "theoretical vs applied" thing reminds me of something I wrote a log time ago.
Guess what? It was about Klingons and science ships.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5558231&postcount=1
[...]
Klingon applications of these scientific systems would be somewhat more "practical" than the way Starfleet would do things but the general functionality would be comparable.
For example Starfleet would survey a mountain to learn something about the age and history of a planet.
Klingons would survey the same mountain to see if it contains valuable minerals.
Starfleet would investigate flaura and fauna to learn something about the way evolution occured on the planet.
Klingons would check for hazards and investigate whether flaura and fauna would make them a good foodsource for a possible colonization.
A Starfleet geologist would analyze the tectonic stability of an area out of interest.
A Klingon geologist would check whether an area is stable enought for a colony, a mine or whether it is suitable for a geothermal powerplant.
Different goals, similar means.
[...]
it's interesting to see how much of it repeats ifself.
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That's nice. Now factor in that the Klingons canonically stole their warp capability from the Hur'q (DS9: "The Sword of Kahless") rather than developing it naturally like the Feds and Romulans did. Also consider that their warrior caste was overtaking their entire society as early as ENT.
Yes, the Klingons do have the necessary supporting industries for war. But they also systematically undervalue them, and place little to no importance on any development without military applications.
Klingons are not stupid, no. The Klingon Empire, however, is a dung heap that breeds nothing but war criminals that babble about honor to give themselves an excuse to be pointlessly violent. And that's if you're a Klingon. Anytime you want to see how non-Klingons who don't get into the KDF live, take the sidequest in First City that has you tour the slums. They're as bad as the old European ghettoes.
That's easy. You just need a big enough power generator that you don't need your entire power supply going to the engines and cloaking device.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You just made that up
Show me the part of the transcript that substantiates your claims
http://www.chakoteya.net/ds9/481.htm
Ok, fine, I misremembered the episode. I knew I had read it somewhere, though: turns out from the Memory Alpha article that info actually came from Star Trek: Klingon Academy. I notice a distinct lack of a counterargument for anything else I said.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Well now those slums are clean... last I checked they were in pretty bad shape from the Iconians. They may not be in better shape. But hey, at least they're clean.
On this, we actually do need to take a step back from canon, just a tad. Since we do have other races in he game that are part of the Empire and only one of those are a Conquered Race, the Gorn.
For the most part the klingons ignore science in the game. Until you make it to lvl 44, and then its a Klingon that starts you down the path to your Omega/Maco gear.
But from that point on. I really don't see the empire ignoring Science and what it can do. Because starting at teh borg, you start getting more and more, go scan this or that mission requirement. Espescially in the Breen Arc.
Then from there you step in to Solanae... and well.. there is no lack of Science there. Sure we got the Dyson out of it. But come on.. these things look like they were designed by someone playing with playdough, tripping on acid, while watching Bob the Builder. Then you progress on to Delta and everythign leading up to the Iconians. Theres more than enough Science there.
Sure we got the T6 Science Command Battlecruiser. But, though its barely passable as a science ship. But in reality its just another cruiser.
Ok I need to back up a bit. forgot that blasted hypospray during the Devidian arc.
So we need to take a step back from canon on this. Because if the game was by canon. Everyone would be Federation and there wouldn't be any other Factions. Also if we're going straight by canon here. The Federation wouldn't be making so many weapons of war. So take a look at your ship and the gear on your character, then think about which Faction would be the one to make something like that. Because I can bet you, it wasn't the Federation, and if it was. It was inspired by something that someone else made. Like the universal consoles you love having on your ship. Those were introduced to the game as a KDF faction ONLY item.
And yes the HUMANS developed warp drive on their own. That much you have right. But after that, they had Vulcan's holding there hands and teaching them. The only thing humans have a claim to is that they discovered warp drive on their own.
The Klingons may have stolen their original warp drive from someone else. But that was a long time ago and they've developed it quite a bit. If you go back to TOS, aka the Klingon Wars. Everytime the Federation made a technological improvement it was because the Klingons had developed better stuff.
Also if we're going by canon. Then your ships shields would not be operating all the time. You would put them up when you went to Red Alert just like every Captain in the series and movies does. But that would be bad because then the BoP would be devastating to your precious ship. Just like it was from TOS til now.
Also the medical advancement that were made in the Federation. Half of them were thanks to the ORIONS and their ADVANCED medical research. That's right, half the Federation's medical advancements was because of what is now a KDF Race.
And all this happens before the Romulans, Cardassians, or anyone else comes in to the story.
With all this in mind. Look at your ship. Look at your gear. Be thankful to the KDF that you have it. Then stop and think,
Who is it that shouldn't have what exactly?
and sometimes I get tired of hearing non star trek fans, or fans who don't know their canon all that well make comments on the forums..
there was a few episodes in tng (I will look up tomorrow as im headed to bed in a minute) where there was a scientific conference. a klink attended, and the crew was curious about him.. he went on to talk about how he was an outcast, and how he had trouble doing anything because the Klingon empire did not support the sciences.
there was another episode where the enterprise was doing an experiment and again, there was a klink scientist who commented on him being one of the few true scientists in the empire..
also, I remember dialogue in the show that stated the Klingons gained a lot of their knowledge and advances through conquest.
further more, in most cases that a klink was on a scientific mission, their idea was to blow whatever they were studying up. even in the hunt for the dna program, that klink only cared about possible weapons, not knowledge.. (the one data head butted.).
canon is refute with examples of how the empire did not support the sciences, and put most of the efforts, energies, and resources to defense and conquest.
the only true scientific klinks I can think of who seemed to have a clue, were Christopher loyd and his science officer, but again, it was less about what it could do, and more how it could be used as a weapon.. same goes for the trilithium... they let soren do all the science, and they just wanted to know how to make the weapon..
Or maybe you're an idiot.
Klingon Academy was licenced from Paramount, not CBS.. and that backround info might actually be from FASA Startrek RPG material.
As I noted in another thread as far as STO is concerned it only canon if CBS agree's it's canon... Cryptic has to have all backround, and lore in the game vetted by CBS.
It is assumed that the Klingons got warp teck from them, But there are other better possible scources that say other wise.
The short stories by De'Condito in the Klingon Art of War, don't say ether way, But knowing that something is possible can in and of it's self be a head start on developing technological expertise..
If you would like a real world example look at the history of Japan during the Meji restoration after a fellow named Perry sailed into Tokyo bay and forced open trade with the west. While not quite the same.. there are a great many parallel.
One of the things that always bugged me about STO is here is this utterly awesome opportunity to fill in the history of the Klingons.... and so little has been done!
In the mean time I keep seeing totally arbitrary limitations placed on Klingons as a conceptualized alien specie.. In the mean time we the player base try to do as best we can with the toys we do get.. and as KDF without the toys we SHOULD get.
Things in canon that Starfleet has done that caused humans to stay on track with the time line with what it is.
Scotty, plexiglass, to save the whales.
T'Pal, Velcro sold to give kid college money.
TNG, helped creator of warp drive, develope warp drive.
My character Tsin'xing
Strawman argument. No one is saying they don't have SOME science, just as they have SOME farmers, etc. Although much of that is now supplanted by conquered species.
But the vast majority of the society is directed to a warrior caste. You can cry and make up false arguments to defeat all you want, that doesn't change the fact of the actual Television background for them.
BTW another fun strawman is the idea that those of us pointing that out are for 0 science ships for the Klingons also. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm all for them, just not in the variety that other factions have.
Again no one has argued the don't do ANY science.
Why wouldn't they from a conquered species? Episode in Enterprise of them essentially doing just that with the Holographic tech.
Sigh at comparing a fictional character species to RL situations.
Sigh again.
Umm no it wasn't canonically from that episode. That was not from that episode at all.
"According to the manual for Star Trek: Klingon Academy, the Klingons acquired warp drive from the Hur'q."
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hur%27q
Apocrypha isn't considered canon.
The real strawman is claiming that you need Science Vessels to do science.
You just don't.
Not building science ships is not the same as not conducting scientific research. It just means you don't build particular shpis for it. You can do science on planets, on stations, and you can use the other ships you already have.
There was science going on the Enterprise D, which was not a Science Vessel, but a Cruiser, and in STO it was particualrly Engineering heavy. It was involved in analyzing all kind of pheneomena.
The Defiant was involved in research on Wormholes and subspace compression phenomena. It was an Escort - a euphenism for warship, if you remember...
The KDF would have no probem using its own Cruisers, Carriers, Bird of Preys and Raptors do to the same.
But Krieger radiation was researched on a base. A new mining technology was researched on a base.
You don't need a starship to advance sciences.
Klingons may not do much science, but we're not talking about Klingons here, we're talking about the Klingon Empire. The Romans didn't do much science,m they tended to leave that to Greeks living in Roman controlled provinces.
Again you are confusing Klingons with the Empire as a whole.
Is a car designed with no wheels and no engine nor the option to add those, still a car or is it just a ton and a half of expensive scrap metal...
*cough* Nope they get others in the Empire to do it for them...
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Which is what I said previously. They take it through war, or through subjugated, and conquered species in the Empire. But the Empire still sets the funding, and their funding doesn't put a lot (again not all) to war.
And again, no one saying there isn't some Klink science or they shouldn't have sci vessals.
Just my 2 EC.
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