im guessing when you by mercedes, and mercedes brings out a new model. you call your old car a garbage, and you expect to get a new model for free. because it works like that, right?
Wrong comparison.
The difference is that there was no problem with your ship, and no need to upgrade it. Cryptic created the reason themselves just to generate money. It's more like a refrigerator that stops working after a year because the manufacturer added a chip that causes it to stop working. Just so you'll buy a new one.
Since you are somewhat dense, what else do you think is the 13th BO power (NOT ability, the quote referred to power)?
Edit:corrected for typo's
Beta, LTA, CE, Multiple preorder Versions, all Addon Packs except AoY, nearly all KDF/Rom and ~50% of all Fedships, over 25 LockboxShips, Endurer of Atari's "Year of Hell", but...
LOL did you ever start a flame troll fest lol
From my humble view if you paid ZEN for a BUNDLE deal then that BUNDLE should benefit from free upgrades 5k ZEN is a lotta credit!
I would go as far as saying 250 ZEN for an upgrade to ZEN ships is fair for everyone, nothing in life is free as they say but to charge 1000 ZEN and then not get all the upgrades does seem a bit anti gamer. A tiered charge for abilities would seem fair also 250 per unlock for example but i agree with the masses being charged twice for something you own is rough, afterall it wasnt us that just moved the goal post!
T6 ships i suspect are aimed more at PVP'ers hence the rage fest (134 pages at present)
With all the cost reductions done for rep and fleets can we not continue this theme and make this transition less painful, quatity over quality will surely earn a bigger revenue for the company, does it matter if everyone is flying T6 ships really?
Lockbox ships are free thats good but fleet should be also, the cost of those modules is 500 ZEN each! and to get the latest ship thats DIL+FM+2500 ZEN (i'll leave dil in but im not sure as i dont pay the prices for modules its too high)
So what i am saying is making it more attainable will attract more sales = More $$$
If i dont NEED to have a t6 or t5U to continue playing why would i buy one other than vanitiy?
My guess is yes after the T5U "upgrading" spree will end ....
Actually my pessimistic vision involves them adding a new fleet holding "Delta Stardock" (or a similar name) or a T6 level to star bases, and then having fleets sink a ton of Dil and resources into the ability to make Fleet T6.
So basically, people upgrade their ships to grind with, so the results of that grinding can go towards getting the ability to spend fleet modules to upgrade their T6 ships. Not to mention people who will buy Zen to convert to Dil in order to help fill some of those huge fleet projects...
I mean if your going to get pessimistic, you might as well go all out though envision this:
inspired by organized crime movies, where simply paying money to the syndicate is not enough,
T7 planned for January (right after the Christmas event) will require cutting off a section of your finger and sending it in to Cryptic to prove your devotion after which they will flag your account to begin the new grinds and purchases. Apparently they considered first born children, but they realized with all the grinding STO players didn't have time to copulate... (sex would mean taking time away from the Elite STF queue)
You guys do realise that this thread is technically not being read by the Devs any longer. After about 100 or so pages, Captain Smirk posted that he compiled the most relevant data to use as feedback.
bet they pick all the fanboys for the positive feedback an not worry about da complaints
Second, some things will be excluded from Tier 5-U ships, which is fine as long as they are minor. These three things are Starship Traits, Specialist BOFF and an extra BOFF power. Well one of those isn't very minor and could make all Tier 5-U ships considerably more inferior then anyone wants including Cryptic I think. The extra BOFF slot. Why do they get an extra console but not a BOFF slot? They need both to remain competitive I'm afraid. So keep the new bells and whistles exclusive if you must but I implore you to give them the extra BOFF slot.
I agree with the above .
This is the least they can do to make T5U ships compatible .
I apparently read it differently than you did then, and it seems like I'm not the only one with that impression. It seems to me that "Hybrid" seat they are talking about which will be on all starting T6 ships (but might not be present on all of them) is supposed to be in addition to whatever else it had. It also mentions specifically talking about the new Boff abilities in a later blog from what I remember.
We really wanted this tier of starships to stand out and offer some unique features not found anywhere else. These ships can (but dont always) have hybrid bridge officer seats that can slot Specialist Bridge Officers. These special officers have access to two complete pools of bridge officer abilities. One of these pools is a complete suite of all new bridge officer abilities, while the other is an existing profession: Tactical, Science or Engineering. Its important to note that while these ships dont always feature a Specialist Bridge Officer seat, all of the Tier 6 ships launching with Delta Rising will feature at least one of these special seats.
That said, were not quite ready to fully reveal the new {REDACTED} Bridge Officers. You can expect to get a full reveal of this new type of Bridge Officer in the very near future! Stay tuned!
**All Tier 6 ships launching with Delta Rising will come with a Specialist Bridge Officer seat.
However, it should be noted that future Tier 6 ships may not always come with one.
Were it an additional seat, they would have had no issue adding the word "additional" with each reference of it...but yeah, until we see the stats or a dev clarifies it since the matter has been raised multiple times in the thread (hopefully one of the things Smirk passed along for clarification) - we won't know exactly what's what.
Tier 5U? More like Tier 5.75
A few months down the line and we will be able to upgrade to Tier 6 for another Fleet Module.
I actually cannot understand the reasoning not to just upgrade all ships to Tier 6 for a module and be done with it. It would probably claim the flames a bit.
Where did you get that impression though? No dev nor blog has mentioned it.
Both the T6 and T5-U blogs mention an additional BOFF ability.
The T6 blog mentions a hybrid BOFF seat, not an additional BOFF seat.
There's no mention of the T6 ships having an additional BOFF seat/slot.
Further, they've said that not all T6 ships will have the hybrid seats and thus not all T6 ships will be able to take advantage of the Specialist BOFFs that have access to both the career abilities and specialist abilities. It's only the T6 ships at launch which will definitely have the hybrid seats.
Which pretty much means if you fly a T5-U ship, your not going to be able to use the specialist Boff abilities, thus cutting you out of the new Boff system.
My understanding is that those seats that allow the use of the new Boffs are an additional thing to the normal complement of slots. That's how it reads to me. You think I'm jumping to conclusions, I do not. We shall have to wait and see what happens.
The difference is that there was no problem with your ship, and no need to upgrade it. Cryptic created the reason themselves just to generate money. It's more like a refrigerator that stops working after a year because the manufacturer added a chip that causes it to stop working. Just so you'll buy a new one.
Wrong comparison.
It's more like your HD TV, which works fine, whilst a new 4K TV is being introduced, with you being p*ssed about it, because your old TV is now 'garbage.'
Except, of course, that Cryptic has the decency to upgrade your old 'TV' in the process... FOR FREE!
Holy mother of Internet :eek:, 134 pages in 14 hours or so!
First of all Thanks to Cryptic for this nice chunck of info, its very welcomed and it brings answers to alot of questions and end of some speculations.
Its sad that alot of ppl are upset, but this is normal what is happening. Game evolves, its changing. This is a good thing. In all MMOs new gear/items are released as new content, expasions etc are released.
And on some level this was allready hapening from some time, but wasnt obvious to many ppl just becouse the new ships werent labeled different. I mean look at ship releases like the scimitar, fleet ar'kif, nicor, FPE and the last xindi escort. They allready made most of the c-sore ships and even fleet ships and other lockbox ships obsolete.
I myself I am really happy that some of the OP ships like the bug ships or the scimitar dont get full T6 upgrades. And like this a path is opened for new lockboxes with T6 ships, wich is really great.
I know at this time this is just specualtion, but T6 ships may not be that powerfull, becouse I think only the ones from the release will have all the whisles and bells, and not so much the others that will come afterwards. They will be something like the dyson hybrid ships, an exception, at least for some time.
I don't think the upgrade cost will go away. And it doesn't bother me that much...
What bothers me is that the upgrade isn't a full upgrade - I am still a BO ability short. I think you can't weigh out a BO ability with an extra console and a bit more hit points. Not even if you consider console abilities.
The other thing that seems problematic is how complicated this system actually is.
You may have a fleet or a non-fleet ship, and can then choose to upgrade, but upgrading the fleet shpi doesn't upgrade the non-fleet ship and vice versa? Expect a lot of complains of people being frustrated that they just throw away 500 to 1000 Zen for upgrading the wrong ships. Plus the general confusion of having to different types of "upgrades" on a ship.
I can only strongly recommend to streamline the mechanics here in some way, and be more forgiven.
Let's say you upgrade a Vesta - all Vestas have the upgrade.
You upgrade the Exploration Cruiser Retrofit - your Fleet Exploration Cruiser Retrofit also gets the upgrade.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Which pretty much means if you fly a T5-U ship, your not going to be able to use the specialist Boff abilities, thus cutting you out of the new Boff system.
My understanding is that those seats that allow the use of the new Boffs are an additional thing to the normal complement of slots. That's how it reads to me. You think I'm jumping to conclusions, I do not. We shall have to wait and see what happens.
You will have to give up a normal BOFF ability to use the Specialist BOFF ability, though. The Specialist BOFFs have access to both pools. So say a ship has a hybrid Tac seat - say it was Cmdr ranked - the Specialist BOFF ability would have to be pretty awesome to give up a normal ability.
And again, there's simply no mention of the hybrid seats being additional seats. There's mention of potentially having multiple hybrid seats...so does that create the expectation of the T6 ships having not only the 6 BOFF seats you're picturing, but even 7 or 8 BOFF seats? Or is it simpler to go with there having been no mention of additional seats...?
T5-U11 (cause it's important to keep in mind there are both T5-U10s and T5-U11s)...
+1 console
+10% hull
+10% shields
T6...
+1 unknown ranked BOFF ability (could be Lt, LCdr, or maybe even Cmdr - we don't know yet).
Hybrid BOFF seat (conflict with standard BOFF abilities in having to select those or Specialist BOFF abilities).
Ability to unlock a Starship Trait (a trait that can be used on a T5-U ship after being unlocked) that we have no information on.
And guess what? Things make more sense with regard to what Cryptic has been saying about the competitive nature of the T5-U (11 console) ships with the T6 ships...rather than it looking like they're looking folks right in the face and blatantly lying through their teeth about it.
No doubt having a ship with 2x Cmdr on it is going to be pretty heinous depending on what the Cmdr slot is...but we don't know any of that yet (again, something that clarification has been asked for multiple times since the T6 blog was released).
The hybrid BOFF stuff, the Specialist abilities...depending on what kind of station it is and what you'd be giving up...for what you get...yep, could definitely push things in favor of the T6 ship.
But again, it's not something we know yet.
It's one thing to take a look at what they've shared and what they haven't shared...to in turn share our concerns with them about what we don't know yet; but it's entirely something else just to make something up as if it was something they did say when they haven't said that anywhere. One is speculative concern and one is sabotage via misinformation...
It's more like your HD TV, which works fine, whilst a new 4K TV is being introduced, with you being p*ssed about it, because your old TV is now 'garbage.'
Except, of course, that Cryptic has the decency to upgrade your old 'TV' in the process... FOR FREE!
Comparing software items to real life items is wrong.Any old real item has a resale value aka you can sell your old mercedes (and quite well I might add) or your old HD TV
I don't see any option to sell back/to others our software items aka our T5 ships.
More the same things were said in another thread and I pinpointed there that costs in producing a real life item are per unit while producing software is one time cost so it is not correct to compare real life items to software products.(Even in accounting there are considered different types of assets)
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
I don't think the upgrade cost will go away. And it doesn't bother me that much...
What bothers me is that the upgrade isn't a full upgrade - I am still a BO ability short. I think you can't weigh out a BO ability with an extra console and a bit more hit points. Not even if you consider console abilities.
For me, it really comes down to the build there. I can picture scenarios where I'd rather have the 11th console, +10% hull and shields...I can picture scenarios where I really wish I had that additional BOFF ability. Thing is, without knowing where that additional BOFF ability goes - can't really say. Likewise, without knowing how that 11th console fits in - can't say either.
Lol, it's painful how they raise so many more questions with the tidbits they're dropping out piecemeal like this...and that we probably won't see an answer on any of that until next week or later...meh, it's going to be rough, eh?
Perhaps if they could at least answer how that +1 BOFF ability will work? Or is that even going to be variable depending on the ship and not a static thing...meh.
There's so much wait and see, where they're basically trolling us as somebody else mentioned with the way they're dropping info out. Sure, there's stuff they may not want to share - then don't share that, talk about something else where they can actually talk about it...this piecemeal TRIBBLE is going to get folks banned on the forums.
You guys do realise that this thread is technically not being read by the Devs any longer. After about 100 or so pages, Captain Smirk posted that he compiled the most relevant data to use as feedback.
Thanks, I was under the assumption that the thread was still being monitored for feedback. Glad to know I've been wasting my time. Lets hope the first 100 posts was enough to convince them of the error of T5-U
PVP aside, the model seems to handle the level cap increase as well as reasonably possible IMO. Depending on their time, budget and minmaxing tendencies, players have every option from a "free" ship, through to a themed classic which now sits below top-of-the-line but is still playable, or a shiny T6 next-next-next generation vessel. As far as I can tell, the only issue is how challenging the content is. But then, I just placed 3rd in a CCE with a free ship, no DOffs, no rep, and Mk X blue gear... (a new alt working up).
I have two thoughts, though:
Ship Mastery looks like a comeback of the old ship specialisations from pre-F2P. The big downside there was that you had to respec to change ships, which I know put me off doing so. The whole trend in the last few years has been to accommodate players running multiple concurrent ships - a more generic skill tree, swapping in sector space, and loadouts - whereas this seems to say "you can't just buy a new ship, you need to do a mini-rep for it". That is going to put people off buying new ships, I'm sure. Some sort of cost reduction - like sponsorship - for later ships should be considered.
Keeping "classic" ships at T5U for now is a logical move so as not to undermine the new T6 ships. But, please, consider for a year or so down the line doing full T6 refits of STO's most iadvanced or iconic ships - the "hero" ships from TV (including the B'rel and D'deridex), the flagships, advanced destroyers and Dyson ships.
bet they pick all the fanboys for the positive feedback an not worry about da complaints
Heh, I've seen a few references from folks about others being fanboys/fanbois; but I'm trying to recall anything that I read that came across that way. Don't think I've seen a single poo poo smells like sunshine post from anybody...even the accepting folks have still laced their posts with some form of disappointment. Mainly I've seen the fanboy/fanboi term used in reply to somebody telling somebody else to stop whining...and if the criteria for being a fanboy/fanboi is simply to wish that some folks would stop whining - meh, that's going to be damn confusing with all the complaining I'm doing about what Cryptic's doing.
Comparing software items to real life items is wrong.Any old real item has a resale value aka you can sell your old mercedes (and quite well I might add) or your old HD TV
I don't see any option to sell back/to others our software items aka our T5 ships.
More the same things were said in another thread and I pinpointed there that costs in producing a real life item are per unit while producing software is one time cost so it is not correct to compare real life items to software products.(Even in accounting there are considered different types of assets)
But you can't buy an upgrade for your TV that costs much less than a new TV. It seems the cost is basicalyl the price difference between a Tier 5 ship and a hypothetical Tier 6 ship.
The problem is that the upgrade doesn't seem to actually get you a Tier 6 equivalent ship - you end up a BO slot short. I don't know if it's also bad that you can't use the new BOFF abilities (that may depend on how good they are compared to the others, as always with BO seatings.). it could just be like having a new ship that doesn't get a science slot but a Dual Lt.Cmdr seating or something like that. But if you actually have a slot less..
Also, I think the whole upgrade system will end up being very... akwward, considering that there are also fleet ships i nthe mix, that already are a kind of upgrade.
So you get yourself a Retrofit Tactical escort, and upgrade it, but later you join a fleet, and can get a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, but now you don't have the upgrade for the fleet ship, so you end up paying twice? Uh-oH, I say.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Will the upgrade "tokens" be tradeable in the same way as FSMs are? I don't like the idea of upgrading being locked behind zen only.
Thanks for asking that...I keep going for a smoke, thinking about that, coming back, and completely forgetting to ask about it.
But yeah, are they going to be something that folks will be able to buy and sell on the Exchange...Cryptic would still get their money from the ZEN angle, but it would allow folks that didn't want to go that route or have been watching the D:Z exchange going up and up to try to find another means to pay for their upgrades...while again, Cryptic would still be getting their ZEN in the end.
Sorry if this has already been answered, but after reading the blogs and the forum I am still not sure how the upgrade of Fleet ships is handled.
Example:
Fleet Avenger / Mogh.
- what happens if it was bough entirely for fleet modules?
- what if there was already a discount because people bought the non-fleet Avenger/Mogh in the ZEN Store?
Fleet Ships were already some kind of T5 Upgrade ships.
Kinda Tier 5+, 5.5 in a way due to their 10th console slot like lockbox/lobi ships.
- The "5U" upgrade is account wide, so would I have to upgrade my Fleet Avenger/Mogh as well after upgrading the default Avengers/Moghs used by my alts, too?
Tier 5U? More like Tier 5.75
A few months down the line and we will be able to upgrade to Tier 6 for another Fleet Module.
I actually cannot understand the reasoning not to just upgrade all ships to Tier 6 for a module and be done with it. It would probably claim the flames a bit.
Well, I think the idea is to get people to buy the new ships. I'm guessing they are probably planning on asking more than the $25 a pop the T5 ones are going for, or at least the same price. They pretty much want a rush where all the regular players run out to pay top dollar for a new tier ship, as opposed to just keeping their current favorites, as frankly they already have an awesome selection of ships, and most iconic trek ships are already accounted for, along with almost every ship I can think of that aliens flew that a player might want. I mean cripes, players can fly Undine and Tholian ships even...
I think that's a big part of why people resent it, especially those of us who obtained "gambling game" ships of various types. Even if not strictly speaking required, nobody wants to be obsolete and people see this as Cryptic basically going around demanding money to keep playing at a competitive level and feeling cool.
Right now the big question of course comes down to whether Cryptic will compromise on the current system, and accept what is likely a smaller payday, or if they are going to call the community's complaints as bluster and stick to the current system expecting people to whine about it (as gamers do) but ultimately pay the money and keep playing. It's increasingly common in the game industry for companies to stop caring about reactions and what people say, as long as they get paid. I am hoping Cryptic doesn't go down that road, but it's quite possible, only time is going to tell.
For the most part I do not begrudge them making money, and yes, they doubtlessly expect to make money off the upcoming content expansion, how much money they make will of course influence what other content we get after this, and as an STO fan I'm hoping it does well. I do however think they are going about it the wrong way. Personally I think what Cryptic needs to do is at least give the Lobi/Lockbox/Pack ships full Tier 6 status, those are the ships held by the biggest game supporters anyway as the people with those paid into the game, or spend a lot of time accumulating resources to buy them from those that did (sometimes both). The T5U upgrade is fair for people with regular Z-store ships since those T5 ships *were* endgame but now that things have moved up common sense dictates they would be replaced just like Z-store ships with ranks below them. Cryptic should probably make it so the consoles from those ships can now be used with any ship, to match the logic of other lower tier Z-store ships, especially seeing as the value of the consoles will be what potentially allows them to still sell in the future.
With the T-6 ships Cryptic should of course rely on making them cool, as opposed to trying to force people to buy them entirely due to being needed upgrades. For example, if Cryptic wants me to give up my Voth ship, make a ship that I think is cooler than it is on it's own merits so I want to fly it, then time and resources permitting it gives me something to work towards, buy, or a combination of the two. However right now basically showing me a T6 ship on flow charts and saying "you want one of these because they are clearly better due to having these hybrid slots for specialist Boffs and an obtainable trait" doesn't impress me. Show me a ship I think will be more fun to fly, then we can talk. See, the way I spend money I figure dropping $25 of my entertainment budget for a ship I'm going to get 20 or more hours of enjoyment out of flying is reasonable (all I do right now is game, so a lot of my money goes to gaming, although that could change), and this also supports the game and allows more content to be created. On the other hand telling me I have to spend money and give up my current ships because otherwise I'll be behind the curve, that just slots me off. Right now you could give me a panty hose egg flying through space (actually that sort of appeared in Next Generation... all jokes aside) for all I know and I'm basically being told "fly this" because not doing it cuts into my options, not because I actually want to fly the bloody thing.
In short, Cryptic's game designers should be trying to wow me with how awesome their new ships are, not punish me with stats for daring to like other ships I went through a lot of effort for enough where I might want to keep them. The Voth Bulwark is a tough act to follow of course, but hey, who knows, maybe you can do it, but I shouldn't feel like I'm being beaten with a crowbar and forced into some 5U tier of second class citizens who are almost like real citizens, but don't have the perks (sort of like "You can live in Rome, but can't vote you bloody plebe")
Don't get me wrong, by the way...I have no doubt that Cryptic's going to monetize the Hell out of the Specialist BOFFs, the Starship Traits, and anything else they can..
edit: not related to the above, but I saw no need to bump my post count...but sheesh, the D:Z's up to 189:1 now - getting ready to hit 190:1.
But you can't buy an upgrade for your TV that costs much less than a new TV. It seems the cost is basicalyl the price difference between a Tier 5 ship and a hypothetical Tier 6 ship.
The problem is that the upgrade doesn't seem to actually get you a Tier 6 equivalent ship - you end up a BO slot short. I don't know if it's also bad that you can't use the new BOFF abilities (that may depend on how good they are compared to the others, as always with BO seatings.). it could just be like having a new ship that doesn't get a science slot but a Dual Lt.Cmdr seating or something like that. But if you actually have a slot less..
Also, I think the whole upgrade system will end up being very... akwward, considering that there are also fleet ships i nthe mix, that already are a kind of upgrade.
So you get yourself a Retrofit Tactical escort, and upgrade it, but later you join a fleet, and can get a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, but now you don't have the upgrade for the fleet ship, so you end up paying twice? Uh-oH, I say.
What did they actually mean by extra BO slot? An entire new slot? Or just an extra position on the heretofore Cmdr. slot? (presumably, your boffs can get promoted 1 rank too).
I have to admit, 1 entire boff slot less is quite a bit.
Comments
The difference is that there was no problem with your ship, and no need to upgrade it. Cryptic created the reason themselves just to generate money. It's more like a refrigerator that stops working after a year because the manufacturer added a chip that causes it to stop working. Just so you'll buy a new one.
Since you are somewhat dense, what else do you think is the 13th BO power (NOT ability, the quote referred to power)?
Edit:corrected for typo's
From my humble view if you paid ZEN for a BUNDLE deal then that BUNDLE should benefit from free upgrades 5k ZEN is a lotta credit!
I would go as far as saying 250 ZEN for an upgrade to ZEN ships is fair for everyone, nothing in life is free as they say but to charge 1000 ZEN and then not get all the upgrades does seem a bit anti gamer. A tiered charge for abilities would seem fair also 250 per unlock for example but i agree with the masses being charged twice for something you own is rough, afterall it wasnt us that just moved the goal post!
T6 ships i suspect are aimed more at PVP'ers hence the rage fest (134 pages at present)
With all the cost reductions done for rep and fleets can we not continue this theme and make this transition less painful, quatity over quality will surely earn a bigger revenue for the company, does it matter if everyone is flying T6 ships really?
Lockbox ships are free thats good but fleet should be also, the cost of those modules is 500 ZEN each! and to get the latest ship thats DIL+FM+2500 ZEN (i'll leave dil in but im not sure as i dont pay the prices for modules its too high)
So what i am saying is making it more attainable will attract more sales = More $$$
If i dont NEED to have a t6 or t5U to continue playing why would i buy one other than vanitiy?
Actually my pessimistic vision involves them adding a new fleet holding "Delta Stardock" (or a similar name) or a T6 level to star bases, and then having fleets sink a ton of Dil and resources into the ability to make Fleet T6.
So basically, people upgrade their ships to grind with, so the results of that grinding can go towards getting the ability to spend fleet modules to upgrade their T6 ships. Not to mention people who will buy Zen to convert to Dil in order to help fill some of those huge fleet projects...
I mean if your going to get pessimistic, you might as well go all out though envision this:
inspired by organized crime movies, where simply paying money to the syndicate is not enough,
T7 planned for January (right after the Christmas event) will require cutting off a section of your finger and sending it in to Cryptic to prove your devotion after which they will flag your account to begin the new grinds and purchases. Apparently they considered first born children, but they realized with all the grinding STO players didn't have time to copulate... (sex would mean taking time away from the Elite STF queue)
bet they pick all the fanboys for the positive feedback an not worry about da complaints
I agree with the above .
This is the least they can do to make T5U ships compatible .
Where does it say in addition though?
From the T6 blog...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7001833-tier-6-ships
From the T5-U blog...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7002133-tier-5-starship-upgrades
Were it an additional seat, they would have had no issue adding the word "additional" with each reference of it...but yeah, until we see the stats or a dev clarifies it since the matter has been raised multiple times in the thread (hopefully one of the things Smirk passed along for clarification) - we won't know exactly what's what.
A few months down the line and we will be able to upgrade to Tier 6 for another Fleet Module.
I actually cannot understand the reasoning not to just upgrade all ships to Tier 6 for a module and be done with it. It would probably claim the flames a bit.
A power is an ability... /facepalm
A power/ability is not a seat... /facepalm
Also, you spelled both think and referred wrong while calling somebody dense... /facepalm
Which pretty much means if you fly a T5-U ship, your not going to be able to use the specialist Boff abilities, thus cutting you out of the new Boff system.
My understanding is that those seats that allow the use of the new Boffs are an additional thing to the normal complement of slots. That's how it reads to me. You think I'm jumping to conclusions, I do not. We shall have to wait and see what happens.
Wrong comparison.
It's more like your HD TV, which works fine, whilst a new 4K TV is being introduced, with you being p*ssed about it, because your old TV is now 'garbage.'
Except, of course, that Cryptic has the decency to upgrade your old 'TV' in the process... FOR FREE!
First of all Thanks to Cryptic for this nice chunck of info, its very welcomed and it brings answers to alot of questions and end of some speculations.
Its sad that alot of ppl are upset, but this is normal what is happening. Game evolves, its changing. This is a good thing. In all MMOs new gear/items are released as new content, expasions etc are released.
And on some level this was allready hapening from some time, but wasnt obvious to many ppl just becouse the new ships werent labeled different. I mean look at ship releases like the scimitar, fleet ar'kif, nicor, FPE and the last xindi escort. They allready made most of the c-sore ships and even fleet ships and other lockbox ships obsolete.
I myself I am really happy that some of the OP ships like the bug ships or the scimitar dont get full T6 upgrades. And like this a path is opened for new lockboxes with T6 ships, wich is really great.
I know at this time this is just specualtion, but T6 ships may not be that powerfull, becouse I think only the ones from the release will have all the whisles and bells, and not so much the others that will come afterwards. They will be something like the dyson hybrid ships, an exception, at least for some time.
What bothers me is that the upgrade isn't a full upgrade - I am still a BO ability short. I think you can't weigh out a BO ability with an extra console and a bit more hit points. Not even if you consider console abilities.
The other thing that seems problematic is how complicated this system actually is.
You may have a fleet or a non-fleet ship, and can then choose to upgrade, but upgrading the fleet shpi doesn't upgrade the non-fleet ship and vice versa? Expect a lot of complains of people being frustrated that they just throw away 500 to 1000 Zen for upgrading the wrong ships. Plus the general confusion of having to different types of "upgrades" on a ship.
I can only strongly recommend to streamline the mechanics here in some way, and be more forgiven.
Let's say you upgrade a Vesta - all Vestas have the upgrade.
You upgrade the Exploration Cruiser Retrofit - your Fleet Exploration Cruiser Retrofit also gets the upgrade.
You will have to give up a normal BOFF ability to use the Specialist BOFF ability, though. The Specialist BOFFs have access to both pools. So say a ship has a hybrid Tac seat - say it was Cmdr ranked - the Specialist BOFF ability would have to be pretty awesome to give up a normal ability.
And again, there's simply no mention of the hybrid seats being additional seats. There's mention of potentially having multiple hybrid seats...so does that create the expectation of the T6 ships having not only the 6 BOFF seats you're picturing, but even 7 or 8 BOFF seats? Or is it simpler to go with there having been no mention of additional seats...?
And guess what? Things make more sense with regard to what Cryptic has been saying about the competitive nature of the T5-U (11 console) ships with the T6 ships...rather than it looking like they're looking folks right in the face and blatantly lying through their teeth about it.
No doubt having a ship with 2x Cmdr on it is going to be pretty heinous depending on what the Cmdr slot is...but we don't know any of that yet (again, something that clarification has been asked for multiple times since the T6 blog was released).
The hybrid BOFF stuff, the Specialist abilities...depending on what kind of station it is and what you'd be giving up...for what you get...yep, could definitely push things in favor of the T6 ship.
But again, it's not something we know yet.
It's one thing to take a look at what they've shared and what they haven't shared...to in turn share our concerns with them about what we don't know yet; but it's entirely something else just to make something up as if it was something they did say when they haven't said that anywhere. One is speculative concern and one is sabotage via misinformation...
My bet is they will put our complaints in a neat pile labeled "Vocal Minority" - and BURN it.
Comparing software items to real life items is wrong.Any old real item has a resale value aka you can sell your old mercedes (and quite well I might add) or your old HD TV
I don't see any option to sell back/to others our software items aka our T5 ships.
More the same things were said in another thread and I pinpointed there that costs in producing a real life item are per unit while producing software is one time cost so it is not correct to compare real life items to software products.(Even in accounting there are considered different types of assets)
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
For me, it really comes down to the build there. I can picture scenarios where I'd rather have the 11th console, +10% hull and shields...I can picture scenarios where I really wish I had that additional BOFF ability. Thing is, without knowing where that additional BOFF ability goes - can't really say. Likewise, without knowing how that 11th console fits in - can't say either.
Lol, it's painful how they raise so many more questions with the tidbits they're dropping out piecemeal like this...and that we probably won't see an answer on any of that until next week or later...meh, it's going to be rough, eh?
Perhaps if they could at least answer how that +1 BOFF ability will work? Or is that even going to be variable depending on the ship and not a static thing...meh.
There's so much wait and see, where they're basically trolling us as somebody else mentioned with the way they're dropping info out. Sure, there's stuff they may not want to share - then don't share that, talk about something else where they can actually talk about it...this piecemeal TRIBBLE is going to get folks banned on the forums.
Thanks, I was under the assumption that the thread was still being monitored for feedback. Glad to know I've been wasting my time. Lets hope the first 100 posts was enough to convince them of the error of T5-U
I have two thoughts, though:
Ship Mastery looks like a comeback of the old ship specialisations from pre-F2P. The big downside there was that you had to respec to change ships, which I know put me off doing so. The whole trend in the last few years has been to accommodate players running multiple concurrent ships - a more generic skill tree, swapping in sector space, and loadouts - whereas this seems to say "you can't just buy a new ship, you need to do a mini-rep for it". That is going to put people off buying new ships, I'm sure. Some sort of cost reduction - like sponsorship - for later ships should be considered.
Keeping "classic" ships at T5U for now is a logical move so as not to undermine the new T6 ships. But, please, consider for a year or so down the line doing full T6 refits of STO's most iadvanced or iconic ships - the "hero" ships from TV (including the B'rel and D'deridex), the flagships, advanced destroyers and Dyson ships.
Heh, I've seen a few references from folks about others being fanboys/fanbois; but I'm trying to recall anything that I read that came across that way. Don't think I've seen a single poo poo smells like sunshine post from anybody...even the accepting folks have still laced their posts with some form of disappointment. Mainly I've seen the fanboy/fanboi term used in reply to somebody telling somebody else to stop whining...and if the criteria for being a fanboy/fanboi is simply to wish that some folks would stop whining - meh, that's going to be damn confusing with all the complaining I'm doing about what Cryptic's doing.
But you can't buy an upgrade for your TV that costs much less than a new TV. It seems the cost is basicalyl the price difference between a Tier 5 ship and a hypothetical Tier 6 ship.
The problem is that the upgrade doesn't seem to actually get you a Tier 6 equivalent ship - you end up a BO slot short. I don't know if it's also bad that you can't use the new BOFF abilities (that may depend on how good they are compared to the others, as always with BO seatings.). it could just be like having a new ship that doesn't get a science slot but a Dual Lt.Cmdr seating or something like that. But if you actually have a slot less..
Also, I think the whole upgrade system will end up being very... akwward, considering that there are also fleet ships i nthe mix, that already are a kind of upgrade.
So you get yourself a Retrofit Tactical escort, and upgrade it, but later you join a fleet, and can get a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, but now you don't have the upgrade for the fleet ship, so you end up paying twice? Uh-oH, I say.
or this to a critical success one
=^.^=
Thanks for asking that...I keep going for a smoke, thinking about that, coming back, and completely forgetting to ask about it.
But yeah, are they going to be something that folks will be able to buy and sell on the Exchange...Cryptic would still get their money from the ZEN angle, but it would allow folks that didn't want to go that route or have been watching the D:Z exchange going up and up to try to find another means to pay for their upgrades...while again, Cryptic would still be getting their ZEN in the end.
Example:
Fleet Avenger / Mogh.
- what happens if it was bough entirely for fleet modules?
- what if there was already a discount because people bought the non-fleet Avenger/Mogh in the ZEN Store?
Fleet Ships were already some kind of T5 Upgrade ships.
Kinda Tier 5+, 5.5 in a way due to their 10th console slot like lockbox/lobi ships.
- The "5U" upgrade is account wide, so would I have to upgrade my Fleet Avenger/Mogh as well after upgrading the default Avengers/Moghs used by my alts, too?
Well, I think the idea is to get people to buy the new ships. I'm guessing they are probably planning on asking more than the $25 a pop the T5 ones are going for, or at least the same price. They pretty much want a rush where all the regular players run out to pay top dollar for a new tier ship, as opposed to just keeping their current favorites, as frankly they already have an awesome selection of ships, and most iconic trek ships are already accounted for, along with almost every ship I can think of that aliens flew that a player might want. I mean cripes, players can fly Undine and Tholian ships even...
I think that's a big part of why people resent it, especially those of us who obtained "gambling game" ships of various types. Even if not strictly speaking required, nobody wants to be obsolete and people see this as Cryptic basically going around demanding money to keep playing at a competitive level and feeling cool.
Right now the big question of course comes down to whether Cryptic will compromise on the current system, and accept what is likely a smaller payday, or if they are going to call the community's complaints as bluster and stick to the current system expecting people to whine about it (as gamers do) but ultimately pay the money and keep playing. It's increasingly common in the game industry for companies to stop caring about reactions and what people say, as long as they get paid. I am hoping Cryptic doesn't go down that road, but it's quite possible, only time is going to tell.
For the most part I do not begrudge them making money, and yes, they doubtlessly expect to make money off the upcoming content expansion, how much money they make will of course influence what other content we get after this, and as an STO fan I'm hoping it does well. I do however think they are going about it the wrong way. Personally I think what Cryptic needs to do is at least give the Lobi/Lockbox/Pack ships full Tier 6 status, those are the ships held by the biggest game supporters anyway as the people with those paid into the game, or spend a lot of time accumulating resources to buy them from those that did (sometimes both). The T5U upgrade is fair for people with regular Z-store ships since those T5 ships *were* endgame but now that things have moved up common sense dictates they would be replaced just like Z-store ships with ranks below them. Cryptic should probably make it so the consoles from those ships can now be used with any ship, to match the logic of other lower tier Z-store ships, especially seeing as the value of the consoles will be what potentially allows them to still sell in the future.
With the T-6 ships Cryptic should of course rely on making them cool, as opposed to trying to force people to buy them entirely due to being needed upgrades. For example, if Cryptic wants me to give up my Voth ship, make a ship that I think is cooler than it is on it's own merits so I want to fly it, then time and resources permitting it gives me something to work towards, buy, or a combination of the two. However right now basically showing me a T6 ship on flow charts and saying "you want one of these because they are clearly better due to having these hybrid slots for specialist Boffs and an obtainable trait" doesn't impress me. Show me a ship I think will be more fun to fly, then we can talk. See, the way I spend money I figure dropping $25 of my entertainment budget for a ship I'm going to get 20 or more hours of enjoyment out of flying is reasonable (all I do right now is game, so a lot of my money goes to gaming, although that could change), and this also supports the game and allows more content to be created. On the other hand telling me I have to spend money and give up my current ships because otherwise I'll be behind the curve, that just slots me off. Right now you could give me a panty hose egg flying through space (actually that sort of appeared in Next Generation... all jokes aside) for all I know and I'm basically being told "fly this" because not doing it cuts into my options, not because I actually want to fly the bloody thing.
In short, Cryptic's game designers should be trying to wow me with how awesome their new ships are, not punish me with stats for daring to like other ships I went through a lot of effort for enough where I might want to keep them. The Voth Bulwark is a tough act to follow of course, but hey, who knows, maybe you can do it, but I shouldn't feel like I'm being beaten with a crowbar and forced into some 5U tier of second class citizens who are almost like real citizens, but don't have the perks (sort of like "You can live in Rome, but can't vote you bloody plebe")
Don't get me wrong, by the way...I have no doubt that Cryptic's going to monetize the Hell out of the Specialist BOFFs, the Starship Traits, and anything else they can..
edit: not related to the above, but I saw no need to bump my post count...but sheesh, the D:Z's up to 189:1 now - getting ready to hit 190:1.
What did they actually mean by extra BO slot? An entire new slot? Or just an extra position on the heretofore Cmdr. slot? (presumably, your boffs can get promoted 1 rank too).
I have to admit, 1 entire boff slot less is quite a bit.