This has nothing to do with what I said. What I'm saying is that a Star Trek game should resemble Star Trek, you know that actual franchise the game is suposedly based on? Throughout the entire history of the shows, Starfleet has never utilized cloaking. They're the white knights of the franchise, the ones that don't feel the need to hide and work from the shadows, the straightforward ones.
You try to interpret your wishfull thinking as hard facts in terms of how the Federation would react if it saw the destruction of the RSE (which is BTW not destroyed, at least not yet). How about Aennik Okeg, that Saurian dude that's suposed to be the President of the Federation and just got re-elected? How about his clear statement that the Federation doesn't consider the treaty void and that as a political way of extending a hand of friendship they'd adhere to the treaty even though there's turmoil in the RSE?
Or are we just going to ingore that part because it doesn't further your agenda as oposed to facts squeezed out of thin air about how the Federation would react to this, because you said so. :rolleyes:
I just love it how people think that this game based on an established franchise with basic ground rules should mold to their own whims, or should I even say utter player incompetence.
A Star Trek game should resemble the shows at all time, because that's what makes it Star Trek. There's waaay to many "but it's 2410, blah, blah" going on around here. SW:ToR is set 3000 years before the movies and the game still looks and feels 100% Star Wars.
Let's say a company makes a "Star Trek" game set in the 35-th century and they change everything - Starfleet Officers wear camouflage uniforms, we use tanks and battlemechs for gorund combat, we ceased using energy weapons because the Borg adapt so we use machine guns, the ships look like Matrix meets Mass Effect......so how's that game Star Trek, eh? Catch my drift yet? Because that's what some of you guys want to turn the game into. If you don't like Star Trek within it's established ground rules, just stop playing the game and stop the infernal whining already.
This. A thousand times.
Also, the instances in Star Trek where Starfleet used cloaking devices were exceptions. ONLY the USS Defiant (Defiant Class) had a cloak, it was a single device which was lost with her destruction. ONLY the Enterprise-D in AGT could cloak, since Riker pimped that ship (and that timeline ended right there. But even if STO would continue this timeline (which happened in my personal headcanon and characters), it was still only the Ent-D. And we all know what happened with the illegal phasing cloak experiment on the Phoenix.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Also, the instances in Star Trek where Starfleet used cloaking devices were exceptions. ONLY the USS Defiant (Defiant Class) had a cloak, it was a single device which was lost with her destruction. ONLY the Enterprise-D in AGT could cloak, since Riker pimped that ship (and that timeline ended right there. But even if STO would continue this timeline (which happened in my personal headcanon and characters), it was still only the Ent-D. And we all know what happened with the illegal phasing cloak experiment on the Phoenix.
Exactly. The feds do not get wide-spread cloaking. For them it is a rare thing and only used on a few ships.
As it should be to remain true to the Intectual Property.
Exactly. The feds do not get wide-spread cloaking. For them it is a rare thing and only used on a few ships.
As it should be to remain true to the Intectual Property.
There's no point in getting your underoos in a bunch.
They'll get their cloaks and it'll be sufficiently OP.
With PvP rotting in a shallow grave, it won't matter anyway.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
I do understand that some want the STO to be true to the Star trek story line..which is a good thing....but even the "makers" sometimes veered away....say the Galaxy-X cruiser with cloak is from a alternate time line, but now a STO ship, while the Phasing Cloaking Device is from the timeline, used in secrecy wrongfully, but gone to Federations Storage (area 51:P:D) or with Sect 31... As for the cloak available to the Fed due to new Rom agreement, I assume these cloaks are from the Roms, if not..why not a unique Fed cloak for certain ships(Phasing Cloaking Device)....but even the Star Trek story line and STO has kinks to each other.....The Terran empire have cloaks due to Quark, so technically the Mirror Terran ships should be outfitted with cloaks and the Mirror Klinks ships have no Cloaks...due to the Klinks lost the cloak to the Terran empire....
But will See with the T6 ships and new Season....
It seems nothing is exactly according to Storyline...but it is a fun game
As for the Treaty of Algeron, well ...The President said peace...There shall be Peace.
For the love of Trek! The anti-Fed-cloak people are the ones who need to get a grip here and the o es who apparently never watched Star Trek.
As Smirk said, the treaty applies to the Romulan Star Empire and they aren't around anymore. However, even when they were the Feds used cloaks when they thought they could get away with it. I lost count of the number of times that Sisko used the cloak in the Alpha quadrant BEFORE the Romulans joined the alliance against the Dominion. In some cases someone on the ship mentioned the treaty violation and he would just blow it off.
That is also the canon of how Starfleet thinks and acts with regard to the treaty. If the Fed witnessed the DESTRUCTION of the Romulan Star Empire and goes to war with the Klingons you can bet we would embrace cloaking tech. That is also canon. Because in the finale of TNG when Picard jumps into the future when the Fed is at war with the KDF and the RSE is history we saw the Enterprise using a cloaking device.
In STO we regularly violate what used to be the Romulan neutral zone while warping around. If that isn't a violation of the treaty then neither is the use of cloaking devices.
As for the "Path to 2409" they were working on an experimental cloaking device (for all we know, it could have been the 2.0 version of the phase cloak)....so not really indicative of the Federation's overall cloaking technology.
The Federation was advanced enough to have personal cloaking suits and generators that could cloak small, stationary structures. So there's a precedent for their cloaking tech being advanced enough to not blow up in their faces when they turn it on.
The Defiant was a special exception to the treaty, exclusive to THE Defiant, not all defiants. The Valiant, for instance, lacked such a device. The second Defiant (Sao Paulo) did not get a replacement Cloaking Device...so there isn't really an excuse for there being any Fed ships with cloaking devices.
For some inexplicable reason the Federation has decided to ignore the treaty in regards to specific ship classes. IMO it's about time we start being able to use the cloaking device console on other ships.
the first phase cloak DID work. sorry there is no logical reason for the fed to not have cloaks anymore. THat pres who banned them in the path to 2409 did it while there was technically an RSE around and no war with the KDF. By 2410 he is likely out of office and the war with the KDF and the formation of the Romulan Republic further changed things.
So we can agree here that the treaty no longer applies, that it's no longer a standing issue, that the federation and starfleet should it desire to do so can pursue cloaking technology of any sort at its discretion. So we can agree that T6 ships for the federation could indeed have access to this technology and it not be against lore.
So then can we also agree that there is nothing to stop the Klingons from equipping all the ships in their fleet with their 117 year old cloaking technology that lets them shoot while cloaked? Are we ok with that as well? Are we willing to let the argument that 'nothing is stopping them' apply to both the Federation and the Klingons? Because if at T6 the Federation gain an advantage of phasing cloak, then because game balance is important, the Klingons need to gain something as well. So do the Romulans, which I can only venture to guess would be Thalaron in nature. Are we willing to accept the potential can of worms that giving the Feds a phasing cloak could be in order to maintain game balance?
Wasn't it Gene Roddenberry that said something like: "The Federation doesn't sneak around".
Essentially, the Federation is supposed to be an Utopian, positive society. They are the good guys.
They don't use cloak, certainly not on a large scale, because anyone knows that cloak can be easily used offensively, and makes people distrustful of a political entity that promotes peace, freedom and cooperation. If the Federation is willing to sacrifice trust for a plain military advantage, how do you convince people that it's really just for "peaceful exploration"?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
So we can agree here that the treaty no longer applies, that it's no longer a standing issue, that the federation and starfleet should it desire to do so can pursue cloaking technology of any sort at its discretion. So we can agree that T6 ships for the federation could indeed have access to this technology and it not be against lore.
So then can we also agree that there is nothing to stop the Klingons from equipping all the ships in their fleet with their 117 year old cloaking technology that lets them shoot while cloaked? Are we ok with that as well? Are we willing to let the argument that 'nothing is stopping them' apply to both the Federation and the Klingons? Because if at T6 the Federation gain an advantage of phasing cloak, then because game balance is important, the Klingons need to gain something as well. So do the Romulans, which I can only venture to guess would be Thalaron in nature. Are we willing to accept the potential can of worms that giving the Feds a phasing cloak could be in order to maintain game balance?
Fun thing about that console is you can fire energy weapons when phased cloaked and untargetable too bad it has a 3min cd otherwise it would be every terribad player/greifers dream console.
Just pick target - fire and cannot be targeted in return :P
Wasn't it Gene Roddenberry that said something like: "The Federation doesn't sneak around".
Essentially, the Federation is supposed to be an Utopian, positive society. They are the good guys.
They don't use cloak, certainly not on a large scale, because anyone knows that cloak can be easily used offensively, and makes people distrustful of a political entity that promotes peace, freedom and cooperation. If the Federation is willing to sacrifice trust for a plain military advantage, how do you convince people that it's really just for "peaceful exploration"?
well Gene wasn't always right. and even the most peacful of powers will need to sneak around at times.
well Gene wasn't always right. and even the most peacful of powers will need to sneak around at times.
Maybe it would be very convenient if they could, but they still can't?
Starfleet has advanced sensor technology - maybe they should use that. Or maybe they should ask their allies for help? The Romulan Republic and the Klingon Empire uses cloak. This would also reinforce to everyone that the Federation relies on cooperation, both internally and externally.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It covers the lot from 2379 to 2404 when the Ent-E was lost, by which point the Fed/KDF war had already been running for a year.
The Treaty still applies because A) the RSE still exists, even if it was gone the RR replaces it, and C) The Federation still agrees to it even if neither state existed.
Maybe it would be very convenient if they could, but they still can't?
Starfleet has advanced sensor technology - maybe they should use that. Or maybe they should ask their allies for help? The Romulan Republic and the Klingon Empire uses cloak. This would also reinforce to everyone that the Federation relies on cooperation, both internally and externally.
It covers the lot from 2379 to 2404 when the Ent-E was lost, by which point the Fed/KDF war had already been running for a year.
The Treaty still applies because A) the RSE still exists, even if it was gone the RR replaces it, and C) The Federation still agrees to it even if neither state existed.
SO NO FED CLOAKS. Not even on a Defiant or Gal-X.
Guys. The Pegasus proved fed can cloak and only atreaty prevented it. that treaty is NULL AND VOID.
It covers the lot from 2379 to 2404 when the Ent-E was lost, by which point the Fed/KDF war had already been running for a year.
The Treaty still applies because A) the RSE still exists, even if it was gone the RR replaces it, and C) The Federation still agrees to it even if neither state existed.
SO NO FED CLOAKS. Not even on a Defiant or Gal-X.
Sorry the Defiant and Gal-X (defiant was a special case since it was fitted with a romulan cloak provided by the romulans). Gal-X well if they didn't have it, people would go ape TRIBBLE.
You're not going to win the fight on the Gal-X or definat not having cloaks.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Sorry the Defiant and Gal-X (defiant was a special case since it was fitted with a romulan cloak provided by the romulans). Gal-X well if they didn't have it, people would go ape TRIBBLE.
You're not going to win the fight on the Gal-X or definat not having cloaks.
Technically the Gal-X existed in an alternative timeline that no longer exists. Also, the Defiant's cloak was only meant for Gamma Quadrant use, but that was dropped almost as quickly as the Romulan meant to be with it.
And yes, you couldn't win that fight - doesn't make it right.
And? So did the U.S.S. Kelso, which had a cloak, got blown up and got 6 officers court martialled for using a cloak.
The Treaty is valid.
The Kelso blew up in 2487, and the agreement was with Praetor Taris, who was replaced by Sela, who has gone missing. Whatever the Federation's position with Taris was, there was definitely a different position going on in regards to Sela, considering the Federation (and the RSE) were actively violating the Neutral zone all over the place, to the point of potentially invading RSE planets and attacking the Empress's flagship. And post-Sela? I'm not sure the Federation even considers them a relevant political entity any more. (as much as I wish they were)
At any rate, the Avenger is a 2409 design, as is the cloaking device console, so it's obvious that the Federation has revised their position since the Kelso incident in 2487.
Stardates can be a bit inconsistent, but fact of the matter is, the Federation authorized cloaking devices on ships after the treaty and don't seem to have any qualms about continuing to use them.
EDIT: instead of going by confusing stardates which I messed up, since "Path to 2409" is in chronological order, we know the agreement was during or before 2396.
Seems like the new breed of Federation officers just want to ignore directives from the Federation President.....
guess everyone wants to be Kirk :cool:
but you have given them a great idea to get your money with the next lockbox.....
Federation Adapted Kar'Fi phased battlecloak
*30sec cd toggle[improved over Kar'fis 3min cd]
*places the ship out of phase and untargetable
*unable to launch hanger pets or fire projectile weapons, Energy weapons can be used while in phase state
*Can be used on any Federation alliance ship but uses 1 - console slot
*since the Federation improvement to make it a toggle ability vs a 1 use then cooldown players are encouraged to slot all energy weapons and remain in a phased state to destroy the enemies of the Alliance[oops I mean Starfleet] while conducting exploration missions.
Any and all resistance to Starfleet peaceful exploration missions shall be terminated with extreme prejudice.
Seems like the new breed of Federation officers just want to ignore directives from the Federation President.....
guess everyone wants to be Kirk :cool:
but you have given them a great idea to get your money with the next lockbox.....
Federation Adapted Kar'Fi phased battlecloak
*30sec cd toggle[improved over Kar'fis 3min cd]
*places the ship out of phase and untargetable
*unable to launch hanger pets or fire projectile weapons, Energy weapons can be used while in phase state
*Can be used on any Federation alliance ship but uses 1 - console slot
*since the Federation improvement to make it a toggle ability vs a 1 use then cooldown players are encouraged to slot all energy weapons and remain in a phased state to destroy the enemies of the Alliance[oops I mean Starfleet] while conducting exploration missions.
Any and all resistance to Starfleet peaceful exploration missions shall be terminated with extreme prejudice.
actually lore leaves it open. the path is outdated since it's before legacy of Romulus
Not really, nothing in the game invalidates the path, you have Sela at Khitomer.
At most LoR just changed "Romulans" to "Tal Shiar" in some missions, the Romulan Star Empire have not ceased to exist and neither have it stop being recognized by both the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets.
Also arguments that the agreement was Taris is absurd, this is like saying the United States every time it changes head of states have to sign every treaty again, the Treaty of Algeron is still in effect since the Romulan Star Empire have not ceased to exist as a legal entity.
Federation ships should not cloak, handling cloaks to everything would serious upset even more the balance of the game even if the Cloak is pretty much a one-trick pony not worth the console slot its not something that should be given out like candy.
Last time I checked Obama didn't rise to power through a coup, so I don't think that comparison is accurate at all.
Path to 2409 already has the Federation ignoring that treaty both in regards to violating the Neutral zone and using cloaking technology years after the agreement with Taris. The Cloaking device console we have was developed in 2409, as was the Avenger Class....years after the agreement with Taris was made. There's obviously been a policy shift since then.
The Republic is a breakaway government and is in no real position to make such a demand from the Federation, considering the lopsided benefits they already get from the alliance (including the right to use Thalaron weapons openly without interference)
Using cloaks on Fed ships is hardly 'given out like candy'. As has been pointed out before, it uses up a precious console slot, and only gives 'normal' cloaking, not Battle Cloaking. It would hardly upset balance, as honestly there are far better uses for that console slot at the moment, like a Mk XII Fleet Neutronium console (or soon to be, Mk XIV).
Romulan Battle cloaks are the ones beign given out like candy...standard across all ships with higher damage bonuses, and access to Reman and Romulan Boffs that drastically improve the performance of their cloaks...without the hull strength penalty that KDF ships get to my knowledge.
As for content in-game that contradicts the Path to 2409, keep in mind that the same Sela we are talking about here was framed for murder, tried I na kangaroo court, almost executed, and exiled thanks to the Tal Shiar, she hates the Tal Shiar....or did until LoR, because now she's buddied up with the Tal Shiar to the point of having her second in command be Tal Shiar and disbanding the military and replacing them with one consisting entirely of Tal Shiar....so there's some inconsistency there.
Comments
This. A thousand times.
Also, the instances in Star Trek where Starfleet used cloaking devices were exceptions. ONLY the USS Defiant (Defiant Class) had a cloak, it was a single device which was lost with her destruction. ONLY the Enterprise-D in AGT could cloak, since Riker pimped that ship (and that timeline ended right there. But even if STO would continue this timeline (which happened in my personal headcanon and characters), it was still only the Ent-D. And we all know what happened with the illegal phasing cloak experiment on the Phoenix.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Exactly. The feds do not get wide-spread cloaking. For them it is a rare thing and only used on a few ships.
As it should be to remain true to the Intectual Property.
R.I.P
There's no point in getting your underoos in a bunch.
They'll get their cloaks and it'll be sufficiently OP.
With PvP rotting in a shallow grave, it won't matter anyway.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
But will See with the T6 ships and new Season....
It seems nothing is exactly according to Storyline...but it is a fun game
As for the Treaty of Algeron, well ...The President said peace...There shall be Peace.
This. All of this.
the first phase cloak DID work. sorry there is no logical reason for the fed to not have cloaks anymore. THat pres who banned them in the path to 2409 did it while there was technically an RSE around and no war with the KDF. By 2410 he is likely out of office and the war with the KDF and the formation of the Romulan Republic further changed things.
Here is my proposal based on OP's idea :
T6 Federation-Romulan Phased Cloak project
So then can we also agree that there is nothing to stop the Klingons from equipping all the ships in their fleet with their 117 year old cloaking technology that lets them shoot while cloaked? Are we ok with that as well? Are we willing to let the argument that 'nothing is stopping them' apply to both the Federation and the Klingons? Because if at T6 the Federation gain an advantage of phasing cloak, then because game balance is important, the Klingons need to gain something as well. So do the Romulans, which I can only venture to guess would be Thalaron in nature. Are we willing to accept the potential can of worms that giving the Feds a phasing cloak could be in order to maintain game balance?
*facepalm*
Wasn't it Gene Roddenberry that said something like: "The Federation doesn't sneak around".
Essentially, the Federation is supposed to be an Utopian, positive society. They are the good guys.
They don't use cloak, certainly not on a large scale, because anyone knows that cloak can be easily used offensively, and makes people distrustful of a political entity that promotes peace, freedom and cooperation. If the Federation is willing to sacrifice trust for a plain military advantage, how do you convince people that it's really just for "peaceful exploration"?
This. All of this.
Fun thing about that console is you can fire energy weapons when phased cloaked and untargetable too bad it has a 3min cd otherwise it would be every terribad player/greifers dream console.
Just pick target - fire and cannot be targeted in return :P
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
well Gene wasn't always right. and even the most peacful of powers will need to sneak around at times.
Maybe it would be very convenient if they could, but they still can't?
Starfleet has advanced sensor technology - maybe they should use that. Or maybe they should ask their allies for help? The Romulan Republic and the Klingon Empire uses cloak. This would also reinforce to everyone that the Federation relies on cooperation, both internally and externally.
It covers the lot from 2379 to 2404 when the Ent-E was lost, by which point the Fed/KDF war had already been running for a year.
The Treaty still applies because A) the RSE still exists,
SO NO FED CLOAKS. Not even on a Defiant or Gal-X.
Guys. The Pegasus proved fed can cloak and only atreaty prevented it. that treaty is NULL AND VOID.
And? So did the U.S.S. Kelso, which had a cloak, got blown up and got 6 officers court martialled for using a cloak.
The Treaty is valid.
Sorry the Defiant and Gal-X (defiant was a special case since it was fitted with a romulan cloak provided by the romulans). Gal-X well if they didn't have it, people would go ape TRIBBLE.
You're not going to win the fight on the Gal-X or definat not having cloaks.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Technically the Gal-X existed in an alternative timeline that no longer exists. Also, the Defiant's cloak was only meant for Gamma Quadrant use, but that was dropped almost as quickly as the Romulan meant to be with it.
And yes, you couldn't win that fight - doesn't make it right.
None of that means an STO universe Gal-X is allowed to cloak when the Federation forbid cloaks.
At any rate, the Avenger is a 2409 design, as is the cloaking device console, so it's obvious that the Federation has revised their position since the Kelso incident in 2487.
Stardates can be a bit inconsistent, but fact of the matter is, the Federation authorized cloaking devices on ships after the treaty and don't seem to have any qualms about continuing to use them.
EDIT: instead of going by confusing stardates which I messed up, since "Path to 2409" is in chronological order, we know the agreement was during or before 2396.
In game Lore says otherwise.
Now you can choose to ignore it but it is there.
Seems like the new breed of Federation officers just want to ignore directives from the Federation President.....
guess everyone wants to be Kirk :cool:
but you have given them a great idea to get your money with the next lockbox.....
Federation Adapted Kar'Fi phased battlecloak
*30sec cd toggle[improved over Kar'fis 3min cd]
*places the ship out of phase and untargetable
*unable to launch hanger pets or fire projectile weapons, Energy weapons can be used while in phase state
*Can be used on any Federation alliance ship but uses 1 - console slot
*since the Federation improvement to make it a toggle ability vs a 1 use then cooldown players are encouraged to slot all energy weapons and remain in a phased state to destroy the enemies of the Alliance[oops I mean Starfleet] while conducting exploration missions.
Any and all resistance to Starfleet peaceful exploration missions shall be terminated with extreme prejudice.
actually lore leaves it open. the path is outdated since it's before legacy of Romulus
Path to 2409 already has the Federation ignoring that treaty both in regards to violating the Neutral zone and using cloaking technology years after the agreement with Taris. The Cloaking device console we have was developed in 2409, as was the Avenger Class....years after the agreement with Taris was made. There's obviously been a policy shift since then.
The Republic is a breakaway government and is in no real position to make such a demand from the Federation, considering the lopsided benefits they already get from the alliance (including the right to use Thalaron weapons openly without interference)
Using cloaks on Fed ships is hardly 'given out like candy'. As has been pointed out before, it uses up a precious console slot, and only gives 'normal' cloaking, not Battle Cloaking. It would hardly upset balance, as honestly there are far better uses for that console slot at the moment, like a Mk XII Fleet Neutronium console (or soon to be, Mk XIV).
Romulan Battle cloaks are the ones beign given out like candy...standard across all ships with higher damage bonuses, and access to Reman and Romulan Boffs that drastically improve the performance of their cloaks...without the hull strength penalty that KDF ships get to my knowledge.
As for content in-game that contradicts the Path to 2409, keep in mind that the same Sela we are talking about here was framed for murder, tried I na kangaroo court, almost executed, and exiled thanks to the Tal Shiar, she hates the Tal Shiar....or did until LoR, because now she's buddied up with the Tal Shiar to the point of having her second in command be Tal Shiar and disbanding the military and replacing them with one consisting entirely of Tal Shiar....so there's some inconsistency there.