None of that has any relevance at all - RSE still exists, and just another Fed/KDF war changes absolutely nothing.
AGT as a timeline does not exist, it was only one of many possible ones, and is no longer possible.
But as you are unable to read an opposing correct view, and keep ignoring the fact the Federation intends to stick to the Treaty, I CBFA to put up with you any more.
The RSE does not exist anymore. did you see them represented at the Dyson sphere? No they weren't their because it doesn't formally exist anymore as a power. It is now in essence the Tal Shair and are now in the same area that the Maquis were in before DW. and also the simple fact that info on a console contradicts what the pres order YEARS before the war shows a change. Yes the exact timeline of AGT can nolonger happen since E-D is gone. the the core senerio is there. Till the last episode the fed and the KDF at war. the RSE all but gone with a fledgling Romulan Republic there instead. over half of what we saw in AGT has happened in one way or another. Thus feds having cloaks is possible.
TRIBBLE it, give the Federation integrated Enhanced battlecloaks on Everything, six console slots per position, all universals, impulse of 4.5 and turn-rates of 30 to 40 base, extra deflectors, and an "I Win" button.
an ya know what? Most fed captains will still be wanting MORE STUFF.
especially if it's stuff the other factions have, and they don't completely dominate having.
dude at the very least i want all currently cloakable ships have integrated cloaks like the KDF AND THE RR.
TRIBBLE it, give the Federation integrated Enhanced battlecloaks on Everything, six console slots per position, all universals, impulse of 4.5 and turn-rates of 30 to 40 base, extra deflectors, and an "I Win" button.
an ya know what? Most fed captains will still be wanting MORE STUFF.
especially if it's stuff the other factions have, and they don't completely dominate having.
Dang it, Patrickngo I told you we're not supposed to give out the stats for the new T6 fed cruiser yet. :P
Wether or not Starfleet could have developed cloak is only a secondary point in all this, honestly. Because the first and foremost argument overrides the lore: Faction idendity and IP recognition.
I mentioned it before, do you argue that Jedi Knights in Star Wars should use guns because of the range advantage? After all, you see a lot get shot in the movies, it would be stupid to not use guns, right? No, you wouldn't want that, because Jedi and even Sith do not use guns. Now, there might be one or two odd exceptions, especially in the games which allow for such practices so YOU can be that one oddity if you so desire, but that doesn't mean the Jedi order generally starts to accept gunplay.
STO is the same. You, as a player, can use cloaks on ships that were shown to cloak in the shows, because those were one-off oddities. As a "tribute" to those, the player can use a cloak - in the case of Starfleet a console cloak because it is always this one loan cloak you are isntalling on a ship which was NOT build around the possibility to use a cloak. The Avenger even doesn't come with a cloak on it's own, it just can fit the loan console. Further, Starfleet NPC ships (the "grunt fleet") cannot cloak. It is because there is only a single ship in Starfleet able to cloak - the one oddity you as a player use.
Why? Because Starfleet does not use cloaks, period. The IP was written this way. The military arm of Starfleet is a peacekeeping force, not a military like we have today. They show presence in brightly coloured starships even if this is a tactical disadvantage because it is a fictional universe.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You guys Had them, you hounded the developers into making it a console so you could get an extra console slot because cloak is next to useless in PVE. Do you want to go back to that-lose a slot so you can have a cloak you never use?
That is what you had before.
but, see...here's what I see..
Let's say Geko gives you what you say you want...
it's still going to be inferior to the Romulan ships-by intent-the Romulan stuff was intentionally buffed beyond reason to sell Legacy of Romulus gear and jumpstart participation.
You're going to shift from wahhnting integrated cloak, to Integrated Battle-Cloaking...and let's say you get that...and don't lose any consoles or hull or shield mods or have to deal with sub optimal bridge layouts or the rest...
well, next, you'll want integrated Enhanced Battle Cloaking. "It's the 25th Century! the Klingons had it in the 23rd, and the Federation is SMAARRRTERRR!!!"
so then, you'll get that. After all that, you'll start lobbying to have the new enhanced EBC (improved type) on every ship with four or more tac consoles.
Then, you'll start wanting raider buff on your Defiants and Patrol Escorts with their super-enhanced Federation Battlecloaks...
and it will go on.
and on.
and on.
and on.
It might not be YOU specifically, you might stop at just re-integrating cloaking into the Defiant, but it will be someone. And they'll use all the same arguments, only for one more notch up in power.
all because as a Fed, you don't want to roll a Klink, or a Romulan, but you want all their goodies plus yours.
Fed players in STO...in a single post.
This, I agree with.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
You guys Had them, you hounded the developers into making it a console so you could get an extra console slot because cloak is next to useless in PVE. Do you want to go back to that-lose a slot so you can have a cloak you never use?
That is what you had before.
but, see...here's what I see..
Let's say Geko gives you what you say you want...
it's still going to be inferior to the Romulan ships-by intent-the Romulan stuff was intentionally buffed beyond reason to sell Legacy of Romulus gear and jumpstart participation.
You're going to shift from wahhnting integrated cloak, to Integrated Battle-Cloaking...and let's say you get that...and don't lose any consoles or hull or shield mods or have to deal with sub optimal bridge layouts or the rest...
well, next, you'll want integrated Enhanced Battle Cloaking. "It's the 25th Century! the Klingons had it in the 23rd, and the Federation is SMAARRRTERRR!!!"
so then, you'll get that. After all that, you'll start lobbying to have the new enhanced EBC (improved type) on every ship with four or more tac consoles.
Then, you'll start wanting raider buff on your Defiants and Patrol Escorts with their super-enhanced Federation Battlecloaks...
and it will go on.
and on.
and on.
and on.
It might not be YOU specifically, you might stop at just re-integrating cloaking into the Defiant, but it will be someone. And they'll use all the same arguments, only for one more notch up in power.
all because as a Fed, you don't want to roll a Klink, or a Romulan, but you want all their goodies plus yours.
then they were STUPID Idiots. I came in late season 6 so can't be blamed for that. also the fed don't use cloak only because of a treaty. a treaty that is now null and void. That's the only reason Picard arrested the admiral becausde he violated treaty not because he used a cloak. Kirk was ordered to steal a cloak to study it and likely have Starfleet make their own. Defiant used one given to them by the RSE. SO YES STARFLEET USES CLOAKS!
then they were STUPID Idiots. I came in late season 6 so can't be blamed for that. also the fed don't use cloak only because of a treaty. a treaty that is now null and void.
Oh Lord! Is it really hard to understand?? The treaty is not null and void yet The freaking president of UFP said he would honor it still.
Yes, but that was awhile ago. It's just not fair that the Federation lacks jiggly-bit parity with the KDF; Mirror TOS uniforms are UP, please buff. Well, not "in the buff" like Betazoid wedding attire, but certainly more playable jiggly-bits for the Federation. :P
then they were STUPID Idiots. I came in late season 6 so can't be blamed for that. also the fed don't use cloak only because of a treaty. a treaty that is now null and void. That's the only reason Picard arrested the admiral becausde he violated treaty not because he used a cloak. Kirk was ordered to steal a cloak to study it and likely have Starfleet make their own. Defiant used one given to them by the RSE. SO YES STARFLEET USES CLOAKS!
Yes, the Federation uses cloaks, and the executive order Oleg signed cleverly fails to mention the use or purchase of cloaking technology from outside parties. What the Federation specifically does not do is participate in the...
"The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed," Okeg said. "The Romulan Star Empire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federation's commitment to peace."
...which is reflected by the Federation making peace with the Klingon Empire. The Federation exists as the "good guys", not the folks that take every opportunity to better their own position at the expense of their allies. While rogue elements may violate treaties, the Federation as a whole does not, nor does it ignore executive orders signed by the President of the United Federation of Planets.
[SPOILERS from Surface Tension] If they weren't such "STUPID Idiots" they would have taken the opportunity to allow the Klingon Empire and Undine to annihilate each other in orbit over Qo'nos before coming in and mopping up the surviving (and already damaged) combat vessels on both sides. With no survivors to say otherwise, they could then have released records of the aftermath of the Undine Planet Killer's attack and their "rescue operations" against the remaining Undine vessels, then offered "protection and support" to any survivors outside the Qo'nos System, specifically the Klingon Empire's surviving allied species. Even better, removing the Klingon homeworld from the equation would have left the fledgling Romulan Republic without an alternative source of military assistance and colonization supplies, allowing the Federation to scoop up the Romulan Republic as well. Reunification made easy. "STUPID" Federation always has to save people... it sucks being the "good guys".
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
I find this line of replies sadly hilarious. We put a lot of work into the massive list of fixes/changes above, and ya'll are hung up on the ability to skip our content. =p
Not sure why people see cloak as a "offensive combat" item. Stealth is the most powerful Defensive system. The ability to hide weakness and show strength to overt war is a major point of stealth, its there to save lives such as hiding civilian ships. The ability to keep other powers from knowing your fleet dispositions and to make them more hesitant on attacking. The ability to threaten counter attacks any where in a enemy territory forcing them to commit a large part of there military on defensive counters thus weakening there offensive fighting force. the ability to hide and scout enemy and being able to let them know you know what there up to taking away there "surprise build up" to force a diplomatic solution. All these things help prevent conflict.
Stealth is not a aggressive item.. if anything its more defensive then anything in combat. Even while on the "attack" its still primary role of it is defensive. For some reason Stealth has been spun in to "only the aggressors use stealth" and its just not so.
As far as the president of the Federation signing a executive order.. well if its anything like the US government that should be able to be over ruled by a majority vote from the Federation counsel. With all the ships lost over decades of constant war... you would think by now there would be a new president controlling the Federation. One that is putting the lives of its defending force over a treaty to a wiped out Empire and putting the lives of Federation civilians and Star Fleet above a treaty that servers no purpose anymore.
Love to see a TV episode where Federation president try's to defend that policy to the thousands of dead civilians and Star fleet personals family's. Explain how a treaty to a dead Empire is worth more then there family members lives.
As far as the president of the Federation signing a executive order.. well if its anything like the US government that should be able to be over ruled by a majority vote from the Federation counsel. With all the ships lost over decades of constant war... you would think by now there would be a new president controlling the Federation. One that is putting the lives of its defending force over a treaty to a wiped out Empire and putting the lives of Federation civilians and Star Fleet above a treaty that servers no purpose anymore.
Love to see a TV episode where Federation president try's to defend that policy to the thousands of dead civilians and Star fleet personals family's. Explain how a treaty to a dead Empire is worth more then there family members lives.
Okeg has been reelected for the third time in 2405. He is still in office by 2410 and his order should still be in place. According to the rest, if you paid attention during any run of Star Trek you'd know that the UFP and Starfleet do not act pragmatic like that. In our real world, every government, hell every body of organization will immedeatly abandon it's principle for some kind of advantage. In Star Trek it's not supposed to. You know that every Starfleet captain swore an oath to destroy his ship and kill his entire crew before violating the principles of the UFP and Starfleet?
This is a cornerstone of the UFP. They are idealist, not pragmatic.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Not sure why people see cloak as a "offensive combat" item. Stealth is the most powerful Defensive system. The ability to hide weakness and show strength to overt war is a major point of stealth, its there to save lives such as hiding civilian ships. The ability to keep other powers from knowing your fleet dispositions and to make them more hesitant on attacking. The ability to threaten counter attacks any where in a enemy territory forcing them to commit a large part of there military on defensive counters thus weakening there offensive fighting force. the ability to hide and scout enemy and being able to let them know you know what there up to taking away there "surprise build up" to force a diplomatic solution. All these things help prevent conflict.
Stealth is not a aggressive item.. if anything its more defensive then anything in combat. Even while on the "attack" its still primary role of it is defensive. For some reason Stealth has been spun in to "only the aggressors use stealth" and its just not so.
As far as the president of the Federation signing a executive order.. well if its anything like the US government that should be able to be over ruled by a majority vote from the Federation counsel. With all the ships lost over decades of constant war... you would think by now there would be a new president controlling the Federation. One that is putting the lives of its defending force over a treaty to a wiped out Empire and putting the lives of Federation civilians and Star Fleet above a treaty that servers no purpose anymore.
Love to see a TV episode where Federation president try's to defend that policy to the thousands of dead civilians and Star fleet personals family's. Explain how a treaty to a dead Empire is worth more then there family members lives.
Maybe if the Federation had beleived its Klingon allies and respected Starfleet officers and not a later outted Undine infiltrator or reconsidered its position after numerous undine infiltrations of Starfleet was discovered by the player then all those countless lives wouldn't have been lost?
While the official Federation position was non-interference, not everyone in Starfleet agreed. On Stardate 78733.25, Captain Zachary MacAllister ignored a direct order from Starfleet Command and attempted to take the U.S.S. Lindberg into Gorn space.
He wanted to help the Gorn, reported Ensign Eswa Drex. Captain MacAllister kept saying that when the Klingons were through withthe Gorn, theyd attack the Federation next. And that we had to stop them before that could happen.
After a tense three days traveling through a war zone, the Lindberg was confronted by a Klingon patrol. MacAllister ordered his crew to open fire, but instead the first officer and chief medical officer attempted to remove MacAllister from duty and surrender the ship. There was a running firefight through the ship, as MacAllister and a few supporters attempted to escape capture.
MacAllister made it to a shuttle bay and escaped. He is still a fugitive.
A contingent of retired and current Starfleet officers, including Ambassador Worf, Admirals Beverly Crusher, Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay and retired Captains Ezri Dax and Tuvok appealed to the Federation Council to reconsider its position on the Klingon Gorn war.
The Undine threat is real, Admiral Chakotay told the Council. The Klingons know it. We should acknowledge it. Perhaps if we were helping them fight the Undine, more innocent people could be saved.
Theres a war coming, and it will be a long one.
Ambassador Sokketh of Vulcan led the opposition. While we acknowledge and are grateful for the service of these find Starfleet officers, the threat of the Undine is overstated, Sokketh says. Im sure, given time, that we will be able to come to a peaceful resolution with these observers from fluidic space.
After the council closed its session, Ambassador Worf resigned his position with the Federation and returned to QonoS for good.
Maybe if the Federation had beleived its Klingon allies and respected Starfleet officers and not a later outted Undine infiltrator or reconsidered its position after numerous undine infiltrations of Starfleet was discovered by the player then all those countless lives wouldn't have been lost?
The lore part you posted is an excellent example of how horrid STOs writing is. The main problem is that it follows VOY and ENT writing mantra to write each and every scene for an audience that has no knowledge of Star Trek whatsoever. This means character traits are used ad absurdum to draw clear lines. The Vulcan opposition towards the pleas with the reason of "coming to a peaceful solution with observers from fluidic space" is meant to introduce the concept of the peaceful UFP and stubborn Vulcans to a new audience, but it makes absolutely no sense. 8472 aren't even observers since they kill and replace people - Sokketh opposition is completely ilogical, especially with the knowledge they already HAVE about the matter. and just a really bad plot element, except we assume the whole council has been infiltrated which would again be very cheap writing, especially ince we see no follow up at the end of the current story arc. Also, I find it funny that the writers assume that every character we saw in the shows must be an Admiral by now. Since, you know, there is only one possiblity. If you are long enough around you are an Admiral. Dammit, reading the whole path to 2409 is almost rage inducing XD
Achh, it all makes so little sense, it's almost funny.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The RSE does not exist anymore. did you see them represented at the Dyson sphere? No they weren't their because it doesn't formally exist anymore as a power. It is now in essence the Tal Shair and are now in the same area that the Maquis were in before DW. and also the simple fact that info on a console contradicts what the pres order YEARS before the war shows a change. Yes the exact timeline of AGT can nolonger happen since E-D is gone. the the core senerio is there. Till the last episode the fed and the KDF at war. the RSE all but gone with a fledgling Romulan Republic there instead. over half of what we saw in AGT has happened in one way or another. Thus feds having cloaks is possible.
I did say I wouldn't bother, but that takes the biscuit, too rich to pass up.
RSE - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
If you want to say the RSE does not exist, you still need to find any evidence it does not - so far, you just keep posting the same old RSE is gone line, when A) The RSE is not gone, even if it was, the RR counts for a Romulan State, and C) the Federation is keeping to it on principle because they want to portray themselves as open and honest.
Also, it is Tal'Shiar and Marquis.
Cloaks on Defiant's and Gal-X's is a blatant money grabbing move - only an idiot couldn't see that. Not anything remotely resembling any sort of valid argument.
Most importantly, you continue to completely ignore the Federation's commitment to keep to the Treaty, which is more than enough reason to say:
Okeg has been reelected for the third time in 2405. He is still in office by 2410 and his order should still be in place. According to the rest, if you paid attention during any run of Star Trek you'd know that the UFP and Starfleet do not act pragmatic like that. In our real world, every government, hell every body of organization will immedeatly abandon it's principle for some kind of advantage. In Star Trek it's not supposed to. You know that every Starfleet captain swore an oath to destroy his ship and kill his entire crew before violating the principles of the UFP and Starfleet?
This is a cornerstone of the UFP. They are idealist, not pragmatic.
I did say I wouldn't bother, but that takes the biscuit, too rich to pass up.
RSE - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
If you want to say the RSE does not exist, you still need to find any evidence it does not - so far, you just keep posting the same old RSE is gone line, when A) The RSE is not gone, even if it was, the RR counts for a Romulan State, and C) the Federation is keeping to it on principle because they want to portray themselves as open and honest.
Also, it is Tal'Shiar and Marquis.
Cloaks on Defiant's and Gal-X's is a blatant money grabbing move - only an idiot couldn't see that. Not anything remotely resembling any sort of valid argument.
Most importantly, you continue to completely ignore the Federation's commitment to keep to the Treaty, which is more than enough reason to say:
FEDS ARE NOT GETTING CLOAKS.
okay who is leading the RSE? Why weren't they part of the conference? BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER A RECOGNIZE POWER!
The RR is a completely different power so different treaties involed with them. so unless Algeron was included, unlikely at this point Algeron is null and void.
also Okeg made that order why there was still an RSE around and peace with the KDF. Not long later fed and KDF went to war. midway through the campaign the RSE falls and the RR rises.
AT MINIMUM THE FED SHIP THAT ARE CLOAKABLE SHOULD HAVE INTIGRATED CLOAKS!
Maybe if the Federation had beleived its Klingon allies and respected Starfleet officers and not a later outted Undine infiltrator or reconsidered its position after numerous undine infiltrations of Starfleet was discovered by the player then all those countless lives wouldn't have been lost?
Oh you mean believe them like how they said that founders had taken over Cardasia when they in fact had not been taken over by the founders.. and that the KDF invasions of Cardasia in fact drove them to ally with the Dominion giving them a foot hold in a Alpha quadrant and causing a bloody war....... ya there is no reason at all why the Federation would be skeptical of the KDF in regards to the Undine.
Okeg has been reelected for the third time in 2405. He is still in office by 2410 and his order should still be in place. According to the rest, if you paid attention during any run of Star Trek you'd know that the UFP and Starfleet do not act pragmatic like that. In our real world, every government, hell every body of organization will immedeatly abandon it's principle for some kind of advantage. In Star Trek it's not supposed to. You know that every Starfleet captain swore an oath to destroy his ship and kill his entire crew before violating the principles of the UFP and Starfleet?
This is a cornerstone of the UFP. They are idealist, not pragmatic.
Oh really? So posting Starfleet soldiers on earth, declaring marshal law on earth was not being pragmatic with a perceived threat of changeling infiltrators? Designing the Defiant a Full combat warship to combat the for seen invasion of the Borg was not pragmatic?
Or countless times the Prime Directive was ignored because it was pragmatic to do so.. The mining the worm hole to stop Dominion ships there for starting a war was not a pragmatic action?
There are plenty of exsamples of UFP being pragmatic over there idealism...
okay who is leading the RSE? Why weren't they part of the conference? BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER A RECOGNIZE POWER!
The RR is a completely different power so different treaties involed with them. so unless Algeron was included, unlikely at this point Algeron is null and void.
also Okeg made that order why there was still an RSE around and peace with the KDF. Not long later fed and KDF went to war. midway through the campaign the RSE falls and the RR rises.
AT MINIMUM THE FED SHIP THAT ARE CLOAKABLE SHOULD HAVE INTIGRATED CLOAKS!
Again - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Try again. They are in difficulty yes, but they are not gone.
The RR, even if the RSE was gone, still counts as far as the Federation is concerned. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Another Fed/KDF war changes the square root of f**k all regarding Fed-cloaks. Never has, never will.
And will you, for once, not completely ignore the Federation's commitment to keep to the Treaty?
No Fed cloaks, and the Defiant and Gal-X should be stripped of theirs.
True, but then the writing suggests that *nobody* objects towards his behaviour. Infiltration stories always only need one guy whos attitude is never questioned (Which actually happened, I remember something along the lines of him not blending in with Vulcan's society and everybody got a "little suspecting", yet nobody questions his top tier diplomatic decissions )
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
True, but then the writing suggests that *nobody* objects towards his behaviour. Infiltration stories always only need one guy whos attitude is never questioned (Which actually happened, I remember something along the lines of him not blending in with Vulcan's society and everybody got a "little suspecting", yet nobody questions his top tier diplomatic decissions )
You expect Federation leadership to actually do something sensible? With its track record? Of course Sokketh would never be questioned.
Oh you mean believe them like how they said that founders had taken over Cardasia when they in fact had not been taken over by the founders.. and that the KDF invasions of Cardasia in fact drove them to ally with the Dominion giving them a foot hold in a Alpha quadrant and causing a bloody war....... ya there is no reason at all why the Federation would be skeptical of the KDF in regards to the Undine.
Hmmm I didn't not know these people were members of the KDF lobbying for Federation assistance against the undine infiltration?
A contingent of retired and current Starfleet officers, including Ambassador Worf, Admirals Beverly Crusher, Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay and retired Captains Ezri Dax and Tuvok appealed to the Federation Council to reconsider its position on the Klingon Gorn war.
The Undine threat is real, Admiral Chakotay told the Council. The Klingons know it. We should acknowledge it. Perhaps if we were helping them fight the Undine, more innocent people could be saved.
It only took the Federation roughly 9 years to admit they were wrong in the 1st place.
Again - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Try again. They are in difficulty yes, but they are not gone.
The RR, even if the RSE was gone, still counts as far as the Federation is concerned. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Another Fed/KDF war changes the square root of f**k all regarding Fed-cloaks. Never has, never will.
And will you, for once, not completely ignore the Federation's commitment to keep to the Treaty?
No Fed cloaks, and the Defiant and Gal-X should be stripped of theirs.
RR is a completely different power then the RSE thus Algeron doesn't count to them unless it was in the NEW treaty at Khitomer. alos again RSE is like True Way at this point.
and you forget AGT Fed and KDF were nearly at war then and guess what. THE E-D HAD A CLOAK!
RR is a completely different power then the RSE thus Algeron doesn't count to them unless it was in the NEW treaty at Khitomer. alos again RSE is like True Way at this point.
and you forget AGT Fed and KDF were nearly at war then and guess what. THE E-D HAD A CLOAK!
The Enterprise D did have a cloak in AGT. What's the point of this argument? Nobody is denying the Defiant and Enterprise D in AGT had a cloak. So how did they do the Cloaking device in AGT did they have it as a Console at the expense of one of their Science Consoles before it got refit for war?
We're not denying the Federation is capable of building a cloaking device. We're not even saying they can't build a Phasing Cloak.
We'll even ignore the Treaty of Algeron too, who cares if it's with the RSE, the RR or any other number of interested Parties.
What matters is quite simply this:
1> The President of the Federations third term in office ends in 2412.
2> The game in currently in the year 2410.
3> The President has stated that the Federation will not develop cloaking technology.
Is the President a Changling? Maybe an Undine? Perhaps he's a bored Q. Who knows, but until the game removes him from power or has him change his mind the Federation does not get Cloaks. I'm pretty sure CBS doesn't want the Federation having cloaking technology, their are 3 exceptions so far.
The Defiant (Tactical Escort) Refit and the Galaxy X have Cloaks because they are Hero ships from the TV Series. The Avenger can use a Cloak because it's basically a KDF Battle Cruiser in Fed Colours and because Money.
So the only reason you guys want a Federation Phase Cloak is to have more power in the game. So you don't have to Roll a Romulan or a Klingon and buy the ship that has the Phased Cloaking device on it which is way weaker than the I'm immune to everything button you guys want. Looking at the Phased cloaks already implemented in the game your asking for 10s at best of being immune with a 3 minute cooldown.
Actually that means the LRSVR (Intrepid Retrofit) pretty much has Phased Cloak on it. You can hit Mask Energy Signature and than activate the Ablative Armour Generator. OMG Voyager is so OP you guys!
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
The Enterprise D did have a cloak in AGT. What's the point of this argument? Nobody is denying the Defiant and Enterprise D in AGT had a cloak. So how did they do the Cloaking device in AGT did they have it as a Console at the expense of one of their Science Consoles before it got refit for war?
We're not denying the Federation is capable of building a cloaking device. We're not even saying they can't build a Phasing Cloak.
We'll even ignore the Treaty of Algeron too, who cares if it's with the RSE, the RR or any other number of interested Parties.
What matters is quite simply this:
1> The President of the Federations third term in office ends in 2412.
2> The game in currently in the year 2410.
3> The President has stated that the Federation will not develop cloaking technology.
Is the President a Changling? Maybe an Undine? Perhaps he's a bored Q. Who knows, but until the game removes him from power or has him change his mind the Federation does not get Cloaks. I'm pretty sure CBS doesn't want the Federation having cloaking technology, their are 3 exceptions so far.
The Defiant (Tactical Escort) Refit and the Galaxy X have Cloaks because they are Hero ships from the TV Series. The Avenger can use a Cloak because it's basically a KDF Battle Cruiser in Fed Colours and because Money.
So the only reason you guys want a Federation Phase Cloak is to have more power in the game. So you don't have to Roll a Romulan or a Klingon and buy the ship that has the Phased Cloaking device on it which is way weaker than the I'm immune to everything button you guys want. Looking at the Phased cloaks already implemented in the game your asking for 10s at best of being immune with a 3 minute cooldown.
Actually that means the LRSVR (Intrepid Retrofit) pretty much has Phased Cloak on it. You can hit Mask Energy Signature and than activate the Ablative Armour Generator. OMG Voyager is so OP you guys!
the issue it shouldn't BE a console. it should be integrated that the REST of the cloaks. And what proof is there that Okeg is still in office?
RR is a completely different power then the RSE thus Algeron doesn't count to them unless it was in the NEW treaty at Khitomer. alos again RSE is like True Way at this point.
and you forget AGT Fed and KDF were nearly at war then and guess what. THE E-D HAD A CLOAK!
And to the Federation, it does count - you keep ignoring that.
And the RSE is in a far better state than the True Way, the RSE still has a Navy, a Senate, a new homeworld of their own. They are not gone, they just have a power vacuum at the top thanks to Sela being taken by Iconians. (a situation fairly normal for the RSE, given its politics)
So? AGT is a different thing, and isn't happening anyway. Also, Riker never covered how he got a cloak - at best anything that can be said about it is speculation.
And to the Federation, it does count - you keep ignoring that.
And the RSE is in a far better state than the True Way, the RSE still has a Navy, a Senate, a new homeworld of their own. They are not gone, they just have a power vacuum at the top thanks to Sela being taken by Iconians. (a situation fairly normal for the RSE, given its politics)
So? AGT is a different thing, and isn't happening anyway. Also, Riker never covered how he got a cloak - at best anything that can be said about it is speculation.
Do we know they had a senate? Sela was an Empress.
Comments
The RSE does not exist anymore. did you see them represented at the Dyson sphere? No they weren't their because it doesn't formally exist anymore as a power. It is now in essence the Tal Shair and are now in the same area that the Maquis were in before DW. and also the simple fact that info on a console contradicts what the pres order YEARS before the war shows a change. Yes the exact timeline of AGT can nolonger happen since E-D is gone. the the core senerio is there. Till the last episode the fed and the KDF at war. the RSE all but gone with a fledgling Romulan Republic there instead. over half of what we saw in AGT has happened in one way or another. Thus feds having cloaks is possible.
dude at the very least i want all currently cloakable ships have integrated cloaks like the KDF AND THE RR.
Dang it, Patrickngo I told you we're not supposed to give out the stats for the new T6 fed cruiser yet. :P
I mentioned it before, do you argue that Jedi Knights in Star Wars should use guns because of the range advantage? After all, you see a lot get shot in the movies, it would be stupid to not use guns, right? No, you wouldn't want that, because Jedi and even Sith do not use guns. Now, there might be one or two odd exceptions, especially in the games which allow for such practices so YOU can be that one oddity if you so desire, but that doesn't mean the Jedi order generally starts to accept gunplay.
STO is the same. You, as a player, can use cloaks on ships that were shown to cloak in the shows, because those were one-off oddities. As a "tribute" to those, the player can use a cloak - in the case of Starfleet a console cloak because it is always this one loan cloak you are isntalling on a ship which was NOT build around the possibility to use a cloak. The Avenger even doesn't come with a cloak on it's own, it just can fit the loan console. Further, Starfleet NPC ships (the "grunt fleet") cannot cloak. It is because there is only a single ship in Starfleet able to cloak - the one oddity you as a player use.
Why? Because Starfleet does not use cloaks, period. The IP was written this way. The military arm of Starfleet is a peacekeeping force, not a military like we have today. They show presence in brightly coloured starships even if this is a tactical disadvantage because it is a fictional universe.
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Fed players in STO...in a single post.
This, I agree with.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
then they were STUPID Idiots. I came in late season 6 so can't be blamed for that. also the fed don't use cloak only because of a treaty. a treaty that is now null and void. That's the only reason Picard arrested the admiral becausde he violated treaty not because he used a cloak. Kirk was ordered to steal a cloak to study it and likely have Starfleet make their own. Defiant used one given to them by the RSE. SO YES STARFLEET USES CLOAKS!
Oh Lord! Is it really hard to understand?? The treaty is not null and void yet The freaking president of UFP said he would honor it still.
Stop making stuff up. The treaty expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation.
For study!! And the treaty itself was not in effect at that time with condition for use in the Gamma Quadrant only which Sisko actually willfully violated. with permission in the Gamma Quadrant and the rest were all VIOLATIONS!!!
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Orion playable species for Federation?
Yes, but that was awhile ago. It's just not fair that the Federation lacks jiggly-bit parity with the KDF; Mirror TOS uniforms are UP, please buff. Well, not "in the buff" like Betazoid wedding attire, but certainly more playable jiggly-bits for the Federation. :P
Yes, the Federation uses cloaks, and the executive order Oleg signed cleverly fails to mention the use or purchase of cloaking technology from outside parties. What the Federation specifically does not do is participate in the... ...because... ...which is reflected by the Federation making peace with the Klingon Empire. The Federation exists as the "good guys", not the folks that take every opportunity to better their own position at the expense of their allies. While rogue elements may violate treaties, the Federation as a whole does not, nor does it ignore executive orders signed by the President of the United Federation of Planets.
[SPOILERS from Surface Tension] If they weren't such "STUPID Idiots" they would have taken the opportunity to allow the Klingon Empire and Undine to annihilate each other in orbit over Qo'nos before coming in and mopping up the surviving (and already damaged) combat vessels on both sides. With no survivors to say otherwise, they could then have released records of the aftermath of the Undine Planet Killer's attack and their "rescue operations" against the remaining Undine vessels, then offered "protection and support" to any survivors outside the Qo'nos System, specifically the Klingon Empire's surviving allied species. Even better, removing the Klingon homeworld from the equation would have left the fledgling Romulan Republic without an alternative source of military assistance and colonization supplies, allowing the Federation to scoop up the Romulan Republic as well. Reunification made easy. "STUPID" Federation always has to save people... it sucks being the "good guys".
star trek armada & armada 2 romulan's shadow class ship....it had a phased cloak ability.....and shield neutralizer/drainer. heheh
totally wish STO could get that ship added in for romulans.....then that would be a reason to attempt Fed phasing technology.
Stealth is not a aggressive item.. if anything its more defensive then anything in combat. Even while on the "attack" its still primary role of it is defensive. For some reason Stealth has been spun in to "only the aggressors use stealth" and its just not so.
As far as the president of the Federation signing a executive order.. well if its anything like the US government that should be able to be over ruled by a majority vote from the Federation counsel. With all the ships lost over decades of constant war... you would think by now there would be a new president controlling the Federation. One that is putting the lives of its defending force over a treaty to a wiped out Empire and putting the lives of Federation civilians and Star Fleet above a treaty that servers no purpose anymore.
Love to see a TV episode where Federation president try's to defend that policy to the thousands of dead civilians and Star fleet personals family's. Explain how a treaty to a dead Empire is worth more then there family members lives.
Okeg has been reelected for the third time in 2405. He is still in office by 2410 and his order should still be in place. According to the rest, if you paid attention during any run of Star Trek you'd know that the UFP and Starfleet do not act pragmatic like that. In our real world, every government, hell every body of organization will immedeatly abandon it's principle for some kind of advantage. In Star Trek it's not supposed to. You know that every Starfleet captain swore an oath to destroy his ship and kill his entire crew before violating the principles of the UFP and Starfleet?
This is a cornerstone of the UFP. They are idealist, not pragmatic.
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Maybe if the Federation had beleived its Klingon allies and respected Starfleet officers and not a later outted Undine infiltrator or reconsidered its position after numerous undine infiltrations of Starfleet was discovered by the player then all those countless lives wouldn't have been lost?
The lore part you posted is an excellent example of how horrid STOs writing is. The main problem is that it follows VOY and ENT writing mantra to write each and every scene for an audience that has no knowledge of Star Trek whatsoever. This means character traits are used ad absurdum to draw clear lines. The Vulcan opposition towards the pleas with the reason of "coming to a peaceful solution with observers from fluidic space" is meant to introduce the concept of the peaceful UFP and stubborn Vulcans to a new audience, but it makes absolutely no sense. 8472 aren't even observers since they kill and replace people - Sokketh opposition is completely ilogical, especially with the knowledge they already HAVE about the matter. and just a really bad plot element, except we assume the whole council has been infiltrated which would again be very cheap writing, especially ince we see no follow up at the end of the current story arc. Also, I find it funny that the writers assume that every character we saw in the shows must be an Admiral by now. Since, you know, there is only one possiblity. If you are long enough around you are an Admiral. Dammit, reading the whole path to 2409 is almost rage inducing XD
Achh, it all makes so little sense, it's almost funny.
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I did say I wouldn't bother, but that takes the biscuit, too rich to pass up.
RSE - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
If you want to say the RSE does not exist, you still need to find any evidence it does not - so far, you just keep posting the same old RSE is gone line, when A) The RSE is not gone,
Also, it is Tal'Shiar and Marquis.
Cloaks on Defiant's and Gal-X's is a blatant money grabbing move - only an idiot couldn't see that. Not anything remotely resembling any sort of valid argument.
Most importantly, you continue to completely ignore the Federation's commitment to keep to the Treaty, which is more than enough reason to say:
FEDS ARE NOT GETTING CLOAKS.
okay who is leading the RSE? Why weren't they part of the conference? BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER A RECOGNIZE POWER!
The RR is a completely different power so different treaties involed with them. so unless Algeron was included, unlikely at this point Algeron is null and void.
also Okeg made that order why there was still an RSE around and peace with the KDF. Not long later fed and KDF went to war. midway through the campaign the RSE falls and the RR rises.
AT MINIMUM THE FED SHIP THAT ARE CLOAKABLE SHOULD HAVE INTIGRATED CLOAKS!
Oh you mean believe them like how they said that founders had taken over Cardasia when they in fact had not been taken over by the founders.. and that the KDF invasions of Cardasia in fact drove them to ally with the Dominion giving them a foot hold in a Alpha quadrant and causing a bloody war....... ya there is no reason at all why the Federation would be skeptical of the KDF in regards to the Undine.
Oh really? So posting Starfleet soldiers on earth, declaring marshal law on earth was not being pragmatic with a perceived threat of changeling infiltrators? Designing the Defiant a Full combat warship to combat the for seen invasion of the Borg was not pragmatic?
Or countless times the Prime Directive was ignored because it was pragmatic to do so.. The mining the worm hole to stop Dominion ships there for starting a war was not a pragmatic action?
There are plenty of exsamples of UFP being pragmatic over there idealism...
Again - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Try again. They are in difficulty yes, but they are not gone.
The RR, even if the RSE was gone, still counts as far as the Federation is concerned. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Another Fed/KDF war changes the square root of f**k all regarding Fed-cloaks. Never has, never will.
And will you, for once, not completely ignore the Federation's commitment to keep to the Treaty?
No Fed cloaks, and the Defiant and Gal-X should be stripped of theirs.
True, but then the writing suggests that *nobody* objects towards his behaviour. Infiltration stories always only need one guy whos attitude is never questioned
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You expect Federation leadership to actually do something sensible? With its track record? Of course Sokketh would never be questioned.
Hmmm I didn't not know these people were members of the KDF lobbying for Federation assistance against the undine infiltration?
It only took the Federation roughly 9 years to admit they were wrong in the 1st place.
RR is a completely different power then the RSE thus Algeron doesn't count to them unless it was in the NEW treaty at Khitomer. alos again RSE is like True Way at this point.
and you forget AGT Fed and KDF were nearly at war then and guess what. THE E-D HAD A CLOAK!
The Enterprise D did have a cloak in AGT. What's the point of this argument? Nobody is denying the Defiant and Enterprise D in AGT had a cloak. So how did they do the Cloaking device in AGT did they have it as a Console at the expense of one of their Science Consoles before it got refit for war?
We're not denying the Federation is capable of building a cloaking device. We're not even saying they can't build a Phasing Cloak.
We'll even ignore the Treaty of Algeron too, who cares if it's with the RSE, the RR or any other number of interested Parties.
What matters is quite simply this:
1> The President of the Federations third term in office ends in 2412.
2> The game in currently in the year 2410.
3> The President has stated that the Federation will not develop cloaking technology.
Is the President a Changling? Maybe an Undine? Perhaps he's a bored Q. Who knows, but until the game removes him from power or has him change his mind the Federation does not get Cloaks. I'm pretty sure CBS doesn't want the Federation having cloaking technology, their are 3 exceptions so far.
The Defiant (Tactical Escort) Refit and the Galaxy X have Cloaks because they are Hero ships from the TV Series. The Avenger can use a Cloak because it's basically a KDF Battle Cruiser in Fed Colours and because Money.
So the only reason you guys want a Federation Phase Cloak is to have more power in the game. So you don't have to Roll a Romulan or a Klingon and buy the ship that has the Phased Cloaking device on it which is way weaker than the I'm immune to everything button you guys want. Looking at the Phased cloaks already implemented in the game your asking for 10s at best of being immune with a 3 minute cooldown.
Actually that means the LRSVR (Intrepid Retrofit) pretty much has Phased Cloak on it. You can hit Mask Energy Signature and than activate the Ablative Armour Generator. OMG Voyager is so OP you guys!
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
the issue it shouldn't BE a console. it should be integrated that the REST of the cloaks. And what proof is there that Okeg is still in office?
Ummm already been covered
And to the Federation, it does count - you keep ignoring that.
And the RSE is in a far better state than the True Way, the RSE still has a Navy, a Senate, a new homeworld of their own. They are not gone, they just have a power vacuum at the top thanks to Sela being taken by Iconians. (a situation fairly normal for the RSE, given its politics)
So? AGT is a different thing, and isn't happening anyway. Also, Riker never covered how he got a cloak - at best anything that can be said about it is speculation.
and how is this info gotten from?
Do we know they had a senate? Sela was an Empress.