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Fed Phasing Cloaking Device

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  • xiaoping88xiaoping88 Member Posts: 1,493 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Not really, nothing in the game invalidates the path, you have Sela at Khitomer.

    At most LoR just changed "Romulans" to "Tal Shiar" in some missions, the Romulan Star Empire have not ceased to exist and neither have it stop being recognized by both the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets.

    Also arguments that the agreement was Taris is absurd, this is like saying the United States every time it changes head of states have to sign every treaty again, the Treaty of Algeron is still in effect since the Romulan Star Empire have not ceased to exist as a legal entity.

    Federation ships should not cloak, handling cloaks to everything would serious upset even more the balance of the game even if the Cloak is pretty much a one-trick pony not worth the console slot its not something that should be given out like candy.

    Can someone listen to this guy?
    Last time I checked Obama didn't rise to power through a coup, so I don't think that comparison is accurate at all.

    Irrelevant.
    No, really... this is totally irrelevant. Get some basic course in International relations or something.
    Reality is an illusion.
    The universe is a hologram.
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  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    xiaoping88 wrote: »
    Can someone listen to this guy?



    Irrelevant.
    No, really... this is totally irrelevant. Get some basic course in International relations or something.
    Last time I checked you don't need to take a course on international relations to realize that saying the Electoral Process of the USA is analogous to the situation in a Romulan Military coup isn't the most accurate comparison.

    These are two completely different political situations and processes here, and fact of the matter is, there really isn't anything indicating that the Federation is honoring agreements made with Taris with regards to Sela...quite the contrary.
  • pwecaptainsmirkpwecaptainsmirk Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Wasn't it Gene Roddenberry that said something like: "The Federation doesn't sneak around".


    Essentially, the Federation is supposed to be an Utopian, positive society. They are the good guys.

    They don't use cloak, certainly not on a large scale, because anyone knows that cloak can be easily used offensively, and makes people distrustful of a political entity that promotes peace, freedom and cooperation. If the Federation is willing to sacrifice trust for a plain military advantage, how do you convince people that it's really just for "peaceful exploration"?

    Section 31 is canon and they are super sneaky, so...
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  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited August 2014

    Section 31 is canon and they are super sneaky, so...


    Hmmm so I'm guessing that one of the Dev Blogs for X2 will announce that Section 31 has been working on something similiar to this then......


    Federation Adapted Kar'Fi phased battlecloak

    *30sec cd toggle[improved over Kar'fis 3min cd]
    *places the ship out of phase and untargetable
    *unable to launch hanger pets or fire projectile weapons, Energy weapons can be used while in phase state
    *Can be used on any Federation alliance ship but uses 1 - console slot
    .

    should make for some interesting reading.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pwecaptainsmirkpwecaptainsmirk Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Keep in mind the political turmoil of the remnants of the RSE and the reformation of the government into a Monarchy by Sela after a civil war, as well as the countless examples of hostilities towards the Romulan citizens that later formed the Republic, would be grounds for the Federation to withdraw from the treaty.

    The existence of cloaking technology for established ships currently in STO shows that the FEDs chose to move on and develop cloaking technology for FED ships.

    Not all get it obviously because you cannot simply slap a cloaking device on an existing ship with a great deal of success as the Defiant and the Pegasus demonstrate, but some new ships can be designed with a cloaking device phasing or not, as is evident by the Avenger.

    At this point, 2410, I don't think the Federation has any advantage by equipping cloaking devices on their ships, when their two main rivals, the KDF and tthe Romulans have had them for as long as they have.
  • icegavelicegavel Member Posts: 991 Arc User
    edited August 2014

    Section 31 is canon and they are super sneaky, so...

    They also weren't created until long after Gene died. :p
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    i'd like to talk about this ship in that regard :D
  • pwecaptainsmirkpwecaptainsmirk Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Section 31 is also a illegal organization.

    Also keep in mind a organization that planned and executed the genocide of a entire race (the Changelings) is not exactly something you would want to be associated because I have no problems in bringing up Unit 731 and other "fun stuff" back in WW II.

    It's legality depends on who you ask.

    Plus whoa, who mentioned anything about Changelings or TRIBBLE?

    Why does everyone default to TRIBBLE in STO? I don't get that.
  • pwecaptainsmirkpwecaptainsmirk Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    icegavel wrote: »
    They also weren't created until long after Gene died. :p

    Yes, because the canon continued. It changed, as it will continue to change, which is not bad. It's how franchises stay alive after the amazing people who created them have warped away into the sunset.
  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Keep in mind the political turmoil of the remnants of the RSE and the reformation of the government into a Monarchy by Sela after a civil war, as well as the countless examples of hostilities towards the Romulan citizens that later formed the Republic, would be grounds for the Federation to withdraw from the treaty.

    The existence of cloaking technology for established ships currently in STO shows that the FEDs chose to move on and develop cloaking technology for FED ships.

    Not all get it obviously because you cannot simply slap a cloaking device on an existing ship with a great deal of success as the Defiant and the Pegasus demonstrate, but some new ships can be designed with a cloaking device phasing or not, as is evident by the Avenger.

    At this point, 2410, I don't think the Federation has any advantage by equipping cloaking devices on their ships, when their two main rivals, the KDF and tthe Romulans have had them for as long as they have.
    Wasn't the Defiant's cloaking device basically a Romulan cloaking device 'slapped on' though? I don't recall it being a very large device, and they didn't need to redesign the ship in order to get it to work, and they didn't seem to really need much more in the way of personnel to run. iI doesn't seem like cloaking devices are very difficult to install. Granted, the Defiant's cloaking wasn't perfect, so It's possible there might be problems when trying to use cloaking devices on larger ships if they were not designed for it, but cloaking something like a Saber class shouldn't be too much more difficult, what do you think?
  • admiraltrappittadmiraltrappitt Member Posts: 444 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Ok, I'm about to ask a odd question that I have been wondering while reading this thread;
    Has Smirk's account been TRIBBLE? The posts seem very out of character, and I can not see any reason to fuel the fire of the FEderation cloak debate, and going against the lore. Honestly his posts in this thread look just like any poster, not like something from Smirk, or any CM.
    Proad admin of the Star Trek Battles channel. Join today!

    I actually like Delta Rising.
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  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Yes, because the canon continued. It changed, as it will continue to change, which is not bad. It's how franchises stay alive after the amazing people who created them have warped away into the sunset.

    Yeah is just funny I remember a quote from Gene though on this subject and he said our good guys don't sneak around lol :D
  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Yeah is just funny I remember a quote from Gene though on this subject and he said our good guys don't sneak around lol :D
    Well, there are numerous episodes when they did just that, so things definitely moved on...even in the shows where gene was still in charge.
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Yeah is just funny I remember a quote from Gene though on this subject and he said our good guys don't sneak around lol :D

    He also said they never disagreed with each other, never desired personal possessions, never waged war against aggressors, never acted out of ambition, and never became villains. Yet all four of those were regular themes even while he was alive, even when his direct influence was at its greatest, and continued to be long after.

    Despite his insistence that humans had become perfect, he still let humanity's dark side shine through under duress. The Earth-Romulan War and the hatred that it still stirred several generations later were, at least in part, his brainchild. And that's a real dark idea - the Earth-Romulan war was farther removed from Kirk than World War I is from us today, and still stirred a blind hate you almost never see outside of active conflicts.
  • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Plus whoa, who mentioned anything about Changelings or TRIBBLE?

    Why does everyone default to TRIBBLE in STO? I don't get that.

    Godwin's Law. :D
    NJ9oXSO.png
    "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
    -Thomas Marrone
  • pwecaptainsmirkpwecaptainsmirk Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    edited August 2014

    Aww yes. Godwin's Law #42 - Those who disagree with me = TRIBBLE's who wanna wear swimsuits in social zones. :D
  • pwecaptainsmirkpwecaptainsmirk Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Wasn't the Defiant's cloaking device basically a Romulan cloaking device 'slapped on' though?

    Yeah but for the sake of plot point it did not work well on their first mission :)
    Ok, I'm about to ask a odd question that I have been wondering while reading this thread;
    Has Smirk's account been TRIBBLE?

    Nope it's me. Forum folks asked me to "talk" more to them, so don't be surprised if I do now :)

    Yeah is just funny I remember a quote from Gene though on this subject and he said our good guys don't sneak around lol :D

    It ain't always easy being the "good guys" in today's work-a-day-hussle futuristic sci-fi MMO-verse.

    That's it for me tonight folks!

    Have a great weekend and I will be back on Monday for more discussion and moding.

    ~CaptainSmirk
  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited August 2014
    There's a cloak-capable Fed ship in Star Trek: Insurrection.
    I AM WAR.
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    There's a cloak-capable Fed ship in Star Trek: Insurrection.
    and in TOS they got a cloak to work with the Enterprise with little difficultly. Face it the feds should have the KDF style cloak but Defiant Battle cloak since that was rommulan based.
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    In case you haven't gotten the Accolades, here they are (again)...
    Tragedy struck for Starfleet on Stardate 72487.91, when the U.S.S. Kelso was lost with all hands.

    The Kelso was supposed to be on a routine mission to study the long-term effects of the Hobus supernova on star systems in the Devron Sector when it was destroyed. Initial reports indicated that the Kelso could have come under attack. However, when the remains of the vessel were recovered by the U.S.S. April, it was found that a coolant leak caused by an experimental cloaking device onboard the Kelso caused plasma to vent from the ship. The plasma reacted with ionizing radiation present in the area, causing the explosion which destroyed the Kelso.

    After careful consideration, Captain Barax Wenn of the April revealed the cause of the Kelso's destruction to the captains of the Romulan ships assisting in the search for the vessel. In response, Praetor Taris lodged an immediate complaint with the Federation Council, and, as a "gesture of good faith," informed the Klingon Empire of the details of the Kelso's destruction as well.

    Starfleet Security admitted that the U.S.S. Kelso was testing a Federation cloaking device. The Romulans then ejected all Federation diplomats and ships from their space in protest, and Chancellor J'mpok recalled the Klingon ambassador to the Federation back to Qo'noS for "strategic discussions."
    After the revelation that Starfleet was testing a cloaking device, tensions between the Federation, Romulans and Klingons were at their highest point since the destruction of the Romulan homeworld in 2387. After a full inquiry, six members of Starfleet Security were court-martialed.

    It took three months for Federation President Aennik Okeg to convince the Romulans and the Klingons to send representatives to a summit to discuss the situation. When the meeting finally began, Okeg made the Federation's position clear. He apologized for the experiments into cloaking technology, and said that he had signed an executive order banning all research into or creation of Federation cloaking technology.

    "The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed," Okeg said. "The Romulan Star Empire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federation's commitment to peace."
    ...which leads me to QFT another individual...
    Reading is OP

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=
    ...in regards to statements concerning the invalidity of the Treaty of Algeron.

    The Path to 2409 covers the events leading up to STO, followed by the game itself covering the events of 2409, then progressing to 2410 starting with "A Step Between Stars"... and nothing has been said of anyone overriding the executive order signed by Federation President Aennik Okeg. Did anyone notice that the Avenger-class wasn't built with a cloak? It was merely designed to be compatible with the cloaking devices found on the Defiant and Gal-X; that means that the Avenger-class didn't technically violate Okeg's executive order, since it wasn't researching or creating Federation cloaking technology... it merely allowed the use of preexisting cloaking devices. Maybe that's giving the devs too much credit, but it was true to the lore.

    Then again, the same technicality might be able to justify the use of a Phasing Cloak on a U.S.S. Pegasus; I'd still expect a chance for it to go severely wrong, both in...
    1) a chance of catastrophic failure (which occurred on both the U.S.S. Pegasus and later U.S.S. Kelso, with differing degrees of lethality) if you didn't also equip the Enhanced Plasma Manifold
    ...and...
    2) enabling lethal collision with ships and objects upon coming back into phase to simulate the effects of phasing into space occupied by another object (which is how the U.S.S. Pegasus ended up stuck in an asteroid, much to the detriment of its crew).
    ...both of which should come with a longer cooldown than other forms of cloaking and have a limited duration. Well, either that or just put the Phase Shift generator in a lock box, since the Phasing Cloak would make that console look like a joke without major improvements to it as well :P
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,005 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    and in TOS they got a cloak to work with the Enterprise with little difficultly. Face it the feds should have the KDF style cloak but Defiant Battle cloak since that was rommulan based.

    "Face it", only because there were 4 story related isntances where Starfleet ships could cloak (single exceptions), the whole of Starfleet should NOT be equipped with cloaks. What kind of logic is that? I'd like to see starfleet issues Scottish Broadswords as standard issue armament, because Scotty wielded one in one episode.

    The UFP and Starfleet does not cloak. They just don't, it's a principle of this franchise. Nobody asks for Warhammer Space Marines to use Gauss rifles, Nobody asks for good Jedi to use force suffocation but people stir around in the Star Trek IP all the time because... ?
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    In case you haven't gotten the Accolades, here they are (again)...


    ...which leads me to QFT another individual...

    ...in regards to statements concerning the invalidity of the Treaty of Algeron.

    The Path to 2409 covers the events leading up to STO, followed by the game itself covering the events of 2409, then progressing to 2410 starting with "A Step Between Stars"... and nothing has been said of anyone overriding the executive order signed by Federation President Aennik Okeg. Did anyone notice that the Avenger-class wasn't built with a cloak? It was merely designed to be compatible with the cloaking devices found on the Defiant and Gal-X; that means that the Avenger-class didn't technically violate Okeg's executive order, since it wasn't researching or creating Federation cloaking technology... it merely allowed the use of preexisting cloaking devices. Maybe that's giving the devs too much credit, but it was true to the lore.

    Then again, the same technicality might be able to justify the use of a Phasing Cloak on a U.S.S. Pegasus; I'd still expect a chance for it to go severely wrong, both in...
    1) a chance of catastrophic failure (which occurred on both the U.S.S. Pegasus and later U.S.S. Kelso, with differing degrees of lethality) if you didn't also equip the Enhanced Plasma Manifold
    ...and...
    2) enabling lethal collision upon coming back into phase to simulate the effects of phasing in a location occupied by another object (which is how the U.S.S. Pegasus ended up stuck in an asteroid, much to the detriment of its crew).
    ...both of which should come with a longer cooldown than other forms of cloaking and have a limited duration. Well, either that or just put the Phase Shift generator in a lock box, since the Phasing Cloak would make that console look like a joke without major improvements to it as well :P


    the issue is the Path is outdated and okeg likely no longer in office and the galatic situation has changed even more.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,005 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    No, there is absolutely nothing that points is a official agency of the Federation, sure there is Article 14, Section 31, but funny thing about it is we never read it or it ever said it created Section 31.

    Unless you believe secret courts and secret police are wonderful things, you know "removing dangerous elements" in the silence of the night.

    This.

    Section 31 was created specifically to be a villian "within own ranks" in DS9. It's a terrorist group that claims to act on behalf of the greater good. The practice to glorify such methods past 9/11 across the board is actually a little bit unsettling in RL and in case of Star Trek (sadly, not only STO is to blame) the writers really didn't get that - or just knew it would sell well.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    the issue is the Path is outdated and okeg likely no longer in office and the galatic situation has changed even more.

    The Path is outdated, because we are just over a year from where it left off, all of which we have played through, and Okeg is likely no longer president after being re-elected for his second term in 2398 and his third term in 2405, while still being in office as of 2409?

    It's not our fault many of us have spent more time with STO than STO has spent within itself ;)

    Then again, if elections for President of the Federation are being held, I know of a Starfleet Officer with an excellent record for both combat and Diplomacy. They possess knowledge of the less public aspects of Federation government, as well as experience personally negotiating the cooperation of multiple species in the formation of the Omega Task Force. They have cordial relations with Q, have assisted the Romulan Republic on multiple occasions, and have a great deal of experience fighting the Dominion, True Way, Voth, Undine, and even Devidians in combat. While this officer goes by many names, I'm pretty sure we all know who I'm referring to... vote Player Character today!
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
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  • knuhteb5knuhteb5 Member Posts: 1,831 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    You all missed the point here. If the fed ship is cloaked, how can you see it!? Guys if you can't see it, it's not there! Problem solved; everyone can go home now.
    aGHGQIKr41KNi.gif
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,005 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    westmetals wrote: »
    To repeat (slightly) my devil's advocacy from a few pages back....

    Do we actually know that there are Federation developed cloaking devices in active use? (Aside from the Pegasus/Kelso situations I mean.) Because if I remember correctly, the Treaty of Algeron only said the Federation could not research and/or develop the technology. Which you would think would preclude using it, but it doesn't. Did the Treaty actually say the Federation can't use cloaking devices?

    The original Defiant (Romulan) and replacement Defiant (Klingon) had cloaking devices that were not of Federation manufacture, but gifted or loaned from allied powers. It's possible that Starfleet did a piece by piece scan and copy of either of these and is now manufacturing based on those plans. We don't know the origin of the upgraded Enterprise-D (Galaxy-X)'s cloak, but it's possible that it also came from an outside source.

    Also, considering the current political situation, it could also be possible that the cloaks provided to additional Federation ships (the player copies of Defiant, Galaxy-X, etc.) are being provided from a limited supply by the Romulan Republic. The limited nature of the supply might explain why it is only being made available to certain ship classes (or perhaps those ships were specifically designed to have connectors in place for it, etc. Note that in the case of the Defiant class, the cloak can only be used on the Zen-store and Fleet "retrofit" variants, not on the base and refit variants...).

    So it's possible that the existing "Federation cloaks" are either Federation-built but not of Federation design... or not Federation-built at all. In either case, it would then be unnecessary to assume that the Federation had (illegally, at least until the legal discontinuity of the RSE, if that has in fact yet occured) researched cloaking technology beyond the date of the known prototype incidents.

    In regards to sTO, I think the misconception is that we assume that all Defiants/Sao Paolos and Dreadnaught Cruisers are issued cloaking devices. But to my knowledge, NPC ships don't use a cloak - it's only the player that is able to cloak, and he or she does so because the single one-shot ships in the show could do it and we are all the heroes, so every Defiant player has this unique Romulan/Klingon loan cloaking device on his or her ship.

    Making the cloak available to players was a mistake - in my opinion it should not be available to Starfleet at all. But as long as we don't see NPCs using the cloak (if they do my point is void, but like I said, I personally don't know that they cloak. Please correct me if I'm wrong) we cannot assume that Starfleet issues cloaks at all.
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Well Bashir rejected the group, I think they did meant the Section 31 was something that was just wrong but at the same time its clear DS9 writers had a bone to pick with Roddenberry idea of the Federation since they really put a lot of stupid TRIBBLE ...

    Like Sisko going on about the poor Federation colonists abandoned by the Federation in the name of peace and how Earth was a paradise except they kinda forgot ... Sisko was from Earth and the technology that was on Earth would be in the colonies as well, its jut hollow to decry the Federation being peaceful using the wrong person to do so (Sisko was born on Earth and nothing on his career makes him having any knowledge what a colonist life would be about) and ignoring they werent natives to those worlds either, the only "right" was give by the Federation of having claimed those words to begin with.

    I dont think the 9/11 is entirely fair since DS9 ended about 2 years before that, maybe looking back but it wasnt something at the time those episodes were written, just something people started to see after ... I think it was more of a anti-Roddenberry statement but at least its also clear Section 31 wasnt meant to be viewed as "the ends justify the means" but something that was simply wrong.

    This is why DS9 is such a series that divides Trek fans, it certainly had anti-Roddenberry statements on it and some were continued in Enterprise simply because they had to use Section 31 for reasons, either way its still something that should not exist unless you are a fan of unaccountability along with unrestricted power.

    You are right, the 9/11 statement was specifically aimed at ENT which used it in a rather unsubtle way to portray certain ideas and ride the patriotic bandwagon (in my opinion). Of course S31 was also a great way to explain away the lore desaster they caused for also making the wrong esign decisions in the show's planning stage.

    DS9 is however one, of my favourite Trek shows, despite the tones of the later stages because of some great character development and interactions. And S31 was portrayed to be a villian organisation - sure, it was also to stir around the "perfect federation" image, but TNG did that as well (albeit not under Rodenberry). Truth is, the UFP cannot be perfect - in fact, issues like prejudice and outright racism by Starfleet officers and UFP citizens is shown in the shows as well. But the UFP and Starfleet work by different ideals and standards and try to live up to that. It's especially moot to see people especially on these forums to constantly draw connections between present day US military and how starfleet/the UFP "should" behave - this is just a plain wrong way of looking at it. Star Trek established rules, established the technology used and how the factions are portrayed - if one doesn't like that, well, like I said - would you want to rewrite Orcs to embrace democracy, arts and music because you don't like how Orcs are portrayed in a certain franchise? Most of those suggestions and pleas just go right over the IP's head, so to speak.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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