Oh god...Smirk, you don't realize what you just did, do you?
You just gave the pro-Fed cloak argument SO much ammunition by saying that. They'll never let this go, never now, and will gladly use that quote over and over and over again to justify it.
Nah, he just hasn't done much of the “History 102: Alpha Quadrant Midterm” or “Learning the Lore of the Empire” missions at the Academies... or at least hasn't gotten the question "How many members of Starfleet Security were court-martialed after the destruction of the U.S.S. Kelso?"
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Oh god...Smirk, you don't realize what you just did, do you?
You just gave the pro-Fed cloak argument SO much ammunition by saying that. They'll never let this go, never now, and will gladly use that quote over and over and over again to justify it.
Well, it is pretty obvious that the Federation isn't following the treaty anymore. There are at least three different ship models with cloaking capabilities in the fed fleet and some are even used in story missions (one of the RR fed ally missions has several decloaking Defiants reinforce the player in a fight, for example).
Having said that, that doesn't mean that cloaks will be issued to all the ships in the fleet, or even more than they are used right now.
On the other hand, some cutscenes with D'tan make it clear that a big part of the Republic alliance terms involve sharing cloaking tech, so yeah, we might see some news on that. I am hoping that the KDF T6 raptor will have a battle cloak and that the upgraded T5 raptors will follow suit.
Obviously, the Treaty of Algeron was just an excuse to explain why Starfleet still wasn't using cloaking devices, decades after they'd first encountered them, and after a certain Captain Kirk went to a lot of trouble to steal a working cloaking device so that Starfleet could reverse-engineer it.
The Voyager "technical manual", a guide for writers for that series, said that the real reason that Starfleet doesn't develop cloaking technology is that its primary mission is exploration, and that means they don't "sneak around". So, it's thematic.
That seems to me to be one of those Roddenberry rules that doesn't actually make a lot of sense. For instance, an aspect of the Prime Directive is that Starfleet makes considerable efforts to avoid exposing its existence to pre-warp cultures, which means that when the explorers are studying those cultures -- the premise in many episodes of ST:TOS and ST:TNG -- the explorers are sneaking around. Obviously, cloaking would be helpful for those missions, as well as many other situations in which our protagonists, in proper Starfleet fashion, would rather avoid unnecessary conflict.
For STO purposes, it seems like it's really an issue of game balance. I'm not sure whether it makes sense that the Treaty of Algeron is still in force. I think it would make more sense to say something like, cloaking devices, somewhat like deflector shields, are related to the warp core, and that Klingon and Romulan engines are optimized to power the cloak; Federation engines aren't, and so it's much more expensive to run a cloaking device.
The fed can use cloaks successfuylly. Key point the phase cloak from Pegasus. that was a complete fed tech cloak and they improved the cloak to phase. Something the Romulans failed to do.
and as Captain Smirk and many TRUE trek fans surmise. THe Algeron Treaty is null and void since the RSE is gone. THat Tal Shair may hold planets and stations with a fleet of ships they are nolonger a recognized power.
While it is true that some of the signatories to the treaty of algeron no longer exist and as a result the constraints of the treaty may no longer technically apply to the remaining signatories, it is part of STO lore that the Federation President has said that the Federation would abide by it anyway.
Much as the United States still abides by the terms of many of the treaties it signed with the U.S.S.R. even though it, technically, no longer exists.
Just because one party to a treaty ceases to be, does not mean an instant free for all on everything outlawed/banned/restricted in said treaty.
Besides owning and flying a B'rel and a T'varo, the whole cloaking thing is really overrated for anything outside of PvP. I do use it, but not much and not regularly since engaging the cloak, even an enhanced battle cloak, drops my shields,... not something I'd willing do surrounded by Borg,...
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
While it is true that some of the signatories to the treaty of algeron no longer exist and as a result the constraints of the treaty may no longer technically apply to the remaining signatories, it is part of STO lore that the Federation President has said that the Federation would abide by it anyway.
Much as the United States still abides by the terms of many of the treaties it signed with the U.S.S.R. even though it, technically, no longer exists.
Just because one party to a treaty ceases to be, does not mean an instant free for all on everything outlawed/banned/restricted in said treaty.
Besides owning and flying a B'rel and a T'varo, the whole cloaking thing is really overrated for anything outside of PvP. I do use it, but not much and not regularly since engaging the cloak, even an enhanced battle cloak, drops my shields,... not something I'd willing do surrounded by Borg,...
I figure we reneogotiated with the Russian Federation. As far as we know RR has a completely different agree ment. and by now the Pres that enforced that treaty isn't there anymore.
I figure we reneogotiated with the Russian Federation. As far as we know RR has a completely different agree ment. and by now the Pres that enforced that treaty isn't there anymore.
Actually, that president is still in charge in his third term, and cloaking starships remain banned for Starfleet use.
See The Path to 2409: Volume 16, Chapter 2 for Fed-cloaks, and The Path to 2409: Volume 26, Chapter 5 for the current president Aennik Okeg, a Saurian.
I figure we reneogotiated with the Russian Federation. As far as we know RR has a completely different agree ment. and by now the Pres that enforced that treaty isn't there anymore.
Yeah, completely different situations.
As for the "Path to 2409" they were working on an experimental cloaking device (for all we know, it could have been the 2.0 version of the phase cloak)....so not really indicative of the Federation's overall cloaking technology.
The Federation was advanced enough to have personal cloaking suits and generators that could cloak small, stationary structures. So there's a precedent for their cloaking tech being advanced enough to not blow up in their faces when they turn it on.
The Defiant was a special exception to the treaty, exclusive to THE Defiant, not all defiants. The Valiant, for instance, lacked such a device. The second Defiant (Sao Paulo) did not get a replacement Cloaking Device...so there isn't really an excuse for there being any Fed ships with cloaking devices.
For some inexplicable reason the Federation has decided to ignore the treaty in regards to specific ship classes. IMO it's about time we start being able to use the cloaking device console on other ships.
I don't get it, You Feds seem Desperate to get a Cloaking device... but not ready to play a Romulan and Join the Federation or Play a Klingon.
The two ships that can use Cloaks are the ones that had them on the TV series.
Now as for the Avenger I don't know what loophole in the lore allows it but I guess they did it to sell ships.
The Oberth will not be an Endgame ship, the Federation will not have widespread cloaking devices. This is because CBS said so.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
imo if cryptic cave and give feddies cloak it will pretty much be the harbinger of 'dooom' people frequently laugh about. it will be beyond any doubt a decision borne of desperation on the part of cryptic; an undeniable admission that they have completely run out of monetisation avenues for sto and are in fact moving to a 'milk it for what we can before it dies' strategy. the only other possible explanation would be pure greed, which would also likely be the last straw for a huge number of kdf-mains.
getting what you want isnt always a good thing...
I don't get it, You Feds seem Desperate to get a Cloaking device... but not ready to play a Romulan and Join the Federation or Play a Klingon.
The two ships that can use Cloaks are the ones that had them on the TV series.
Now as for the Avenger I don't know what loophole in the lore allows it but I guess they did it to sell ships.
The Oberth will not be an Endgame ship, the Federation will not have widespread cloaking devices. This is because CBS said so.
The second defiant in fact did have a cloaking device, just one of Klingon origin. So yeah.
Anyways, I don't want cloaking devices on every ship, necessarily, but I would like to see cloaks compatible with ships that, in canon, did in fact cloak.
That means a phase cloak equipped Oberth- perhaps as a tier 4 or 5 retrofit, and have that console be compatible with the normal, non dreadnought Galaxy class, as well as all other galaxy variants, the Avenger, and the Defiant.
That's not heralding the ultimate generipocalypse, that's getting things we had in the original canon.
Even if there was a fed cloaking device released for every fed ship it wouldn't be the same as the KDF or roms. It would be proliferation of a strategically useful technology, but it wouldn't really change fed gameplay all that much- and we're long past the point where the klinks really have any legs to stand on about faction specific goodness. What's the faction specific goodness the feds get? Oh right, they don't get anything, because they're the 'basic' faction, while KDF/Roms are the more advanced, tactically complex factions.
Adding some more tactically complex options to the feds isn't going to devalue those options on KDF/Roms, it will just open those options up to long time players with fed chars. The whole existence of the romulans means that anyone who wants to do cloaking X can just role a romulan, unless they want to do a cloaking fed ship for thematic, style, or canon supporting reasons- in which case they're out of luck.
Now that all said, if the feds don't have an excuse because the treaty of algeron or the commitments made by the fed president don't apply anymore- both of which were promises made to now non-existent or so radically changed as to be a different animal (the KDF)- then the klingons especially don't have any reason to withhold the development of cloaking technology for their allies. Gorn, nausicans, letheans- we should have had a cloaking console for those races long before the present.
wouldn't really surprise me if he offered to help, I don't think the Romulans managed to successfully create a working phasic cloaking system and the fed's would be more useful allies strategically if they were able to cloak both vs the Iconian's and Tal'shiar remnants
That one really old fleet action/event at that temple would suggest they maybe were working on it. An enemy only available for the KDF to fight the fek'ihr have that kind of tech. If they wanted to milk the iconian story line some more and give phase cloak options to every faction for battle cloak purposes on ships fed or kdf that should have them anyways.
There was a somewhat teaser in coliseum where it says the fek'ihr are now under new leadership. The next offensive action from the iconians could be using the fek'ihr to undermine the counter command and in light of that we get phase cloaks/phase battle cloaks heh.
It would be ironic though if they did an episode where you go to your third dyson sphere and find out that is why the coliseum gate showed it but the reason they could never find them was because it was another sphere in subspace. Also it would be good if raiding a fek'ihr base like that yielded special drops for crafting materials to make stuff like say not just a fed phase cloak but a counter command set that has like a phase battle cloak or something. For something say like if they make aquarius a true raider that ship and say the avenger and klingon battle cruisers and warbirds could use them and for difference in core's since romulans have cd reduction and remans have infiltration that the fed/kdf set could provide those as set effects lol. I'm mostly pro kdf when it comes to content but I would most likely give my feds more playing time if I were to say be able to use a defiant like I play my bops. I think they should use this idea though would be something fed players would want and it also would give a new season of this idea a pro KDF view imo being that usually a season content doesn't relate to something of Klingon origin.
I have to agree that the Romulan Empire no longer exists, so treaties with them are now null and void.
Except two things.
1. If the Republic is to be seen as the true successor nation of the Star Empire, treaties have to be reevaluated, but are not automatically null and void.
2. The Romulan Star Empire IS NOT GONE. The last thing we know, story-wise, is that there is infighting after Sela's disappearence. But the Empire still exists, and the Federation should not break its treaties just because the other party is weak or distracted right now.
That's the whole point of treaties. You don't break them if you want to be seen as reliable.
So either the Feds are seeing the Republic as the only legitimate representative of the Romulan people and the Romulan state, and thusly getting into new talks about all the Romulan-Federation treaties, OR the Feds still recognize the Star Empire to some extend (thus recognizing the existence of two Romulan nations!) and the treaty is still in effect.
Not recognizing the Star Empire anymore and not recognizing the Republic as a successor nation of the Empire would make the Feds look worse then a bunch of Targs on the diplomatic floor.
Oh god...Smirk, you don't realize what you just did, do you?
You just gave the pro-Fed cloak argument SO much ammunition by saying that. They'll never let this go, never now, and will gladly use that quote over and over and over again to justify it.
it's even more i guess lol.... that t6 defiant picture.... i really don't think this is pure theorycrafting or such :eek:.
I have to agree that the Romulan Empire no longer exists, so treaties with them are now null and void.
There is no such treaty with the Romulan Republic (as far as we know?) so it would not violate any treaty to actively pursue a Fed Cloaking Device, phased or not.
I doubt D'Tan would tell the Feds they can't research cloaking technology.
~CaptainSmirk
With all due respect, Smirk, but how about keeping this game Star Trek? Isn't that, like, the most important part of Star Trek Online? Or should we all, as I said in another thread, sing up for receiving AK-47 rifles and Leopard tanks?
I play all the factions. The Romulan part of me doesn't care. The Klingon part of me doesn't care either.
The Starfleet part of me is however disgusted by the premise of these threads and the constant petulant whining of a small part of the Federation playerbase who keep creating this bad whiny image for the entire faction.
Seriously, this is suposed to be Star Trek, right? When did we see the Federation using cloaking devices in the show? They had a Romulan borrowed cloak that meshed terribly with Starfleet tech and has issues with the power signature on one ship, limited to use it only in the Gamma Quadrant as a form of reconnaissance.
All the folks constantly whining about cloaks for Feds or other stuff that has no logical place in this franchise are barking on the wrong tree. They should seriously consider moving to other games, even though I'm the last person to want to send people off this game. But this is really becomming tiresome.
This is Star Trek Online. Star Trek has established premises and rules that make it Star Trek. If this game is to be a Star Trek game, it must adhere to the basic principles of what made Star Trek what it is. This is the bottom line.
With all due respect, Smirk, but how about keeping this game Star Trek? Isn't that, like, the most important part of Star Trek Online? Or should we all, as I said in another thread, sing up for receiving AK-47 rifles and Leopard tanks?
I play all the factions. The Romulan part of me doesn't care. The Klingon part of me doesn't care either.
The Starfleet part of me is however disgusted by the premise of these threads and the constant petulant whining of a small part of the Federation playerbase who keep creating this bad whiny image for the entire faction.
Seriously, this is suposed to be Star Trek, right? When did we see the Federation using cloaking devices in the show? They had a Romulan borrowed cloak that meshed terribly with Starfleet tech and has issues with the power signature on one ship, limited to use it only in the Gamma Quadrant as a form of reconnaissance.
All the folks constantly whining about cloaks for Feds or other stuff that has no logical place in this franchise are barking on the wrong tree. They should seriously consider moving to other games, even though I'm the last person to want to send people off this game. But this is really becomming tiresome.
This is Star Trek Online. Star Trek has established premises and rules that make it Star Trek. If this game is to be a Star Trek game, it must adhere to the basic principles of what made Star Trek what it is. This is the bottom line.
For the love of Trek! The anti-Fed-cloak people are the ones who need to get a grip here and the o es who apparently never watched Star Trek.
As Smirk said, the treaty applies to the Romulan Star Empire and they aren't around anymore. However, even when they were the Feds used cloaks when they thought they could get away with it. I lost count of the number of times that Sisko used the cloak in the Alpha quadrant BEFORE the Romulans joined the alliance against the Dominion. In some cases someone on the ship mentioned the treaty violation and he would just blow it off.
That is also the canon of how Starfleet thinks and acts with regard to the treaty. If the Fed witnessed the DESTRUCTION of the Romulan Star Empire and goes to war with the Klingons you can bet we would embrace cloaking tech. That is also canon. Because in the finale of TNG when Picard jumps into the future when the Fed is at war with the KDF and the RSE is history we saw the Enterprise using a cloaking device.
In STO we regularly violate what used to be the Romulan neutral zone while warping around. If that isn't a violation of the treaty then neither is the use of cloaking devices.
In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
As Smirk said, the treaty applies to the Romulan Star Empire and they aren't around anymore.
Point me to the story mission or backround information which states that the Romulan Star Empire is not around anymore.
I would ask that of Smirk, too.
Fractured? Yes.
A failing state? Maybe.
But the Romulan Star Empire still exists as an entity, even though in a state of civil war at the moment.
Of course the Feds could use that weakness to invalidate their treaties.
But that's something I would expect from a Cardassian, not from the Federation... which was foolish enough to sign the Treaty of Algeron in the first place. :rolleyes:
As Smirk said, the treaty applies to the Romulan Star Empire and they aren't around anymore. However, even when they were the Feds used cloaks when they thought they could get away with it. I lost count of the number of times that Sisko used the cloak in the Alpha quadrant BEFORE the Romulans joined the alliance against the Dominion. In some cases someone on the ship mentioned the treaty violation and he would just blow it off.
That is also the canon of how Starfleet thinks and acts with regard to the treaty. If the Fed witnessed the DESTRUCTION of the Romulan Star Empire and goes to war with the Klingons you can bet we would embrace cloaking tech. That is also canon. Because in the finale of TNG when Picard jumps into the future when the Fed is at war with the KDF and the RSE is history we saw the Enterprise using a cloaking device.
In STO we regularly violate what used to be the Romulan neutral zone while warping around. If that isn't a violation of the treaty then neither is the use of cloaking devices.
This has nothing to do with what I said. What I'm saying is that a Star Trek game should resemble Star Trek, you know that actual franchise the game is suposedly based on? Throughout the entire history of the shows, Starfleet has never utilized cloaking. They're the white knights of the franchise, the ones that don't feel the need to hide and work from the shadows, the straightforward ones.
You try to interpret your wishfull thinking as hard facts in terms of how the Federation would react if it saw the destruction of the RSE (which is BTW not destroyed, at least not yet). How about Aennik Okeg, that Saurian dude that's suposed to be the President of the Federation and just got re-elected? How about his clear statement that the Federation doesn't consider the treaty void and that as a political way of extending a hand of friendship they'd adhere to the treaty even though there's turmoil in the RSE?
Or are we just going to ingore that part because it doesn't further your agenda as oposed to facts squeezed out of thin air about how the Federation would react to this, because you said so. :rolleyes:
I just love it how people think that this game based on an established franchise with basic ground rules should mold to their own whims, or should I even say utter player incompetence.
A Star Trek game should resemble the shows at all time, because that's what makes it Star Trek. There's waaay to many "but it's 2410, blah, blah" going on around here. SW:ToR is set 3000 years before the movies and the game still looks and feels 100% Star Wars.
Let's say a company makes a "Star Trek" game set in the 35-th century and they change everything - Starfleet Officers wear camouflage uniforms, we use tanks and battlemechs for gorund combat, we ceased using energy weapons because the Borg adapt so we use machine guns, the ships look like Matrix meets Mass Effect......so how's that game Star Trek, eh? Catch my drift yet? Because that's what some of you guys want to turn the game into. If you don't like Star Trek within it's established ground rules, just stop playing the game and stop the infernal whining already.
i think its time that the Federation uses Cloaking devices. THe TReaty of Algeron preventet Feds from using or developing them (they did anyway: pegasus) but now in my Opinion this TReaty has no value anymore. The Romulan Empire broke up, with the one Half, led by Sela and the Tal Shiar, we are at War, so who cares about Treatys with them, and the other Half, the Republic under D´Tan is not a military Dictatorship but a Civil State and also allied with us.
We Trust the Romulan Republic so much that we grant their members acess to our ships, except for the T5 ships (so the flagships) and let their fleets fly to the Center of Starfleet, to Earth (as we can fly to new Romulus). We fight together on every front and i dont see why they could have anything against us using cloaking devices? We even helped them built New Romulus.
I don´t really care if we have the cloak or not because we have enough good cruisers so that they are not really important but i see no reason why we could not have them
The trick to the question of treaty is whether the Federation considers the RSE defunct, and considers the Republic the only current legitimate Romulan state. It would make political sense to do that, so more of them would go over to the Republic, but it's still a question.
Executive order from the UFP President according to the Path to 2409 stipulates that the UFP will not research or develop any more cloaking devices for use on Star Fleet vessels.
I see this whole Fed cloak argument with, maybe, two basis for it:
1. The "perceived" Blue Plague (aka vocal minority of Feds) that want all the tricks for their ships.
2. DPS, specifically the bonus DPS from the decloak phase...
The rest of these threads - treaty gone, treaty here, treaty in flux, executive order, ignored executive order, Section 31's usual ignorance of Federation Law, etc. etc., are all covers / guises / rationales to get either 1 or 2...
Just like (and I'll admit) I play lore games as rationales to get me an endgame Connie.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
From a lore perspective, the treaty is basically defunct. Starfleet doesn't give two hoots what the Star Empire thinks and is violating the treaty willy-nilly. 2409 is the same year that they started using cloaking devices on ships, and the same year they launched the Avenger class.
The wiki also gives us this gem:
"Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships."
As for the hyperbolic going-on about how it will devalue the Klingons and Romulans....
1) The cloaking device only gives normal cloak, not battle cloak-and we all know which one is more useful.
2) It uses up a console slot. With all these powerful Ultra Rare consoles floating around from Fleets and crafting.
Considering the niche usefulness of sacrificing a console slot in exchange for a non-battle cloak when we have so many UR consoles floating out there now, I really doubt it would be a game breaker. As is, I rarely see cloaking devices being used on the three Fed ships that can already use it.
IMO the arguments that this would be game-breaking in regards to the in-game lore and/or gameplay just don't hold water.
Comments
Nah, he just hasn't done much of the “History 102: Alpha Quadrant Midterm” or “Learning the Lore of the Empire” missions at the Academies... or at least hasn't gotten the question "How many members of Starfleet Security were court-martialed after the destruction of the U.S.S. Kelso?"
Well, it is pretty obvious that the Federation isn't following the treaty anymore. There are at least three different ship models with cloaking capabilities in the fed fleet and some are even used in story missions (one of the RR fed ally missions has several decloaking Defiants reinforce the player in a fight, for example).
Having said that, that doesn't mean that cloaks will be issued to all the ships in the fleet, or even more than they are used right now.
On the other hand, some cutscenes with D'tan make it clear that a big part of the Republic alliance terms involve sharing cloaking tech, so yeah, we might see some news on that. I am hoping that the KDF T6 raptor will have a battle cloak and that the upgraded T5 raptors will follow suit.
that would make kdf happy it would in-game explain why fed can use some cloaks...
and it would make roms happy that feds sign new treaty RESTRICTING further use by feds of cloaking tech...
The Voyager "technical manual", a guide for writers for that series, said that the real reason that Starfleet doesn't develop cloaking technology is that its primary mission is exploration, and that means they don't "sneak around". So, it's thematic.
That seems to me to be one of those Roddenberry rules that doesn't actually make a lot of sense. For instance, an aspect of the Prime Directive is that Starfleet makes considerable efforts to avoid exposing its existence to pre-warp cultures, which means that when the explorers are studying those cultures -- the premise in many episodes of ST:TOS and ST:TNG -- the explorers are sneaking around. Obviously, cloaking would be helpful for those missions, as well as many other situations in which our protagonists, in proper Starfleet fashion, would rather avoid unnecessary conflict.
For STO purposes, it seems like it's really an issue of game balance. I'm not sure whether it makes sense that the Treaty of Algeron is still in force. I think it would make more sense to say something like, cloaking devices, somewhat like deflector shields, are related to the warp core, and that Klingon and Romulan engines are optimized to power the cloak; Federation engines aren't, and so it's much more expensive to run a cloaking device.
and as Captain Smirk and many TRUE trek fans surmise. THe Algeron Treaty is null and void since the RSE is gone. THat Tal Shair may hold planets and stations with a fleet of ships they are nolonger a recognized power.
Much as the United States still abides by the terms of many of the treaties it signed with the U.S.S.R. even though it, technically, no longer exists.
Just because one party to a treaty ceases to be, does not mean an instant free for all on everything outlawed/banned/restricted in said treaty.
Besides owning and flying a B'rel and a T'varo, the whole cloaking thing is really overrated for anything outside of PvP. I do use it, but not much and not regularly since engaging the cloak, even an enhanced battle cloak, drops my shields,... not something I'd willing do surrounded by Borg,...
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
I figure we reneogotiated with the Russian Federation. As far as we know RR has a completely different agree ment. and by now the Pres that enforced that treaty isn't there anymore.
Actually, that president is still in charge in his third term, and cloaking starships remain banned for Starfleet use.
See The Path to 2409: Volume 16, Chapter 2 for Fed-cloaks, and The Path to 2409: Volume 26, Chapter 5 for the current president Aennik Okeg, a Saurian.
As for the "Path to 2409" they were working on an experimental cloaking device (for all we know, it could have been the 2.0 version of the phase cloak)....so not really indicative of the Federation's overall cloaking technology.
The Federation was advanced enough to have personal cloaking suits and generators that could cloak small, stationary structures. So there's a precedent for their cloaking tech being advanced enough to not blow up in their faces when they turn it on.
The Defiant was a special exception to the treaty, exclusive to THE Defiant, not all defiants. The Valiant, for instance, lacked such a device. The second Defiant (Sao Paulo) did not get a replacement Cloaking Device...so there isn't really an excuse for there being any Fed ships with cloaking devices.
For some inexplicable reason the Federation has decided to ignore the treaty in regards to specific ship classes. IMO it's about time we start being able to use the cloaking device console on other ships.
The two ships that can use Cloaks are the ones that had them on the TV series.
Now as for the Avenger I don't know what loophole in the lore allows it but I guess they did it to sell ships.
The Oberth will not be an Endgame ship, the Federation will not have widespread cloaking devices. This is because CBS said so.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
getting what you want isnt always a good thing...
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The second defiant in fact did have a cloaking device, just one of Klingon origin. So yeah.
Anyways, I don't want cloaking devices on every ship, necessarily, but I would like to see cloaks compatible with ships that, in canon, did in fact cloak.
That means a phase cloak equipped Oberth- perhaps as a tier 4 or 5 retrofit, and have that console be compatible with the normal, non dreadnought Galaxy class, as well as all other galaxy variants, the Avenger, and the Defiant.
That's not heralding the ultimate generipocalypse, that's getting things we had in the original canon.
Even if there was a fed cloaking device released for every fed ship it wouldn't be the same as the KDF or roms. It would be proliferation of a strategically useful technology, but it wouldn't really change fed gameplay all that much- and we're long past the point where the klinks really have any legs to stand on about faction specific goodness. What's the faction specific goodness the feds get? Oh right, they don't get anything, because they're the 'basic' faction, while KDF/Roms are the more advanced, tactically complex factions.
Adding some more tactically complex options to the feds isn't going to devalue those options on KDF/Roms, it will just open those options up to long time players with fed chars. The whole existence of the romulans means that anyone who wants to do cloaking X can just role a romulan, unless they want to do a cloaking fed ship for thematic, style, or canon supporting reasons- in which case they're out of luck.
Now that all said, if the feds don't have an excuse because the treaty of algeron or the commitments made by the fed president don't apply anymore- both of which were promises made to now non-existent or so radically changed as to be a different animal (the KDF)- then the klingons especially don't have any reason to withhold the development of cloaking technology for their allies. Gorn, nausicans, letheans- we should have had a cloaking console for those races long before the present.
That one really old fleet action/event at that temple would suggest they maybe were working on it. An enemy only available for the KDF to fight the fek'ihr have that kind of tech. If they wanted to milk the iconian story line some more and give phase cloak options to every faction for battle cloak purposes on ships fed or kdf that should have them anyways.
There was a somewhat teaser in coliseum where it says the fek'ihr are now under new leadership. The next offensive action from the iconians could be using the fek'ihr to undermine the counter command and in light of that we get phase cloaks/phase battle cloaks heh.
It would be ironic though if they did an episode where you go to your third dyson sphere and find out that is why the coliseum gate showed it but the reason they could never find them was because it was another sphere in subspace. Also it would be good if raiding a fek'ihr base like that yielded special drops for crafting materials to make stuff like say not just a fed phase cloak but a counter command set that has like a phase battle cloak or something. For something say like if they make aquarius a true raider that ship and say the avenger and klingon battle cruisers and warbirds could use them and for difference in core's since romulans have cd reduction and remans have infiltration that the fed/kdf set could provide those as set effects lol. I'm mostly pro kdf when it comes to content but I would most likely give my feds more playing time if I were to say be able to use a defiant like I play my bops. I think they should use this idea though would be something fed players would want and it also would give a new season of this idea a pro KDF view imo being that usually a season content doesn't relate to something of Klingon origin.
Except two things.
1. If the Republic is to be seen as the true successor nation of the Star Empire, treaties have to be reevaluated, but are not automatically null and void.
2. The Romulan Star Empire IS NOT GONE. The last thing we know, story-wise, is that there is infighting after Sela's disappearence. But the Empire still exists, and the Federation should not break its treaties just because the other party is weak or distracted right now.
That's the whole point of treaties. You don't break them if you want to be seen as reliable.
So either the Feds are seeing the Republic as the only legitimate representative of the Romulan people and the Romulan state, and thusly getting into new talks about all the Romulan-Federation treaties, OR the Feds still recognize the Star Empire to some extend (thus recognizing the existence of two Romulan nations!) and the treaty is still in effect.
Not recognizing the Star Empire anymore and not recognizing the Republic as a successor nation of the Empire would make the Feds look worse then a bunch of Targs on the diplomatic floor.
it's even more i guess lol.... that t6 defiant picture.... i really don't think this is pure theorycrafting or such :eek:.
With all due respect, Smirk, but how about keeping this game Star Trek? Isn't that, like, the most important part of Star Trek Online? Or should we all, as I said in another thread, sing up for receiving AK-47 rifles and Leopard tanks?
I play all the factions. The Romulan part of me doesn't care. The Klingon part of me doesn't care either.
The Starfleet part of me is however disgusted by the premise of these threads and the constant petulant whining of a small part of the Federation playerbase who keep creating this bad whiny image for the entire faction.
Seriously, this is suposed to be Star Trek, right? When did we see the Federation using cloaking devices in the show? They had a Romulan borrowed cloak that meshed terribly with Starfleet tech and has issues with the power signature on one ship, limited to use it only in the Gamma Quadrant as a form of reconnaissance.
All the folks constantly whining about cloaks for Feds or other stuff that has no logical place in this franchise are barking on the wrong tree. They should seriously consider moving to other games, even though I'm the last person to want to send people off this game. But this is really becomming tiresome.
This is Star Trek Online. Star Trek has established premises and rules that make it Star Trek. If this game is to be a Star Trek game, it must adhere to the basic principles of what made Star Trek what it is. This is the bottom line.
All of this.
As Smirk said, the treaty applies to the Romulan Star Empire and they aren't around anymore. However, even when they were the Feds used cloaks when they thought they could get away with it. I lost count of the number of times that Sisko used the cloak in the Alpha quadrant BEFORE the Romulans joined the alliance against the Dominion. In some cases someone on the ship mentioned the treaty violation and he would just blow it off.
That is also the canon of how Starfleet thinks and acts with regard to the treaty. If the Fed witnessed the DESTRUCTION of the Romulan Star Empire and goes to war with the Klingons you can bet we would embrace cloaking tech. That is also canon. Because in the finale of TNG when Picard jumps into the future when the Fed is at war with the KDF and the RSE is history we saw the Enterprise using a cloaking device.
In STO we regularly violate what used to be the Romulan neutral zone while warping around. If that isn't a violation of the treaty then neither is the use of cloaking devices.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Point me to the story mission or backround information which states that the Romulan Star Empire is not around anymore.
I would ask that of Smirk, too.
Fractured? Yes.
A failing state? Maybe.
But the Romulan Star Empire still exists as an entity, even though in a state of civil war at the moment.
Of course the Feds could use that weakness to invalidate their treaties.
But that's something I would expect from a Cardassian, not from the Federation... which was foolish enough to sign the Treaty of Algeron in the first place. :rolleyes:
With a 90 percent chance of a warpcore malfunction and materializing in some asteroid.
Re-hee-hee-aaly? :rolleyes:
Before I quote the following paragraph from your post, a few words of wisdom - reading comprehension is essential in forum discussions.
This has nothing to do with what I said. What I'm saying is that a Star Trek game should resemble Star Trek, you know that actual franchise the game is suposedly based on? Throughout the entire history of the shows, Starfleet has never utilized cloaking. They're the white knights of the franchise, the ones that don't feel the need to hide and work from the shadows, the straightforward ones.
You try to interpret your wishfull thinking as hard facts in terms of how the Federation would react if it saw the destruction of the RSE (which is BTW not destroyed, at least not yet). How about Aennik Okeg, that Saurian dude that's suposed to be the President of the Federation and just got re-elected? How about his clear statement that the Federation doesn't consider the treaty void and that as a political way of extending a hand of friendship they'd adhere to the treaty even though there's turmoil in the RSE?
Or are we just going to ingore that part because it doesn't further your agenda as oposed to facts squeezed out of thin air about how the Federation would react to this, because you said so. :rolleyes:
I just love it how people think that this game based on an established franchise with basic ground rules should mold to their own whims, or should I even say utter player incompetence.
A Star Trek game should resemble the shows at all time, because that's what makes it Star Trek. There's waaay to many "but it's 2410, blah, blah" going on around here. SW:ToR is set 3000 years before the movies and the game still looks and feels 100% Star Wars.
Let's say a company makes a "Star Trek" game set in the 35-th century and they change everything - Starfleet Officers wear camouflage uniforms, we use tanks and battlemechs for gorund combat, we ceased using energy weapons because the Borg adapt so we use machine guns, the ships look like Matrix meets Mass Effect......so how's that game Star Trek, eh? Catch my drift yet? Because that's what some of you guys want to turn the game into. If you don't like Star Trek within it's established ground rules, just stop playing the game and stop the infernal whining already.
We Trust the Romulan Republic so much that we grant their members acess to our ships, except for the T5 ships (so the flagships) and let their fleets fly to the Center of Starfleet, to Earth (as we can fly to new Romulus). We fight together on every front and i dont see why they could have anything against us using cloaking devices? We even helped them built New Romulus.
I don´t really care if we have the cloak or not because we have enough good cruisers so that they are not really important but i see no reason why we could not have them
That is why the federation has limited cloaking.
R.I.P
1. The "perceived" Blue Plague (aka vocal minority of Feds) that want all the tricks for their ships.
2. DPS, specifically the bonus DPS from the decloak phase...
The rest of these threads - treaty gone, treaty here, treaty in flux, executive order, ignored executive order, Section 31's usual ignorance of Federation Law, etc. etc., are all covers / guises / rationales to get either 1 or 2...
Just like (and I'll admit) I play lore games as rationales to get me an endgame Connie.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
The wiki also gives us this gem:
"Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships."
As for the hyperbolic going-on about how it will devalue the Klingons and Romulans....
1) The cloaking device only gives normal cloak, not battle cloak-and we all know which one is more useful.
2) It uses up a console slot. With all these powerful Ultra Rare consoles floating around from Fleets and crafting.
Considering the niche usefulness of sacrificing a console slot in exchange for a non-battle cloak when we have so many UR consoles floating out there now, I really doubt it would be a game breaker. As is, I rarely see cloaking devices being used on the three Fed ships that can already use it.
IMO the arguments that this would be game-breaking in regards to the in-game lore and/or gameplay just don't hold water.