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Acetons....when are they coming to FED side?

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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    You are correct, but no one item should completely hinder a fight if spammed either. Not acknowledging that this console can be spammed faster then Fed can react to a dropped AA and and ambushing KDF player is what is being heavily avoided.

    An unprepared Fed would be dead regardless of the AA being there or not from an ambushing Klingon.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    spam is relative to the effect, not what you think is a long cool down, and 45 seconds is not long compared to the 2-3minute standard of most consoles, on top of that, you can get two of them, and yes if there are more then 2 being used it becomes an issue about the item as how it is being spammed for area denial instead of just an offensive console is is being used to lock off area and split up teams through the sheer amount of hp and lasting power it has.

    Also it doesn't matter if the KDF can ambush, it matters if the AA gives them a far easier way to ambush without even needing to be seen, and that is extraordinarily unbalanced.

    Your assumptions are that they are exaggerations, as you keep telling me I need torpedoes and kinetic weapons, which I am not speced to use. Think about it, if Cryptic expected every player to use a torpedo, wouldn't they have a "Space Weapons" skill point tab instead of a "projectile weapons and energy weapons tab"? I shouldn't have to use the weapon you want, I should be able to use the fleet dual heavy cannons and elite consoles x 5 I have to easily vaporize them, but according to you, having the best and the highest damage weapon types in the GAME, doesn't earn me any credit to being able to destroy AA's any quicker. Its ludicrous.

    So because a game actually makes you change up tactics to defeat foes is ludicrous? You don't have to be specced for torps to even use them either..Torps can be effective if used at the right time regardless of your skill points in them.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Everything is spammed in STO, from spacebar spamming Bfaw+Dem+AtB warriors to ApO+CRF+Dem spike pilots and pet spamming mine GW spewing teams.
    Spam is the lifes blood of combat.
    All AA does is counter energy attack spam, and only when it is fired upon to start the process.

    Its a Tar baby trap, nothing more or less.


    I

    I have no issue with spam as long as it is destructible. AA's are not if you use primarily energy weapons. I would rather get hit by a 30k+ Nukara mine, then a AA, one I can shoot down without much trouble if I see it, the other requires 100% focus to attack, which allows a lazy griefing klingon to take advantage of me trying to know out one of their nets.
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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I have no issue with spam as long as it is destructible. AA's are not if you use primarily energy weapons. I would rather get hit by a 30k+ Nukara mine, then a AA, one I can shoot down without much trouble if I see it, the other requires 100% focus to attack, which allows a lazy griefing klingon to take advantage of me trying to know out one of their nets.

    So you're okay with BFAW even though it can't be destroyed.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    An unprepared Fed would be dead regardless of the AA being there or not from an ambushing Klingon.

    Nothing that I said about the fed ever gave the inclination that they were unprepared?, my statement was that the fed was disadvantaged because he is forced to attack two to three or more targets that can exist in multiple directions, while a Klingon only has to worry about one direction, cause there is nothing to worry about but the players themselves.
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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Nothing that I said about the fed ever gave the inclination that they were unprepared?, my statement was that the fed was disadvantaged because he is forced to attack two to three or more targets that can exist in multiple directions, while a Klingon only has to worry about one direction, cause there is nothing to worry about but the players themselves.

    You seem to forgot pets, mines, heavy torps, ETC.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
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    aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I shouldn't have to use the weapon you want, I should be able to use the fleet dual heavy cannons and elite consoles x 5 I have to easily vaporize them, but according to you, having the best and the highest damage weapon types in the GAME, doesn't earn me any credit to being able to destroy AA's any quicker. Its ludicrous.

    There's enough concentrated fail in this argument to take out half the Q continuum. So your entire position is that the rest of the game must be configured entirely around your ship armament preferences? Yeah, that's ludicrous alright.

    I'd think anyone that full of themselves would have spontaneously exploded long ago.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Nothing that I said about the fed ever gave the inclination that they were unprepared?, my statement was that the fed was disadvantaged because he is forced to attack two to three or more targets that can exist in multiple directions, while a Klingon only has to worry about one direction, cause there is nothing to worry about but the players themselves.

    KvK existed. N'vak existed.
    The queues have been RvB'd.

    What is this about the KDF player not having to have worried about it or not having to worry about it?

    It's not much different than the Stealth arguments.

    KDF had to deal with Stealth. Feds hid in FvF and generally didn't have to deal with it, even though they were best equipped to deal with it. Along comes LoR, Feds are forced to deal with it - and - somehow it's still the KDF bogeyman rather than it being the Fed Roms with both Feds & Fed Roms being best equipped to deal with it.

    It's a sheltered existence that some Feds have been operating in...where part of it should have died with LoR but continued on and part of it should have died with the RvBing of the queues - but will probably continue on for years to come.
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    So because a game actually makes you change up tactics to defeat foes is ludicrous? You don't have to be specced for torps to even use them either..Torps can be effective if used at the right time regardless of your skill points in them.

    Paying 500zen isn't a realistic change of tactics. Effective to you, doesn't mean the same thing as Effective to me. I am a min/maxer, and I don't build builds around a griefers console, if they want to use such a low brow weapon that is on them, just don't try and make it sound like using them is skillful or even should be rewarded with the kind effectiveness they have. The fact you recommend me using torpedoes and not being speced into them you make it sound like I am only fighting the AA. lol
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    You seem to forgot pets, mines, heavy torps, ETC.

    mines, and heavy torps go down if the wind blows, pets, and everything else besides AA are easily dispatchable on sight. AA's require concentrated firepower.
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    There's enough concentrated fail in this argument to take out half the Q continuum. So your entire position is that the rest of the game must be configured entirely around your ship armament preferences? Yeah, that's ludicrous alright.

    I'd think anyone that full of themselves would have spontaneously exploded long ago.

    Hyperbole, its a word. This has nothing to do with the game, it has to do with an object that does not fit into the parameters in which the game pace is set at, and rewards the less skilled with a zone to hide in and grief from.
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I have no issue with spam as long as it is destructible. AA's are not if you use primarily energy weapons. I would rather get hit by a 30k+ Nukara mine, then a AA, one I can shoot down without much trouble if I see it, the other requires 100% focus to attack, which allows a lazy griefing klingon to take advantage of me trying to know out one of their nets.

    AA can be shot down without much trouble, but it does require thinking to not set it off with energy weapons.
    Many attacks require a distinct counter. Shields weakened by attacks require heals and resist buff, weakened Hull requires heals and resists, SNB requires ST, Scramble requires ST, Plasma burn and EWP require HE, and AA is no different in that it requires a counter in the form of Kinetic damage to be destroyed.
    Kinetic damage found in KCB, unbuffed torps, Torpedo Spread torps, Tractor Beam Repulse, anything that does kinetic damage. It does not require a special counter, only the ability to inflict the se ond choice of attack used in STO.

    One is not required to design a build that has a counter to AA. Just like one is not required to have a build designed to counter tractor beam, or Scramble sensors, or any attack in combat.
    It is surely unfair to call any power OP just because one did not bother to carry its counter, especially when said counters are not rare or hard to find.

    Like any attack if you are worried you may encounter it, then prepare for it before you go in.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    KvK existed. N'vak existed.
    The queues have been RvB'd.

    What is this about the KDF player not having to have worried about it or not having to worry about it?

    It's not much different than the Stealth arguments.

    KDF had to deal with Stealth. Feds hid in FvF and generally didn't have to deal with it, even though they were best equipped to deal with it. Along comes LoR, Feds are forced to deal with it - and - somehow it's still the KDF bogeyman rather than it being the Fed Roms with both Feds & Fed Roms being best equipped to deal with it.

    It's a sheltered existence that some Feds have been operating in...where part of it should have died with LoR but continued on and part of it should have died with the RvBing of the queues - but will probably continue on for years to come.

    Why are you even pointing to the que types to explain how well balanced an AA is?

    Stealth argument? Ironic since AA's can detect stealth, and attack it.

    I will be honest with you, I have no idea what you said at the end because it sounds like you were upset you can't play out the Klingon imperialistic roll play out, which is kind of strange you take it so personal because you aren't a real Klingon in real life. To each his own I guess.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Paying 500zen isn't a realistic change of tactics. Effective to you, doesn't mean the same thing as Effective to me. I am a min/maxer, and I don't build builds around a griefers console, if they want to use such a low brow weapon that is on them, just don't try and make it sound like using them is skillful or even should be rewarded with the kind effectiveness they have. The fact you recommend me using torpedoes and not being speced into them you make it sound like I am only fighting the AA. lol

    Min/max...PvP? PvP's not some choreographed dance that's always the same that you can statically min/max for...you need to be able to adapt. Each time you face a foe or group of foes, it may be something different. The static min/max build might be great - it might be useless.

    A lot of puggers run into that issue while teams will generally have it covered - because they know that one ship can't deal with everything, but that as a team they cover most things allowing each individual to min/max more. The pugger has the unrealistic expectation that they should either be able to do everything or that folks shouldn't be able to do something that their precious build can't cover.

    It's definitely true that somebody can attempt to cover as many possibilities as they can...leaving their build to be all but neutered in the average situation, but that's where it simply comes down to thinking about what's likely - having a build that can adapt, including carrying additional gear for such situations.

    And in the end, it's a MMO...there's other players out there, make friends - play with friends - you'll be able to focus more while covering more.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I will be honest with you, I have no idea...

    That's why people are trying to help you out. There is a very helpful community in STO.
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Hyperbole, its a word. This has nothing to do with the game, it has to do with an object that does not fit into the parameters in which the game pace is set at, and rewards the less skilled with a zone to hide in and grief from.

    Like an all energy weapon using BfawDemAtBMarion spammer flying in circles around a target mashing a spacebar? That style of attack seems fairly non-skilled to me, yet its allowed and even rewarded.

    The counters to AA have been given ad nauseum. Its not our fault they have been ignored by those who do not wish to use them.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Ah, N'vak. My apoligies. I confused the name with Nakura.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    AA can be shot down without much trouble, but it does require thinking to not set it off with energy weapons.
    Many attacks require a distinct counter. Shields weakened by attacks require heals and resist buff, weakened Hull requires heals and resists, SNB requires ST, Scramble requires ST, Plasma burn and EWP require HE, and AA is no different in that it requires a counter in the form of Kinetic damage to be destroyed.
    Kinetic damage found in KCB, unbuffed torps, Torpedo Spread torps, Tractor Beam Repulse, anything that does kinetic damage. It does not require a special counter, only the ability to inflict the se ond choice of attack used in STO.

    One is not required to design a build that has a counter to AA. Just like one is not required to have a build designed to counter tractor beam, or Scramble sensors, or any attack in combat.
    It is surely unfair to call any power OP just because one did not bother to carry its counter, especially when said counters are not rare or hard to find.

    Like any attack if you are worried you may encounter it, then prepare for it before you go in.


    Without much trouble for you, not me, my weapons face the front, and do not fire omnidirectional, and with all due respect I find that that is a higher quality skill set then spamming faw or whatever other 100% cant miss shotgunned projectiles. So what if it is tactically advantageous in the meta, the idea is to gravitate toward a more logical meta, not "well it works I better use it herpaderp" pattern. If you want to say I am wrong about that, then we are on two separate planets. I believe in skills and tactics, not excuses, which the majority of I heard so far are just poor rationalization to use cheesy tactics with little regard for actual battle tactics. "Change your weapon to this nerf bat so you can kill that one thing, and it doesn't matter if you have a mark XIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII weapon what matters is that you need something that with think you need, just because it happens to be current meta. Give me a break.
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Since when has AA had stealth detection? I've flown by AA's cloaked and never had them so much as twitch at me.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    senatorvreenaksenatorvreenak Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~Askray
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Min/max...PvP? PvP's not some choreographed dance that's always the same that you can statically min/max for...you need to be able to adapt. Each time you face a foe or group of foes, it may be something different. The static min/max build might be great - it might be useless.

    A lot of puggers run into that issue while teams will generally have it covered - because they know that one ship can't deal with everything, but that as a team they cover most things allowing each individual to min/max more. The pugger has the unrealistic expectation that they should either be able to do everything or that folks shouldn't be able to do something that their precious build can't cover.

    It's definitely true that somebody can attempt to cover as many possibilities as they can...leaving their build to be all but neutered in the average situation, but that's where it simply comes down to thinking about what's likely - having a build that can adapt, including carrying additional gear for such situations.

    And in the end, it's a MMO...there's other players out there, make friends - play with friends - you'll be able to focus more while covering more.

    So I take you you find 500 zen a fight an optimal route. Got it.
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    sulfrustriplesulfrustriple Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Paying 500zen isn't a realistic change of tactics. Effective to you, doesn't mean the same thing as Effective to me. I am a min/maxer, and I don't build builds around a griefers console, if they want to use such a low brow weapon that is on them, just don't try and make it sound like using them is skillful or even should be rewarded with the kind effectiveness they have. The fact you recommend me using torpedoes and not being speced into them you make it sound like I am only fighting the AA. lol

    Well, your replies basically show these arguments for what they are. Specious. Acetons are highly destructible. You simply prefer not to use the tools to accomplish that mission. The game is about choices. One can min/max or one can choose to be a "renaissance man" that is good at a lot of things instead of an expert at one. One choice doesn't invalidate the other. But it also doesn't justify changing the game just to suit a particular choice of alternatives.

    Qapla'
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Since when has AA had stealth detection? I've flown by AA's cloaked and never had them so much as twitch at me.

    They're helpful in a few ways...

    The siphon stream will appear, letting you know there is a cloaker there. Lets you know that you might want to Sensor Scan, Tachyon Detection Field, Tachyon Detection Grid, Charged Particle Burst, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Photonic Shockwave, Singularity Jump, etc, etc, etc.

    Somebody running low Aux that sits inside the range of one could have their Aux drained and when it zeroes out...no Aux, no cloak.

    Not entirely sure on this one, but it should be the case - somebody with a Standard Cloak rather than a Battle Cloak or Enhanced Battle Cloak in taking damage from the periodic pulse would be put in Red Alert and thus drop from cloak.
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~Askray
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    So I take you you find 500 zen a fight an optimal route. Got it.

    Joe Random: The sky is blue.
    Random Joe: Why do you think the sky is green?
    Joe Random: But I said the sky is blue.
    Random Joe: I don't get why you think the sky is green.
    Joe Random: It's blue.
    Random Joe: I look at the sky, and it's not green.

    Is what it is generally like discussing anything with you.
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Well, your replies basically show these arguments for what they are. Specious. Acetons are highly destructible. You simply prefer not to use the tools to accomplish that mission. The game is about choices. One can min/max or one can choose to be a "renaissance man" that is good at a lot of things instead of one. One choice doesn't invalidate the other. But it also doesn't justify changing the game just to suit a particular choice of alternatives.

    Qapla'

    Why should I abide by your beliefs that the skills I choose are wrong, or should be a hindrance to the success of my play style? You seem to want to put anyone who wants to kill AA's in a box of you must have x or else you wont win, even if my setup is typically harder to operate then something you can point in any direction and get 80-100% effective dps.
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    senatorvreenaksenatorvreenak Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~Askray
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Without much trouble for you, not me, my weapons face the front, and do not fire omnidirectional, and with all due respect I find that that is a higher quality skill set then spamming faw or whatever other 100% cant miss shotgunned projectiles. So what if it is tactically advantageous in the meta, the idea is to gravitate toward a more logical meta, not "well it works I better use it herpaderp" pattern. If you want to say I am wrong about that, then we are on two separate planets. I believe in skills and tactics, not excuses, which the majority of I heard so far are just poor rationalization to use cheesy tactics with little regard for actual battle tactics. "Change your weapon to this nerf bat so you can kill that one thing, and it doesn't matter if you have a mark XIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII weapon what matters is that you need something that with think you need, just because it happens to be current meta. Give me a break.

    All my weapons face forward in a 45degree arc. Only the KCB and my turrets are ominidirectional. When I encounter a AA I stop firing my energy weapons, target the AA with torps and my KCB manually, it dies and I move on.
    Skills and tactics combined with knowledge and action. No herpaderp or cheese.

    Just like if someone EWPs me I hit HE to counter it. Or if someone Scrambles me or SNBs me, I would use ST to counter it. Yet I dont have ST on my build as it does not fit so I am screwed if target by Scramble or SNB.
    The difference is I dont go on the forums all upset that I died to something I didnt have a handy counter to. I accept my choice in build design and that I can not have counters to all attacks.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    They're helpful in a few ways...

    The siphon stream will appear, letting you know there is a cloaker there. Lets you know that you might want to Sensor Scan, Tachyon Detection Field, Tachyon Detection Grid, Charged Particle Burst, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Photonic Shockwave, Singularity Jump, etc, etc, etc.

    Somebody running low Aux that sits inside the range of one could have their Aux drained and when it zeroes out...no Aux, no cloak.

    Not entirely sure on this one, but it should be the case - somebody with a Standard Cloak rather than a Battle Cloak or Enhanced Battle Cloak in taking damage from the periodic pulse would be put in Red Alert and thus drop from cloak.

    Surely this happens only if they AA has been previuosly activated.

    I've flown right by these things without a hiccup. Never saw any drain or some such.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Joe Random: The sky is blue.
    Random Joe: Why do you think the sky is green?
    Joe Random: But I said the sky is blue.
    Random Joe: I don't get why you think the sky is green.
    Joe Random: It's blue.
    Random Joe: I look at the sky, and it's not green.

    Is what it is generally like discussing anything with you.

    It only appears that way because that is your perception. There are actual factors in between that seem to not connect with you because you are selectively ignoring on purpose or not. Rather then focusing on the entire fight, you limit the perception squarely down to the tools that solve the problem, without thinking outside of the box is the meta should even work the way it currently does in the first place. I didn't even get to the point of letting the AA be twice as strong in its ability, as long as Cryptic dropped it down to mine health.
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