I don't think it's so much a waste...least not in pugs...it slows probes for the borg stf's...it does a lot of damage to faw'ing Voth and Tholians...haven't really used one against the Undine.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
So what does this mean? Cryptic has essentially pushed all players to full energy weapons. I would say the majority of players don't slot a good torp anymore. A lot probably don't slot the kinetic cutting beam. So Cryptic has designed the game and pushed players to all energy weapons making the AA even harder to deal with.
Fact is: AA is super OP given Cryptics meta game focused mostly on energy weapons.
Yeah yeah - it's a players choice to not slot a torp - but when the Devs make torps almost useless - it's not reasonable to expect most players to us them.
Yes, it's players' choice to be ignorant. Cryptic didn't push anyone into anything, I don't remember Captain Geko comming at my door and forcing me to only use energy weapons or be banned from STO. I still have at least one torpedo launcher on all my builds.
It's funny though - you were the one complaining and criticizing them for turning STO into 'Spacebar Online' and here you're basically endorsing that same behavior.
Yes, people will slot torps or KCB or JS, etc.....if they want to be able to counter AA. It's far more mature and interesting than comming to the boards and whining to the devs every single time a single build can't do absolutely everything in the game angainst everyone.
I'm wondering if there's some bug with DOFF'd AtD...but other than that, yeah - torps are just downright evil right now.
Oh yeah, if you are speced for them primarily sure, and can afford to run a torpedo boat. However if you don't move quickly after you delivered your salvos, you become chop liver. Ok for smaller ships, not ok for larger ships.
After Quinn kills J'mpok in single combat the KDF will become part of the Federation anyway, so it does not matter.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
But the recent FE showed us that during combat, Quinn's usually still sitting down.
Yeah, but it is that sneaky Jorel* symbiont that does the actual deed.
*Does not know if Jorel is the Trill or the symbiont, and the same for Quinn: his name is Jorel Quinn.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Oh yeah, if you are speced for them primarily sure, and can afford to run a torpedo boat. However if you don't move quickly after you delivered your salvos, you become chop liver. Ok for smaller ships, not ok for larger ships.
Targ manure, all of it.
There are a multitude of ways to use a multitude of torpedoes effectively, with ships of any size, though tactical captains and ships tend to have a distinct advantage in that regard, because without any torpedo powers, then yes they do tend to be pretty TRIBBLE.
But the most efficient killing combo around in PvP today is Beam Overload + Torpedo Spread.
Targ manure, all of it.
There are a multitude of ways to use a multitude of torpedoes effectively, with ships of any size, though tactical captains and ships tend to have a distinct advantage in that regard, because without any torpedo powers, then yes they do tend to be pretty TRIBBLE.
But the most efficient killing combo around in PvP today is Beam Overload + Torpedo Spread.
I like how you say all of it, then backtrack. Well done sir.
I still see it as little more as trollololol material from EBCers. It's like Warp Shadows. Having that EBC simply allows you to enjoy the lol part more without worrying about being shot at while laughing.
On two Flow/Part guys I have on the other hand...it actually does something and compliments the build rather than just serving as a means to a pretty hefty lol.
Cause KCB or torps...AA's gone. Doesn't matter if it can be dropped out every 45s if it doesn't even last a second on the map. Heck, even Probes will fire torps to blow the AAs up rather than killing themselves against them...maybe the Feds could learn something from them.
Well you play lots in an EBC ship and you know that the biggest problem for them is the stupid fire at all targets on the map in all directions at all times - AKA - Beam-fire-at-will
As an EBCer you have no shields and are extremely vunerable to BFAW. The AA adds very good protection and as a great counter to BFAW ripping your hull apart - especially with some of the hits 1 beam from a Scimitar will throw your way.
It would be useful for Fed/rommie EBCers but all around - giving it to the Feds would equal WAY too much AA spam and not be a good thing.
Flying a Fed Torp bomber in PvP the Aceton has never bothered me - as Roach said earlier 'Torp spread doesn't miss'
Oh yeah, if you are speced for them primarily sure, and can afford to run a torpedo boat. However if you don't move quickly after you delivered your salvos, you become chop liver. Ok for smaller ships, not ok for larger ships.
Torpedo spread NEVER misses. Lethal to players and AA alike.
Well you play lots in an EBC ship and you know that the biggest problem for them is the stupid fire at all targets on the map in all directions at all times - AKA - Beam-fire-at-will
As an EBCer you have no shields and are extremely vunerable to BFAW. The AA adds very good protection and as a great counter to BFAW ripping your hull apart - especially with some of the hits 1 beam from a Scimitar will throw your way.
It would be useful for Fed/rommie EBCers but all around - giving it to the Feds would equal WAY too much AA spam and not be a good thing.
Flying a Fed Torp bomber in PvP the Aceton has never bothered me - as Roach said earlier 'Torp spread doesn't miss'
It's uh usually a case of flying around with 130-150%+ Defense while cloaked. That's a 60-54% or less chance to be hit from somebody sporting Accurate, 9 Targeting, [Acc]x3 Beams, and the Nukara Console. Folks tend to skip the console and run [Acc]x2...so it's more like 54-48% or less chance to be hit.
It's usually the pesky Sci that are an issue or other cloakers that tractor-park, BO, and unload clickies.
Sure, like any targetable object it has the chance to draw that particular random FAW where they haven't targeted you and are relying on spacebar automatic target selection...so it can be helpful there. So can a mines or Hyper-Plasma...all sorts of things can be dropped out as chaff to eat up FAW spam - let it hit all the 1hp things instead of you or others on your side.
FedRom T'varo are better off with the TDF than AA...and as long as it can be used, that's going to be the case. The CD of the TDF is reduced both by [SciCdr] Deflectors and the 2pc MACO - so even ignoring the console swapping exploit, folks can work TDF cloaked with a reduced CD to spot enemy cloakers. As long as it's not telegraphed like somebody that likes to pat themselves on the back for using it (I mean, c'mon - it is just as loud as the the TDG) - it provides a definite edge for somebody looking to unload a TS3 of E-Bios with some OKS against that naked cloaked hull.
Heck, how about a FedRom Caprimul that TDFs and then cloaks, flying around with that additional boost. Best snoopship in the game, imho.
AA...I use it on Willard to troll, like I said. You see 2-3 Fed farmers in Ker'rat FAWing away in the midst of a bunch of Tac Cubes, Cubes, Sphers, Probes...drop an AA and just see if they're paying any attention or if they blow themselves up. Won't even bother with certain folks, cause they'll obliterate it within a couple of secs.
The damage hits shields first, but it can be a trip when a Tac Sci guy drops it (high Aux, high PartGens) after doing the APA/APO...it can obliterate a cloaked ship pretty fast because shields are down from somebody just laying into it with everything they've got. It's like I pointed out the Warp Shadows - most folks ignore them - but there are some folks that will use everything they've got against them, blowing all their buffs and debuffs - it's amazing.
Most cases where I've seen folks complaining about AA's being spammed...there have been perhaps 2-3 AAs on the field - it's just that everybody throwing everything they've got at them besides kinetic.
I'm no PvP Guru any more than I'm a PvE Guru by any means...I'll be the first to point out that I suck at the game unless somebody else beats me to it, then I'll be the first to agree with them instead.
But I've been pushing the TDF <-> AA trade since it first became noticeable that the TDF could be used while cloaked...it gives the Feds a massive advantage over the KDF, and no prideful thing about the Feds having taken too much already would leave me sitting there holding on to AA (which we keep telling the Feds is such a joke) when a trade could be made for TDF.
But I can definitely see the issue that might arise from giving it to the Feds with the RvB queues - the same folks that the KDF might have been trolling all this time, might end up on their team being trolled by the other team...lol. Yes, damn it - it would still be funny...lol...meh.
Torpedo spread NEVER misses. Lethal to players and AA alike.
Why would you tell me something the majority of people already know? The point is that AA's act as area denial, and realistically Klinks can just wait till someone flies into their net of AA's. Or drop a screen around themselves to wall out attackers, and no single person is going to take out 3+ AA's on the field that are staggered & clustered, the moment they target gets in range to shoot its already too late, as all of the rest are draining in omnidirections, and the Klingons are waiting on the other side for you to be on alpha recharge, and staring right at your tail pipe ready to ambush you.
I like how you say all of it, then backtrack. Well done sir.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. :rolleyes:
But if you wan't me to break it down for you.
- Being primarily specced for torpedoes required: False
- Torpedo boat required: False
- Required to move quickly after deliving salvo's or die a horrible death: False
- Ok for small ships, not ok for large ships: False
Why would you tell me something the majority of people already know? The point is that AA's act as area denial, and realistically Klinks can just wait till someone flies into their net of AA's. Or drop a screen around themselves to wall out attackers, and no single person is going to take out 3+ AA's on the field that are staggered & clustered, the moment they target gets in range to shoot its already too late, as all of the rest are draining in omnidirections, and the Klingons are waiting on the other side for you to be on alpha recharge, and staring right at your tail pipe ready to ambush you.
More complete and utter nonsense.
1.) Only an unobservant fool is going to fly straight into a "net" of them... they aren't cloaked or stealthed.
2.) Assuming they are already deployed pre-emptively they really aren't going to deny any area against any half competent well rounded team.
3.) Dropping a screen is nice idea in theory, but such coordination is only possible with a premade, and even then tractor beam repulsors, scramble sensors or antimatter spread will easily neutralize it.
Or god forbid if you should fly an Akira and have access to the torpedo point defense console. :P
Not to mention that pretty much everyone who is half decent at PvP is packing EptE and can quickly withdraw to a safe distance.
1.) Only an unobservant fool is going to fly straight into a "net" of them... they aren't cloaked or stealthed.
2.) Assuming they are already deployed pre-emptively they really aren't going to deny any area against any half competent well rounded team.
3.) Dropping a screen is nice idea in theory, but such coordination is only possible with a premade, and even then tractor beam repulsors, scramble sensors or antimatter spread will easily neutralize it.
Or god forbid if you should fly an Akira and have access to the torpedo point defense console. :P
Not to mention that pretty much everyone who is half decent at PvP is packing EptE and can quickly withdraw to a safe distance.
Are you even interested in saying something of quality? or do you just respond to me and everyone you disagree with professing how perfect your battle tactics are and expecting people to take your bloviation at face value? I'm sure you think you are some kind of gaming General Patton, all responses given, I don't put much stock in it, and its not about flying into a net, it is about a net dropped around, and through , and your opinions on abilities to use have long recharge times and half of them are useless in pvp. They are one off tactics that you are trying to rationalize as a challenge to your boon.
The most AA a single ayer can field is two. If you drop a third the first self.destructs.
the point isn't when one or two are used in an area, its when 3+ are used, you cannot kill them fast enough to prevent them from becoming a problem when a team starts saturating where multiple people are fighting it becomes impossible to bring the battle to any logical conclusion other then A) Dying as a whole group. or Running as a whole group. Having zero chance to fight back against a group of attackers because they have more lethal spam then you do is ludicrous. I built my ship to fight in, and stay in the fight, not to run away from a group of AA dropping cloakers.
If you come across a group of them, have your group stop spamming FAW and you can dispatch them easily.
I use cannons, and not beams, except for KCB / APB, even then I run BO not faw. I am anti multiple target as regarding to skill as I believe having to actually point at the target are the way to become good at dog fighting, as opposed to something that fires in a full 41250 degrees (Spherical). Some people think I am head strong and should be rocking the cliche' 50k+ build faw, but I refuse, personally I think faw should be nerfed,or cannon abilities increased.
the point isn't when one or two are used in an area, its when 3+ are used, you cannot kill them fast enough to prevent them from becoming a problem when a team starts saturating where multiple people are fighting it becomes impossible to bring the battle to any logical conclusion other then A) Dying as a whole group. or Running as a whole group. Having zero chance to fight back against a group of attackers because they have more lethal spam then you do is ludicrous. I built my ship to fight in, and stay in the fight, not to run away from a group of AA dropping cloakers.
I feel your pain when ever I get hit by more than one energy weapon or torpedo or Gravity Well or Sub nuke or Tipler or TB spamming pets or Tetgas spamming pets or anything from fighting against more than one assailant in combat.
How dare these player use teams.
I can't speak for the creators of any other threads or posts, other than things I've posted asking for here and there...too many times to remember. But in the end, it's delusional hope. Why would you want to kill that, mimey, why? If you take away that delusional hope...well...there's no point in playing. :P
Fair point, but at least with most ideas there is a point to them. Some merit that says 'oh hey, this is a good idea' and worth considering. Stuff like this, honestly makes me wonder sometimes if it is borderline troll posts, designed with the intent of causing forum drama. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
Anyways...the most AAs one person can have out at once is 2. The most AAs that can affect any person is 2. So at best you will be affected by 2 AAs. Now the drain is variable depending on the person's spec, but the damage is minimal at best if they are not shot at by any form of energy weapon.
What is truly so hard about using a KCB though? It's seriously one of the most commonly used rep weapons I see. If not that, why no torpedoes, even a simple one? AAs do NOT move, so they have 0 defense (if that of course applies to them). KCBs aren't some super-rare, ultra-expensive item, anyone can somewhat easily afford them and equip it to any ship, even if it isn't built for damage. The Dyson torpedo can be brutal, and I see people using Proton Barrage often enough, so clearly they have the torpedo equipped then as well.
Originalspock, you are talking about a hypothetical situation of 'a whole net of AAs placed extremely well' basically. So that level of coordination with AAs is an extremely rarely seen thing. The only way you would ever see that kind of usage would be if you are fighting against a premade, and honestly, AAs would be the least of your worries at that point.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
And again, like I knew it would be, I'll say this once more: This whole thing is being based off of something that happened in PvP. As I've long heard oh-so-many times, 'PvP doesn't matter', so this whole thing is moot because after all, this whole thread is because of something that happened in PvP.
Actually this thread was started because a player was too daft to not get caught in accidental fire while watching a fight in cloak.
I feel your pain when ever I get hit by more than one energy weapon or torpedo or Gravity Well or Sub nuke or Tipler or TB spamming pets or Tetgas spamming pets or anything from fighting against more than one assailant in combat.
How dare these player use teams.
Comments
I'm wondering if there's some bug with DOFF'd AtD...but other than that, yeah - torps are just downright evil right now.
I don't think it's so much a waste...least not in pugs...it slows probes for the borg stf's...it does a lot of damage to faw'ing Voth and Tholians...haven't really used one against the Undine.
Yes, it's players' choice to be ignorant. Cryptic didn't push anyone into anything, I don't remember Captain Geko comming at my door and forcing me to only use energy weapons or be banned from STO. I still have at least one torpedo launcher on all my builds.
It's funny though - you were the one complaining and criticizing them for turning STO into 'Spacebar Online' and here you're basically endorsing that same behavior.
Yes, people will slot torps or KCB or JS, etc.....if they want to be able to counter AA. It's far more mature and interesting than comming to the boards and whining to the devs every single time a single build can't do absolutely everything in the game angainst everyone.
I don't usually like to encourage parents to spank their kids but.
Oh yeah, if you are speced for them primarily sure, and can afford to run a torpedo boat. However if you don't move quickly after you delivered your salvos, you become chop liver. Ok for smaller ships, not ok for larger ships.
No.
No they don't.
No.
But the recent FE showed us that during combat, Quinn's usually still sitting down.
*Does not know if Jorel is the Trill or the symbiont, and the same for Quinn: his name is Jorel Quinn.
Targ manure, all of it.
There are a multitude of ways to use a multitude of torpedoes effectively, with ships of any size, though tactical captains and ships tend to have a distinct advantage in that regard, because without any torpedo powers, then yes they do tend to be pretty TRIBBLE.
But the most efficient killing combo around in PvP today is Beam Overload + Torpedo Spread.
I like how you say all of it, then backtrack. Well done sir.
Well you play lots in an EBC ship and you know that the biggest problem for them is the stupid fire at all targets on the map in all directions at all times - AKA - Beam-fire-at-will
As an EBCer you have no shields and are extremely vunerable to BFAW. The AA adds very good protection and as a great counter to BFAW ripping your hull apart - especially with some of the hits 1 beam from a Scimitar will throw your way.
It would be useful for Fed/rommie EBCers but all around - giving it to the Feds would equal WAY too much AA spam and not be a good thing.
Flying a Fed Torp bomber in PvP the Aceton has never bothered me - as Roach said earlier 'Torp spread doesn't miss'
Torpedo spread NEVER misses. Lethal to players and AA alike.
R.I.P
It's uh usually a case of flying around with 130-150%+ Defense while cloaked. That's a 60-54% or less chance to be hit from somebody sporting Accurate, 9 Targeting, [Acc]x3 Beams, and the Nukara Console. Folks tend to skip the console and run [Acc]x2...so it's more like 54-48% or less chance to be hit.
It's usually the pesky Sci that are an issue or other cloakers that tractor-park, BO, and unload clickies.
Sure, like any targetable object it has the chance to draw that particular random FAW where they haven't targeted you and are relying on spacebar automatic target selection...so it can be helpful there. So can a mines or Hyper-Plasma...all sorts of things can be dropped out as chaff to eat up FAW spam - let it hit all the 1hp things instead of you or others on your side.
FedRom T'varo are better off with the TDF than AA...and as long as it can be used, that's going to be the case. The CD of the TDF is reduced both by [SciCdr] Deflectors and the 2pc MACO - so even ignoring the console swapping exploit, folks can work TDF cloaked with a reduced CD to spot enemy cloakers. As long as it's not telegraphed like somebody that likes to pat themselves on the back for using it (I mean, c'mon - it is just as loud as the the TDG) - it provides a definite edge for somebody looking to unload a TS3 of E-Bios with some OKS against that naked cloaked hull.
Heck, how about a FedRom Caprimul that TDFs and then cloaks, flying around with that additional boost. Best snoopship in the game, imho.
AA...I use it on Willard to troll, like I said. You see 2-3 Fed farmers in Ker'rat FAWing away in the midst of a bunch of Tac Cubes, Cubes, Sphers, Probes...drop an AA and just see if they're paying any attention or if they blow themselves up. Won't even bother with certain folks, cause they'll obliterate it within a couple of secs.
The damage hits shields first, but it can be a trip when a Tac Sci guy drops it (high Aux, high PartGens) after doing the APA/APO...it can obliterate a cloaked ship pretty fast because shields are down from somebody just laying into it with everything they've got. It's like I pointed out the Warp Shadows - most folks ignore them - but there are some folks that will use everything they've got against them, blowing all their buffs and debuffs - it's amazing.
Most cases where I've seen folks complaining about AA's being spammed...there have been perhaps 2-3 AAs on the field - it's just that everybody throwing everything they've got at them besides kinetic.
I'm no PvP Guru any more than I'm a PvE Guru by any means...I'll be the first to point out that I suck at the game unless somebody else beats me to it, then I'll be the first to agree with them instead.
But I've been pushing the TDF <-> AA trade since it first became noticeable that the TDF could be used while cloaked...it gives the Feds a massive advantage over the KDF, and no prideful thing about the Feds having taken too much already would leave me sitting there holding on to AA (which we keep telling the Feds is such a joke) when a trade could be made for TDF.
But I can definitely see the issue that might arise from giving it to the Feds with the RvB queues - the same folks that the KDF might have been trolling all this time, might end up on their team being trolled by the other team...lol. Yes, damn it - it would still be funny...lol...meh.
Ever since they stealth fixed the arc jumping thing though, you can end up firing less than a full spread if you turn too quick...
Why would you tell me something the majority of people already know? The point is that AA's act as area denial, and realistically Klinks can just wait till someone flies into their net of AA's. Or drop a screen around themselves to wall out attackers, and no single person is going to take out 3+ AA's on the field that are staggered & clustered, the moment they target gets in range to shoot its already too late, as all of the rest are draining in omnidirections, and the Klingons are waiting on the other side for you to be on alpha recharge, and staring right at your tail pipe ready to ambush you.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. :rolleyes:
But if you wan't me to break it down for you.
- Being primarily specced for torpedoes required: False
- Torpedo boat required: False
- Required to move quickly after deliving salvo's or die a horrible death: False
- Ok for small ships, not ok for large ships: False
More complete and utter nonsense.
1.) Only an unobservant fool is going to fly straight into a "net" of them... they aren't cloaked or stealthed.
2.) Assuming they are already deployed pre-emptively they really aren't going to deny any area against any half competent well rounded team.
3.) Dropping a screen is nice idea in theory, but such coordination is only possible with a premade, and even then tractor beam repulsors, scramble sensors or antimatter spread will easily neutralize it.
Or god forbid if you should fly an Akira and have access to the torpedo point defense console. :P
Not to mention that pretty much everyone who is half decent at PvP is packing EptE and can quickly withdraw to a safe distance.
Are you even interested in saying something of quality? or do you just respond to me and everyone you disagree with professing how perfect your battle tactics are and expecting people to take your bloviation at face value? I'm sure you think you are some kind of gaming General Patton, all responses given, I don't put much stock in it, and its not about flying into a net, it is about a net dropped around, and through , and your opinions on abilities to use have long recharge times and half of them are useless in pvp. They are one off tactics that you are trying to rationalize as a challenge to your boon.
R.I.P
the point isn't when one or two are used in an area, its when 3+ are used, you cannot kill them fast enough to prevent them from becoming a problem when a team starts saturating where multiple people are fighting it becomes impossible to bring the battle to any logical conclusion other then A) Dying as a whole group. or
I use cannons, and not beams, except for KCB / APB, even then I run BO not faw. I am anti multiple target as regarding to skill as I believe having to actually point at the target are the way to become good at dog fighting, as opposed to something that fires in a full 41250 degrees (Spherical). Some people think I am head strong and should be rocking the cliche' 50k+ build faw, but I refuse, personally I think faw should be nerfed,or cannon abilities increased.
I feel your pain when ever I get hit by more than one energy weapon or torpedo or Gravity Well or Sub nuke or Tipler or TB spamming pets or Tetgas spamming pets or anything from fighting against more than one assailant in combat.
How dare these player use teams.
R.I.P
Fair point, but at least with most ideas there is a point to them. Some merit that says 'oh hey, this is a good idea' and worth considering. Stuff like this, honestly makes me wonder sometimes if it is borderline troll posts, designed with the intent of causing forum drama. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
Anyways...the most AAs one person can have out at once is 2. The most AAs that can affect any person is 2. So at best you will be affected by 2 AAs. Now the drain is variable depending on the person's spec, but the damage is minimal at best if they are not shot at by any form of energy weapon.
What is truly so hard about using a KCB though? It's seriously one of the most commonly used rep weapons I see. If not that, why no torpedoes, even a simple one? AAs do NOT move, so they have 0 defense (if that of course applies to them). KCBs aren't some super-rare, ultra-expensive item, anyone can somewhat easily afford them and equip it to any ship, even if it isn't built for damage. The Dyson torpedo can be brutal, and I see people using Proton Barrage often enough, so clearly they have the torpedo equipped then as well.
Originalspock, you are talking about a hypothetical situation of 'a whole net of AAs placed extremely well' basically. So that level of coordination with AAs is an extremely rarely seen thing. The only way you would ever see that kind of usage would be if you are fighting against a premade, and honestly, AAs would be the least of your worries at that point.
Actually this thread was started because a player was too daft to not get caught in accidental fire while watching a fight in cloak.
R.I.P
**wooosh**