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Faces in the Flames (The Chase, Season 2) Fanfic.

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Dunno who Vera Lynn is, I guess I'll have to google it, but Lisa's days as an action hero are done.

    she's just got to come to grips with that-which she IS having a hard time doing. I came really close to killing her at the club, and maybe not-doing-that was a mistake, but then the other Cardassian characters in the Andak setting wouldn't have been as easy to develop if I had.

    Vera Lynn was something of the Forces Sweetheart during WWII, and the amount of Moabite marines who wanted to contact Lisa, although amusing, and understandable in an enclosed community where everyone knows everyone else, also conveyed a kind of 'deification' (is that the righ word? :confused: ) which seemed a little excessive. I have to admit, I would've preferred her to have been killed, but it's your story, and if you think it has allowed for further development of other characters, then you made the right choice :cool:
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I have to admit, I am a bit of a fangirl for Jurram Kazel (whom we wouldn't have gotten as much development on)...now I wonder, does Jurram have an older brother who might be as cute and sweet as he is, that I can have? ;)

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    I have to admit, I am a bit of a fangirl for Jurram Kazel (whom we wouldn't have gotten as much development on)...now I wonder, does Jurram have an older brother who might be as cute and sweet as he is, that I can have? ;)

    You never know :cool:
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I do. Jurram's the oldest surviving brother. (he lost his older brother during the True Way raid on Andak Prep, along with his father, who was one of the responding Civil Guard officers killed on the scene-which is actually shown in the story!).

    which basically makes him the son of a cop-a job he's probably going to be going for, if he can keep his grades up.
    Cool :cool:
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I happened to get really lucky at my fleet starbase, and caught Alyosha in a pose last night that gives a great look at what he looks like in his human form, and the uniform he has chosen by this point in time. :)

    http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag85/NerysGhemor/screenshot_2014-04-14-20-52-11_zps5ead0f8a.jpg

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    I happened to get really lucky at my fleet starbase, and caught Alyosha in a pose last night that gives a great look at what he looks like in his human form, and the uniform he has chosen by this point in time. :)

    http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag85/NerysGhemor/screenshot_2014-04-14-20-52-11_zps5ead0f8a.jpg

    Much less severe-looking than on your banner :cool: Although that jacket barely qualifies as a Starfleet uniform, Marcus will be positively spinning in his grave :D
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    worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    I happened to get really lucky at my fleet starbase, and caught Alyosha in a pose last night that gives a great look at what he looks like in his human form, and the uniform he has chosen by this point in time. :)

    http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag85/NerysGhemor/screenshot_2014-04-14-20-52-11_zps5ead0f8a.jpg

    I like it. Really captures Alyosha's Russian background, his alien nature, and his epicness in one photo.

    He looks like Russian Picard there. I like.
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I wouldn't have compared him to Picard. Actually, I'm not sure Picard would like him very much. ;)

    But I'm glad to know you think he looks suitably Russian. Although he lacks the biology he has no hesitation about considering the nationality to be his. He created his appearance to reflect that. In fact, someone from Eastern Europe even ID'ed him as Russian, with what they perceived to be some Siberian ancestry.

    As far as that other pic...he was in a more pensive mood--and harsh lighting at ESD.

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Loved the multiple scenes, especially the Akula sequences :cool: Interesting to find out more about Uminoe as well :cool:
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    worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Battle scenes were great. Looking forward to more!
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    So...thoughts? There are some really cool character pieces here from several authors... :)

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    So...thoughts? There are some really cool character pieces here from several authors... :)
    Some really nice thought-provoking work :cool:
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This may be one of the best entries yet :cool:
    Empress Inaudible and Unpronounceable at the seat of the Pentaxian Dynasty, who confused law with the random outcomes of the little blinking dabo wheel in the inside of her head.

    Yup... when the wheel hits 'Dabo!' something -- usually bad -- happens :D
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm glad you liked it :-) I had been rereading some old sections and ran across the mention of Zadrin Sei's awful battlefield death. Even the nicked nerve bundle that Sei suffered should have been recoverable...but reading how Sei's memories had been triggered by going aboard the life pod where Kenny was dying made me remember that it was not just the injury that did Zadrin in, but infection. Which "doesn't happen to Feds" in the 24th century. That was actually one of the reasons Jiana Sei became a doctor: having had that experience. There was no way she would not be moved--no matter what the politics--by hearing that Pentaxians are dying that way.

    As for Alyosha...he is thinking that what the Empress has done means Devidians are going to be murdering children in their beds while no one is looking and the Empress doesn't care.

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    I'm glad you liked it :-) I had been rereading some old sections and ran across the mention of Zadrin Sei's awful battlefield death. Even the nicked nerve bundle that Sei suffered should have been recoverable...but reading how Sei's memories had been triggered by going aboard the life pod where Kenny was dying made me remember that it was not just the injury that did Zadrin in, but infection. Which "doesn't happen to Feds" in the 24th century. That was actually one of the reasons Jiana Sei became a doctor: having had that experience. There was no way she would not be moved--no matter what the politics--by hearing that Pentaxians are dying that way.

    As for Alyosha...he is thinking that what the Empress has done means Devidians are going to be murdering children in their beds while no one is looking and the Empress doesn't care.
    Very much so :cool: I'm sure the information will get passed to the right people ;) Equally, I'm sure that as baffling as I'sH'd and S'rR's would find Alyosha's prayers, they would certainly appreciate the sentiment behind them :cool:

    [Edit to add]
    Also, something to bear in mind, is that Pentaxian medicine does not cover such 'basic concepts', because for them, it has never in all their history been a possibility... Any ordinary injury on P'nj'n would not be causing these infections. They are only becoming infected, because the bluetips are neutralising the acidity of the flesh at the wound, allowing sepsis to take hold. While the bluetips are not a biological weapon, they might as well be, given the effect they have on the Pentaxian physiology. In a Human, it would be like dipping a cross-cut bullet in faeces and then shooting someone with it -- a guaranteed infection...
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Even then, I think that it wasn't a good presumption on their part that infection could NEVER happen. Even right here on little ol' Earth, we have some truly remarkable microbial life...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophiles
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidophile_(organisms)

    Which even includes the friendly (and some not so friendly) little critters that live in our digestive tracts. Not to be gross, but I would be willing to bet that Pentaxians also don't wash their hands, or at least, not with soap. Which provides some pretty worrisome cross-contamination routes should they touch a contaminated surface and then eat...

    So the bluetips certainly increased the likelihood--but saying never has this tendency to be a very bad idea.

    (BTW, not sure what you meant when you said, "Alyosha's prefers"?)

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    Even then, I think that it wasn't a good presumption on their part that infection could NEVER happen. Even right here on little ol' Earth, we have some truly remarkable microbial life...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophiles
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidophile_(organisms)

    Which even includes the friendly (and some not so friendly) little critters that live in our digestive tracts. Not to be gross, but I would be willing to bet that Pentaxians also don't wash their hands, or at least, not with soap. Which provides some pretty worrisome cross-contamination routes should they touch a contaminated surface and then eat...

    So the bluetips certainly increased the likelihood--but saying never has this tendency to be a very bad idea.

    (BTW, not sure what you meant when you said, "Alyosha's prefers"?)

    That should have read prayers... Will make the edit...

    With an acidic biology, anything which could cause an infection would almost certainly be neutralised before it could cause an infection. But as mentioned in the First Contact report, they bathe frequently throughout the day, to remove the oily insulating fluid that is secreted when cold...
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Washing for other purposes would certainly be very helpful, though not a guarantee if there is no concept of using it for sanitation and not just eliminating dirt/oil.

    I do agree that the acid biology would significantly reduce the amount of organisms able to survive in such an environment. My best guess, based on chemical properties of the most common acids including production mechanisms, is Hydrochloric acid at a higher concentration than found in the human stomach, though I would not rule out sulfuric acid. Since I have never heard of an exploding Pentaxian and "explodes on contact with organic material" is not a life-friendly property, I would say it is safe to say that HNO3 and HF are not the acid you're looking for. ;) (Google "nitric acid oopsie" for an unfortunate example).

    Anyway, HCl is nasty to things not specifically evolved to live in it. That said, extremophiles love stuff like that, so saying "never" to nature tends to be trouble. Personally, I am just surprised this didn't happen sooner. If Pentaxians ARE big into hand washing, that may be part of why it didn't...but yeah, life exists in surprising places under remarkably hostile conditions.

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    cptgold172cptgold172 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I have to say this was pretty good! This inspired me to make my own fanfic. Right now I'm working on the crew files for the USS Columbia's Gate.

    Vice Admiral James Throne
    USS Columbia's Gate NCC-91004-A
    2iC Task Force Whiskey 117
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Nice! Now do stay tuned...this isn't over yet. ;)

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    Washing for other purposes would certainly be very helpful, though not a guarantee if there is no concept of using it for sanitation and not just eliminating dirt/oil.
    Sanitation/sterilisation (in the context Humans understand it) is just not a concept which would occur, or be necessary for them, given their biology... That's not to say that they're a dirty people who live in filth, because with the frequent bathing etc, they are a scrupulously clean people. In Road to Ruin, H'mL'n left the bridge mid-shift to bathe... But, in their recorded history, these are the first Pentaxians EVER to develop infection from injuries. Under normal circumstances, even injuries sustained 'out in the wild', infection simply cannot happen to them.

    One couldn't complain about the caveman sitting in a dark room and telling him to turn the light on, when he has no concept of what artificial light is or how to turn it on... That's the kind of situation this is. Not negligence or incompetence, but an utter ignorance based on millennia of society without exposure to sepsis...
    gulberat wrote: »
    I do agree that the acid biology would significantly reduce the amount of organisms able to survive in such an environment. My best guess, based on chemical properties of the most common acids including production mechanisms, is Hydrochloric acid at a higher concentration than found in the human stomach, though I would not rule out sulfuric acid. Since I have never heard of an exploding Pentaxian and "explodes on contact with organic material" is not a life-friendly property, I would say it is safe to say that HNO3 and HF are not the acid you're looking for. ;) (Google "nitric acid oopsie" for an unfortunate example).
    Obviously there're a few alien compounds involved, but given it's ability to burn through metals and flesh, I'd say the closest analogue would be sulphuric acid...
    gulberat wrote: »
    Anyway, HCl is nasty to things not specifically evolved to live in it. That said, extremophiles love stuff like that, so saying "never" to nature tends to be trouble. Personally, I am just surprised this didn't happen sooner. If Pentaxians ARE big into hand washing, that may be part of why it didn't...but yeah, life exists in surprising places under remarkably hostile conditions.
    And also don't forget, the Pentaxians did not evolve, they were very intelligently designed as bio-weapons (Think of the 'work' of the Engineers in Alien/Promethueus) They work because the Masters wanted them to work, and made them work... Just like the Fek...

    The only reason it has happened in this instance, is because the internal reaction to the bluetips neutralised that acidic protection, which their medics did not realise or understand (as above with the caveman analogy). Had they been shot with regular or even du rounds, the local environment would not have had this effect on them. It is only because of the bluetips, that this has happened. While the Moabites may not have used a specifically created bio-weapon, they might as well have done, as they knew the bluetips would lead to infected injuries -- deliberate maiming...
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    cptgold172 wrote: »
    I have to say this was pretty good! This inspired me to make my own fanfic. Right now I'm working on the crew files for the USS Columbia's Gate.

    Vice Admiral James Throne
    USS Columbia's Gate NCC-91004-A
    2iC Task Force Whiskey 117
    Looking forward to it :cool:
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I tend not to believe in "never," only "highly improbable." ;)

    I figure whatever the Masters created has to be able to sustain itself long term in nature on the materials available, or else they would have died out once the Masters relinquished them. On that ground I would agree sulfuric acid is a very viable candidate. The elements are abundant in nature--though I do find myself suspecting that the smell of Pentaxian food could be enough to gag an elephant if they find themselves needing to ingest a ton of sulfur! (Though for fun, if you ever want to read something truly retch-inducing, there's a chemist's blog titled Things I Won't Work With, that describes what happens if you go one row down the Periodic Table...apparently the selenides take the stink to truly epic, building-clearing, village-evacuating levels.)

    If we're talking sulfuric acid, then interesting news: microbial life can live there. Some of the stuff around ocean floor vents is pretty astounding when you look at it, and a real testament to the hardiness of life, that what would kill us could sustain something else. :) So to get something to live in that, you're talking highly specialized life. If I were, for instance, a Pentaxian engaged in deep sea exploration around a volcanic vent or in certain other really extreme life-bearing environments, I would not be taking that lightly (whereas a human almost certainly doesn't have to worry about being attacked by such specialized microbes...well, unless it's more HCl that it's geared for, as we do offer that environment).

    So while I agree the bluetips greatly increased the possibility of infection by widening the range of organisms capable of entering at the new pH, and the Moabites had to know this, I do see from their view why a Moabite who knows his biochemistry might not expect them to have zero knowledge whatsoever of infectious disease. I think he could expect to catch them off guard, demoralizing them by doing the highly improbable, but the level of cluelessness and the full reach of the consequences is just not something I am totally sure they would expect.

    Now, to go a bit further into an argument I would personally have reservations about making in the case of the Pentaxians because that is a very, very borderline situation, here is what I suspect a Moabite would argue about the use of bluetips. They would state that the type of weapon it is acceptable to use scales in proportion to the nature and strength of the enemy. For example, using Black Omega rounds on the Borg and Undine is acceptable, without question, even though these would be WMD's on standard humanoids. For Fek, I think it's pretty certain Black Omega and Bluetips are acceptable there too.

    Where it gets dicier is when you step one level down from the baddest of the bads, the level inhabited by both the Pentaxians and arguably even the Devidians. But placing these species--deciding whether they should be classed the same as the "destroy by any and all means" species, gets tougher. It's probably easier with Devidians given that we have only one example of a civilized one...though that one example does make you have to pause and think, since a Borg in the Collective or Fek could never do what Alyosha does. With the Pentaxians the level of power is such that you could make the argument that most anything is acceptable--but the fact that they are so much more likely to make independent moral judgment makes it more questionable. Though on the other hand, could the weapon and technique be said to match the difficulty of taking them down, and the level of ferocity that they deal out on others? Tricky business, for sure.

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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    gulberat wrote: »
    I tend not to believe in "never," only "highly improbable." ;-)

    I figure whatever the Masters created has to be able to sustain itself long term in nature on the materials available, or else they would have died out once the Masters relinquished them. On that ground I would agree sulfuric acid is a very viable candidate. The elements are abundant in nature--though I do find myself suspecting that the smell of Pentaxian food could be enough to gag an elephant if they find themselves needing to ingest a ton of sulfur! (Though for fun, if you ever want to read something truly retch-inducing, there's a chemist's blog titled Things I Won't Work With, that describes what happens if you go one row down the Periodic Table...apparently the selenides take the stink to truly epic, building-clearing, village-evacuating levels.)
    Their food is fairly undigestible to some other species, certainly Humans... Klingons and Cardassians might be okay with it, and a Bolian would have no problems :cool:

    gulberat wrote: »
    If we're talking sulfuric acid, then interesting news: microbial life can live there. Some of the stuff around ocean floor vents is pretty astounding when you look at it, and a real testament to the hardiness of life, that what would kill us could sustain something else. :-) So to get something to live in that, you're talking highly specialized life. If I were, for instance, a Pentaxian engaged in deep sea exploration around a volcanic vent or in certain other really extreme life-bearing environments, I would not be taking that lightly (whereas a human almost certainly doesn't have to worry about being attacked by such specialized microbes...well, unless it's more HCl that it's geared for, as we do offer that environment).
    Sulfuric acid is the closest analogue, but if microbial life can survive in it, it won't be sulfuric acid ;)

    gulberat wrote: »
    Now, to go a bit further into an argument I would personally have reservations about making in the case of the Pentaxians because that is a very, very borderline situation, here is what I suspect a Moabite would argue about the use of bluetips. They would state that the type of weapon it is acceptable to use scales in proportion to the nature and strength of the enemy. For example, using Black Omega rounds on the Borg and Undine is acceptable, without question, even though these would be WMD's on standard humanoids. For Fek, I think it's pretty certain Black Omega and Bluetips are acceptable there too.

    Where it gets dicier is when you step one level down from the baddest of the bads, the level inhabited by both the Pentaxians and arguably even the Devidians. But placing these species--deciding whether they should be classed the same as the "destroy by any and all means" species, gets tougher. It's probably easier with Devidians given that we have only one example of a civilized one...though that one example does make you have to pause and think, since a Borg in the Collective or Fek could never do what Alyosha does. With the Pentaxians the level of power is such that you could make the argument that most anything is acceptable--but the fact that they are so much more likely to make independent moral judgment makes it more questionable. Though on the other hand, could the weapon and technique be said to match the difficulty of taking them down, and the level of ferocity that they deal out on others? Tricky business, for sure.
    I think the thing here, is that the Moabites used the bluetips knowing that they would be harmful to their targets, at rather, more harmful than an ordinary bullet would be, and an instance of biological incompatibility... That puts this in the grounds of intentional use of bio/chemical weapons... ;) As for the second point of that, the 'nature' of the targets... The Moabites don't know what the Pentaxians are, the Pentaxians don't really know what they are, they (the Moabites) just think they're against an alien army, which they know will hit them like a freight train and spare no prisoners (Much like how Moabites treat enemy PoW's really... ;) ) so while they know they have to use unconventional tactics, and exploit the Pentaxian's weaknesses, such as luring them under jungle canopy so they can't see, that does not give them the entitlement to fight dirty (at least not all the time they want to maintain alliances with respectable powers) by deliberately using biological weapons... The Moabites were informed they were on sovereign territory and asked to leave. They stayed. They were told the fleet was on the way, whereupon others might have thought it was time to go, but no, they stayed put in what they then definitely knew was someone else's territory... Had they left when they were first asked, they would not have been orbitally bombarded... Then in addition to the illegal occupation of the territory, they then use specific biological weapons against the forces sent to 'remove' them (from life) rather than getting into a standing/fair fight... As Korath said, the Klingons fought the Qul'Iw with honor, blades and courage... Pentaxians and Klingons may not get along, and have had a worse history that between the empire and the Federation, but there is still a degree of mutual (if grudging) respect on both sides...
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    gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm going to take the biochemistry part of this out of the forum, because I think you may be trying to defend a claim that is actually not necessary to the plot--I think the plot itself and the characterization are solid enough to function under both theories and I don't want it to appear that I am suggesting otherwise. :)

    Regarding the Moabite argument, I believe I did mention at the front of that one that I knew I was introducing logic with potential for a serious breakdown. ;)

    Before I get into that, though, I would say that two wrongs don't make a right, and that applies to both groups' behavior.

    The Moabites were wrong to encroach on Pentaxian territory. The Pentaxians were wrong to take such a nasty tone to an honest mistake. The Moabites were wrong to dig in once shown they were wrong (yes, even though the Pentaxians were total a-holes about it). The Pentaxians were wrong to engage in orbital bombardment.

    Not one of these acts can be justified by anything that preceded it, nor by anything that followed. So when you point out things the Moabites did that are wrong, I have absolutely no disagreement to give you. :) But maybe it's the "Cardassian" in me that will not let me point to bad behavior to justify other bad behavior.

    On the use of a "bioweapon," there are definitely two ways to argue on that one--one of which is admittedly a harder road to travel than the other.

    If Pentaxians are classified in the same category with other super-powered races that it is already accepted combat doctrine in-universe to used superpowered weaponry to take down, then the weapon is proportional to the threat as it is with the Fek even though problematic against "lesser threat" species. If they do fit this category then the Moabites get far more freedom in methods.

    But making that classification is not easy because there are two pieces of evidence that weaken that case: they do not have complete invulnerability to other methods, and demonstrate evidence of independent judgment. That's what makes it controversial.

    That said, the Pentaxians did not have to die if they had just looked up "infection" on Fedipedia and used basic, publicly available sanitary techniques that even pre-antibiotics (and maybe even new post-antibiotic tech, if as I suspect, antibiotic usage is severely curtailed in the future to prevent superbug development) made a significant difference in survival and recovery rates. Some of the necessities were probably already on the field (liquor, for one, carried by both troops) and ready to save lives. :-/ The threat level really should not have been on the bioweapon level if not for a basic information request not being made.

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