Regarding the Moabite argument, I believe I did mention at the front of that one that I knew I was introducing logic with potential for a serious breakdown. ;-)
Before I get into that, though, I would say that two wrongs don't make a right, and that applies to both groups' behavior.
The Moabites were wrong to encroach on Pentaxian territory. The Pentaxians were wrong to take such a nasty tone to an honest mistake. The Moabites were wrong to dig in once shown they were wrong (yes, even though the Pentaxians were total a-holes about it). The Pentaxians were wrong to engage in orbital bombardment.
Not one of these acts can be justified by anything that preceded it, nor by anything that followed. So when you point out things the Moabites did that are wrong, I have absolutely no disagreement to give you. But maybe it's the "Cardassian" in me that will not let me point to bad behavior to justify other bad behavior.
They sent their ambassador to the Moab embassy to discuss the situation reasonably, who was then condescended to, and subjected to an arrogant appeal to authority by Anh. The fact that the reference was listed on Pentaxian starcharts should have been enough to at the very least get her to say "Oh, okay, I'll look into this for you, something's clearly been missed..." But no, what Siri got was typical Moabite arrogance, entitlement and high-handedness... When Anh got the reply from the Romulans that the charts she had were wrong, she soon changed her tune, but the Moabite government, was still unwilling to simply pull out immediately. No, two wrongs don't make a right, but 'wrong' came from Moab first, and the Pentaxian response... well... note that it was the princess who gave the extermination order after giving the 'kick their asses and move them on' order infront of her mother And when it comes to her, her dabo wheel doesn't even light up properly
If Pentaxians are classified in the same category with other super-powered races that it is already accepted combat doctrine in-universe to used superpowered weaponry to take down, then the weapon is proportional to the threat as it is with the Fek even though problematic against "lesser threat" species. If they do fit this category then the Moabites get far more freedom in methods.
But making that classification is not easy because there are two pieces of evidence that weaken that case: they do not have complete invulnerability to other methods, and demonstrate evidence of independent judgment. That's what makes it controversial.
This is the issue... Fek, Undine, Borg, these are 'shoot on sight' enemies. With the Fek especially, they are un-negotiable monsters.
The Pentaxians are technically monsters too, but sapient enough to be considered as a legit species by others (and themselves) Yes, they're stronger and faster, but they are still people rather than just being creatures, thus the intentional use of weapons with the intent of biological aftereffects becomes a war-crime, rather than it being a case of 'required so necessary force' as they would be against the Fek.
That said, the Pentaxians did not have to die if they had just looked up "infection" on Fedipedia and used basic, publicly available sanitary techniques that even pre-antibiotics (and maybe even new post-antibiotic tech, if as I suspect, antibiotic usage is severely curtailed in the future to prevent superbug development) made a significant difference in survival and recovery rates. Some of the necessities were probably already on the field (liquor, for one, carried by both troops) and ready to save lives. :-/ The threat level really should not have been on the bioweapon level if not for a basic information request not being made.
But they don't even know what 'infection' is to look it up... All they knew, was that the wounds were 'going bad', but absolutely no idea as to why that was happening. To them, it was an utterly unknown occurrence and situation... But, it will all be worked out :cool:
They sent their ambassador to the Moab embassy to discuss the situation reasonably, who was then condescended to, and subjected to an arrogant appeal to authority by Anh. The fact that the reference was listed on Pentaxian starcharts should have been enough to at the very least get her to say "Oh, okay, I'll look into this for you, something's clearly been missed..." But no, what Siri got was typical Moabite arrogance, entitlement and high-handedness... When Anh got the reply from the Romulans that the charts she had were wrong, she soon changed her tune, but the Moabite government, was still unwilling to simply pull out immediately.
IMO had I been in Anh's position, while I might have behaved with more decorum, I would not take the Pentaxian territorial claim on face value either, if I had Federation starcharts that did not validate it. Biased parties can say whatever they want and it doesn't mean a thing. Third party confirmation means something. I would have told the Pentaxians that I required third-party verification before I told anyone to move anywhere.
Not pulling out once the Romulans confirmed the Pentaxian claim, however, was a huge mistake. That was never anything I was arguing.
No, two wrongs don't make a right, but 'wrong' came from Moab first, and the Pentaxian response... well... note that it was the princess who gave the extermination order after giving the 'kick their asses and move them on' order infront of her mother And when it comes to her, her dabo wheel doesn't even light up properly
"He started it" only goes so far, IMO. ;-) If I hit your car, "Gulberat started it" means I deserve a ticket and you deserve to collect on your insurance. "Gulberat started it" doesn't mean you get to blow up my house. ;-)
Here is the maturity level that is occurring here:
(Warning: do not watch this video while trying to eat or drink. You may shoot your drink out your nose!)
Each of those parties has a chance to stop it at any time, independent of the other's actions, and I don't care who uses what excuse.
This is the issue... Fek, Undine, Borg, these are 'shoot on sight' enemies. With the Fek especially, they are un-negotiable monsters.
The Pentaxians are technically monsters too, but sapient enough to be considered as a legit species by others (and themselves) Yes, they're stronger and faster, but they are still people rather than just being creatures, thus the intentional use of weapons with the intent of biological aftereffects becomes a war-crime, rather than it being a case of 'required so necessary force' as they would be against the Fek.
Let's muddy the waters a bit, just for fun... ;-)
In our shared universe--what about Devidians?
I would actually argue that you probably still can use such weapons on them legitimately, though it's not as clearcut a call as it is on the Fek, Undine, and Borg. It's not as clearcut because they are not AS powerful as the "Big Three," and we also have one known case of a Devidian exercising individual judgment. We also know that the Devidians consider themselves people.
But given the severity of the threat they pose, and the unreasonableness they demonstrated...what are we to say? Even us as the readers, who know about Alyosha?
The Pentaxian case is much more difficult...though I would say if the genetically-engineered troops were brought in it would get iffier on grounds that they don't have full free will.
What I am going to be interested to see is, how each party disciplines or doesn't discipline its own people for what happens. That is going to be very telling for each one...
But they don't even know what 'infection' is to look it up... All they knew, was that the wounds were 'going bad', but absolutely no idea as to why that was happening. To them, it was an utterly unknown occurrence and situation... But, it will all be worked out :cool:
Honest question here: do the Pentaxians have animals on Pentaxia?
Have they ever hunted or engaged in animal husbandry? Seen two animals fight each other, or an animal have an accident and get injured? If the answer is "yes" to any of the above, then I don't think "not even knowing what it looks like" makes sense other than their assumption of "we're superior so that can't happen to us."
Which would also be a valid explanation for their reaction, given that we humans are so good at ignoring data based on our own presuppositions. (See the Challenger and Columbia accidents for examples of ignoring warning signs.) We can't be the only beings in the galaxy that's happened to.
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IMO had I been in Anh's position, while I might have behaved with more decorum, I would not take the Pentaxian territorial claim on face value either, if I had Federation starcharts that did not validate it. Biased parties can say whatever they want and it doesn't mean a thing. Third party confirmation means something. I would have told the Pentaxians that I required third-party verification before I told anyone to move anywhere.
Not pulling out once the Romulans confirmed the Pentaxian claim, however, was a huge mistake. That was never anything I was arguing.
Ahh, but you did say that the Pentaxians took a nasty tone to an honest mistake...
They took a diplomatic tone to an honest mistake...
They were going to take 'a decisive action' against the colonists, until Little Miss Crazy decided she wanted them all wiped out without Mother's say so, that was when things got nasty, none of that was on Siri, she was behaving herself
I would actually argue that you probably still can use such weapons on them legitimately, though it's not as clearcut a call as it is on the Fek, Undine, and Borg. It's not as clearcut because they are not AS powerful as the "Big Three," and we also have one known case of a Devidian exercising individual judgment. We also know that the Devidians consider themselves people.
But given the severity of the threat they pose, and the unreasonableness they demonstrated...what are we to say? Even us as the readers, who know about Alyosha?
I would say yes, Devidians come under that 'shoot on sight' category. But, there's a difference between blasting them with something which would drive them back to their realm (or be instantly fatal) but something which would mess with their biology in some way, would not be kosher...
The Pentaxian case is much more difficult...though I would say if the genetically-engineered troops were brought in it would get iffier on grounds that they don't have full free will.
Actually, that would have worked out better for the Moabites, in so much as the genetically-engineered troops are incapable of firing on civilian targets due to subliminal conditioning... Ironically, the Federation does not allow them to be deployed off the homeworld due to their fascist anti-augment laws... Pity actually, as that would have saved quite a few lives on Penguin...
What I am going to be interested to see is, how each party disciplines or doesn't discipline its own people for what happens. That is going to be very telling for each one...
Absolutely, it's going tonbe a game changer for sure :cool:
Honest question here: do the Pentaxians have animals on Pentaxia?
Have they ever hunted or engaged in animal husbandry? Seen two animals fight each other, or an animal have an accident and get injured? If the answer is "yes" to any of the above, then I don't think "not even knowing what it looks like" makes sense other than their assumption of "we're superior so that can't happen to us."
Which would also be a valid explanation for their reaction, given that we humans are so good at ignoring data based on our own presuppositions. (See the Challenger and Columbia accidents for examples of ignoring warning signs.) We can't be the only beings in the galaxy that's happened to.
They eat meat, so yes, they have animals -- animals which share the same biochemical traits as they do One particular delicacy, is a meat stewed in its own blood... Feed that to a Human, and they'd suffer a very gruesome death :eek:
Ahh, but you did say that the Pentaxians took a nasty tone to an honest mistake...
They took a diplomatic tone to an honest mistake...
They were going to take 'a decisive action' against the colonists, until Little Miss Crazy decided she wanted them all wiped out without Mother's say so, that was when things got nasty, none of that was on Siri, she was behaving herself
I would excuse Siri personally for responsibility for the orbital bombardment, yeah.
Of course, if the Empress doesn't repudiate it, and hard--with action to back it up--she and the Empire through her, owns it as head of state, just as much as if she did order it herself.
To quote Worf in First Contact...
PREPARE FOR RAMMING SPEED!!!
Yeah, pretty much. :-D
I would say yes, Devidians come under that 'shoot on sight' category. But, there's a difference between blasting them with something which would drive them back to their realm (or be instantly fatal) but something which would mess with their biology in some way, would not be kosher...
I'm not so sure, given that no tactic seen thus far, from attempts at reasoning to just shooting them, has made the incursions stop. And I would say that if someone had no information about Alyosha and just went on the observed behavior, a decision to employ more extreme weapons would possibly be understandable since there would be nothing from their view to contradict the Devidians being in the same category with the Undine, Fek, and Borg.
WE in our particular shared universe would know there's something more there that makes it a potentially problematic action--but I don't think most anyone else would, and based on the available information, they might well conclude differently. :-/
Actually, that would have worked out better for the Moabites, in so much as the genetically-engineered troops are incapable of firing on civilian targets due to subliminal conditioning... Ironically, the Federation does not allow them to be deployed off the homeworld due to their fascist anti-augment laws... Pity actually, as that would have saved quite a few lives on Penguin...
The anti-Augment laws had too broad of a sweep in targeting Augments whose actions proved them to be good citizens instead of focusing the liability on their creators (and Augments who actually did something illegal). But allowing more to be created--to run the risks associated with that? Hell no. The elimination of the program should have been a condition of membership, even provisional. Let the existing ones pass on from old age when it's their time, and don't replace them, I would say.
Worse yet...even worse than setting out to create Uebermenschen, is the crime the Pentaxians committed against their own creations. Like the Vorta and Jem'Hadar they cannot and should not be punished for the crimes of their creators due to lack of full accountability--but to create beings without free will is a grave offense against the dignity of the soul...even worse of a crime than creating super-soldiers in the first place.
Oh, and all it would take to get them to kill "civilians" is to point out, "Hey, they're shooting at our troops--oh, and Moabite soldiers don't all wear uniforms, so if it shoots at you it's a soldier and it's a target." Because I'd bet the Moabites will just go plainclothes (or even down to their underwear--eep!!!) if ithey figure out absence of a uniform stops them from getting shot at.
(And let's not even contemplate the horror of Moabites running around the woods in their tightie whities. We don't want that. Ever. Shudder.)
They eat meat, so yes, they have animals -- animals which share the same biochemical traits as they do One particular delicacy, is a meat stewed in its own blood... Feed that to a Human, and they'd suffer a very gruesome death :eek:
I'd be very surprised to think they have neither imported animals for food nor as pets (I could see those of Vulcan's Forge having what it takes to survive, for example, since they are geared for extreme atmosphere, heat, and gravity survival), either on Pentaxia itself or its colony worlds.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I'd really hate to see a fine collaboration like this derailed and/or ended because two of the creators got their pet cultures tied in a knot and refused to back down (because that would make their creation look less invincibly badass).
I'd really hate to see a fine collaboration like this derailed and/or ended because two of the creators got their pet cultures tied in a knot and refused to back down (because that would make their creation look less invincibly badass).
Agreed. Like Jesu said, the Pentaxian situation is a distraction we can't afford.
Could we move this to PMs, guys, and keep the discussion relevant to THIS story?
(i.e. thoughts about what the Val'Gyr is finding in the rift?)
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
I'd really hate to see a fine collaboration like this derailed and/or ended because two of the creators got their pet cultures tied in a knot and refused to back down (because that would make their creation look less invincibly badass).
It's not a case of 'refusing to back down' at all, this is how gulberat and I converse... We argue, we debate, we challenge each other's concepts, but it is always done with respect, even if that does not come across to an outside observer...
But as Sander said, this can happily continue in PM... Apologies for the disturbance :cool:
Agreed that the two of have a lot of trust in matters of debate--truthfully, a level of trust that is not common at all and IMO a very special thing because of that. . I do have it going to PM now but on my end there are no hard feelings either.
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Wow...I had not seen the Elim Makbar scene--and dang...the gloves are off all right. For a Cardassian to do that sort of thing in a private vengeance (like Silaran Prin, though Makbar feels more remorse than Prin) is a sign of something severely wrong.
I think the Cardassians are probably angry that the Moabites continue to abuse their children. But this has to be kept quiet because if word gets out that Klingon-allied troops have set foot on Prime, it could get really ugly. I bet Sa'kat will be finding out...
Though I dare say that at least as angry as the Cardassians will be, their officials are not as prone to rash action as some...
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That's for sure. When I'm reading, if something's turning into a Charlie-Foxtrot, I will give that Charlie-Foxtrot a Letter Class, based on what I know of the details - the scale starts at E-Class for minor Snafus, then goes to D, C, B, A, then S-Class for major Charlie-Foxtrots. Of course, as it gets worse, it can easily go to Double-S, Triple-S, Quadruple-S, etc. And right now, I'd rate the Goralis situation as a Double-S-Class Charlie-Foxtrot, and Cardassia Prime has currently just crossed the border from A-Class into solid S-Class.
That's for sure. When I'm reading, if something's turning into a Charlie-Foxtrot, I will give that Charlie-Foxtrot a Letter Class, based on what I know of the details - the scale starts at E-Class for minor Snafus, then goes to D, C, B, A, then S-Class for major Charlie-Foxtrots. Of course, as it gets worse, it can easily go to Double-S, Triple-S, Quadruple-S, etc. And right now, I'd rate the Goralis situation as a Double-S-Class Charlie-Foxtrot, and Cardassia Prime has currently just crossed the border from A-Class into solid S-Class.
The Moab situation as a whole is definitely a SSSS-class.
I'd put the Ha'ni attack from "Invasion" at a SSSS as well, along with the Hegemony of Bresar incident and the attack on Andoria from "Heresy".
The incoming Iconian sh*t-storm is a SSSSS-class at LEAST.
Yup, this just hit SSSSS-class. Especially for the Yorktown.
Considering the stakes here, I think we've been looking at off-the-scale levels of CF potential for a while. And the Yorktown is a mighty tough boat with a damn good crew. She's got some fight in her still.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Well, they are engaging a Keter-level threat that's in process of attempting an XK-class End-of-World scenario on the galaxy at large, so it's hard to say that any force they bring to bear could possibly be considered "excessive"...
What did you guys think of this, besides those silly "ratings"? :-P
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What did you guys think of this, besides those silly "ratings"? :-P
It's a good story as usual, solidly written and well-paced. Can't wait to see what the "Masters" actually are (there have been hints that they're a pre-Iconian galactic overlord civilization, but not much else), and I'd love more detail on how Huntington and company got so evil, and of course seeing Quinndine get unmasked would be fun.
I'm excited for more. I'm also hoping that Quinn is still being kept alive somewhere.
(I'm also half-convinced that the Quinndine we run into in the latest Featured Episode is a nod to these stories.)
Oh, and as for my silly ratings - this is definitely at least a CK-class Restructuring Incident in progress, possibly an XK-class End-of-World Scenario, and Dr. Schroedinger is about to enact Thaumiel Protocols to contain it. (Dangerous, as the Keter-level item she's using is itself a CK-class waiting to happen, but the deployment method should confine its effects...)
Edit: How is it that I can spell "Schroedinger" without half-trying, but I can't seem to manage "World" without a typo?
I'm excited for more. I'm also hoping that Quinn is still being kept alive somewhere.
(I'm also half-convinced that the Quinndine we run into in the latest Featured Episode is a nod to these stories.)
Oh, and as for my silly ratings - this is definitely at least a CK-class Restructuring Incident in progress, possibly an XK-class End-of-Wolrd Scenario, and Dr. Schroedinger is about to enact Thaumiel Protocols to contain it. (Dangerous, as the Keter-level item she's using is itself a CK-class waiting to happen, but the deployment method should confine its effects...)
--Agreed.
--I wouldn't be surprised...should we ask the Devs?
--LOL, that item isn't just a CK-class, it's an XK-class at the MINIMUM.
What did you guys think of this, besides those silly "ratings"? :-P
I enjoyed it more than the previous entry, and felt it was tighter, more engaging... :cool: Equally, as bad as I feel for Nell, I actually didn't really care that Woody didn't make it, as he hadn't really registered enough to let me become invested in him, other than 'the guy who knocked up Nell' (which I have other issues with, but not worth discussing those, as what's happened has happened :cool: )
Funny...while neither of them were in the right for a one-night stand (especially without protection), I took away the exact opposite impression and preferred Woody. I was sad to see him go, as he is the one who has saved the life of their child, twice now. I think he would have been a good father.
Woody IS the guy who convinced Nell to give the baby a chance to live and was ready to resign from Starfleet to take responsibility as the father of his child--when, I should note, Nell was NOT willing to accept responsibility until much later--so that counts for something IMO. He was even ready to raise that kid with NO help in order for the child's life to be spared, if Nell was not willing to take responsibility. Nell seemed to be getting over that attitude, to her credit, but I will remember Woody positively for doing what we don't always see men portrayed as doing in the media, and making the decision to MAN UP.
Personally I liked Woody better because Nell's initial impression on me was of selfishness and irresponsibility compared to a more selfless attitude from Woody. At least Nell is growing and learning, and the kid does have a chance to live. I just hope Nell is ready for the responsibility of motherhood. Sometimes in the face of literally world-shattering events like this, people do tend to grow up and change, so I feel like if she survives this, there is cause to be hopeful.
Jonsills--I thought the SAME thing when I saw STO's Quinndine! O_o You have no idea how shocked and horrified I was to see that idea actually come to life! (But it was an awesome kind of horror, if that makes any sense.)
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It was really irresponsible to *ahem* do things like they did, and...
Look, it's a warship on a particularly dangerous front. That is NOT the environment to raise a kid.
Woody struck me as just...ridiculous. Nell is a relatively realistic woman, while Woody is like...
He's all about the embryo, while not caring about all the sh*t that Nell's going to go through as a result of this whole thing (from her career to the physical side-effects to the mental side-effects of having a fetus TRIBBLE up your biochemistry). It's a really annoying, typically male attitude towards things.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. Woody did do a good thing by offering to take all responsibility, but he still should've let Nell make the decisions.
Furthermore, fooling around with the risk of pregnancy, in an active war zone...just not bright.
In the story, and strictly *in the story,* Nell earlier on sounded like she was all, "Me, me, me, me." Part of that was indeed taking a risk in a war zone and then in essence getting called on it just as Woody did.
But I never had an impression Woody didn't care what Nell was going to go through. Personally, I had the feeling he was ready to be at her side through everything and help her and support her in every way he could. That's why I was sad to see him go, because that mindset showed he would have been great "Dad" material, too.
I'm pretty sure Starfleet accommodates mothers--and hopefully fathers too, since IMO guys deserve paternity leave. I saw that concept in a Diane Duane book and thought it was great. (In The Wounded Sky, Kirk makes a good-natured comment like, "Uh-oh, I hope I won't end up losing Scotty to paternity leave.") Something tells me that when there's a will, there's a way.
While there is more I could say outside the realm of the story and its characters, I am not going to go there out of respect for forum rules. Therefore that is my final word on the subject, as I have said all that needs to be said.
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Funny...while neither of them were in the right for a one-night stand (especially without protection), I took away the exact opposite impression and preferred Woody. I was sad to see him go, as he is the one who has saved the life of their child, twice now. I think he would have been a good father.
Woody IS the guy who convinced Nell to give the baby a chance to live and was ready to resign from Starfleet to take responsibility as the father of his child--when, I should note, Nell was NOT willing to accept responsibility until much later--so that counts for something IMO. He was even ready to raise that kid with NO help in order for the child's life to be spared, if Nell was not willing to take responsibility. Nell seemed to be getting over that attitude, to her credit, but I will remember Woody positively for doing what we don't always see men portrayed as doing in the media, and making the decision to MAN UP.
Personally I liked Woody better because Nell's initial impression on me was of selfishness and irresponsibility compared to a more selfless attitude from Woody. At least Nell is growing and learning, and the kid does have a chance to live. I just hope Nell is ready for the responsibility of motherhood. Sometimes in the face of literally world-shattering events like this, people do tend to grow up and change, so I feel like if she survives this, there is cause to be hopeful.
The protection issue was my biggest issue with it... When Sisko and Kassidy had a child, he said that he had forgotten to have his implant renewed, so the canon is that Starfleet officers are effectively 'chemically neutered' (which I have no issue accepting) so for two officers to make the same mistake at the same time, I found that a tad implausible given the canon. I wouldn't say I disliked Woody, and indeed, he did step up, I just didn't see enough of him (compared to the other characters) to really become connected to him enough to really care when he then didn't make it. On the flip side of that comment, I feel that Gul Veska has been woefully underused, and I found her to be an immediately captivating character... I can't even say that it is because I found her more 'relatable', as I have several friends who have been in both sets of circumstances, so it wasn't that I empathised with her more, I just didn't find Woody as engaging. Nell, on the other hand, yes, selfish and irresponsible, but, a Cardassian raised on Bajor and serving in Starfleet, she's a nicely complex character... :cool:
Comments
They sent their ambassador to the Moab embassy to discuss the situation reasonably, who was then condescended to, and subjected to an arrogant appeal to authority by Anh. The fact that the reference was listed on Pentaxian starcharts should have been enough to at the very least get her to say "Oh, okay, I'll look into this for you, something's clearly been missed..." But no, what Siri got was typical Moabite arrogance, entitlement and high-handedness... When Anh got the reply from the Romulans that the charts she had were wrong, she soon changed her tune, but the Moabite government, was still unwilling to simply pull out immediately. No, two wrongs don't make a right, but 'wrong' came from Moab first, and the Pentaxian response... well... note that it was the princess who gave the extermination order after giving the 'kick their asses and move them on' order infront of her mother
This is the issue... Fek, Undine, Borg, these are 'shoot on sight' enemies. With the Fek especially, they are un-negotiable monsters.
The Pentaxians are technically monsters too, but sapient enough to be considered as a legit species by others (and themselves) Yes, they're stronger and faster, but they are still people rather than just being creatures, thus the intentional use of weapons with the intent of biological aftereffects becomes a war-crime, rather than it being a case of 'required so necessary force' as they would be against the Fek.
But they don't even know what 'infection' is to look it up... All they knew, was that the wounds were 'going bad', but absolutely no idea as to why that was happening. To them, it was an utterly unknown occurrence and situation... But, it will all be worked out :cool:
IMO had I been in Anh's position, while I might have behaved with more decorum, I would not take the Pentaxian territorial claim on face value either, if I had Federation starcharts that did not validate it. Biased parties can say whatever they want and it doesn't mean a thing. Third party confirmation means something. I would have told the Pentaxians that I required third-party verification before I told anyone to move anywhere.
Not pulling out once the Romulans confirmed the Pentaxian claim, however, was a huge mistake. That was never anything I was arguing.
"He started it" only goes so far, IMO. ;-) If I hit your car, "Gulberat started it" means I deserve a ticket and you deserve to collect on your insurance. "Gulberat started it" doesn't mean you get to blow up my house. ;-)
Here is the maturity level that is occurring here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvysuewIOs
Merry Christmas.
(Warning: do not watch this video while trying to eat or drink. You may shoot your drink out your nose!)
Each of those parties has a chance to stop it at any time, independent of the other's actions, and I don't care who uses what excuse.
Let's muddy the waters a bit, just for fun... ;-)
In our shared universe--what about Devidians?
I would actually argue that you probably still can use such weapons on them legitimately, though it's not as clearcut a call as it is on the Fek, Undine, and Borg. It's not as clearcut because they are not AS powerful as the "Big Three," and we also have one known case of a Devidian exercising individual judgment. We also know that the Devidians consider themselves people.
But given the severity of the threat they pose, and the unreasonableness they demonstrated...what are we to say? Even us as the readers, who know about Alyosha?
The Pentaxian case is much more difficult...though I would say if the genetically-engineered troops were brought in it would get iffier on grounds that they don't have full free will.
What I am going to be interested to see is, how each party disciplines or doesn't discipline its own people for what happens. That is going to be very telling for each one...
Honest question here: do the Pentaxians have animals on Pentaxia?
Have they ever hunted or engaged in animal husbandry? Seen two animals fight each other, or an animal have an accident and get injured? If the answer is "yes" to any of the above, then I don't think "not even knowing what it looks like" makes sense other than their assumption of "we're superior so that can't happen to us."
Which would also be a valid explanation for their reaction, given that we humans are so good at ignoring data based on our own presuppositions. (See the Challenger and Columbia accidents for examples of ignoring warning signs.) We can't be the only beings in the galaxy that's happened to.
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They took a diplomatic tone to an honest mistake...
They were going to take 'a decisive action' against the colonists, until Little Miss Crazy decided she wanted them all wiped out without Mother's say so, that was when things got nasty, none of that was on Siri, she was behaving herself
To quote Worf in First Contact...
PREPARE FOR RAMMING SPEED!!!
I would say yes, Devidians come under that 'shoot on sight' category. But, there's a difference between blasting them with something which would drive them back to their realm (or be instantly fatal) but something which would mess with their biology in some way, would not be kosher...
Actually, that would have worked out better for the Moabites, in so much as the genetically-engineered troops are incapable of firing on civilian targets due to subliminal conditioning... Ironically, the Federation does not allow them to be deployed off the homeworld due to their fascist anti-augment laws... Pity actually, as that would have saved quite a few lives on Penguin...
Absolutely, it's going tonbe a game changer for sure :cool:
They eat meat, so yes, they have animals -- animals which share the same biochemical traits as they do
I would excuse Siri personally for responsibility for the orbital bombardment, yeah.
Of course, if the Empress doesn't repudiate it, and hard--with action to back it up--she and the Empire through her, owns it as head of state, just as much as if she did order it herself.
Yeah, pretty much. :-D
I'm not so sure, given that no tactic seen thus far, from attempts at reasoning to just shooting them, has made the incursions stop. And I would say that if someone had no information about Alyosha and just went on the observed behavior, a decision to employ more extreme weapons would possibly be understandable since there would be nothing from their view to contradict the Devidians being in the same category with the Undine, Fek, and Borg.
WE in our particular shared universe would know there's something more there that makes it a potentially problematic action--but I don't think most anyone else would, and based on the available information, they might well conclude differently. :-/
The anti-Augment laws had too broad of a sweep in targeting Augments whose actions proved them to be good citizens instead of focusing the liability on their creators (and Augments who actually did something illegal). But allowing more to be created--to run the risks associated with that? Hell no. The elimination of the program should have been a condition of membership, even provisional. Let the existing ones pass on from old age when it's their time, and don't replace them, I would say.
Worse yet...even worse than setting out to create Uebermenschen, is the crime the Pentaxians committed against their own creations. Like the Vorta and Jem'Hadar they cannot and should not be punished for the crimes of their creators due to lack of full accountability--but to create beings without free will is a grave offense against the dignity of the soul...even worse of a crime than creating super-soldiers in the first place.
Oh, and all it would take to get them to kill "civilians" is to point out, "Hey, they're shooting at our troops--oh, and Moabite soldiers don't all wear uniforms, so if it shoots at you it's a soldier and it's a target." Because I'd bet the Moabites will just go plainclothes (or even down to their underwear--eep!!!) if ithey figure out absence of a uniform stops them from getting shot at.
(And let's not even contemplate the horror of Moabites running around the woods in their tightie whities. We don't want that. Ever. Shudder.)
I'd be very surprised to think they have neither imported animals for food nor as pets (I could see those of Vulcan's Forge having what it takes to survive, for example, since they are geared for extreme atmosphere, heat, and gravity survival), either on Pentaxia itself or its colony worlds.
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Agreed. Like Jesu said, the Pentaxian situation is a distraction we can't afford.
Could we move this to PMs, guys, and keep the discussion relevant to THIS story?
(i.e. thoughts about what the Val'Gyr is finding in the rift?)
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
It's not a case of 'refusing to back down' at all, this is how gulberat and I converse...
But as Sander said, this can happily continue in PM... Apologies for the disturbance
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This probably. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxScTbIUvoA
"he's as dangerous as a ferret with a chainsaw."
This is a sticky mess.
Do continue! :cool:
I think the Cardassians are probably angry that the Moabites continue to abuse their children. But this has to be kept quiet because if word gets out that Klingon-allied troops have set foot on Prime, it could get really ugly. I bet Sa'kat will be finding out...
Though I dare say that at least as angry as the Cardassians will be, their officials are not as prone to rash action as some...
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That's for sure. When I'm reading, if something's turning into a Charlie-Foxtrot, I will give that Charlie-Foxtrot a Letter Class, based on what I know of the details - the scale starts at E-Class for minor Snafus, then goes to D, C, B, A, then S-Class for major Charlie-Foxtrots. Of course, as it gets worse, it can easily go to Double-S, Triple-S, Quadruple-S, etc. And right now, I'd rate the Goralis situation as a Double-S-Class Charlie-Foxtrot, and Cardassia Prime has currently just crossed the border from A-Class into solid S-Class.
The Moab situation as a whole is definitely a SSSS-class.
I'd put the Ha'ni attack from "Invasion" at a SSSS as well, along with the Hegemony of Bresar incident and the attack on Andoria from "Heresy".
The incoming Iconian sh*t-storm is a SSSSS-class at LEAST.
Also, fullerened antimatter? Looks like I'm not the only one who reads Schlock Mercenary!
Maxim 37: There is no 'Overkill' - there is only 'Open Fire', and 'I need to reload'.
Maxim 2 - A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what's going on.
Maxim 3 - An ordinance technician at a dead run outranks everybody.
Maxim 1 - Pillage, THEN Burn.
Maxim 27 - Never be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
Maxim 10 - Sometimes the only way out is through... through the hull.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
SSSSS-class Charlie Foxtrot, rapidly approaching OMFGHSWAGTD-class.
Death toll is already approaching the tens of thousands, alert all hands that we have a Charlie Foxtrot in progress...
Yeah. This really can't end well.
Do continue!
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It's a good story as usual, solidly written and well-paced. Can't wait to see what the "Masters" actually are (there have been hints that they're a pre-Iconian galactic overlord civilization, but not much else), and I'd love more detail on how Huntington and company got so evil, and of course seeing Quinndine get unmasked would be fun.
Please write more!
(I'm also half-convinced that the Quinndine we run into in the latest Featured Episode is a nod to these stories.)
Oh, and as for my silly ratings - this is definitely at least a CK-class Restructuring Incident in progress, possibly an XK-class End-of-World Scenario, and Dr. Schroedinger is about to enact Thaumiel Protocols to contain it. (Dangerous, as the Keter-level item she's using is itself a CK-class waiting to happen, but the deployment method should confine its effects...)
Edit: How is it that I can spell "Schroedinger" without half-trying, but I can't seem to manage "World" without a typo?
--Agreed.
--I wouldn't be surprised...should we ask the Devs?
--LOL, that item isn't just a CK-class, it's an XK-class at the MINIMUM.
Makes ol' 682 look like a playground bully...
I enjoyed it more than the previous entry, and felt it was tighter, more engaging... :cool: Equally, as bad as I feel for Nell, I actually didn't really care that Woody didn't make it, as he hadn't really registered enough to let me become invested in him, other than 'the guy who knocked up Nell' (which I have other issues with, but not worth discussing those, as what's happened has happened :cool: )
Woody IS the guy who convinced Nell to give the baby a chance to live and was ready to resign from Starfleet to take responsibility as the father of his child--when, I should note, Nell was NOT willing to accept responsibility until much later--so that counts for something IMO. He was even ready to raise that kid with NO help in order for the child's life to be spared, if Nell was not willing to take responsibility. Nell seemed to be getting over that attitude, to her credit, but I will remember Woody positively for doing what we don't always see men portrayed as doing in the media, and making the decision to MAN UP.
Personally I liked Woody better because Nell's initial impression on me was of selfishness and irresponsibility compared to a more selfless attitude from Woody. At least Nell is growing and learning, and the kid does have a chance to live. I just hope Nell is ready for the responsibility of motherhood. Sometimes in the face of literally world-shattering events like this, people do tend to grow up and change, so I feel like if she survives this, there is cause to be hopeful.
Jonsills--I thought the SAME thing when I saw STO's Quinndine! O_o You have no idea how shocked and horrified I was to see that idea actually come to life! (But it was an awesome kind of horror, if that makes any sense.)
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It was really irresponsible to *ahem* do things like they did, and...
Look, it's a warship on a particularly dangerous front. That is NOT the environment to raise a kid.
Woody struck me as just...ridiculous. Nell is a relatively realistic woman, while Woody is like...
He's all about the embryo, while not caring about all the sh*t that Nell's going to go through as a result of this whole thing (from her career to the physical side-effects to the mental side-effects of having a fetus TRIBBLE up your biochemistry). It's a really annoying, typically male attitude towards things.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. Woody did do a good thing by offering to take all responsibility, but he still should've let Nell make the decisions.
Furthermore, fooling around with the risk of pregnancy, in an active war zone...just not bright.
But I never had an impression Woody didn't care what Nell was going to go through. Personally, I had the feeling he was ready to be at her side through everything and help her and support her in every way he could. That's why I was sad to see him go, because that mindset showed he would have been great "Dad" material, too.
I'm pretty sure Starfleet accommodates mothers--and hopefully fathers too, since IMO guys deserve paternity leave. I saw that concept in a Diane Duane book and thought it was great.
While there is more I could say outside the realm of the story and its characters, I am not going to go there out of respect for forum rules. Therefore that is my final word on the subject, as I have said all that needs to be said.
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