The time and resources it would take to retrofit a Miranda or Centaur starfleet could more cheaply build a brand new Saber starship that comes with the latest technologies. Doesn't mean that you throw away the old starships that are still serviceable but as their numbers diminish they are replaced. Could it be done yea but why would you?
My thoughts exactly. The point of my post was that a Tier 5 Miranda would effectively be a Defiant with the look of a Miranda. Easier to just build a new Defiant than strip out most of the Miranda's systems and add more combat systems in.
terrible idea.
completly worthless ingame since combat is all that matters to this game.
And this is the major problem with the game. That everything is about combat. Most problems in the Star Trek series were not solved by killing everything in the immediate vicinity. If such an idea was implemented, then there would be more non-combat content and it would require a major change to the game itself.
there are two ways this content could be added.
1)- through tomb raider esq adventures into strange alien structures to solve puzzles.
2)- LA noir style detective stories where the player is enguaged with the narritive and is supported by scripted motion sequences etc
both of these require the entire ground game mechanic, those sloppy clip-art animations, and the gods damned 90s era beta grade interface be ripped out and binned.
the combat is the easiest thing to get right since it doesnt require the devs to create extensive plot, narrative & scripts to get people enguaged, and they cant even get the foundations of that right, let alone get it polished thanks to the misguided idea that the mmo trinity isnt totally obsolete.
and guess what, if they actually did get the game working properly mechanically, they could add naritive to that, rather than being stuck with a game thats dissatisfying to deal with thanks to the mechanics and interface.
why do you think peoplle are constantly shouting for new games worth of content rather than going back and replaying older episodes? because after the novelty of the 'new shiny thing' is gone, there is that damn rubbish clunk&spam interface and the stupid clunky mechanics.
But not all content is ground content. Say we are dealing with a rescue a civilization from the death of their world. There is nothing to shoot. There is nothing that can be done to save the planet without Q intervention. All that can be done is contact Starfleet and transport as many people as we can to safety. A Defiant simply wouldn't save any more than a few people in that scenario while a Carrier could save a ton of people due to its size. There is also scientific missions where a Science Vessel can obtain more data than a Defiant due to it having far better sensors. Therefore, space non-combat content should be about the type of ship being used rather than which one can do the most damage.
Adding Tier Categories to the game would make this game more interesting for those of us that don't like doing combat missions all the time and would like a more Star Trek game. After all showing up in a Defiant goes against "Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before." New life and new civilizations don't like dealing with a ship that has the main purpose of destruction. I just don't see how First Contact could go well if someone arrives in a Defiant.
man, you really need to get your facts straight. the link you postet didn't even mention any letter..."handwritten"...do you even know what the word means, it doesn't seem that way.
Yes.I do know what that word means and I did say that it was hand written by the Head Admin of STG to Mr Redtone him self.
your "headadmin" was refering to a statement made in 2005, nothing less and nothing more. It clearly says so in the text, which obviously you didn't even care to read before linking it.
My head Admin is referring to the reply he got back from Mr Redstone in a letter.
and that may be the most important part, the info is 8 YEARS OLD! It was already 5 years old when STO was released. Things change in nearly a decade.
It maybe 8 years old but it still purtains as the way things are today.
also, save your self a response, i couldn't care less about what you have to say or what your reasoning is, and so do most people on THIS forum, and presumably on your fabled ST gamers forum too.
a simple google research has already invalidated everything you said.
I don't have to prove anything and what is on my boards in 100% true.I will tell you this if nothing gets done with Trek gaming it will die.My board is fabled and why did you get invloved in this if you don't care.
This arguement about wanting a T5 Const. and Mranda will go on as there are more FirstGen. fans out there than there are NextGen.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
This arguement about wanting a T5 Const. and Mranda will go on as there are more FirstGen. fans out there than there are NextGen.
Not according to the poll on what players want to see more of that STO did recently. TOS was in dead last. Not first, second, third, or fourth. Last. It was even beat out by Enterprise, the series most people seem to hate for some reason.
only a total ****** would send a defenceless ship into a first contact mission with another race, all because 400 year old naval tradition about unarmed ships happened to exist at some point. something that people on this forum constantly fail to recognise.:rolleyes:
True a ship has to defend itself, but sending a warship on a First Contact mission defines what kind of relationship will exist between the two species. Klingons sending a warship on a First Contact mission is perfectly acceptable, but it would be a really stupid move on Starfleet's part to do it. It gives the message of "do what we say or we will destroy your civilization" not "let's work together for the greater good."
Not according to the poll on what players want to see more of that STO did recently. TOS was in dead last. Not first, second, third, or fourth. Last. It was even beat out by Enterprise, the series most people seem to hate for some reason.
That wasn't a poll about favorite series, it was a poll about which series needed more content in the game. You're willingly twisting the results to try and prove a point. Would you like me to bring up sales for the new trek movies? Or the recent Vegas trek poll that cited TWOK as the greatest Star Trek movie ever made?
I don't really see any result twisting there. Pro-T5 Connie and Miranda arguments would have been supported if the poll had registered TOS as first. the fact that Voyager won shows that there's less demand for TOS ships, and kinda takes the wind out of the sails of the Pro-T5 TOS ship people.
If anything, this means we're going to see EVEN LESS Fed ships out and about when the new content starts dropping. People will start driving Voth ships, or Khazon, or whatever comes out in the next few lockboxes.
Hell, we might even get a Voyager version of the Intrepid. T5 with some funky Delta Quadrant tech, maybe a sexy Liberated Borg Doff/Boff.
(God only knows what the Devs may deliver.)
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My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
I don't really see any result twisting there. Pro-T5 Connie and Miranda arguments would have been supported if the poll had registered TOS as first. the fact that Voyager won shows that there's less demand for TOS ships, and kinda takes the wind out of the sails of the Pro-T5 TOS ship people.
If anything, this means we're going to see EVEN LESS Fed ships out and about when the new content starts dropping. People will start driving Voth ships, or Khazon, or whatever comes out in the next few lockboxes.
Hell, we might even get a Voyager version of the Intrepid. T5 with some funky Delta Quadrant tech, maybe a sexy Liberated Borg Doff/Boff.
(God only knows what the Devs may deliver.)
It was a barely advertised poll about the direction of the game. Voyager has very little exposure in the story or gameplay so it's not surprising it won by a landslide. On a side note I'm not even sure why they had the poll because the article it was attached to confirmed a bunch of Voyager stuff was being worked on. Either way winning a movie popularity poll and having the rebooted TOS crew making Star Trek relevant again is proof we aren't a minority at the very least.
There aren't any Voyager Star Fleet ships unavailable at tier 5 so I doubt ship hopes had much to do with the decision. I do share your worries about all these alien ships in Star Fleet, if we didn't scare away all the new TOS posters in these threads there might be more traditionalists around to fight stuff like that.
Polls mean absolutely nothing. Revisiting various TOS episodes with a where are they now slant would be interesting. Just because someone thinks that TOS is the best Star Trek series ever, doesn't necessarily mean that they want to see 23rd Century ships in the 25th Century.
As far as there not being no Voyager Starfleet ships, there are only four Voyager Starfleet ships and 2 shuttles, Intrepid, Nova, Wells, Delta Flyer, and Dauntless. If the Galaxy-X and Wells are currently in the game, then the Dauntless has just as much right. So there is a Voyager Starfleet ship that is not available at Tier 5.
Polls mean absolutely nothing. Revisiting various TOS episodes with a where are they now slant would be interesting. Just because someone thinks that TOS is the best Star Trek series ever, doesn't necessarily mean that they want to see 23rd Century ships in the 25th Century.
Are you trying to defend the claim that the Voyager poll indicates a lack of desire in a tier 5 Connie with that statement. It would be silly if you were because you just dismissed the validity of unconnected issues in polls to support the very same thing.
As far as there not being no Voyager Starfleet ships, there are only four Voyager Starfleet ships and 2 shuttles, Intrepid, Nova, Wells, Delta Flyer, and Dauntless. If the Galaxy-X and Wells are currently in the game, then the Dauntless has just as much right. So there is a Voyager Starfleet ship that is not available at Tier 5.
All of those ships are at the end game of sto except the Dauntless. The Dauntless didn't become a Federation star ship until Enterprise though so my statement still stands. You forgot the Promethius class btw.
It was a barely advertised poll about the direction of the game. Voyager has very little exposure in the story or gameplay so it's not surprising it won by a landslide. On a side note I'm not even sure why they had the poll because the article it was attached to confirmed a bunch of Voyager stuff was being worked on. Either way winning a movie popularity poll and having the rebooted TOS crew making Star Trek relevant again is proof we aren't a minority at the very least.
There aren't any Voyager Star Fleet ships unavailable at tier 5 so I doubt ship hopes had much to do with the decision. I do share your worries about all these alien ships in Star Fleet, if we didn't scare away all the new TOS posters in these threads there might be more traditionalists around to fight stuff like that.
Firstly, you and I both know, that if you were truly honest with us and yourself...if TOS had won that poll you and the rest of the T5 crowd would be putting that forth as proof positive that it should happen. You know it. I know it. Won't believe you if you say otherwise.
Secondly, I don't really consider the rebooted Trek as having anything to do with TOS beyond name only. Sure the names are the same, but the tech is different, the 'story' (and I use the term story very loosely here) is different. Heck, personalities are wildly different. They took every aspect of the characters and exaggerated them to the point of being cartoon characters. But, that's a different argument.
Thirdly, the poll was attached to a state of the game, that was on the front page, on twitter, on facebook, and even linked to a few times in the various proTOS threads. By myself no less. Short of putting it in game with a blinking message that wouldn't go away until you read the SOTG, I'm not sure how much more you want.
Don't get me wrong, TOS is my favorite series. If this were a TOS game, I'd be excited. But its not. Its yet another in a long line of TNG+ era games.
If TOS itself (not the reboot), were as popular as you guys claim, I would expect it to at least not be in last place. Even below Enterprise of all things. Even TNG is below Ent for cryin out loud. It seems kids these days are more interested in explosions and shiny SFX over actual story telling.
Even TNG is below Ent for cryin out loud. It seems kids these days are more interested in explosions and shiny SFX over actual story telling.
Enterprise did have a rather snazzy theme. I respect TOS, but I wasn't real fond of that warbly 60's mess for an opener. :P
I digress.
Admittedly, I really, REALLY like the visuals of the reboot. I get a nice, fresh new feeling from it. Yes, there's lots of lens flare, and maybe it's cliche, but I liked it.
One thing, though, to me, personally, as an amateur science fiction writer, story matters to me. The storyline in STO is paper-thin, but there's just barely enough there to keep me intrigued. Will we ever see a resolution with the Undine? Will our Fed characters get to instigate it? When will the build-up of New Romulus show progress?
And this new chapter in the STO story has me wondering how much of the Delta Quadrant will be covered in some 9 missions.
The story in the reboot is a bit better, but compared to what was in TOS and the movies, I'm not sure how to balance that out, considering how lack of social progress jacked up Gene's original story framework. The female first officer got canned after the first episode, and having that cute black girl? And then SHE KISSED A WHITE MAN GASP!
Amazing that the show never got canned because of the risks Gene took with it, with what he was able to force through.
I honestly think some of the better storytelling took place in ST:TNG, and even then it had its limits.
The best storytelling of all perhaps was in the fanon novels that were published. One of my favorites was a 3-part series with Q telling Picard his life story to explain an eons old situation involving him and an alien species that I believe took the form of a sentient space cloud.
When it comes to storytelling, visual media, especially an MMO that the developers don't pay a lot of attention to outside of yearly new content to make the investors in CBS and the marketing division happy, will be limited. Books will always supersede movies, TV and games, simply because you can't make an 18 hour long movie about one plot line without it ending up boring.
(Lord of the rings? 3 movies about walking. Even the trees walked. Randall was right about that.)
Hell, it's nearly 5 in the morning and I need sleep. Apologies if I rambled. Umm, summary... summary...
Storytelling is going to be at it's best in novels, and well-written ones. No matter how much you want it, and want it to be good, you're never going to get something amazing out of this. Especially this game. Best when entered into with a grain of salt. If you did get your wish, and got to revisit some stories from TOS, you're going to end up dissappointed, and wondering why you wasted your life.
This is a new Q, kids. He ain't like the old Q, who would happily take on adventures leading to a mystery that forced us to expand our minds beyond the simple realm we understand into the metaphysical omnipresence.
This new Q? He'd just stick us somewhere, and our objective is to go punch those guys over there. Perhaps he's a reflection of the lowest common denominator of the mindless masses one has to gear these things toward, in order to succeed and turn a profit.
Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
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My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
There are those of us who like the classics and if there was another STO game that took place after ST6 UC.I would be playing that instead.
It's ok that people like the classics. I like them too. But they're just that, classics.
I wouldn't mind a 1000 Zen T4 version. But old is old. There should be limits and restrictions. Otherwise every system becomes a ridiculous mess of arbitrary decisions (and we're already halfway there). A constitution competing with a brand new Odyssey just feels wrong and would seem silly.
And of course you can always 'refit' a constitution or Miranda with Mk XII weapons and equipment.
Regarding the Klingon and Vulcan ships.. well I guess Cryptic was simply in need of designs and used what they could. Plausibility was not top priority.
I see the word "refit" bandied about in this thread...
Going by the lore, however, most/all ships aren't gutted/rebuilt (aka "truly refit") versions of older hulls, they're built at the "upgraded specs" right from the start.
Just as the NCC-1701-A is a "new build" Connie Refit instead of an old-build Connie gutted and rebuilt into a new ship.
And here's a rebuttal to an argument I now see more and more often yet haven't heard a response to:
Granted, Humanity has this "oddball" drive to redesign all new toys around all new tech. However, Humanity also has this oddball desire to be the "best" at everything, ever.
Therefore, presented with the D7, T'Varo, D'Kyr, Kumari, and possibly Atrox, the gauntlet has been thrown by all these races claiming "we can design our 22nd and 23rd century hulls to be effective in the early 25th century, what about you Humans?"
Are we going to blindly settle for "our early starship designs were clearly second best", or are we going to prove to the galaxy that our ships are adaptable enough to be 2409 worthy, even though they might not be doing their original role (Connie as Sci vs Cruiser)...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Firstly, you and I both know, that if you were truly honest with us and yourself...if TOS had won that poll you and the rest of the T5 crowd would be putting that forth as proof positive that it should happen. You know it. I know it. Won't believe you if you say otherwise.
Secondly, I don't really consider the rebooted Trek as having anything to do with TOS beyond name only. Sure the names are the same, but the tech is different, the 'story' (and I use the term story very loosely here) is different. Heck, personalities are wildly different. They took every aspect of the characters and exaggerated them to the point of being cartoon characters. But, that's a different argument.
Thirdly, the poll was attached to a state of the game, that was on the front page, on twitter, on facebook, and even linked to a few times in the various proTOS threads. By myself no less. Short of putting it in game with a blinking message that wouldn't go away until you read the SOTG, I'm not sure how much more you want.
Don't get me wrong, TOS is my favorite series. If this were a TOS game, I'd be excited. But its not. Its yet another in a long line of TNG+ era games.
If TOS itself (not the reboot), were as popular as you guys claim, I would expect it to at least not be in last place. Even below Enterprise of all things. Even TNG is below Ent for cryin out loud. It seems kids these days are more interested in explosions and shiny SFX over actual story telling.
That first part got a big laugh out of me. I totally would try to spin the poll into tier 5 Connie material. But in this circumstance I'm arguing against TOS fans being a minority and I think the movie poll is sufficient proof we aren't.
The relationship between JJ trek and TOS is a complicated one like you said but I think it still has relevance for one major reason. The game is legally prevented from having any serious amount of JJ content in it, but it will still attract JJ fans by nature of the name Star Trek. Like most of us they will try to emulate the positive experiences they had with their version of Star Trek. They can't have JJ ships so they will likely seek out similar aesthetics in the game, a tier 5 Connie would be the closest thing they could get, and the game would make more money. If you doubt the potential for this just check out the adapted Tal Shiar ships Cryptic released in lock boxes, they believed the money was there and they have a better grasp on the matter than we do. So yes I still believe JJ fans can factor into the desire and argument for a tier 5.
And as for the polls advertisement I guess you're right, I'm just butthurt it didn't get it's own post on the site.
Are you trying to defend the claim that the Voyager poll indicates a lack of desire in a tier 5 Connie with that statement. It would be silly if you were because you just dismissed the validity of unconnected issues in polls to support the very same thing.
I made no such claim. I just said that polls are meaningless. The rest of that paragraph is completely unrelated to that poll.
thats just pretentious.
its totally dependent on the sort of cat & mouse bitchy politics people are exposed to on earth these days.
any ship sent to operate on its own is going to be capable of functioning as a warship. you want simple proof this is true of the federation, ask yourself this.
"are the federations member worlds protectorate of the klingon empire?"
How is it pretentious? I could show up at your door with a bazooka with no intention to fire it. Just by carrying a bazooka, I am making an unfriendly statement. Showing up in a massive ship like a Borg Cube or a ship loaded with weapons and nothing else is making the same type of statement. A ship has to protect itself, but not to the point where it could destroy planets. First impressions mean everything in First Contact. If the Federation wants to have friendly relations with an alien race, then bringing something like the Galaxy is far more appropriate while the Defiant can send the wrong first impression. The Galaxy can protect itself, but combat is only a minor role so it gives a more appropriate first impression.
It's ok that people like the classics. I like them too. But they're just that, classics.
I wouldn't mind a 1000 Zen T4 version. But old is old. There should be limits and restrictions. Otherwise every system becomes a ridiculous mess of arbitrary decisions (and we're already halfway there). A constitution competing with a brand new Odyssey just feels wrong and would seem silly.
And of course you can always 'refit' a constitution or Miranda with Mk XII weapons and equipment.
Regarding the Klingon and Vulcan ships.. well I guess Cryptic was simply in need of designs and used what they could. Plausibility was not top priority.
The hit points should be increased though and both ogf them don't reflect to the tru models even used in other games eg StarFleet Command,Legacey and Brigge Commander mods.
I just like the taking a break from my escorts in a nice classic ship and give me emitter anyday over arrays.
Then limit the use of them say 1 weekend per month.
The Galaxy may have that much power but the Defaint can sure put it out as it doesn't have a lot of system to run.It doesn't need as much life support.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
The thing is Defiant is TOO powerful for her size, that's why she nearly killed herself in trials. Obrien and Sisko added armour and reduced her top warp speed to 8 to solve this. And Galaxy class is among the most powerful just not tacitically oriented.
Say you are a tier 5 player. You probably have higher level ships already and extra ship equipment earned from completing missions waiting to be used. So, raid your other ships and your personal stores for usable T4 and T5 equipment and install them on Old Connie. You are only limited by your hull strength and number of equipment slots, both of which need to be smaller because it's a much smaller vessel than a Sovereign or a Tier 5 Star Cruiser and an affordable ship for general missions.
What is stopping a player from just putting in a hit me with your best shot shield array, a ridiculous speed warp core and MK-bazillion phasers on an existing low-tier? I have no problem with upgrading old ships, but it should be a DIY project for the creative skipper.
You're idea about size fails on 2 counts.
A> T1 & T2 escorts (Fed), BoP's (KDF), and the T'liss & Dhelaun warbirds (Rihan), despite being tiny, ALL have T5/fleet variants, all with respectable (although in the BoP's case THAt one possibly needs a slight boost) hull points, and variations of 3/3-4/2 for sci-type, 4/3 for escorts, and 4/4 for "cruiser" types for weapon slots.
B>The T1 & T2 sci vessels as well, despite being smaller than the same tier cruisers (with the exception of the Miranda & sister classes), all have T5/fleet variants as well.
And that's not even getting into the "special" lockbox ships, a couple of which are fairly tiny, yet have ridiculous hull and weapon slots for their size, compared to ships larger than them.
I mean, by this argument, then an Excel should have around 7/7, a Oddy probably around 7/7 or 7/8, and a Sov easily 9/9. And let's not leave out the other giants, like a Vo'Quv/MU Vo'Quv, that thing should have 15/15-20/20, the other extra large KDF battle-cruisers & sci ships should be easily placing 10/10-14/14, the D'Deridex ( as much as I hate that thing), should be sporting at least 8/8 probably more like 10/10, and the Scimitars should be making around 25/25 for weapon slots.....all based on, you know, the all important identifier of "size" equating to functionality for "modern" ST combat.
Oh, and those larger ships should likely have 10x the hull they do, compared to what the tinier escorts get.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
could be done here easily.
tos & tmp era ships could be added at t5 but wit the gear mk level capped at mk 7 for example and given lower native stats, with era specific queues.
admitedly, that requires a healthy balanced game that doesnt have 10 minute queues for 5 man pve, let alone pvp, where the number of times i have seen people in eta edrani chat pleading for people to join pvp queues, doesnt exactly inspire.
In that case, the T3 stuff that got T5 variants should also be capped. Also, the OTHER T1 & T2 stuff that have T5 variants should be capped. So, no, TOS & TMP era style ships should NOT be capped, since there's already some of them in existence at those tiers, with no caps to the equipment they can accept.
As far as the T5 Constitution, the "CBS says no, is honestly the only argument so far that's valid. However, wih respect to the other ships requested, that argument isn't even there. So it basically comes down to , "Hey I can fly what I like (Gal/Sov/etc ect), but TRIBBLE those that like the TOS/TMP era, you're only option is the Excelsior!!!" And I've seen a few posts arguing that the Excel should never have been granted a T5/fleet variant.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
because I understand the era in which this game is being played. I went into STO not expecting a connie of any type. And again should anotehr MMO come out that is TMP I join if it was good. or heck make a server that is all TMP era with everything and i wouldn't mind.
By your reasoning, there should be NO Galaxy class ships either. Only a few were made, plenty of them got destroyed, and they're also getting quite old. Oh, and Constellation/Stargazer class ships, Defiants, etc ect are also aging as well. So gee, guess those ships should be stuck at those lower tiers, if even around at all, also. And that's only touching on the Fed ships, we haven't even argued about 150+ year old BoP's getting new life breathed into them as Fleet variants, old battlecruisers and warbirds having fleet variants, etc ect.
And honestly, there's something people that argue against the "older" ships forget. The fleet variants, mostly, are NOT an existing ship merely refitted with some shiny new equipment. Most are "from the keel-up" new builds, merely utilizing the existing shape of a particular class. That means they have a new hull, new pylons, new internal structure, etc etc. So that "it's old" argument doesn't stand up. I've also seen (at least twice now), someone trying to use this against as well, as in "Wright Bros plane made from new tech", again, apples to oranges. The basic shape of that plane only allows for so much upgrading. That limit doesn't apply to starships in TOS. Why? Because if it did, then tons of newer ships wouldn't work, because they have many of the same exact shapes incorporated into them. The saucer. The extended pylons. In the KDF case, the super long and thin necks to many of their ships. Warbirds with very thing wings. Second reason it doesn't apply, is ships incorporating SIF generators into the basic hull design. In combination with the previous point, that means, with few exceptions, that very few shapes are off limits, along with size, on determing what kind of punbishment a ship can take.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Which is why one might expect to see plenty of Constitutions, but on museum duty, or transport duty, or serving the merchant marine, or a planetary defense force, or in the hands of a wealthy collector/restorer, or a privateer (Did I say privateer? Sorry, I meant private contractor. My bad.), or environmental activists, or shipping relief supplies on behalf of planetary governments, or other federation agencies, or NGOs, but, no longer front line Starfleet duty unless the crew has a certain reputation and are willing to fix her up on their own time.
So the fact that your captain has multiple Starfleet ships that you OWN, doesn't strike you as yu're not really Starfleet? ANd btw, fleet ships are just that, private fleets, that are doing research in how to incorporate "modern" and new tech into existing ship DESIGNS, not necessarily the existing SHIPS, and then funding the building of those new hulls, for their members.
Edit:
This be a dead thread jim so its being closed. ~Askray
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Comments
My thoughts exactly. The point of my post was that a Tier 5 Miranda would effectively be a Defiant with the look of a Miranda. Easier to just build a new Defiant than strip out most of the Miranda's systems and add more combat systems in.
And this is the major problem with the game. That everything is about combat. Most problems in the Star Trek series were not solved by killing everything in the immediate vicinity. If such an idea was implemented, then there would be more non-combat content and it would require a major change to the game itself.
But not all content is ground content. Say we are dealing with a rescue a civilization from the death of their world. There is nothing to shoot. There is nothing that can be done to save the planet without Q intervention. All that can be done is contact Starfleet and transport as many people as we can to safety. A Defiant simply wouldn't save any more than a few people in that scenario while a Carrier could save a ton of people due to its size. There is also scientific missions where a Science Vessel can obtain more data than a Defiant due to it having far better sensors. Therefore, space non-combat content should be about the type of ship being used rather than which one can do the most damage.
Adding Tier Categories to the game would make this game more interesting for those of us that don't like doing combat missions all the time and would like a more Star Trek game. After all showing up in a Defiant goes against "Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before." New life and new civilizations don't like dealing with a ship that has the main purpose of destruction. I just don't see how First Contact could go well if someone arrives in a Defiant.
My head Admin is referring to the reply he got back from Mr Redstone in a letter.
It maybe 8 years old but it still purtains as the way things are today.
I don't have to prove anything and what is on my boards in 100% true.I will tell you this if nothing gets done with Trek gaming it will die.My board is fabled and why did you get invloved in this if you don't care.
This arguement about wanting a T5 Const. and Mranda will go on as there are more FirstGen. fans out there than there are NextGen.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Not according to the poll on what players want to see more of that STO did recently. TOS was in dead last. Not first, second, third, or fourth. Last. It was even beat out by Enterprise, the series most people seem to hate for some reason.
True a ship has to defend itself, but sending a warship on a First Contact mission defines what kind of relationship will exist between the two species. Klingons sending a warship on a First Contact mission is perfectly acceptable, but it would be a really stupid move on Starfleet's part to do it. It gives the message of "do what we say or we will destroy your civilization" not "let's work together for the greater good."
That wasn't a poll about favorite series, it was a poll about which series needed more content in the game. You're willingly twisting the results to try and prove a point. Would you like me to bring up sales for the new trek movies? Or the recent Vegas trek poll that cited TWOK as the greatest Star Trek movie ever made?
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If anything, this means we're going to see EVEN LESS Fed ships out and about when the new content starts dropping. People will start driving Voth ships, or Khazon, or whatever comes out in the next few lockboxes.
Hell, we might even get a Voyager version of the Intrepid. T5 with some funky Delta Quadrant tech, maybe a sexy Liberated Borg Doff/Boff.
(God only knows what the Devs may deliver.)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
It was a barely advertised poll about the direction of the game. Voyager has very little exposure in the story or gameplay so it's not surprising it won by a landslide. On a side note I'm not even sure why they had the poll because the article it was attached to confirmed a bunch of Voyager stuff was being worked on. Either way winning a movie popularity poll and having the rebooted TOS crew making Star Trek relevant again is proof we aren't a minority at the very least.
There aren't any Voyager Star Fleet ships unavailable at tier 5 so I doubt ship hopes had much to do with the decision. I do share your worries about all these alien ships in Star Fleet, if we didn't scare away all the new TOS posters in these threads there might be more traditionalists around to fight stuff like that.
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As far as there not being no Voyager Starfleet ships, there are only four Voyager Starfleet ships and 2 shuttles, Intrepid, Nova, Wells, Delta Flyer, and Dauntless. If the Galaxy-X and Wells are currently in the game, then the Dauntless has just as much right. So there is a Voyager Starfleet ship that is not available at Tier 5.
Are you trying to defend the claim that the Voyager poll indicates a lack of desire in a tier 5 Connie with that statement. It would be silly if you were because you just dismissed the validity of unconnected issues in polls to support the very same thing.
All of those ships are at the end game of sto except the Dauntless. The Dauntless didn't become a Federation star ship until Enterprise though so my statement still stands. You forgot the Promethius class btw.
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Firstly, you and I both know, that if you were truly honest with us and yourself...if TOS had won that poll you and the rest of the T5 crowd would be putting that forth as proof positive that it should happen. You know it. I know it. Won't believe you if you say otherwise.
Secondly, I don't really consider the rebooted Trek as having anything to do with TOS beyond name only. Sure the names are the same, but the tech is different, the 'story' (and I use the term story very loosely here) is different. Heck, personalities are wildly different. They took every aspect of the characters and exaggerated them to the point of being cartoon characters. But, that's a different argument.
Thirdly, the poll was attached to a state of the game, that was on the front page, on twitter, on facebook, and even linked to a few times in the various proTOS threads. By myself no less. Short of putting it in game with a blinking message that wouldn't go away until you read the SOTG, I'm not sure how much more you want.
Don't get me wrong, TOS is my favorite series. If this were a TOS game, I'd be excited. But its not. Its yet another in a long line of TNG+ era games.
If TOS itself (not the reboot), were as popular as you guys claim, I would expect it to at least not be in last place. Even below Enterprise of all things. Even TNG is below Ent for cryin out loud. It seems kids these days are more interested in explosions and shiny SFX over actual story telling.
Enterprise did have a rather snazzy theme. I respect TOS, but I wasn't real fond of that warbly 60's mess for an opener. :P
I digress.
Admittedly, I really, REALLY like the visuals of the reboot. I get a nice, fresh new feeling from it. Yes, there's lots of lens flare, and maybe it's cliche, but I liked it.
One thing, though, to me, personally, as an amateur science fiction writer, story matters to me. The storyline in STO is paper-thin, but there's just barely enough there to keep me intrigued. Will we ever see a resolution with the Undine? Will our Fed characters get to instigate it? When will the build-up of New Romulus show progress?
And this new chapter in the STO story has me wondering how much of the Delta Quadrant will be covered in some 9 missions.
The story in the reboot is a bit better, but compared to what was in TOS and the movies, I'm not sure how to balance that out, considering how lack of social progress jacked up Gene's original story framework. The female first officer got canned after the first episode, and having that cute black girl? And then SHE KISSED A WHITE MAN GASP!
Amazing that the show never got canned because of the risks Gene took with it, with what he was able to force through.
I honestly think some of the better storytelling took place in ST:TNG, and even then it had its limits.
The best storytelling of all perhaps was in the fanon novels that were published. One of my favorites was a 3-part series with Q telling Picard his life story to explain an eons old situation involving him and an alien species that I believe took the form of a sentient space cloud.
When it comes to storytelling, visual media, especially an MMO that the developers don't pay a lot of attention to outside of yearly new content to make the investors in CBS and the marketing division happy, will be limited. Books will always supersede movies, TV and games, simply because you can't make an 18 hour long movie about one plot line without it ending up boring.
(Lord of the rings? 3 movies about walking. Even the trees walked. Randall was right about that.)
Hell, it's nearly 5 in the morning and I need sleep. Apologies if I rambled. Umm, summary... summary...
Storytelling is going to be at it's best in novels, and well-written ones. No matter how much you want it, and want it to be good, you're never going to get something amazing out of this. Especially this game. Best when entered into with a grain of salt. If you did get your wish, and got to revisit some stories from TOS, you're going to end up dissappointed, and wondering why you wasted your life.
This is a new Q, kids. He ain't like the old Q, who would happily take on adventures leading to a mystery that forced us to expand our minds beyond the simple realm we understand into the metaphysical omnipresence.
This new Q? He'd just stick us somewhere, and our objective is to go punch those guys over there. Perhaps he's a reflection of the lowest common denominator of the mindless masses one has to gear these things toward, in order to succeed and turn a profit.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
It's ok that people like the classics. I like them too. But they're just that, classics.
I wouldn't mind a 1000 Zen T4 version. But old is old. There should be limits and restrictions. Otherwise every system becomes a ridiculous mess of arbitrary decisions (and we're already halfway there). A constitution competing with a brand new Odyssey just feels wrong and would seem silly.
And of course you can always 'refit' a constitution or Miranda with Mk XII weapons and equipment.
Regarding the Klingon and Vulcan ships.. well I guess Cryptic was simply in need of designs and used what they could. Plausibility was not top priority.
Going by the lore, however, most/all ships aren't gutted/rebuilt (aka "truly refit") versions of older hulls, they're built at the "upgraded specs" right from the start.
Just as the NCC-1701-A is a "new build" Connie Refit instead of an old-build Connie gutted and rebuilt into a new ship.
And here's a rebuttal to an argument I now see more and more often yet haven't heard a response to:
Granted, Humanity has this "oddball" drive to redesign all new toys around all new tech. However, Humanity also has this oddball desire to be the "best" at everything, ever.
Therefore, presented with the D7, T'Varo, D'Kyr, Kumari, and possibly Atrox, the gauntlet has been thrown by all these races claiming "we can design our 22nd and 23rd century hulls to be effective in the early 25th century, what about you Humans?"
Are we going to blindly settle for "our early starship designs were clearly second best", or are we going to prove to the galaxy that our ships are adaptable enough to be 2409 worthy, even though they might not be doing their original role (Connie as Sci vs Cruiser)...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
That first part got a big laugh out of me. I totally would try to spin the poll into tier 5 Connie material. But in this circumstance I'm arguing against TOS fans being a minority and I think the movie poll is sufficient proof we aren't.
The relationship between JJ trek and TOS is a complicated one like you said but I think it still has relevance for one major reason. The game is legally prevented from having any serious amount of JJ content in it, but it will still attract JJ fans by nature of the name Star Trek. Like most of us they will try to emulate the positive experiences they had with their version of Star Trek. They can't have JJ ships so they will likely seek out similar aesthetics in the game, a tier 5 Connie would be the closest thing they could get, and the game would make more money. If you doubt the potential for this just check out the adapted Tal Shiar ships Cryptic released in lock boxes, they believed the money was there and they have a better grasp on the matter than we do. So yes I still believe JJ fans can factor into the desire and argument for a tier 5.
And as for the polls advertisement I guess you're right, I'm just butthurt it didn't get it's own post on the site.
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I made no such claim. I just said that polls are meaningless. The rest of that paragraph is completely unrelated to that poll.
How is it pretentious? I could show up at your door with a bazooka with no intention to fire it. Just by carrying a bazooka, I am making an unfriendly statement. Showing up in a massive ship like a Borg Cube or a ship loaded with weapons and nothing else is making the same type of statement. A ship has to protect itself, but not to the point where it could destroy planets. First impressions mean everything in First Contact. If the Federation wants to have friendly relations with an alien race, then bringing something like the Galaxy is far more appropriate while the Defiant can send the wrong first impression. The Galaxy can protect itself, but combat is only a minor role so it gives a more appropriate first impression.
I just like the taking a break from my escorts in a nice classic ship and give me emitter anyday over arrays.
Then limit the use of them say 1 weekend per month.
The Galaxy may have that much power but the Defaint can sure put it out as it doesn't have a lot of system to run.It doesn't need as much life support.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
You're idea about size fails on 2 counts.
A> T1 & T2 escorts (Fed), BoP's (KDF), and the T'liss & Dhelaun warbirds (Rihan), despite being tiny, ALL have T5/fleet variants, all with respectable (although in the BoP's case THAt one possibly needs a slight boost) hull points, and variations of 3/3-4/2 for sci-type, 4/3 for escorts, and 4/4 for "cruiser" types for weapon slots.
B>The T1 & T2 sci vessels as well, despite being smaller than the same tier cruisers (with the exception of the Miranda & sister classes), all have T5/fleet variants as well.
And that's not even getting into the "special" lockbox ships, a couple of which are fairly tiny, yet have ridiculous hull and weapon slots for their size, compared to ships larger than them.
I mean, by this argument, then an Excel should have around 7/7, a Oddy probably around 7/7 or 7/8, and a Sov easily 9/9. And let's not leave out the other giants, like a Vo'Quv/MU Vo'Quv, that thing should have 15/15-20/20, the other extra large KDF battle-cruisers & sci ships should be easily placing 10/10-14/14, the D'Deridex ( as much as I hate that thing), should be sporting at least 8/8 probably more like 10/10, and the Scimitars should be making around 25/25 for weapon slots.....all based on, you know, the all important identifier of "size" equating to functionality for "modern" ST combat.
Oh, and those larger ships should likely have 10x the hull they do, compared to what the tinier escorts get.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
In that case, the T3 stuff that got T5 variants should also be capped. Also, the OTHER T1 & T2 stuff that have T5 variants should be capped. So, no, TOS & TMP era style ships should NOT be capped, since there's already some of them in existence at those tiers, with no caps to the equipment they can accept.
As far as the T5 Constitution, the "CBS says no, is honestly the only argument so far that's valid. However, wih respect to the other ships requested, that argument isn't even there. So it basically comes down to , "Hey I can fly what I like (Gal/Sov/etc ect), but TRIBBLE those that like the TOS/TMP era, you're only option is the Excelsior!!!" And I've seen a few posts arguing that the Excel should never have been granted a T5/fleet variant.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
By your reasoning, there should be NO Galaxy class ships either. Only a few were made, plenty of them got destroyed, and they're also getting quite old. Oh, and Constellation/Stargazer class ships, Defiants, etc ect are also aging as well. So gee, guess those ships should be stuck at those lower tiers, if even around at all, also. And that's only touching on the Fed ships, we haven't even argued about 150+ year old BoP's getting new life breathed into them as Fleet variants, old battlecruisers and warbirds having fleet variants, etc ect.
And honestly, there's something people that argue against the "older" ships forget. The fleet variants, mostly, are NOT an existing ship merely refitted with some shiny new equipment. Most are "from the keel-up" new builds, merely utilizing the existing shape of a particular class. That means they have a new hull, new pylons, new internal structure, etc etc. So that "it's old" argument doesn't stand up. I've also seen (at least twice now), someone trying to use this against as well, as in "Wright Bros plane made from new tech", again, apples to oranges. The basic shape of that plane only allows for so much upgrading. That limit doesn't apply to starships in TOS. Why? Because if it did, then tons of newer ships wouldn't work, because they have many of the same exact shapes incorporated into them. The saucer. The extended pylons. In the KDF case, the super long and thin necks to many of their ships. Warbirds with very thing wings. Second reason it doesn't apply, is ships incorporating SIF generators into the basic hull design. In combination with the previous point, that means, with few exceptions, that very few shapes are off limits, along with size, on determing what kind of punbishment a ship can take.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
So the fact that your captain has multiple Starfleet ships that you OWN, doesn't strike you as yu're not really Starfleet? ANd btw, fleet ships are just that, private fleets, that are doing research in how to incorporate "modern" and new tech into existing ship DESIGNS, not necessarily the existing SHIPS, and then funding the building of those new hulls, for their members.
Edit:
This be a dead thread jim so its being closed. ~Askray
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"