The reason I find this to be a possible good change is because with this change it means they will need to add some kind of real end game.
At the moment STO has pretty much very end game. The grind is the end game and it makes zero sense. In every other mmo, you grind and work reps to get to end game. In STO you do the end game content to fill reps for.....?
The reason power creep is a problem is because there's a lack of content. That's the real issue. There is no content that is being added to make use of the increased power of gear. Every mmo has people becoming more and more powerful, this is met with content that matches that. In STO you become more and more powerful to keep running the same content.
Look at this as a blessing as well for those that do not like grinds. Now you can pick your reps and work them and ignore the rest. The question I have about any new reps tho would be, how powerful are you going to need to make the passives to get people to want to do the rep? What's the plan if players reject a rep and choose not to do it? If the entire end game is based on rep grinds and rep grinds become looked at as pointless, that seems like it could end up being a major problem quickly.
Pvpers is a symptom, not the illness. Latter being Cryptic lazy.
I don't see lazy . Not right off the bat that is .
I see contempt (of players) .
And arrogance .
And no real forward planning or strategy or goals .
And ppl having jobs for which they are not qualified and for which they have not studied .
And "default" promotions .
And incompetence .
And greed .
And a lot of randomness and knee-jerk .
And a game who's Devs have turned a passion (for Trek and the Game) into just another a job that they go to .
And a whole pile of paper thin justifications for the whole of the above , which brings us to :
Also, something that you can not use but still have is taken away. Saying otherwise is just a straight faced lie.
For simplier, terms. I get what you are getting at but TRIBBLE that. I grinded and earned every darn reputation system passive. I want the ability to use them as they are now.
Who cares if a new player crys it's a power creep. They can earn the same reps like I earned mine.
It's total bull and I wish every player who can, says to Cryptic TRIBBLE you. Either complaining to the game support or blasting every social media the nonsense the Cryptic is doing.
Again you are not LOOSING anything. You still have all your reps unlocked if you unlcoked them... that is the way to think about it... They are now UNLOCKS. Which they should have always been.
Frankly suck it up... the change is EXACTLY how every other MMO ever made works. There is no game anywhere that allows you to earn passive bonuses to infinity.
They are about to make a similer change in Guild wars where all Major traits in that game for new players will be locked and to unlock them you will have to earn them in the game. Of course you can only select a finite amount of them.
LOTRO has always worked that way with Racial or virtue tratis what have you multiple in game tratis to earn but you can only slot X number of each type.
In games like TOR or WOW... they solved it SORT of by increasing level caps... and Cryptic has been trying hard to keep the game from being the typical +10 levels every 6 months and all of us having to buy new ships gear ect.
In order for them to continue to not go down the Level 60 and you all get to rebuy all your stuffs route they HAVE to find away to not turn the game into... level 50 players and level 50++ players as it is now... because making level 50 content at that point is next to impossible to tune. (This is why this has nothing at all to do with PvP) They can't put something out that is to easy for those of us with all our rep... and they also can't put something out that is really challenging for us because Fresh 50s won't even be able to earn there rep.
The only thing worth being annoyed about is that they didn't do this from day one with rep. Having said that I understand why it needs to happen... so having to pick and choose my active traits is fine by me... I have them all unlocked as well so I can tinker which is pretty darn fun.
Good intentions ending up in a bad idea. Once promoted as an alternative to continue to evolve the character after leveling to max tuning now to a waste of time.
So the span between a fresh 50 and a all rep full 50 grows? Yeah, thats good, not bad! Next comes the complaints that the span between a fresh 10 and a fresh 50 is to wide?
The result of that would just be loss in interest to grind reptrees.
Hawk did a good job yesterday of watching this thread and answering many questions. He also tried to explain why they where doing this.
Go find the dev tracker and go though his posts from yesterday.
This change is being made because power creep is an issue in the game RIGHT now... and they also want to add more Reputation system... which will only exacerbate the issue.
They have decided 4 is a good place... and they have buffed all the traits to make them a bit more attractive... and they have allowed us to repsec them for free.
Overall I am not sure they could have done this better in terms of the game.
The only things I think are worth arguing at this point ... is the following things;
Perhaps 6 slots instead of 4... I have a feeling they may have thrown 4 out knowing they where going to go to 6 just to test the reaction... I hope not though. 4 is right.
The other thing to discuss is what they are changing on the passive traits themselves. Some may need more buff some perhaps have been pushed to far... give some feedback there cause they are listening.
I understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. It is just this feels like we are going over old ground again and the furrow we are carving out here has almost overwhelmed me. I am at the point of giving up as talking to brick wall's get's real boring after a while.
Its ALWAYS a game of give em a little and take away a lot because we (the devs) made a mistake. A little fore planning would avoid lots of problems but the sound of the cash registers is far to compelling to ignore it seem's !
I don't see lazy . Not right off the bat that is .
I see contempt (of players) .
And arrogance .
And no real forward planning or strategy or goals .
And ppl having jobs for which they are not qualified and for which they have not studied .
And "default" promotions .
And incompetence .
And greed .
And a lot of randomness and knee-jerk .
And a whole pile of paper thin justifications for the whole of the above , which brings us to :
Which does not seem to be a problem either .
I'm a modder. I know exactly just how LITTLE work is needed to make a harder version of an existing event.
They could add "elite" and "Harder than elite" modes to EVERY PVE que they have with a week's work, if they got ONE coder and One team of test players (5 man) .
And most of that week would be testing just how harder the mobs should be.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Again you are not LOOSING anything. You still have all your reps unlocked if you unlcoked them... that is the way to think about it... They are now UNLOCKS. Which they should have always been.
Frankly suck it up... the change is EXACTLY how every other MMO ever made works. There is no game anywhere that allows you to earn passive bonuses to infinity.
They are about to make a similer change in Guild wars where all Major traits in that game for new players will be locked and to unlock them you will have to earn them in the game. Of course you can only select a finite amount of them.
LOTRO has always worked that way with Racial or virtue tratis what have you multiple in game tratis to earn but you can only slot X number of each type.
In games like TOR or WOW... they solved it SORT of by increasing level caps... and Cryptic has been trying hard to keep the game from being the typical +10 levels every 6 months and all of us having to buy new ships gear ect.
In order for them to continue to not go down the Level 60 and you all get to rebuy all your stuffs route they HAVE to find away to not turn the game into... level 50 players and level 50++ players as it is now... because making level 50 content at that point is next to impossible to tune. (This is why this has nothing at all to do with PvP) They can't put something out that is to easy for those of us with all our rep... and they also can't put something out that is really challenging for us because Fresh 50s won't even be able to earn there rep.
The only thing worth being annoyed about is that they didn't do this from day one with rep. Having said that I understand why it needs to happen... so having to pick and choose my active traits is fine by me... I have them all unlocked as well so I can tinker which is pretty darn fun.
This thinking is part of the problem. Content shouldn't be made with the idea that EVERYONE should be doing it. There needs to be a path of progression. There needs to be stepping stones into new content. This is where STO is failing and why it's end game is total none sense.
The end game in this game is broken. It makes zero sense. You do the rep to unlock newer and better things to do...? Nothing because there's nothing past that point. You have a system in place that offers zero challenge and is designed to allow EVERYONE to do the same content. No mmo works like that other then STO.
Perhaps comprehension wasn't your best topic at school.
They're not taking them away, just simply allowing you to only slot 4 at a time. You can switch which 4 at any time you're not in combat.
In fact you GAIN 16 skills that would otherwise be locked unless you repecced.
Power creep is an issue. This allows you to keep your unlocks (and access both from one tier of a rep simultaneously!) while keeping it fairer for non maxed toons.
Turn off your caps lock and return to your grinding
NO they are taking away 4 of my powers plain and simple and making me weaker. I have EARNED these powers and now they are taking half of them away. If they make it so I can do 8 ground and 8 space and not lose anything that would be fine, but they are taking HALF of my powers away.
Helping people is my passion in life. If I see someone without a smile I try to give them mine.
I understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. It is just this feels like we are going over old ground again and the furrow we are carving out here has almost overwhelmed me. I am at the point of giving up as talking to brick wall's get's real boring after a while.
Its ALWAYS a game of give em a little and take away a lot because we (the devs) made a mistake. A little fore planning would avoid lots of problems but the sound of the cash registers is far to compelling to ignore it seem's !
I agree completely. I really do wish they would think things through when they add new systems in STO.
Its not like some people didn't mention that THIS EXACT issue was going to pop up down the line... I will admit that since the rep system launched. I have stated multiple times on the forums that at some point this was going to lead to a Sever Power Creep issue... and a Sever issue with Multiple players that are all level 50 but not really end game toons... I warned it would kill the game if they didn't address it.
It shouldn't have taken them this long and 4 full rep system roll outs to realize they had to add a Slotting mehanic. I mean if ANY of them have ever played another MMO they should have noticed it was the one end of the system they hadn't included.
They do seem to do that with almost every new feature... quick and dirty. The only difference is they almost never in fact fix there mistakes... so I am a bit happy to see they ARE in fact fixing a major oversight.
I'm a modder. I know exactly just how LITTLE work is needed to make a harder version of an existing event.
They could add "elite" and "Harder than elite" modes to EVERY PVE que they have with a week's work, if they got ONE coder and One team of test players (5 man) .
And most of that week would be testing just how harder the mobs should be.
So are you going to restrict people with out rep from quing for those modes ?
It will be nothing different then E mode at some point. Perhaps that does fix the issue for now... with people complaining for awhile that noobs are quing for Nightmare mode when they should stick to E or normal. lol
However at some point say 2 reps from now.... That mode will also be to easy... and now you have to explain to a new Level 50... welcome to end game... now start at normal then go to E then go to Nightmare mode... and when that is to easy please que for Uber Nightmare 9000 mode.
What you are talking about i a band aid.
There are only 2 solutions I can think of.
1) Raise the level cap... and nullify everything you have purchased and earned gear wise.
or
2) Start dealing with the creep... part of which is this change.
I think everyone that is upset about this better prepare themselves as well... because this change ALONE doesn't get them to what they are claiming there goal is... so I would expect some more changes.
I agree completely. I really do wish they would think things through when they add new systems in STO.
Its not like some people didn't mention that THIS EXACT issue was going to pop up down the line... I will admit that since the rep system launched. I have stated multiple times on the forums that at some point this was going to lead to a Sever Power Creep issue... and a Sever issue with Multiple players that are all level 50 but not really end game toons... I warned it would kill the game if they didn't address it.
It shouldn't have taken them this long and 4 full rep system roll outs to realize they had to add a Slotting mehanic. I mean if ANY of them have ever played another MMO they should have noticed it was the one end of the system they hadn't included.
They do seem to do that with almost every new feature... quick and dirty. The only difference is they almost never in fact fix there mistakes... so I am a bit happy to see they ARE in fact fixing a major oversight.
How much are you getting for each of these posts? Do you require sleep or have a team?
These no it's not a nerf posts peppered through the full thread are more than a bit ridiculous. It may or may not only be a small nerf now but 4 reps from now it's a massive nerf. Which as I have been saying = no reason to play future reps - which is my main complaint. I like collecting reps and completing all chains etc. But there should be some reward for doing so.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
This thinking is part of the problem. Content shouldn't be made with the idea that EVERYONE should be doing it. There needs to be a path of progression. There needs to be stepping stones into new content. This is where STO is failing and why it's end game is total none sense.
The end game in this game is broken. It makes zero sense. You do the rep to unlock newer and better things to do...? Nothing because there's nothing past that point. You have a system in place that offers zero challenge and is designed to allow EVERYONE to do the same content. No mmo works like that other then STO.
So your saying you want some terrible PvE stat on gear... some form of a "radiance" stat. Oh man please don't even start down that road. lol
Unless you are suggesting they create SOME missions that unlock when you hit specific rep tiers... sure that could be possible as well... its still a major issue though when you have mulitple Rep tracks. So you hit Tier 4 omega and unlock the Hive mission... that could be cool... but you could still have toons with tier 5 in every other rep (and at some point we could really have 10+ rep tracks) playing that mission with people that only have omega. So you still have issues tuning the difficulty properly.
STO is casual game we all have to face that... they won't be doing Dungeon gear... and I don't think they are going to tie PvE mission options to gear/rep unlocks.
So we have to deal with what they have.... they have a TON of level 50 toons. Probalm is right now we really have 50... 50+ ... and 50++ ect.
Really though if you can think of a better way for them to put the game into a place where they can honestly tune PvE missions properly. ( am not even touching PvP but yes its part of this game as well)... speak up cause they could use the help if you know a better way.
I'm a modder. I know exactly just how LITTLE work is needed to make a harder version of an existing event.
From what little I know of Modders -- they do so out of passion and love and a need to make things better .
The only ppl who I think still have that in the STO team are the artists (and by that I mean environment and ship , not UI) .
The rest of that "gang" just comes in for a days job .
It feels like it .
It smells like it .
And with the lack of progression , it's ultimately undeniable .
And this is why a small part of me called out "I quit" (Rep's that is) .
I no longer feel rage .
And another part of me feels very saddened by this .
Why should I be angry when ppl like the OP present this as a "good thing" .
It's pathetic .
It's a pathetic continuation of a pathetic system which even has it's initial KDF rewards broken even today .
There are better ppl to be angry at .
How much are you getting for each of these posts? Do you require sleep or have a team?
These no it's not a nerf posts peppered through the full thread are more than a bit ridiculous. It may or may not only be a small nerf now but 4 reps from now it's a massive nerf. Which as I have been saying = no reason to play future reps - which is my main complaint. I like collecting reps and completing all chains etc. But there should be some reward for doing so.
Well perhaps you can suggest that....
Why not increase reward for EACH tier earned instead of tier 5.
I like the massive boost of Dilihtium and such from getting tier 5.
What if each tier unlock on each reward... had a bonus.
Perhaps not a massive dilihitum injection... but what about ONE free piece of gear... or Enough bonus marks to complete a project for one. OR crazy idea why not a nice bump of EC... or store points.
In LOTRO seeing as I have mentioned it when you earn a trait in game from doing what ever (killing 1000 of X or completing some exploration ect) you got a bonus amount of store points.
Perhaps
tier 1 unlocks... would reward 25 Cstore points + 1 million EC + 200 marks.
tier 2 unlocks... would reward 50 Cstore points + 2 million EC + 300 marks.
tier 3 unlocks... would reward 75 Cstore points + 4 million EC + 400 marks.
tier 4 unlocks... would reward 100 Cstore points + 10 million EC + 500 marks.
tier 5 unlocks... would reward Same as they do now.
Why not... it would solve the I didn't get nothing wine... and then the rep unlock would be just one more of the bonuses for unlocking the tier X part of the rep store.
As for not sleeping... I'm mixing a friends new disc for him today because I'm a super nice guy and I don't want to be working on it for weeks. lol I need the distraction... work argue work argue. Don't judge me.
So the span between a fresh 50 and a all rep full 50 grows? Yeah, thats good, not bad! Next comes the complaints that the span between a fresh 10 and a fresh 50 is to wide?
No, it's not. Either A: Content will become too easy to full-rep level 50s because of power creep, or B: Level 50 content will scale to the full-rep level 50s, resulting in new players and new characters being impossible to play at level 50. Not to mention that when reps keep getting added, new players have a hard time catching up to the full-rep characters. How is a new player gonna complete 5 reps that quickly? Let alone 15-20 reps in like 5 years.
I just thought I'd interrupt whatever's going on here because I just read the dev blog and have no interest in holding a debate over the topic at this juncture.
Since the thread is here for player input, I'll do just that, and then leave. No, I did not read any of the previous posts. No, I do not care if I am repeating what someone else has almost certainly said before.
I love the direction of this change to the rep passives. There are only two things I don't like about it. The first being I won't get a refund for the single respec token I once bought. But it was just one, so... oh well. Easy come, easy go.
The other thing I hate about it is... well I think six slots would be better than four. Four just seems a little too limiting, while eight might have the potential to be even more overpowered than the previous system, given that players can now mix and match "opposite" powers as they please. 6 seems like the sweet spot to me, like a 15% Zen bonus.
What I especially like about this overhaul, more than anything else, is that all the passives now have straightforward, easy to understand math in their description. If only we could get the devs to do this for captain skills as well. I know there are charts and guides out there that have figured out most of the math on their own, but it would be nice if I didn't have to alt tab and google how much 3 points of subspace decompiler affects the stun duration of... whatever.
A nice "this skill adds +X to your thingaburger per point" and "each point of this increases that doomaflatchy's effectiveness by +N%."
Wouldn't that be grand?
I'm agree with most..it's a nerf and a mistake. Lets take a look at this blasphemy:
"we’ve had to constrain our powers due to the fact that the most dedicated players would have all of them active at any given time. " -Yeah..that's a good thing, right? What's wrong with having eight active powers that you've earned working for you? Don't you want to keep "dedicated" players and not pander to the Silver leech? Yes..LEECH!!! The Dreaded "L" word.
"Ultimately, it’s been clear that the system as it exists on live is not infinitely scalable – if we had 200 Reputation powers, the difference between a fresh max-level character and one who’d spent hundreds of hours at endgame would just be too large for them to play together." - Wait what? We don't have 200 Rep powers first off which makes this an alarmist cowardly statement. It's meant to be different. A lvl 50 with 500 hours of game play should be more powerful then a fresh lvl 50 or else what's the point? Fresh 50, do your time and your grind like a man! Play together? This game is ENTIRELY soloable content to level 50! You never need the help of a single person to get 50 or rep marks!
"they’ve also forced players to make semi-permanent build decisions without regard for what type of ship they’re flying or what group role they’re trying to play. " -The ship we"re flying? Dude that means almost nothing since the skew isn't much. Engineer toons like mine can fly ANYTHING and still whomp TRIBBLE. Group role..lol..this ain't WoW. 5 Sci capts in any event is just fine for completing it respectfully. No idea what you're on about. Are you just making $#%t up?
"We want players to be able to use all of the powers they’ve earned, and we want to encourage experimentation and gaining a deeper understanding of how the game’s mechanics work. " - What? You plan on taking four actives away. Deeper understanding? You treat the mechanics math of this game like it's top secret material. There's no transparency.
"We recognize that this system revamp will cause some players to lose simultaneous access to powers they’ve earned" - Well, at least you're honest about the nerf.
"and not just a single “best spec” that people copy from a guide. " - What made you TRIBBLE this out? Do you really not know how MMORPs work? Classes have abilites and group roles. Said abilities of class have a optimization track in reference to the mechanics of the game and inclusive group position(IGP) <- I just made that up on the fly, funny I don't work for Cryptic?. Except for STO were IGP is non-existent. No group roles need ever be explained, required or filled to complete ANYTHING.
"What follows is a work-in-progress" -Yeah, tell me about it...
OK, time for "I'm rubber, you're glue" responses from the many sheep fanboys out there behind the keyboards.
Why not increase reward for EACH tier earned instead of tier 5.
I like the massive boost of Dilihtium and such from getting tier 5.
What if each tier unlock on each reward... had a bonus.
Perhaps not a massive dilihitum injection... but what about ONE free piece of gear... or Enough bonus marks to complete a project for one. OR crazy idea why not a nice bump of EC... or store points.
In LOTRO seeing as I have mentioned it when you earn a trait in game from doing what ever (killing 1000 of X or completing some exploration ect) you got a bonus amount of store points.
Perhaps
tier 1 unlocks... would reward 25 Cstore points + 1 million EC + 200 marks.
tier 2 unlocks... would reward 50 Cstore points + 2 million EC + 300 marks.
tier 3 unlocks... would reward 75 Cstore points + 4 million EC + 400 marks.
tier 4 unlocks... would reward 100 Cstore points + 10 million EC + 500 marks.
tier 5 unlocks... would reward Same as they do now.
Why not... it would solve the I didn't get nothing wine... and then the rep unlock would be just one more of the bonuses for unlocking the tier X part of the rep store.
As for not sleeping... I'm mixing a friends new disc for him today because I'm a super nice guy and I don't want to be working on it for weeks. lol I need the distraction... work argue work argue. Don't judge me.
I'm right there with you on the changes to passives being a pretty solid step in the right direction RE: Rep System, however, the above would pretty handily demolish STO's economy, and probably disrupt the Dilithium Exchange(a key difference between LOTRO and STO) so severely that the long term repercussions for the game could be... less than ok.
There's also the point to consider that much of LOTRO's general economy revolves around crafting, a thing (currently) all but non-existant in STO, and which even if it *did* exist, would not function in the same fashion on account of, by the Dev's own words, the best gear in the game being tied up in the rep and starbase systems.
Or, put another way, PWE giving away money? Did we wander into the Mirror Universe?
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
So are you going to restrict people with out rep from quing for those modes ?
It will be nothing different then E mode at some point. Perhaps that does fix the issue for now... with people complaining for awhile that noobs are quing for Nightmare mode when they should stick to E or normal. lol
However at some point say 2 reps from now.... That mode will also be to easy... and now you have to explain to a new Level 50... welcome to end game... now start at normal then go to E then go to Nightmare mode... and when that is to easy please que for Uber Nightmare 9000 mode.
What you are talking about i a band aid.
There are only 2 solutions I can think of.
1) Raise the level cap... and nullify everything you have purchased and earned gear wise.
or
2) Start dealing with the creep... part of which is this change.
I think everyone that is upset about this better prepare themselves as well... because this change ALONE doesn't get them to what they are claiming there goal is... so I would expect some more changes.
I think Cryptic is raising the level cap already. That will make all the gear obsolete. Eh, I dont really care anymore. Its a free game, dont look a gift horse in the mouth, even if its ugly as sin, its still free.
Though for the hard modes.....it could have a lockout requirement. Like it requiring mark XI purples or better, or a certain tier in reps....
Of course, a vote to kick function would solve that too.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I'm right there with you on the changes to passives being a pretty solid step in the right direction RE: Rep System, however, the above would pretty handily demolish STO's economy, and probably disrupt the Dilithium Exchange(a key difference between LOTRO and STO) so severely that the long term repercussions for the game could be... less than ok.
There's also the point to consider that much of LOTRO's general economy revolves around crafting, a thing (currently) all but non-existant in STO, and which even if it *did* exist, would not function in the same fashion on account of, by the Dev's own words, the best gear in the game being tied up in the rep and starbase systems.
Or, put another way, PWE giving away money? Did we wander into the Mirror Universe?
You might have a point... just one idea on reward... I don't think kicking people 30-50 mil EC after completing 5 reps would really hurt much economy wise though.
Still the point is they COULD add rewards to tier completion instead of just Tier 5.
Perhaps instead of Cpoints and EC... they just go with gear. They did that a bit with Dyson... and they will do something like that with Undine... so depending what gear the missions drop people will still do them even if they don't care about a silly passive.
Still nothing saying they can't sweeten this change for people by rewarding some form of Tier completion reward.... and make them retroactive.
So all these people wining that they have ground out 5 levels of 4 reps boo hoo hoo could be made somewhat happier perhaps.
It could be anything... it could even be "advertisement" style rewards... like what about some account bound lockbox keys. Chances are most people would open junk anyway... but sure perhaps the odd person pulls a lockbox ship with there free key and is super happy. lol
I think Cryptic is raising the level cap already. That will make all the gear obsolete. Eh, I dont really care anymore. Its a free game, dont look a gift horse in the mouth, even if its ugly as sin, its still free.
Though for the hard modes.....it could have a lockout requirement. Like it requiring mark XI purples or better, or a certain tier in reps....
Of course, a vote to kick function would solve that too.
Not sure a vote kick would solve that problem really... unless they are adding a flag over all our heads that says this is the level of rep I have and this is the gear I have loaded.
Last I heard was they didn't want to raise the cap... hey could be wrong though. Cryptic does some random things at times.
Not sure a vote kick would solve that problem really... unless they are adding a flag over all our heads that says this is the level of rep I have and this is the gear I have loaded.
Last I heard was they didn't want to raise the cap... hey could be wrong though. Cryptic does some random things at times.
Some people found voice lines recorded to Congratulate the Fleet admiral and the Dahar master, as well as mark XIV versions for rep gear, and Mark XIII version for rep dil store gear.
No doublt we'll see fleet Better advanced and better elite gear for 150k fleet credits and 50k dil....
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Some people found voice lines recorded to Congratulate the Fleet admiral and the Dahar master, as well as mark XIV versions for rep gear, and Mark XIII version for rep dil store gear.
No doublt we'll see fleet Better advanced and better elite gear for 150k fleet credits and 50k dil....
Well if that is true, that does sort of suck then.
All well at least I don't HAVE to grind all the new reps on my alts. haha
We'll see what they do on the level cap I guess.... I guess it is possible they don't touch the ships... we already have enough going not sure we need more console slots hull armor ect. Not like Cryptic to leave money on the table either though is it.
You might have a point... just one idea on reward... I don't think kicking people 30-50 mil EC after completing 5 reps would really hurt much economy wise though.
Still the point is they COULD add rewards to tier completion instead of just Tier 5.
Perhaps instead of Cpoints and EC... they just go with gear. They did that a bit with Dyson... and they will do something like that with Undine... so depending what gear the missions drop people will still do them even if they don't care about a silly passive.
Still nothing saying they can't sweeten this change for people by rewarding some form of Tier completion reward.... and make them retroactive.
So all these people wining that they have ground out 5 levels of 4 reps boo hoo hoo could be made somewhat happier perhaps.
It could be anything... it could even be "advertisement" style rewards... like what about some account bound lockbox keys. Chances are most people would open junk anyway... but sure perhaps the odd person pulls a lockbox ship with there free key and is super happy. lol
Universal Voucher for one Fleet Gear/BOff/Outfit/Whatever, would be sweet.
The 50 mil EC probably would be decent if the default assumption wasn't "limit everyone to 10, then make real cash off people selling Zen to people trading dilithium to buy cheap store unlocks like our EC cap removal."
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
I'm not opposed to change, but saying a 'fresh' lvl 50 should be the same as a veteran lvl 50 is crazy. There should be a difference and it should be earned and something to strive for. Rep is one of the things you can't buy your way through, it has to be earned.
It's just not infinitely scalable. As I pointed out in the blog, if we had 100 reps in the current live setup, the difference in performance between a fresh 50 and a "complete" 50 would be so immense they wouldn't fit in the same proverbial room.
Oh...I see... Typical gov't thinking... So it's not FAIR that new Vice Admirals don't have the same punch as Vice Admirals who have been grinding since Beta. So we punish everyone who has already been grinding under the current system by taking abilities away. Punish those who have worked hard to enjoy the game as they see fit to make it more FAIR...Great way to treat your long time loyal clients... What's next? A tax on energy credits or dilithium to give them to lower level players?...lol
Universal Voucher for one Fleet Gear/BOff/Outfit/Whatever, would be sweet.
The 50 mil EC probably would be decent if the default assumption wasn't "limit everyone to 10, then make real cash off people selling Zen to people trading dilithium to buy cheap store unlocks like our EC cap removal."
Ya thats true... I'm sure anything they did they would do with a eye on how people could exploit it.
A fleet gear token ya why not... hocks the 2 systems together only slightly. Encourages players doing one to contribute to the other.
Ya stuff like that the pushes there other systems on people I thnk would be doable.
They could even add a new "Reputation Gift" box. Perhaps every time you complete a Major project you could earn one. (the way Dyson gives you the gear box)... that Gift box could have anything in it from store gear... to lockbox keys... doff packs.... heck they could even make that part of a Weekend Bonus. Have "reputation weekend" where Rep marks are doubled. As well as Reputation reward boxes being gold all weekend... and having a higher drop rate of nice stuff... or even a chance to pull Lockbox ships or what ever. When completing a full tier it could reward Extra boxes.
So tier 1 completion could give 5 extra boxes... 2 could reward 10 ect.
Make that retroactive... and all the people that have full rep tiers now... could get a nice pile of boxes to open when things change.
Comments
At the moment STO has pretty much very end game. The grind is the end game and it makes zero sense. In every other mmo, you grind and work reps to get to end game. In STO you do the end game content to fill reps for.....?
The reason power creep is a problem is because there's a lack of content. That's the real issue. There is no content that is being added to make use of the increased power of gear. Every mmo has people becoming more and more powerful, this is met with content that matches that. In STO you become more and more powerful to keep running the same content.
Look at this as a blessing as well for those that do not like grinds. Now you can pick your reps and work them and ignore the rest. The question I have about any new reps tho would be, how powerful are you going to need to make the passives to get people to want to do the rep? What's the plan if players reject a rep and choose not to do it? If the entire end game is based on rep grinds and rep grinds become looked at as pointless, that seems like it could end up being a major problem quickly.
I don't see lazy . Not right off the bat that is .
I see contempt (of players) .
And arrogance .
And no real forward planning or strategy or goals .
And ppl having jobs for which they are not qualified and for which they have not studied .
And "default" promotions .
And incompetence .
And greed .
And a lot of randomness and knee-jerk .
And a game who's Devs have turned a passion (for Trek and the Game) into just another a job that they go to .
And a whole pile of paper thin justifications for the whole of the above , which brings us to :
Which does not seem to be a problem either .
Again you are not LOOSING anything. You still have all your reps unlocked if you unlcoked them... that is the way to think about it... They are now UNLOCKS. Which they should have always been.
Frankly suck it up... the change is EXACTLY how every other MMO ever made works. There is no game anywhere that allows you to earn passive bonuses to infinity.
They are about to make a similer change in Guild wars where all Major traits in that game for new players will be locked and to unlock them you will have to earn them in the game. Of course you can only select a finite amount of them.
LOTRO has always worked that way with Racial or virtue tratis what have you multiple in game tratis to earn but you can only slot X number of each type.
In games like TOR or WOW... they solved it SORT of by increasing level caps... and Cryptic has been trying hard to keep the game from being the typical +10 levels every 6 months and all of us having to buy new ships gear ect.
In order for them to continue to not go down the Level 60 and you all get to rebuy all your stuffs route they HAVE to find away to not turn the game into... level 50 players and level 50++ players as it is now... because making level 50 content at that point is next to impossible to tune. (This is why this has nothing at all to do with PvP) They can't put something out that is to easy for those of us with all our rep... and they also can't put something out that is really challenging for us because Fresh 50s won't even be able to earn there rep.
The only thing worth being annoyed about is that they didn't do this from day one with rep. Having said that I understand why it needs to happen... so having to pick and choose my active traits is fine by me... I have them all unlocked as well so I can tinker which is pretty darn fun.
So the span between a fresh 50 and a all rep full 50 grows? Yeah, thats good, not bad! Next comes the complaints that the span between a fresh 10 and a fresh 50 is to wide?
The result of that would just be loss in interest to grind reptrees.
I understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. It is just this feels like we are going over old ground again and the furrow we are carving out here has almost overwhelmed me. I am at the point of giving up as talking to brick wall's get's real boring after a while.
Its ALWAYS a game of give em a little and take away a lot because we (the devs) made a mistake. A little fore planning would avoid lots of problems but the sound of the cash registers is far to compelling to ignore it seem's !
I'm a modder. I know exactly just how LITTLE work is needed to make a harder version of an existing event.
They could add "elite" and "Harder than elite" modes to EVERY PVE que they have with a week's work, if they got ONE coder and One team of test players (5 man) .
And most of that week would be testing just how harder the mobs should be.
This thinking is part of the problem. Content shouldn't be made with the idea that EVERYONE should be doing it. There needs to be a path of progression. There needs to be stepping stones into new content. This is where STO is failing and why it's end game is total none sense.
The end game in this game is broken. It makes zero sense. You do the rep to unlock newer and better things to do...? Nothing because there's nothing past that point. You have a system in place that offers zero challenge and is designed to allow EVERYONE to do the same content. No mmo works like that other then STO.
NO they are taking away 4 of my powers plain and simple and making me weaker. I have EARNED these powers and now they are taking half of them away. If they make it so I can do 8 ground and 8 space and not lose anything that would be fine, but they are taking HALF of my powers away.
I agree completely. I really do wish they would think things through when they add new systems in STO.
Its not like some people didn't mention that THIS EXACT issue was going to pop up down the line... I will admit that since the rep system launched. I have stated multiple times on the forums that at some point this was going to lead to a Sever Power Creep issue... and a Sever issue with Multiple players that are all level 50 but not really end game toons... I warned it would kill the game if they didn't address it.
It shouldn't have taken them this long and 4 full rep system roll outs to realize they had to add a Slotting mehanic. I mean if ANY of them have ever played another MMO they should have noticed it was the one end of the system they hadn't included.
They do seem to do that with almost every new feature... quick and dirty. The only difference is they almost never in fact fix there mistakes... so I am a bit happy to see they ARE in fact fixing a major oversight.
So are you going to restrict people with out rep from quing for those modes ?
It will be nothing different then E mode at some point. Perhaps that does fix the issue for now... with people complaining for awhile that noobs are quing for Nightmare mode when they should stick to E or normal. lol
However at some point say 2 reps from now.... That mode will also be to easy... and now you have to explain to a new Level 50... welcome to end game... now start at normal then go to E then go to Nightmare mode... and when that is to easy please que for Uber Nightmare 9000 mode.
What you are talking about i a band aid.
There are only 2 solutions I can think of.
1) Raise the level cap... and nullify everything you have purchased and earned gear wise.
or
2) Start dealing with the creep... part of which is this change.
I think everyone that is upset about this better prepare themselves as well... because this change ALONE doesn't get them to what they are claiming there goal is... so I would expect some more changes.
How much are you getting for each of these posts? Do you require sleep or have a team?
These no it's not a nerf posts peppered through the full thread are more than a bit ridiculous. It may or may not only be a small nerf now but 4 reps from now it's a massive nerf. Which as I have been saying = no reason to play future reps - which is my main complaint. I like collecting reps and completing all chains etc. But there should be some reward for doing so.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
So your saying you want some terrible PvE stat on gear... some form of a "radiance" stat. Oh man please don't even start down that road. lol
Unless you are suggesting they create SOME missions that unlock when you hit specific rep tiers... sure that could be possible as well... its still a major issue though when you have mulitple Rep tracks. So you hit Tier 4 omega and unlock the Hive mission... that could be cool... but you could still have toons with tier 5 in every other rep (and at some point we could really have 10+ rep tracks) playing that mission with people that only have omega. So you still have issues tuning the difficulty properly.
STO is casual game we all have to face that... they won't be doing Dungeon gear... and I don't think they are going to tie PvE mission options to gear/rep unlocks.
So we have to deal with what they have.... they have a TON of level 50 toons. Probalm is right now we really have 50... 50+ ... and 50++ ect.
Really though if you can think of a better way for them to put the game into a place where they can honestly tune PvE missions properly. ( am not even touching PvP but yes its part of this game as well)... speak up cause they could use the help if you know a better way.
When I was so overpowered
Rep wasnt much, of a friend of mine
The tables have turned (yeah)
Cause me and them passives have parted
That kind of OP was the killer kind...
Listen
All I wanted was some energy damage resists
And then i came to read this thread
and got pissed
I was cryin when I ground it
I was tryin to get more crit
Reppin is sweet misery
I was cryin just to grind you
Now theyre nerfin cause I got youuuuu
Do what you do, down on me, yeahh...
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
From what little I know of Modders -- they do so out of passion and love and a need to make things better .
The only ppl who I think still have that in the STO team are the artists (and by that I mean environment and ship , not UI) .
The rest of that "gang" just comes in for a days job .
It feels like it .
It smells like it .
And with the lack of progression , it's ultimately undeniable .
And this is why a small part of me called out "I quit" (Rep's that is) .
I no longer feel rage .
And another part of me feels very saddened by this .
Why should I be angry when ppl like the OP present this as a "good thing" .
It's pathetic .
It's a pathetic continuation of a pathetic system which even has it's initial KDF rewards broken even today .
There are better ppl to be angry at .
Well perhaps you can suggest that....
Why not increase reward for EACH tier earned instead of tier 5.
I like the massive boost of Dilihtium and such from getting tier 5.
What if each tier unlock on each reward... had a bonus.
Perhaps not a massive dilihitum injection... but what about ONE free piece of gear... or Enough bonus marks to complete a project for one. OR crazy idea why not a nice bump of EC... or store points.
In LOTRO seeing as I have mentioned it when you earn a trait in game from doing what ever (killing 1000 of X or completing some exploration ect) you got a bonus amount of store points.
Perhaps
tier 1 unlocks... would reward 25 Cstore points + 1 million EC + 200 marks.
tier 2 unlocks... would reward 50 Cstore points + 2 million EC + 300 marks.
tier 3 unlocks... would reward 75 Cstore points + 4 million EC + 400 marks.
tier 4 unlocks... would reward 100 Cstore points + 10 million EC + 500 marks.
tier 5 unlocks... would reward Same as they do now.
Why not... it would solve the I didn't get nothing wine... and then the rep unlock would be just one more of the bonuses for unlocking the tier X part of the rep store.
As for not sleeping... I'm mixing a friends new disc for him today because I'm a super nice guy and I don't want to be working on it for weeks. lol I need the distraction... work argue work argue. Don't judge me.
This guy. Right here.
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Since the thread is here for player input, I'll do just that, and then leave. No, I did not read any of the previous posts. No, I do not care if I am repeating what someone else has almost certainly said before.
I love the direction of this change to the rep passives. There are only two things I don't like about it. The first being I won't get a refund for the single respec token I once bought. But it was just one, so... oh well. Easy come, easy go.
The other thing I hate about it is... well I think six slots would be better than four. Four just seems a little too limiting, while eight might have the potential to be even more overpowered than the previous system, given that players can now mix and match "opposite" powers as they please. 6 seems like the sweet spot to me, like a 15% Zen bonus.
What I especially like about this overhaul, more than anything else, is that all the passives now have straightforward, easy to understand math in their description. If only we could get the devs to do this for captain skills as well. I know there are charts and guides out there that have figured out most of the math on their own, but it would be nice if I didn't have to alt tab and google how much 3 points of subspace decompiler affects the stun duration of... whatever.
A nice "this skill adds +X to your thingaburger per point" and "each point of this increases that doomaflatchy's effectiveness by +N%."
Wouldn't that be grand?
That is all, you may now continue your bickering.
"we’ve had to constrain our powers due to the fact that the most dedicated players would have all of them active at any given time. " -Yeah..that's a good thing, right? What's wrong with having eight active powers that you've earned working for you? Don't you want to keep "dedicated" players and not pander to the Silver leech? Yes..LEECH!!! The Dreaded "L" word.
"Ultimately, it’s been clear that the system as it exists on live is not infinitely scalable – if we had 200 Reputation powers, the difference between a fresh max-level character and one who’d spent hundreds of hours at endgame would just be too large for them to play together." - Wait what? We don't have 200 Rep powers first off which makes this an alarmist cowardly statement. It's meant to be different. A lvl 50 with 500 hours of game play should be more powerful then a fresh lvl 50 or else what's the point? Fresh 50, do your time and your grind like a man! Play together? This game is ENTIRELY soloable content to level 50! You never need the help of a single person to get 50 or rep marks!
"they’ve also forced players to make semi-permanent build decisions without regard for what type of ship they’re flying or what group role they’re trying to play. " -The ship we"re flying? Dude that means almost nothing since the skew isn't much. Engineer toons like mine can fly ANYTHING and still whomp TRIBBLE. Group role..lol..this ain't WoW. 5 Sci capts in any event is just fine for completing it respectfully. No idea what you're on about. Are you just making $#%t up?
"We want players to be able to use all of the powers they’ve earned, and we want to encourage experimentation and gaining a deeper understanding of how the game’s mechanics work. " - What? You plan on taking four actives away. Deeper understanding? You treat the mechanics math of this game like it's top secret material. There's no transparency.
"We recognize that this system revamp will cause some players to lose simultaneous access to powers they’ve earned" - Well, at least you're honest about the nerf.
"and not just a single “best spec” that people copy from a guide. " - What made you TRIBBLE this out? Do you really not know how MMORPs work? Classes have abilites and group roles. Said abilities of class have a optimization track in reference to the mechanics of the game and inclusive group position(IGP) <- I just made that up on the fly, funny I don't work for Cryptic?. Except for STO were IGP is non-existent. No group roles need ever be explained, required or filled to complete ANYTHING.
"What follows is a work-in-progress" -Yeah, tell me about it...
OK, time for "I'm rubber, you're glue" responses from the many sheep fanboys out there behind the keyboards.
I'm right there with you on the changes to passives being a pretty solid step in the right direction RE: Rep System, however, the above would pretty handily demolish STO's economy, and probably disrupt the Dilithium Exchange(a key difference between LOTRO and STO) so severely that the long term repercussions for the game could be... less than ok.
There's also the point to consider that much of LOTRO's general economy revolves around crafting, a thing (currently) all but non-existant in STO, and which even if it *did* exist, would not function in the same fashion on account of, by the Dev's own words, the best gear in the game being tied up in the rep and starbase systems.
Or, put another way, PWE giving away money? Did we wander into the Mirror Universe?
I think Cryptic is raising the level cap already. That will make all the gear obsolete. Eh, I dont really care anymore. Its a free game, dont look a gift horse in the mouth, even if its ugly as sin, its still free.
Though for the hard modes.....it could have a lockout requirement. Like it requiring mark XI purples or better, or a certain tier in reps....
Of course, a vote to kick function would solve that too.
You might have a point... just one idea on reward... I don't think kicking people 30-50 mil EC after completing 5 reps would really hurt much economy wise though.
Still the point is they COULD add rewards to tier completion instead of just Tier 5.
Perhaps instead of Cpoints and EC... they just go with gear. They did that a bit with Dyson... and they will do something like that with Undine... so depending what gear the missions drop people will still do them even if they don't care about a silly passive.
Still nothing saying they can't sweeten this change for people by rewarding some form of Tier completion reward.... and make them retroactive.
So all these people wining that they have ground out 5 levels of 4 reps boo hoo hoo could be made somewhat happier perhaps.
It could be anything... it could even be "advertisement" style rewards... like what about some account bound lockbox keys. Chances are most people would open junk anyway... but sure perhaps the odd person pulls a lockbox ship with there free key and is super happy.
Not sure a vote kick would solve that problem really... unless they are adding a flag over all our heads that says this is the level of rep I have and this is the gear I have loaded.
Last I heard was they didn't want to raise the cap... hey could be wrong though. Cryptic does some random things at times.
Which is a whole other can of idiotic worms to open after giving us all the fleet stuff to progress through they then make us all have to do it again.
Some people found voice lines recorded to Congratulate the Fleet admiral and the Dahar master, as well as mark XIV versions for rep gear, and Mark XIII version for rep dil store gear.
No doublt we'll see fleet Better advanced and better elite gear for 150k fleet credits and 50k dil....
Where's the fun in that?
Well if that is true, that does sort of suck then.
All well at least I don't HAVE to grind all the new reps on my alts.
We'll see what they do on the level cap I guess.... I guess it is possible they don't touch the ships... we already have enough going not sure we need more console slots hull armor ect. Not like Cryptic to leave money on the table either though is it.
Universal Voucher for one Fleet Gear/BOff/Outfit/Whatever, would be sweet.
The 50 mil EC probably would be decent if the default assumption wasn't "limit everyone to 10, then make real cash off people selling Zen to people trading dilithium to buy cheap store unlocks like our EC cap removal."
Oh...I see... Typical gov't thinking... So it's not FAIR that new Vice Admirals don't have the same punch as Vice Admirals who have been grinding since Beta. So we punish everyone who has already been grinding under the current system by taking abilities away. Punish those who have worked hard to enjoy the game as they see fit to make it more FAIR...Great way to treat your long time loyal clients... What's next? A tax on energy credits or dilithium to give them to lower level players?...lol
Ya thats true... I'm sure anything they did they would do with a eye on how people could exploit it.
A fleet gear token ya why not... hocks the 2 systems together only slightly. Encourages players doing one to contribute to the other.
Ya stuff like that the pushes there other systems on people I thnk would be doable.
They could even add a new "Reputation Gift" box. Perhaps every time you complete a Major project you could earn one. (the way Dyson gives you the gear box)... that Gift box could have anything in it from store gear... to lockbox keys... doff packs.... heck they could even make that part of a Weekend Bonus. Have "reputation weekend" where Rep marks are doubled. As well as Reputation reward boxes being gold all weekend... and having a higher drop rate of nice stuff... or even a chance to pull Lockbox ships or what ever. When completing a full tier it could reward Extra boxes.
So tier 1 completion could give 5 extra boxes... 2 could reward 10 ect.
Make that retroactive... and all the people that have full rep tiers now... could get a nice pile of boxes to open when things change.