If you had 8 nickels before, and now you have 4 dimes, is that a nerf because you have half as many coins?
Sorry, I can't help it... if you beat someone with a sock that contains 5 $10 bills will they take the same amount of blunt force trauma as if you had beaten them with a sack of 5000 pennies? Especially if that sock is only allowed to contain 5 bills of any size and the original sack of pennies could contain as many pennies as you happen to place inside it... imagine the difference between a sock of 5 $100 bills vs 50000 pennies :eek:
In all seriousness, though that's exactly the point. By enforcing a limit to the powers we can obtain we get something a tad more balanced... and unlike the base Trait system we can swap Traitsets at any time out of combat and have allocated slots for Ground and Space? Honestly, it looks like a minor PvE nerf and a wonderful PvP balance point since it allows opposing combatants easier access to equivalent numbers of traits. At the same time, you gain access to more powers and combinations as you progress in the various reps, eventually unlocking a new Active. Seems like a decent way of addressing the power creep issues a tad.
...You might consider allocated Ground and Space Active slots as well though. After all, won't we just swap in all of our Ground Actives on Ground maps and all of our Space Actives on Space maps? 4 Ground Actives and 4 Space Actives would simply save folks a little time tinkering with the minutia and let them spend more time enjoying the game you've built. Just sayin'. :P
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
effectivly yes. as we'll have eneugh active slots that we won't lose any, when we get a new rep to grind (undine) we'll have to start making a choice, but that's not a bad thing
effectivly yes. as we'll have eneugh active slots that we won't lose any, when we get a new rep to grind (undine) we'll have to start making a choice, but that's not a bad thing
But we only have two space and ground powers each with a fifth on the way. :P
I was kinda hoping that maybe they'd make it so you can customize your armor, Color-wise I mean... >.>
You must not have been on Tribble lately, eh? The reason I asked is because on Tribble, you can customize the armor/add color to it any way you wish. You might want to try it out.
No....they and so many on the forums said NO to raising the level cap and never going beyond MK12 gear years ago. And in place of that they created the rep system. The passives we earned help us to keep growing so we were not stagnant.
So now the proposal is to limit the passives we can use? I so don't think so.
Well its sort of a catch 22 isn't it.
You can't let people continue to progress... and still have the game playable for new players.
Something has to give.
What HAS been giving right now is the level 50 content has gotten stupid easy.
So easy that they did annoying things like install 60s timers before every mission. Do you think they added that for a specific reason ? lol They added that because people where grinding to fast... because our ships are all more powerful then the content.
The catch 22 part is they can't increase the level of difficulty on the content to far... or new players are to under powered to complete it.... or They get QQed at every time they end up in a mission with someone who is vocal about there lack of skill / gear what ever.
So what do they do do they release a new Rep system with Hard level content that will be a challange to you and your friends. Or do they release it so that it really is Level 50 content... and have you and your friends QQ about the boring mission you have to grind to complete it.
There solution is tied and true MMO 101... the only regretable thing here is that they didn't institute this from day one... back when there was only one rep anyway. No one wold have complained then and it would have been normal.
hmm i must just be having a hard time mentally picturing this
so you want to limit ships to 2 universal consoles buy giving them 2 universal slots converting one of there slots they have no to the universal. and then changing some universal consoles to eng/sci/tac for set bonus
personally i rarely use universal except the assimilated modaul i guess it might work? just change there name to "special" or "non-standard equipment" consoles
also maybe change some consoles over to devices depending on how much of a use they serve and what not
using the galaxy as an example have antimatter spread be a device and saucer sep as an engineering console and leave the cloak as a uni console
would still need to see it in action though
Exactly you got it now.
I wouldn't really be taking anything away from most people... the extreme end of the pool where people like to load up 3 Ship consoles + 2 or 3 rep consoles + another couple Lockbox/cstore consoles. Yes those builds would take a hit.
On the reverse though most players like you who only use one or two of those consoles anyway... would likely gain one Free universal console slot on your ship.
At that point you are right they can start to look at what consoles are powerful and classify them accordingly. Even perhaps going as far as making a few of them devices. That for sure could be an interesting change.
What it would allow would be fore them to go over EVERY console right now and decide which need to be limited in there use. (not restricted) and which ones could be moved around.
For the temp ship we where talking about I would probaly make the Manhim device a Sci or Engi console thinking about it more... its not a widely used conosle and I don't think it should use up one of the 2 General Equip console slots. However the Backset is always used and is super powerful and putting it in a general equip slot would make sense balance wise. (still allowing people to slot another uni cosnole) and net would be a gain of one slot.
As we get more and more consoles drop. (More are coming every lockbox) .... the combinations of crazy will (and most would say already) get out of hand. By doing this they could release SUPER powerful consoles... that is fine... because no one will be able to run all of them at once.
You can't let people continue to progress... and still have the game playable for new players.
Something has to give.
What HAS been giving right now is the level 50 content has gotten stupid easy.
So easy that they did annoying things like install 60s timers before every mission. Do you think they added that for a specific reason ? lol They added that because people where grinding to fast... because our ships are all more powerful then the content.
The catch 22 part is they can't increase the level of difficulty on the content to far... or new players are to under powered to complete it.... or They get QQed at every time they end up in a mission with someone who is vocal about there lack of skill / gear what ever.
So what do they do do they release a new Rep system with Hard level content that will be a challange to you and your friends. Or do they release it so that it really is Level 50 content... and have you and your friends QQ about the boring mission you have to grind to complete it.
There solution is tied and true MMO 101... the only regretable thing here is that they didn't institute this from day one... back when there was only one rep anyway. No one wold have complained then and it would have been normal.
So you are saying we should be okay with never leveling up past 50 ever and we should be happy to now have access to only 4 passives in space or ground at any given time...at what point did this become an acceptable future to never advance in a RPG?
Look at WoW. They are always raising the level cap. Look at the amount of people paying for that game. Now compare that to this game, a free to play MMO that stops you at level 50 and you get 4 passives....wut? yeah um no thanks.
You can't let people continue to progress... and still have the game playable for new players.
Something has to give.
What HAS been giving right now is the level 50 content has gotten stupid easy.
So easy that they did annoying things like install 60s timers before every mission. Do you think they added that for a specific reason ? lol They added that because people where grinding to fast... because our ships are all more powerful then the content.
The catch 22 part is they can't increase the level of difficulty on the content to far... or new players are to under powered to complete it.... or They get QQed at every time they end up in a mission with someone who is vocal about there lack of skill / gear what ever.
So what do they do do they release a new Rep system with Hard level content that will be a challange to you and your friends. Or do they release it so that it really is Level 50 content... and have you and your friends QQ about the boring mission you have to grind to complete it.
There solution is tied and true MMO 101... the only regretable thing here is that they didn't institute this from day one... back when there was only one rep anyway. No one wold have complained then and it would have been normal.
This is very true, I understand why people are upset,people fear change and feel like they are being stolen from. But honestly the game needs some changes to progression, it is honestly rather ridiculous to require a F2P player to grind about 4 months of content just so they can remain competitive in pvp, or even pve. Its not even level grind were there is always something to do, its a timer grind.
There are also some issues even with this system it won't encourage people to stay on longer like cryptic might want. So i do hope they have some other cards up their sleeves. Some randomization in the pve events would be nice, along with some good set bonuses and updated pieces, to encourage people to collect them.
I seriously doubt they won't raise the level cap by next expansion either. But it won't mean a new tier of ships most likely just a way to upgrade your current ones.
A large amount of bonus dilithium should be given for each Reputation completed. I spent a lot of resources on this only to have the number of powers Cut in half. This is a nerf!
Not sure if you were around for the transition to f2p and the conversion to "dilithium as the one unified currency", but at that point the more of the old currencies you had the less overall dilithium you received in the transition, majorly diminishing returns. I had a couple of newer toons who received nearly as much dilithium as my toons who had been around since launch. So, if cryptic were to "reimburse" us in dilithium for the number of reps we have already completed figure that somebody who had completed one rep will receive nearly as much as somebody who had completed all reps. Otherwise it would not be fair to the newer players, just like the reasoning for this change in the first place.
Kind of, kind of not. We're improving almost every single Rep power across the board from a PvE standpoint, bringing them up to the new standard of "How strong should a Reputation Trait power be?" You will have fewer powers now, but each of them will be more impactful than individual powers were before.
Then it defeat the propose of change the reputation to close the gap to who just got to level 50 and to who is level 50 for years and play every day.
I find it a very bad change for some reasons.
One, we who spend hours and hours dont want to feel closer to who just turn to level 50 or is a casual player, most reputation i work hard for the abilities, i sure wouldnt level up many of then if i was limited to 4 space and 4 ground.
I also think maybe a system as the character trait would be more acceptable. Where you have 8 slots, you choose if you want to be a powerhouse of space (picard), ground (sisko) or balanced (kirk).
But well, do what you guys feel is best, if it realy wont nerf down only change the dynamic nothing will change realy...but if it do nerf down for who work hard... you guys can add any new reputation with many nice traits.. people wont botter if to add anything new will need to give up the good old traits as well.
No you are wrong. We currently have 16 passives. (8 space and 8 ground right now)
The proposal is 4 space and 4 ground. They are doing this cause we will have another 2 space and 2 ground with season 9.
If they do this, they will be loosing paying members. If the passives are so useless then fix them don't remove or limit them.
No, you are.
Right now you have 16 passives from a pool of 16 (selected by a choice of competing pairs some quite a while back), and you have to PAY to change them.
New system you'll have 8 passives from a pool of 32, and you can change them for free outside of combat.
It's not that they're useless, it's that all together they're too much. In the words of Tim Gunn "you need to learn to edit". Even if you picked the best region8 in the current system, the worst 4 of those 8 will depend on your location. The passives that are best for ISE, aren't always going to be the best for the tower fights in Contested Zone or the current Mirror event, because the Voth Immunity Matrix hampering DPS while the multiple targets of the MIE.
One of my fleet has a setup that can handle a tac cube with ease, draining it and killing it. The first day of Mirror was the first time he'd blown up in 6 months, because it needed different skills.
Thats what this is going to enable.
And frankly, any 'vet' that can't adapt to this, and work out the passives to use when, isn't as good as they think they are.
Right now you have 16 passives from a pool of 16 (selected by a choice of competing pairs some quite a while back), and you have to PAY to change them.
New system you'll have 8 passives from a pool of 32, and you can change them for free outside of combat.
I
Actually, you currently have 16 passives from a potential pool of 32.
The distinction is important.
The current system has, at various points, choices between very attractive passives.
This was important, as a means of controlling power creep, as you could only choose one or the other not both.
The proposed system, as currently set up, actually gives you the ability to choose 4 out of 32 traits.
Which means, combinations of powers that will be imbalancing and OP.
Consider a science ship with max aux and both the Nukara T4 rep passives, not just one of them.
A simple solution would be to make the four passive slots we're to get tiered.
The devil is in the details of how the issues you raise are addressed.
I have no disagreement that there are these issues, but too many of these ideas wont actually work.
Hawks proposal, as you ably demonstrated, actually buffs min maxers while giving little to no extra power to new VAs.
Thus it simply fails to address the stated issue.
I can understand why PvP players in particular would like to limit universal consoles too.
However, if they were balanced properly in the first place, which would have been the opposite of 'super powerful', this wouldnt be an issue.
This whole affair cries out for a much more measured approach.
I say, run this on tribble, but dont transfer it to holodeck.
Not until all the rest of the balancing adjustments have been made and we can look at how it all works, not just one bit of it.
Because, while the aim is worthy, the approach needs some work.
And that IS what tribble is for.
Its not about giving up on creep control... it is about meaningful options. Yes if you limit people to 4 passives they CAN be stronger and not really effect balance. Yes I pointed out a min maxer could Push there max... but over all the build is still loosing something on the other end. People right now complain escorts tank to much or cruisers do to much dmg with no draw backs... well why is that ? Its because everyone can have EVERYTHING all the time with no real costs. Doffs do have a limit on numbers however perhaps the catagorizations need to be looked at. (and frankly specific doffs need adressed... tech doffs for example WHERE balanced when they where released becasue Aux to Battery was on the same global as EPTx... when that changed that doff became highly unbalanced)
As I see it a limited amount of everything CAN be balanced properly.
Yes I stated more powerful consoles COULD exist IF there was a limit on the number... if everyone was allowed One or Two powerful console options it balances itself that way. Where there could be 4 or 5 very strong consoles in the game... it balances because no one ship can run all of them at one time.
We have that in the doff system to a degree... with some doff catagories only being one of ... others being 3... the system needs a once over no doubt... still the idea is there in that system as well... some things CAN be more powerful be cause they are lmited. Most doffs that you can only have one of are VERY powerful and would be OP if you could slot 2 or 3.
Same logic COULD apply to a new console System. This is one way it doesn't 1) appear to be a nerf to people that like to Cry about such things.... and 2) it could make them powerful enough to entice sales for Crypitc... I don't want to see them not make money. Sure release powerful cosnoles all you like just don't give us a system where people are loading EVERY powerful cosnole released for 6 months onto one ship and making a joke out of the PVE content and a mockery of any type of balance in PvP.
General chat is much the same as the forums on this topic.
I have to say i seem to remenber a lot of people grumbling about the rep system when it was introduced and now people a whinging that its being changed...that is funny.
Seriously though they need to make this playable for the newbies because there the only ones who will spend lots of money on the game.
If you have been playing for3 years like me i dont spend any money on the game anymore. I bought a life time sub ages ago , have 9 characters,genrate more than enough dil that if i ever want anything from the zen store i just convert, have plenty of ec across my toons fro exchange etc. So the game costs me nothing.
So where do the paying customers come from?, the new ones...and that is where the game is at. I f it wants to be going in another 3-4 years then the need those people to stay a spend, so the game has to cater for that group.
I reckon everyone will get over it pretty quickly because it makes us all go back and look at builds and see what we can do to maximise our characters with what we have available, and if it makes it easier for new players to get set in the game, so be it.
The elitists will always cry foul when such changes are made, but they keep coming back to play.
General chat is much the same as the forums on this topic.
I have to say i seem to remenber a lot of people grumbling about the rep system when it was introduced and now people a whinging that its being changed...that is funny.
Seriously though they need to make this playable for the newbies because there the only ones who will spend lots of money on the game.
If you have been playing for3 years like me i dont spend any money on the game anymore. I bought a life time sub ages ago , have 9 characters,genrate more than enough dil that if i ever want anything from the zen store i just convert, have plenty of ec across my toons fro exchange etc. So the game costs me nothing.
So where do the paying customers come from?, the new ones...and that is where the game is at. I f it wants to be going in another 3-4 years then the need those people to stay a spend, so the game has to cater for that group.
I reckon everyone will get over it pretty quickly because it makes us all go back and look at builds and see what we can do to maximise our characters with what we have available, and if it makes it easier for new players to get set in the game, so be it.
The elitists will always cry foul when such changes are made, but they keep coming back to play.
But after reach level 50 have the reputation as it is and see the result on the older players is a good reason for some one to play a MMO.
If this reason is loss or reward bad for the hard work...every one will play less.
Also they put it as if its a impossible task to max out the rep system. It isnt, see it as the grind for level 60 equivalent.
We all want new players to come in and feel like they can play this game and have fun from day one right though to the point where after a month or two of building there toons... they are jumping into hard mode missions or PvP with long time vets and having a good time... and sticking around.
Aaaand congratz .
I think you've hit the point of this nerf on the head .
See, this nerf has (IMHO) nothing to do with PVE content .
Why ?
Because new players loose nothing by teaming up with older players in PVE -- older players with more advance Reps . Hell , they GAIN by teaming up with them .
The only reason this ruins PVE is that there is no Level progression in PVE .
You keep getting powers , but you keep not getting newer and harder enemies to fight .
STO's development mentality is broke ... and this is just one bore band aid to hide how bad things are .
PVP it's different ... yet it is the same (in a bad way) .
Because if we ignore the console cheese , and the uber rare Doff's that the new player has no chance to get (unless he cracks open his wallet big time) -- we still get to a point where some Rep powers will be at the end of specific Rep's , and Reps are the ONLY thing that new players can't BUY their way though ... -- which means that they will still be lagging way behind ... (in PVP) .
The game is not likely going to grow much more... I know I don't want to see it shrink away and slowly die. The reality is though this game is at that point in its life... it has peaked and now it is about maintaining numbers...
That's f-ing depressing mate ... , especially when it comes on the tail of "we've grown our Dev numbers" and "we've had our biggest success with our expansion last year" .
If the system stays as it is and creep just keeps running... STO will turn into EVE no doubt. A game where new players are a low single digit % of the pop. EVE has the long time players sold and they only loose a few players every month... STO doesn't have that going for them.
And from that , what I take away is that STO needs a change of direction .
Be that a complete systems revamp , be that a complete PVP system revamp , be that a refocus on content and a move away from the grind/event theme .
But we're not getting that are we ?
And EVE is not run by PWE is it ? It's not being squeezed like an orange for all it's worth with a crazy short sighted agenda (and development) ?
REALLY Bad idea Craptic. I guess i was proven right in the end. the rep system should have never been made if you are doing this. what was the point? I say scrap the whole rep system since it obviously failed. and recoupe in zen of everyone who invested resources in it.
As for power creep. maybe in Elachi weapons. My main toon is a pre S7 toon. Among his best ships is the free Sovereign which has the old omega weapons on it and the old borg set (still not happy with the set split i miss the sheild regen for her.) Thyat's mark 12 purple weapons is mark 10 to 12 consoles with a point defense in there. Now take a fresh 50 with their sovereign. likely mark 10 common or green weapons and consoles. I better be able to beat him.
Cryptic and have one simple sentence. DON'T DO THIS!
Aaaand congratz .
I think you've hit the point of this nerf on the head .
See, this nerf has (IMHO) nothing to do with PVE content .
Why ?
Because new players loose nothing by teaming up with older players in PVE -- older players with more advance Reps . Hell , they GAIN by teaming up with them .
But in PVP it's different ... yet it is the same (in a bad way) .
Because if we ignore the console cheese , and the uber rare Doff's that the new player has no chance to get (unless he cracks open his wallet big time) -- we still get to a point where some Rep powers will be at the end of specific Rep's , and Reps are the ONLY thing that new players can't BUY their way though ... -- which means that they will still be lagging way behind ... (in PVP) .
As Hawk said PvP and PvE mechanics are identical. If its bad in one place its bad in the other. Only difference is PvP makes it easier to detect.
Right now yes new players do suffer when teamed with older players...
Tell me when was the last time you pugged a PvE mission ? (ok its gotten better lately I will admit not that many new players at the moment I think is part of it).
I have many times seen People QQing in zone about X or Y player... Silly noobs why are you in X or Y ship why are you not Doing this or that. Vets can get nasty when they have to put up with some new players. lol
That costs Cryptic players as well... Just saying.
Truth is PvE is NOT in a good place.. Sure many of you are not complaining because you enjoy being able to get your missions done super fast.
Myself I HATE the new missions ... one of the biggest things that drives me nuts the 60s wait before everyone... why do you think they added that jem ? It was a lazy add by Cryptic because we where finishing things faster then we where supposed to.
I will glady take a 40% nerf across the board if I don't have to put up with 60s of doing nothing before everything I do. Might take me 60s longer in the end but at least I'll be playing and not waiting on artifical timers.
As Hawk said PvP and PvE mechanics are identical. If its bad in one place its bad in the other. Only difference is PvP makes it easier to detect.
Right now yes new players do suffer when teamed with older players...
Tell me when was the last time you pugged a PvE mission ? (ok its gotten better lately I will admit not that many new players at the moment I think is part of it).
I have many times seen People QQing in zone about X or Y player... Silly noobs why are you in X or Y ship why are you not Doing this or that. Vets can get nasty when they have to put up with some new players. lol
That costs Cryptic players as well... Just saying.
Truth is PvE is NOT in a good place.. Sure many of you are not complaining because you enjoy being able to get your missions done super fast.
Myself I HATE the new missions ... one of the biggest things that drives me nuts the 60s wait before everyone... why do you think they added that jem ? It was a lazy add by Cryptic because we where finishing things faster then we where supposed to.
I will glady take a 40% nerf across the board if I don't have to put up with 60s of doing nothing before everything I do. Might take me 60s longer in the end but at least I'll be playing and not waiting on artifical timers.
Players with nasty atitude wont change it tho due to be nerf down to a "closer level" to the new players.
This is a man kind flaw that if that is the reason for the change of the rep system...it wont work at all.
Also there will always be the 20+k dps aux2bat guy who dont give too much thot of the rep system as they are better in every aspect over even veterans who refuse to use aux2bat.
There will always be the life time sub guy with the best gear and exotic ships and consoles set...
In the end the lack of equalization of veterans and newbies will always be present... so the reputation could be a saving grace for new players, they could see that if they grind the rep they could be 1 step closer.
Also about the new missions wornup wait.. the mirror is clear due to the cutscene. But if players are finishing too fast...add a new dificulty to the current missions, veteran..
SO there is Normal, Elite and Veteran...
I start doing X or Y grind... and with in 10min I find myself watching TV.
The game is BORING... please nerf the heck out of my toons. It would be nice to find anything in this game challenging enough to deserve my full attention again.
I said it before , and I'll say it again : cookie-utter PVP .
Or as you've experienced it : PVP on T2-3 (preferably 2) .
Same playing field , uber low number of powers , slight variants to classes , no adding of powers of any sort , no Doffs , no consoles , no Reps , no "special Crit Boffs" , nothing but a leveled low brow playing field .
It might not be about Vape builds and consoles and acquisition and polish and tweaking builds -- but it would be about something BETTER !
It would be about FUN , and even better then that -- fun that ANYONE can join and be on the same footing .... -- yes , especially newbies .
The question is , is the current PVP community willing to go through that (?) and would Cryptic be willing to actually work on PVP on the long term .
(my guess is , no not really ... on both accounts )
Players with nasty atitude wont change it tho due to be nerf down to a "closer level" to the new players.
This is a man kind flaw that if that is the reason for the change of the rep system...it wont work at all.
Also there will always be the 20+k dps aux2bat guy who dont give too much thot of the rep system as they are better in every aspect over even veterans who refuse to use aux2bat.
There will always be the life time sub guy with the best gear and exotic ships and consoles set...
In the end the lack of equalization of veterans and newbies will always be present... so the reputation could be a saving grace for new players, they could see that if they grind the rep they could be 1 step closer.
Also about the new missions wornup wait.. the mirror is clear due to the cutscene. But if players are finishing too fast...add a new dificulty to the current missions, veteran..
SO there is Normal, Elite and Veteran...
Well lets all hope that things like tech doffs are the next thing in there sights. I think they have mentioned they are working on things like FAW... so I hate to break it to some of you guys. It is very likely with in the next few patches the 30k+ dps silly beam builds will likely be gone.
32 Passives, roughly half of which are defensive in nature, limiting players to 4 passives will just result in people choosing the best 4 damage boosting passives the majority of the time. I'd give people 4 offensive & 4 defensive passives, it's close to what we have now, but it caps the problem for the future.
The issue with new players is the gap in Crth, a fresh 50 is looking at 3/4% while a maxed vet is closer to mid 30's with double a fresh 50's Crtd, 1/3rd of the Crth is from boffs that cost 25+mill each. The fact that those boffs are still mostly limited to the Romulan faction is a major balance issue, and the cost is an even bigger factor.
ATB helps cruisers with limited Tac officer space more then it boosts damage, that is mostly down to the combination of Crth, Crtd & debuffs stacking into the negative, essentially buffing damage well beyond what should be possible.
Well lets all hope that things like tech doffs are the next thing in there sights. I think they have mentioned they are working on things like FAW... so I hate to break it to some of you guys. It is very likely with in the next few patches the 30k+ dps silly beam builds will likely be gone.
But that is the wrong thing to change as well.
FaW isnt the issue, it is the aux2battery with the techs.
Faw for who uses a cruiser without aux2batt and techs is the only competitive bof ability for run a cruiser.
Exept if the change to FaW is that aux2bat with techs wont affect it cool down ofcourse
I said it before , and I'll say it again : cookie-utter PVP .
Or as you've experienced it : PVP on T2-3 (preferably 2) .
Same playing field , uber low number of powers , slight variants to classes , no adding of powers of any sort , no Doffs , no consoles , no Reps , no "special Crit Boffs" , nothing but a leveled low brow playing field .
It might not be about Vape builds and consoles and acquisition and polish and tweaking builds -- but it would be about something BETTER !
It would be about FUN , and even better then that -- fun that ANYONE can join and be on the same footing .... -- yes , especially newbies .
The question is , is the current PVP community willing to go through that (?) and would Cryptic be willing to actually work on PVP on the long term .
(my guess is , no not really ... on both accounts )
Well we have been willing to do things like Tyler Durden. When there are enough of us playing regular. Honestly right now the majority of people that where driving that are playing other games right now... so I don't think we are running much. However when we where yes we where very capable of having a lot of very fun matches... with end game mechanics even. Granted some of the most recent changes have soured many.
I don't think Cryptic should be looking at PvP only fixes.... the issue right now is deeper then PvP.
If STO is Cryptics mine.... PvP is the canary. Its not big but the players dive into every mecahnic in depth pretty much first. When there are issues it is PvP where it is noticed first. That doesn't mean that because the canary (PvP) runs into the issue first it doesn't exist for Everyone else.
PvE is the real issue right now... Cryptic has slapped a lot of band aids on the last little while. They can't continue thought to keep releasing missions with Hard timers to keep people from going to fast. Really what is the point of trying in something like the current Mirror ? There is no point at all it takes the same amount of time no matter how well you do. lol Why was it designed that way ? We all know why don't we.
They do need to address the actual game mechanics... and yes that will benifit PvP... but that is NOT the reason to do it. Lets be honest most of the $ that comes in comes in from PvE people. At least that is how Cryptic sees it... but things are at a point where the bad mechanics are starting to shine through and I think Cryptic realizes it is going to cost them actual players and real $.
I'm very suspect of all these changes. Frankly it has a hint of the stench from "Enhancement Diversification" from City of Heroes.
So you want to battle power creep, but why only address rep? Certainly ships like the Jem Hader Attack Ship and others of it's ilk promote power creep? But I get it those ships are profitable. Addressing power creep in reputation traits only takes away from the most malleable of assets, players time. It feels like bait and switch to me ( again a hint to "ED")
If you really want to slow power creep and this is the only way then you have have to address the power creep head on. You have to scale back the DPS bonus traits and enhance other traits.
You talk about a new 50 and veteran 50 not playing in the same room.. the real comparison is the 3 professions. compare the dps potential of a Tac VS. and Engineer in space, same ship, same gear.... you will find the true gap and it is large. Sci's at least can take the long road to dps... All I fear this new system will do is focus the point of Tactical's dps spear and leave the other two classes less equipped to tag along.
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Sorry, I can't help it... if you beat someone with a sock that contains 5 $10 bills will they take the same amount of blunt force trauma as if you had beaten them with a sack of 5000 pennies? Especially if that sock is only allowed to contain 5 bills of any size and the original sack of pennies could contain as many pennies as you happen to place inside it... imagine the difference between a sock of 5 $100 bills vs 50000 pennies :eek:
In all seriousness, though that's exactly the point. By enforcing a limit to the powers we can obtain we get something a tad more balanced... and unlike the base Trait system we can swap Traitsets at any time out of combat and have allocated slots for Ground and Space? Honestly, it looks like a minor PvE nerf and a wonderful PvP balance point since it allows opposing combatants easier access to equivalent numbers of traits. At the same time, you gain access to more powers and combinations as you progress in the various reps, eventually unlocking a new Active. Seems like a decent way of addressing the power creep issues a tad.
...You might consider allocated Ground and Space Active slots as well though. After all, won't we just swap in all of our Ground Actives on Ground maps and all of our Space Actives on Space maps? 4 Ground Actives and 4 Space Actives would simply save folks a little time tinkering with the minutia and let them spend more time enjoying the game you've built. Just sayin'. :P
effectivly yes. as we'll have eneugh active slots that we won't lose any, when we get a new rep to grind (undine) we'll have to start making a choice, but that's not a bad thing
But we only have two space and ground powers each with a fifth on the way. :P
Oh well, at least we have some time.
Well its sort of a catch 22 isn't it.
You can't let people continue to progress... and still have the game playable for new players.
Something has to give.
What HAS been giving right now is the level 50 content has gotten stupid easy.
So easy that they did annoying things like install 60s timers before every mission. Do you think they added that for a specific reason ? lol They added that because people where grinding to fast... because our ships are all more powerful then the content.
The catch 22 part is they can't increase the level of difficulty on the content to far... or new players are to under powered to complete it.... or They get QQed at every time they end up in a mission with someone who is vocal about there lack of skill / gear what ever.
So what do they do do they release a new Rep system with Hard level content that will be a challange to you and your friends. Or do they release it so that it really is Level 50 content... and have you and your friends QQ about the boring mission you have to grind to complete it.
There solution is tied and true MMO 101... the only regretable thing here is that they didn't institute this from day one... back when there was only one rep anyway. No one wold have complained then and it would have been normal.
Exactly you got it now.
I wouldn't really be taking anything away from most people... the extreme end of the pool where people like to load up 3 Ship consoles + 2 or 3 rep consoles + another couple Lockbox/cstore consoles. Yes those builds would take a hit.
On the reverse though most players like you who only use one or two of those consoles anyway... would likely gain one Free universal console slot on your ship.
At that point you are right they can start to look at what consoles are powerful and classify them accordingly. Even perhaps going as far as making a few of them devices. That for sure could be an interesting change.
What it would allow would be fore them to go over EVERY console right now and decide which need to be limited in there use. (not restricted) and which ones could be moved around.
For the temp ship we where talking about I would probaly make the Manhim device a Sci or Engi console thinking about it more... its not a widely used conosle and I don't think it should use up one of the 2 General Equip console slots. However the Backset is always used and is super powerful and putting it in a general equip slot would make sense balance wise. (still allowing people to slot another uni cosnole) and net would be a gain of one slot.
As we get more and more consoles drop. (More are coming every lockbox) .... the combinations of crazy will (and most would say already) get out of hand. By doing this they could release SUPER powerful consoles... that is fine... because no one will be able to run all of them at once.
So you are saying we should be okay with never leveling up past 50 ever and we should be happy to now have access to only 4 passives in space or ground at any given time...at what point did this become an acceptable future to never advance in a RPG?
Look at WoW. They are always raising the level cap. Look at the amount of people paying for that game. Now compare that to this game, a free to play MMO that stops you at level 50 and you get 4 passives....wut? yeah um no thanks.
This is very true, I understand why people are upset,people fear change and feel like they are being stolen from. But honestly the game needs some changes to progression, it is honestly rather ridiculous to require a F2P player to grind about 4 months of content just so they can remain competitive in pvp, or even pve. Its not even level grind were there is always something to do, its a timer grind.
There are also some issues even with this system it won't encourage people to stay on longer like cryptic might want. So i do hope they have some other cards up their sleeves. Some randomization in the pve events would be nice, along with some good set bonuses and updated pieces, to encourage people to collect them.
I seriously doubt they won't raise the level cap by next expansion either. But it won't mean a new tier of ships most likely just a way to upgrade your current ones.
Not sure if you were around for the transition to f2p and the conversion to "dilithium as the one unified currency", but at that point the more of the old currencies you had the less overall dilithium you received in the transition, majorly diminishing returns. I had a couple of newer toons who received nearly as much dilithium as my toons who had been around since launch. So, if cryptic were to "reimburse" us in dilithium for the number of reps we have already completed figure that somebody who had completed one rep will receive nearly as much as somebody who had completed all reps. Otherwise it would not be fair to the newer players, just like the reasoning for this change in the first place.
Just giving up on power creep control now?
The devil is in the details of how the issues you raise are addressed.
I have no disagreement that there are these issues, but too many of these ideas wont actually work.
Hawks proposal, as you ably demonstrated, actually buffs min maxers while giving little to no extra power to new VAs.
Thus it simply fails to address the stated issue.
I can understand why PvP players in particular would like to limit universal consoles too.
However, if they were balanced properly in the first place, which would have been the opposite of 'super powerful', this wouldnt be an issue.
This whole affair cries out for a much more measured approach.
I say, run this on tribble, but dont transfer it to holodeck.
Not until all the rest of the balancing adjustments have been made and we can look at how it all works, not just one bit of it.
Because, while the aim is worthy, the approach needs some work.
And that IS what tribble is for.
I find it a very bad change for some reasons.
One, we who spend hours and hours dont want to feel closer to who just turn to level 50 or is a casual player, most reputation i work hard for the abilities, i sure wouldnt level up many of then if i was limited to 4 space and 4 ground.
I also think maybe a system as the character trait would be more acceptable. Where you have 8 slots, you choose if you want to be a powerhouse of space (picard), ground (sisko) or balanced (kirk).
But well, do what you guys feel is best, if it realy wont nerf down only change the dynamic nothing will change realy...but if it do nerf down for who work hard... you guys can add any new reputation with many nice traits.. people wont botter if to add anything new will need to give up the good old traits as well.
No, you are.
Right now you have 16 passives from a pool of 16 (selected by a choice of competing pairs some quite a while back), and you have to PAY to change them.
New system you'll have 8 passives from a pool of 32, and you can change them for free outside of combat.
It's not that they're useless, it's that all together they're too much. In the words of Tim Gunn "you need to learn to edit". Even if you picked the best region8 in the current system, the worst 4 of those 8 will depend on your location. The passives that are best for ISE, aren't always going to be the best for the tower fights in Contested Zone or the current Mirror event, because the Voth Immunity Matrix hampering DPS while the multiple targets of the MIE.
One of my fleet has a setup that can handle a tac cube with ease, draining it and killing it. The first day of Mirror was the first time he'd blown up in 6 months, because it needed different skills.
Thats what this is going to enable.
And frankly, any 'vet' that can't adapt to this, and work out the passives to use when, isn't as good as they think they are.
Actually, you currently have 16 passives from a potential pool of 32.
The distinction is important.
The current system has, at various points, choices between very attractive passives.
This was important, as a means of controlling power creep, as you could only choose one or the other not both.
The proposed system, as currently set up, actually gives you the ability to choose 4 out of 32 traits.
Which means, combinations of powers that will be imbalancing and OP.
Consider a science ship with max aux and both the Nukara T4 rep passives, not just one of them.
A simple solution would be to make the four passive slots we're to get tiered.
Its not about giving up on creep control... it is about meaningful options. Yes if you limit people to 4 passives they CAN be stronger and not really effect balance. Yes I pointed out a min maxer could Push there max... but over all the build is still loosing something on the other end. People right now complain escorts tank to much or cruisers do to much dmg with no draw backs... well why is that ? Its because everyone can have EVERYTHING all the time with no real costs. Doffs do have a limit on numbers however perhaps the catagorizations need to be looked at. (and frankly specific doffs need adressed... tech doffs for example WHERE balanced when they where released becasue Aux to Battery was on the same global as EPTx... when that changed that doff became highly unbalanced)
As I see it a limited amount of everything CAN be balanced properly.
Yes I stated more powerful consoles COULD exist IF there was a limit on the number... if everyone was allowed One or Two powerful console options it balances itself that way. Where there could be 4 or 5 very strong consoles in the game... it balances because no one ship can run all of them at one time.
We have that in the doff system to a degree... with some doff catagories only being one of ... others being 3... the system needs a once over no doubt... still the idea is there in that system as well... some things CAN be more powerful be cause they are lmited. Most doffs that you can only have one of are VERY powerful and would be OP if you could slot 2 or 3.
Same logic COULD apply to a new console System. This is one way it doesn't 1) appear to be a nerf to people that like to Cry about such things.... and 2) it could make them powerful enough to entice sales for Crypitc... I don't want to see them not make money. Sure release powerful cosnoles all you like just don't give us a system where people are loading EVERY powerful cosnole released for 6 months onto one ship and making a joke out of the PVE content and a mockery of any type of balance in PvP.
I have to say i seem to remenber a lot of people grumbling about the rep system when it was introduced and now people a whinging that its being changed...that is funny.
Seriously though they need to make this playable for the newbies because there the only ones who will spend lots of money on the game.
If you have been playing for3 years like me i dont spend any money on the game anymore. I bought a life time sub ages ago , have 9 characters,genrate more than enough dil that if i ever want anything from the zen store i just convert, have plenty of ec across my toons fro exchange etc. So the game costs me nothing.
So where do the paying customers come from?, the new ones...and that is where the game is at. I f it wants to be going in another 3-4 years then the need those people to stay a spend, so the game has to cater for that group.
I reckon everyone will get over it pretty quickly because it makes us all go back and look at builds and see what we can do to maximise our characters with what we have available, and if it makes it easier for new players to get set in the game, so be it.
The elitists will always cry foul when such changes are made, but they keep coming back to play.
If this reason is loss or reward bad for the hard work...every one will play less.
Also they put it as if its a impossible task to max out the rep system. It isnt, see it as the grind for level 60 equivalent.
Aaaand congratz .
I think you've hit the point of this nerf on the head .
See, this nerf has (IMHO) nothing to do with PVE content .
Why ?
Because new players loose nothing by teaming up with older players in PVE -- older players with more advance Reps . Hell , they GAIN by teaming up with them .
The only reason this ruins PVE is that there is no Level progression in PVE .
You keep getting powers , but you keep not getting newer and harder enemies to fight .
STO's development mentality is broke ... and this is just one bore band aid to hide how bad things are .
PVP it's different ... yet it is the same (in a bad way) .
Because if we ignore the console cheese , and the uber rare Doff's that the new player has no chance to get (unless he cracks open his wallet big time) -- we still get to a point where some Rep powers will be at the end of specific Rep's , and Reps are the ONLY thing that new players can't BUY their way though ... -- which means that they will still be lagging way behind ... (in PVP) .
That's f-ing depressing mate ... , especially when it comes on the tail of "we've grown our Dev numbers" and "we've had our biggest success with our expansion last year" .
And from that , what I take away is that STO needs a change of direction .
Be that a complete systems revamp , be that a complete PVP system revamp , be that a refocus on content and a move away from the grind/event theme .
But we're not getting that are we ?
And EVE is not run by PWE is it ? It's not being squeezed like an orange for all it's worth with a crazy short sighted agenda (and development) ?
As for power creep. maybe in Elachi weapons. My main toon is a pre S7 toon. Among his best ships is the free Sovereign which has the old omega weapons on it and the old borg set (still not happy with the set split i miss the sheild regen for her.) Thyat's mark 12 purple weapons is mark 10 to 12 consoles with a point defense in there. Now take a fresh 50 with their sovereign. likely mark 10 common or green weapons and consoles. I better be able to beat him.
Cryptic and have one simple sentence. DON'T DO THIS!
As Hawk said PvP and PvE mechanics are identical. If its bad in one place its bad in the other. Only difference is PvP makes it easier to detect.
Right now yes new players do suffer when teamed with older players...
Tell me when was the last time you pugged a PvE mission ? (ok its gotten better lately I will admit not that many new players at the moment I think is part of it).
I have many times seen People QQing in zone about X or Y player... Silly noobs why are you in X or Y ship why are you not Doing this or that. Vets can get nasty when they have to put up with some new players. lol
That costs Cryptic players as well... Just saying.
Truth is PvE is NOT in a good place.. Sure many of you are not complaining because you enjoy being able to get your missions done super fast.
Myself I HATE the new missions ... one of the biggest things that drives me nuts the 60s wait before everyone... why do you think they added that jem ? It was a lazy add by Cryptic because we where finishing things faster then we where supposed to.
I will glady take a 40% nerf across the board if I don't have to put up with 60s of doing nothing before everything I do.
This is a stupid idea. I have worked hard for the reputation powers I have. Now I feel that I am being punished and have to start all over.
Who ever had this dumb idea needs to be FIRED, NOW!!!!!
Players with nasty atitude wont change it tho due to be nerf down to a "closer level" to the new players.
This is a man kind flaw that if that is the reason for the change of the rep system...it wont work at all.
Also there will always be the 20+k dps aux2bat guy who dont give too much thot of the rep system as they are better in every aspect over even veterans who refuse to use aux2bat.
There will always be the life time sub guy with the best gear and exotic ships and consoles set...
In the end the lack of equalization of veterans and newbies will always be present... so the reputation could be a saving grace for new players, they could see that if they grind the rep they could be 1 step closer.
Also about the new missions wornup wait.. the mirror is clear due to the cutscene. But if players are finishing too fast...add a new dificulty to the current missions, veteran..
SO there is Normal, Elite and Veteran...
I said it before , and I'll say it again : cookie-utter PVP .
Or as you've experienced it : PVP on T2-3 (preferably 2) .
Same playing field , uber low number of powers , slight variants to classes , no adding of powers of any sort , no Doffs , no consoles , no Reps , no "special Crit Boffs" , nothing but a leveled low brow playing field .
It might not be about Vape builds and consoles and acquisition and polish and tweaking builds -- but it would be about something BETTER !
It would be about FUN , and even better then that -- fun that ANYONE can join and be on the same footing .... -- yes , especially newbies .
The question is , is the current PVP community willing to go through that (?) and would Cryptic be willing to actually work on PVP on the long term .
(my guess is , no not really ... on both accounts
Well lets all hope that things like tech doffs are the next thing in there sights. I think they have mentioned they are working on things like FAW... so I hate to break it to some of you guys. It is very likely with in the next few patches the 30k+ dps silly beam builds will likely be gone.
The issue with new players is the gap in Crth, a fresh 50 is looking at 3/4% while a maxed vet is closer to mid 30's with double a fresh 50's Crtd, 1/3rd of the Crth is from boffs that cost 25+mill each. The fact that those boffs are still mostly limited to the Romulan faction is a major balance issue, and the cost is an even bigger factor.
ATB helps cruisers with limited Tac officer space more then it boosts damage, that is mostly down to the combination of Crth, Crtd & debuffs stacking into the negative, essentially buffing damage well beyond what should be possible.
But that is the wrong thing to change as well.
FaW isnt the issue, it is the aux2battery with the techs.
Faw for who uses a cruiser without aux2batt and techs is the only competitive bof ability for run a cruiser.
Exept if the change to FaW is that aux2bat with techs wont affect it cool down ofcourse
Well we have been willing to do things like Tyler Durden. When there are enough of us playing regular. Honestly right now the majority of people that where driving that are playing other games right now... so I don't think we are running much. However when we where yes we where very capable of having a lot of very fun matches... with end game mechanics even. Granted some of the most recent changes have soured many.
I don't think Cryptic should be looking at PvP only fixes.... the issue right now is deeper then PvP.
If STO is Cryptics mine.... PvP is the canary. Its not big but the players dive into every mecahnic in depth pretty much first. When there are issues it is PvP where it is noticed first. That doesn't mean that because the canary (PvP) runs into the issue first it doesn't exist for Everyone else.
PvE is the real issue right now... Cryptic has slapped a lot of band aids on the last little while. They can't continue thought to keep releasing missions with Hard timers to keep people from going to fast. Really what is the point of trying in something like the current Mirror ? There is no point at all it takes the same amount of time no matter how well you do. lol Why was it designed that way ? We all know why don't we.
They do need to address the actual game mechanics... and yes that will benifit PvP... but that is NOT the reason to do it. Lets be honest most of the $ that comes in comes in from PvE people. At least that is how Cryptic sees it... but things are at a point where the bad mechanics are starting to shine through and I think Cryptic realizes it is going to cost them actual players and real $.
So you want to battle power creep, but why only address rep? Certainly ships like the Jem Hader Attack Ship and others of it's ilk promote power creep? But I get it those ships are profitable. Addressing power creep in reputation traits only takes away from the most malleable of assets, players time. It feels like bait and switch to me ( again a hint to "ED")
If you really want to slow power creep and this is the only way then you have have to address the power creep head on. You have to scale back the DPS bonus traits and enhance other traits.
You talk about a new 50 and veteran 50 not playing in the same room.. the real comparison is the 3 professions. compare the dps potential of a Tac VS. and Engineer in space, same ship, same gear.... you will find the true gap and it is large. Sci's at least can take the long road to dps... All I fear this new system will do is focus the point of Tactical's dps spear and leave the other two classes less equipped to tag along.