So your saying you want some terrible PvE stat on gear... some form of a "radiance" stat. Oh man please don't even start down that road. lol
Unless you are suggesting they create SOME missions that unlock when you hit specific rep tiers... sure that could be possible as well... its still a major issue though when you have mulitple Rep tracks. So you hit Tier 4 omega and unlock the Hive mission... that could be cool... but you could still have toons with tier 5 in every other rep (and at some point we could really have 10+ rep tracks) playing that mission with people that only have omega. So you still have issues tuning the difficulty properly.
STO is casual game we all have to face that... they won't be doing Dungeon gear... and I don't think they are going to tie PvE mission options to gear/rep unlocks.
So we have to deal with what they have.... they have a TON of level 50 toons. Probalm is right now we really have 50... 50+ ... and 50++ ect.
Really though if you can think of a better way for them to put the game into a place where they can honestly tune PvE missions properly. ( am not even touching PvP but yes its part of this game as well)... speak up cause they could use the help if you know a better way.
You do what every other mmo has done, You teach players that failing is ok. You teach players that it's not a great idea to take undergeared toons to a instance before your ready. In short you have tiers and you have progression. You have content that is a challenge and you have content that you can and you will fail on.
The unspoken thing in this all is the simple truth that you do not need the reps, you do not need gear to be able to do all end game content in this game right now. As I said, the reps are the end game. You are doing the reps to unlock more power for your toon to do what?
For STO to have lasting and long value it should be something that aspires players to work with each other and do better. At both those things it is failing. The devs are afraid to challenge players, they are afraid to allow players to fail. Failure is not the most terrible thing to happen in a mmo, you learn, you adept, you play better and you overcome.
The rep systems should be in place to help players overcome content. Not as the place to grind into for ever more power that serves no purpose.
It seems this isn't likely to be a popular change. Players that already have most or all of their rep tracks maxed out will feel like they're being robbed of something they worked for.
That aside, it's introducing yet another management headache into the game.
I mean, I get what you're saying about power creep. Really, I do, but I can't see my way clear to liking this change.
I can make a science ship with a science officer or a cruiser with an engineer that can do decent damage.
The devil is in the details. You assume the DPS counter would be 30k dps. Honestly, putting it at 3-4k dps for elites would be totally doable.
Basically, that's a team with a good chance for the optional as long as they use team chat.
That would mean leaving the difficulty level exactly where it is which is a problem. The fact that STFS are so easy with all the creep... is why we have stupid things like 60s briefings... and new missions are only timer based. They will never ever again give us a mission that is complete when everything is dead... because power creep makes those missions a joke and the obvious quick reward option. Right now that mission is infected ... its the standard quick reward everyone does because yes even a team with 3k DPS each can get it done in 7 or 8 min.
In order for new content to be challanging it would have to challange the majority of full rep people that don't have an issue hitting 20k dps. Which means adding a limit of only 3-4k. They now have to make that mission doable and the optional achievable with only 3-4k for all 5 members on a team. (or they frustrate people... see Hive) That means they would have to set that bar a lot higher to make it mean anything at all. Which brings me back to the issue with the DPS counter idea... Sci and Engi are going to be even more pushed into pure DPS builds and ships.
Make this change, and make gear easier to acquire and repping up go faster.
They are. They covered that in this blog. They're making all the reps as easy to do as Dyson Rep. They're making all the gear only Mk XII. They're opening up the gear like they do on Dyson so it's not exclusive to T5 of each rep. They're making marks easier to obtain and you get more of them per day. This is all old news announced two blogs ago.
You do what every other mmo has done, You teach players that failing is ok. You teach players that it's not a great idea to take undergeared toons to a instance before your ready. In short you have tiers and you have progression. You have content that is a challenge and you have content that you can and you will fail on.
The unspoken thing in this all is the simple truth that you do not need the reps, you do not need gear to be able to do all end game content in this game right now. As I said, the reps are the end game. You are doing the reps to unlock more power for your toon to do what?
For STO to have lasting and long value it should be something that aspires players to work with each other and do better. At both those things it is failing. The devs are afraid to challenge players, they are afraid to allow players to fail. Failure is not the most terrible thing to happen in a mmo, you learn, you adept, you play better and you overcome.
The rep systems should be in place to help players overcome content. Not as the place to grind into for ever more power that serves no purpose.
Basically, they're trying to make the game more idiot-friendly. It's not about any power-creep. It's about whiners goin where they should be prepared to take a fall thinking that they absolutely should not. BECAUSE THEY'RE 50 and it makes sense to them. They don't want to work for it, they don't want to wait, THEY WANT IT AND THEY WANT IT NOW. At the expense of those who did.
You do what every other mmo has done, You teach players that failing is ok. You teach players that it's not a great idea to take undergeared toons to a instance before your ready. In short you have tiers and you have progression. You have content that is a challenge and you have content that you can and you will fail on.
The unspoken thing in this all is the simple truth that you do not need the reps, you do not need gear to be able to do all end game content in this game right now. As I said, the reps are the end game. You are doing the reps to unlock more power for your toon to do what?
For STO to have lasting and long value it should be something that aspires players to work with each other and do better. At both those things it is failing. The devs are afraid to challenge players, they are afraid to allow players to fail. Failure is not the most terrible thing to happen in a mmo, you learn, you adept, you play better and you overcome.
The rep systems should be in place to help players overcome content. Not as the place to grind into for ever more power that serves no purpose.
Good point... hard to argue... just make it all harder and if people fail they fail. Honestly I would have no issue with that myself. I think the wine from the players though would be just as loud as the wine on this change... so they are screwed either way. lol
Like the thinking though and its a good point. Covers off the pve side of things... would still be an issue in PvP though... which is something I care about. I know its not the main reason they are making this change... but it does really have a great PvP upside.
Is it a nerf when they take away 8 nickels and give you 4 dimes?
I see it more like a restaurant who has been pitching the idea that they are making the most awesome salad in town.
With nice big advertisements on how fresh their produce is and all the different kinds of cheeses and dressings they have.
Only now they realize that there are so many people that eat salad, that they can't afford the upkeep for all those cherry tomatoes and gourmet cheeses they ship in.
Instead of wisely planning ahead, they now put on the menu that your salad is only limited to four items, but you get more of each item to fill your salad bowl.
"But I liked all the various things in your salad before."
"Yeah, but now we give you more of each and allow you to pick which ones you want."
"Well, the iceberg lettuce is good... so is the cheese, vinegrette dressing, and black olives."
"Great, and because you have been such a loyal customer, we're going to fill your salad bowl to the top with iceberg lettuce, cheese, black olives, and drown it all in way more dressing than you had before."
"That's disgusting. I also really liked your cherry tomatoes, your radishes..."
"Yeah, but new customers will also get the same 4 choices."
"I don't care about those other customers. I came here because you had really good salad. Now you're just giving me half the salad ingredients I had before, but just giving me more of it. What about the people who order salad with cherry tomatoes?"
"Oh, we just fill 1/4th of their bowl with cherry tomatoes now."
Not the plague... I think it should be encouraged... what needs to be stopped is the LOADING of those types of consoles.
I think I had said remove one Console from every ship... and replace it with 2 Universal only console slots.
This would mean any console people got out of a lockbox or with there Cstore ships (or hey my new Ship Requisition Tab) would almost be encouraged... but you wouldn't be able to use more then 2 at one time.
By all menas load your Plasmotic leech consoles... load your AMS or ISO. No issues.... just lets stop the insane levels of it where right now people are loading 6 7 8 Universal consoles at times.
For everyone right now my system would give you ONE FREE new slot you didn't have before.
The only issue really would be some of the ship packs with 3 consoles... but that is easily fixed, by making 2 of the 3 and perhaps even all 3 of them specific console types... Be that Engi Sci or tac... which ever makes most sense I guess.
Why dont they just take the game down altogether to make whiny people like you happy then huh? It is people like you that is ultimately going to kill the game in the end. So, please, keep cryin. Mooron
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Basically, they're trying to make the game more idiot-friendly. It's not about any power-creep. It's about whiners goin where they should be prepared to take a fall thinking that they absolutely should not. BECAUSE THEY'RE 50 and it makes sense to them. They don't want to work for it, they don't want to wait, THEY WANT IT AND THEY WANT IT NOW. At the expense of those who did.
It's a game, not a chore. Games are meant to be enjoyed.
While I'm complaining, I might as well throw in another little moan.
Let's say that I winnow down my list of currently available rep powers to the four space and four ground that I feel I absolutely can't live without (yes, yes, free instant respecs between missions, I know, I know - I also know that I can't be doing with all that faff).
So I've got my four abilities for, say, ground. Then along comes Undine rep, and its new choices in that department. What is my incentive to replace "Stuff I've Decided I Can't Live Without" with new and untried abilities?
In short, what is my incentive to engage with Undine rep at all?
Bear in mind that rep grinding is, by and large, not fun. It can be fun levelling up, you get to do actual story content missions, it's entertaining, there's often new stuff to see. Increasing rep, on the other hand, means repeating the same small set of mission over and over again, painstakingly gathering the resources necessary, waiting the 20 hours for your progress bar to creep a hairline or two farther to the right.... It's tedious, and I only put up with it because I get Cool Stuff at the end of it all. Now you're saying the Cool Stuff is Cool Stuff I Have To Give Up Other Cool Stuff For. To which my response tends in the general direction of "no thanks".
(As an aside, does anyone else feel that "Reputation" is a complete misnomer? You get a reputation by doing bold, remarkable, noteworthy deeds. You get Reputation by completing lots of deposits of small amounts of resources into the black hole of the Reputation system. Destroying all ten Unimatrix ships and being hailed as the Defender of half the sectors in the game gets me zip in Reputation terms... I have a Reputation, though, for the number of Large Hyposprays I've donated to the cause. Go figure.)
Good point... hard to argue... just make it all harder and if people fail they fail. Honestly I would have no issue with that myself. I think the wine from the players though would be just as loud as the wine on this change... so they are screwed either way. lol
Like the thinking though and its a good point. Covers off the pve side of things... would still be an issue in PvP though... which is something I care about. I know its not the main reason they are making this change... but it does really have a great PvP upside.
I think pvp can be pretty simple to fix if they were to put a bit of effort into that as well and once again look to other mmo's for a guide.
Add in gear that would be useful for pvp with a pvp stat. Make a basic set that would allow you to compete with others for free. Add in pvp currency and use it to allow those that take part in that part of the game to upgrade as need be.
Making how things work on players vs on npcs should be different as well. They have shown they can do it. Just expand apon it and make it more balanced. A good solution would allow them to change and tweak things in one area without causing problems in a different area.
I am well aware of Cryptic's history and do not have much faith in these things happening. The thing is tho, they should and need to happen for STO to be more then it is.
Why dont they just take the game down altogether to make whiny people like you happy then huh? It is people like you that is ultimately going to kill the game in the end. So, please, keep cryin. Mooron
Yes you must be right clearly, I am the moron after all.
In short, what is my incentive to engage with Undine rep at all?
The same incentive as before.
1- The gear.
2- Other miscellaneous unlocks like DOFFs and BOFFs and costumes.
3- The new rep grind might have a new passive that you want more than the others. A good example is I have a character that's maxxed on Borg rep. But he sees the Nukara T4 rep powers and wants them far more. Well now there's incentive to go get those instead. So use your imagination a bit here and think about how 6 months from now they offer a new Gamesters of Triskellion rep and at T4 it's a BETTER power. LIke maybe 7% crit and + DMG to Anti Protons. All wrapped up in one sweet little package. And you use Antiprotons. Wow. INCENTIVE ACTIVATED.
That's how this will work. You'll be juggling choices, but they're going to offer new choices that might work better for player x, but not player y.
And still, there will be gear. Which has always been a big incentive for all of the reps. And is being wilfully ignored by the majority of this thread. Even though I swear just yesterday there was a HUGE argument about changes being made to the Borg 2 pc. Set bonus.
Bear in mind that rep grinding is, by and large, not fun.
Which is why two blogs ago, they addressed that issue and are making changes to make the grind easier. They're giving out more marks to make it easier to do less missions and get further along each day. They're changing all the gear to Mk XII and opening it up throughout the entire rep climb instead of just getting to T5. They're even popping store rewards as part of the daily reward for either use if you're new or added vendor trash if you're a vet. They're making all the reps work like the current Dyson rep.
(As an aside, does anyone else feel that "Reputation" is a complete misnomer?
More a gaming term than anything else so don't take it so literally.
Yes you must be right clearly, I am the moron after all.
Yes, you are. I mean, you been on here all day and night...is this all you do? Dont you have a life? Or does your life revolve around whining? Moan about the game til they nerf things?
They nerfed our reps now you want them to nerf consoles too. What else do you want them to nerf? You just dont like hearing the truth from someone else, thats why you get all defensive and say things like you just did above. Take a good hard look at yourself whiner. I been reading your posts. You are one of the whiners. End of story. Thanks for wrecking the game mooron
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Yes, you are. I mean, you been on here all day and night...is this all you do? Dont you have a life? Or does your life revolve around whining? Moan about the game til they nerf things?
They nerfed our reps now you want them to nerf consoles too. What else do you want them to nerf? You just dont like hearing the truth from someone else, thats why you get all defensive and say things like you just did above. Take a good hard look at yourself whiner. I been reading your posts. You are one of the whiners. End of story. Thanks for wrecking the game mooron
I might disagree with him on the issue of the rep system changes, but what he chooses to do with his forum time is his business, not yours.
You aren't telling the truth, you're attacking him based on the fact he's using the forums for its intended use and is calling you out on blatant bs.
Instead of backing up your arguments, you're attacking his character to try to discredit him.
I think pvp can be pretty simple to fix if they were to put a bit of effort into that as well and once again look to other mmo's for a guide.
Add in gear that would be useful for pvp with a pvp stat. Make a basic set that would allow you to compete with others for free. Add in pvp currency and use it to allow those that take part in that part of the game to upgrade as need be.
Making how things work on players vs on npcs should be different as well. They have shown they can do it. Just expand apon it and make it more balanced. A good solution would allow them to change and tweak things in one area without causing problems in a different area.
I am well aware of Cryptic's history and do not have much faith in these things happening. The thing is tho, they should and need to happen for STO to be more then it is.
PvP gears have FAILED hard in every MMO that have ever attempted them. Pretty much any MMO left with PvP gear has been back tracking on it for the last 2 years.
I agree some things could be made to work in different ways. Cryptic has always been of the mind that they want everything identical. So I don't think they are really going to budge there unless there are some massive staffing changes over there.
The main issue with PvP gear is the same issue we have right now with REP. Players that have have an advantage over those that don't. Now I know you can argue that skill is more important and it is. I have no issues if I fly a toon that isn't a complete rep toon or doesn't have X Y OR Z bit of gear. Skill does trump play... but it doesn't trump perception. PvP gear leads to massive perception issues... like we have with rep right now. New players (and some just plain bad ones lol) Will blame the gear instead of there own play... some may be true issues. (I have played games like Rift where there first incarnation of PvP gear was a joke where having it gave you pretty much free kills on anyone that didn't even if you where the worst player in the world or eating a sandwich at the time).
The perception though is the real issue... new players get told things like
" you have to Get X Y and Z before you will really win."
" you have to put in your dues man... take your lumps when you get to 100 games played you can get tier X or Y and then you can compete"
They here those types of things and they get turned off and they either don't even try or they leave before they really have a chance to learn and love the game as it is.
Your right that there are other ways to fix PvP... but one MAJOR issue since rep started was the rep itself. Every player has felt the need to get every rep... and to be honest they are very powerful on there own and do make a difference. It isn't just a perception issue like in some games. Having a couple free dmg consoles and a couple free mods on your weapons really does make you more lethal in PvP... and having Free Neut class armors and things like on hit shield heals does make you a lot more tanky as well.
This change does make PvP more attractive to new players... but also returning ones. PvP in STO is famous for having people play and then leave for months on end and then return then leave then return. BY adding this new mechanic they make it much easier for people to return ready to play... which is very good for PvP. Honestly its also good for PvE I believe. I have friends that don't just PvP believe it or not... the rep grind is one reason why some of those people have not returned either. I know the feeling I know when I logged into my last round of alts I had to do it was painful, looking and seeing one rep done and 3 more not started.
I think this change with that in mind is something Cryptic needs to do... they need to change the perception in the minds of players that are on "hiatus" and new ones coming in that get to hear the Oh my what an Asian grindcore game that is when they get here.
I'm not sure it's so much that they do things at random... as they tend to take an iterative approach to the game.
No system is ever "done" and all content is open to being revised as they learn new techniques and identify new things that players want or need.
The reality is, this is still very much an evolving game. Things that seemed to work when they were first implemented have had their flaws exposed and their rationales challenged by changes in direction.
Same thing here.
I'm exceedingly happy that they're going to ditch the commodities for Reputation projects and I'm ecstatic that they're streamlining the Rep gear and giving away free stuff that helps complete the content that gives us the marks to progress. I and my alts are deliriously overjoyed that Sponsorship stays.
I do think that they need to put a little more thought into how these passives are going to combine and I'm afraid that 4/4/4 is too limiting if the Rep system grows anymore. On the other hand, going with 4/4/4 means they can raise those limits later if there's good justification. They don't like putting the genie back into the bottle, so I can see why they wouldn't go with 8/8/4 out of the gate.
The fact that Trait Sets are part of the design goal here, and that you can change your "loadout" for free makes me a little more receptive to this plan.
I recall a comment by DeAngelo that the Dyson Rep progression was a little faster than they had intended. Well, this slot system means they can now pull out all the stops. It doesn't matter as much that someone's figured out how to blow through the progression. They still hit a cap and have to choose what to slot and what not to slot.
Mind you, I'm not completely happy with this. It still feels like something's being taken away. But if they stick to what Arch has explained here in this thread, I think I can live with it and six months from now I won't care.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Yes, you are. I mean, you been on here all day and night...is this all you do? Dont you have a life? Or does your life revolve around whining? Moan about the game til they nerf things?
They nerfed our reps now you want them to nerf consoles too. What else do you want them to nerf? You just dont like hearing the truth from someone else, thats why you get all defensive and say things like you just did above. Take a good hard look at yourself whiner. I been reading your posts. You are one of the whiners. End of story. Thanks for wrecking the game mooron
I have 3 monitors going at the moment... I have my Ableton open on one... my VST board open on another... and my web browswer and notepad open on this one. I've done a good 16 hours of work today thanks... promised someone something and drug my feet on it. Will have it done though... the forum PvP has been a nice distraction though. lol
Your welcome though btw. Anything I can do to wreak STO... mainly just for you though.
I have 3 monitors going at the moment... I have my Ableton open on one... my VST board open on another... and my web browswer and notepad open on this one. I've done a good 16 hours of work today thanks... promised someone something and drug my feet on it. Will have it done though... the forum PvP has been a nice distraction though. lol
Your welcome though btw. Anything I can do to wreak STO... mainly just for you though.
Yeah, get a life loser.
Hey i dont mind you cry babies that cant hack the pace and cant play sto for peanuts wrecking the game, cause there will be a day where someone else will wreck the game for you with their whining......ahhhhh karma has its ways lol
Besides, ive already stated what my intentions are going to be. But, its ok cry baby, we all know now you cant play sto, so you gotta have a temper tantrum to get devs to change things to suit your handicap:P
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Long term players being dramatically more powerful than new players isn't a problem... when you have and can supply content that keeps those out-and-ahead players segregated completely from lower level players.
Level 50 comes on fast in STO, and y'know what? If they kept up their current expansion of power creep via rep passives, you'd probably have a ship that, on passives alone, was literally twice as powerful as newly minted level 50 ship... running the same damned content as the newly minted level 50.
This is a huge problem when it comes to content development, as the median, that is the balance point where a level 50 newbie and lvl 50 god moder can both play the same content is, essentially, non-existant. The newbies would, mostly, be unable to complete content. Those with hyper optimized builds and excellent team work would be able to get there eventually, maybe, the rest would probably flip Cryptic the bird and wander off to something more enticing. At the other end of the spectrum, the repped up, super-powered players would occaisionally have to roll their head around and maybe change the direction of their drool channel when destroying everything in their path with no risk of failure.
Such a design creates a paradigm that will, eventually, become unenjoyable, unappealing, and untenable to all parties. These changes to the way powers work opens wide the doors for Cryptic to continue adding new gear and reputation to allow more mixing and matching while putting in place fairly solid guidelines and limits for how powerful a player can be at any given time which allows them to design content that can actually challenge repped up players while still being, albeit with some difficulty, within the reach of players who are not repped up. It also has the wondrous side effect of meaning hitting tier two in all rep systems giving you 8 traits to mix and match each for space and ground, putting new players much closer to veteran players, mechanically speaking, in a much shorter amount of time.
i see no problem with that for that fact that the people that have the passives have worked for that... they invested time and resources for these
I see no reason why a new player should be equal to old players... every new player has the chance to get to exactly the same point where old players are today
All they have to do is to invest a bit time into the game.... actually that should be in Cryptics interest... or not?
It's a game, not a chore. Games are meant to be enjoyed.
If it would be just a game, then it would be game over. And restart. Obviously it's not just that. People need to quit comin up with these kind of inane allegories. It's not a salad, its not cheese, its an online game that doesnt end. If you don't like playing it because its a chore, then perhaps you need a different kind of hobby.
Mind you, I'm not completely happy with this. It still feels like something's being taken away. But if they stick to what Arch has explained here in this thread, I think I can live with it and six months from now I won't care.
Yep I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I think they do make a lot of small changes and for the most art I like where they go with things. I think not having a limit on rep from the start was short sighted.. I am still glad they are recognizing the issue and doing something. The point on 4 being to low... it could be and 6 might be a nice in between. To be honest though even if they go to 8 I would see it as a good step. At least new reps wouldn't be adding to the current level of creep on rep at least.
To justify some of what I said about some of there choices being random though... one example.
At one point Aux To battary was on the same global as Emergency power to X.
That was the way it worked when they set the numbers on the Tech doffs (-10% all skill cool downs).
Honestly that was balanced... the way the global worked having 2 copies of aux to bat was a bad build option as it meant you couldn't use any EPTx skills. It worked well though you could run one EPTx and one copy of Aux to bat... and everything was happy you had your ETPx reduced almost to global so it was like having 2 copies and you got one kick at up to -30% skill reduction from your tech doffs. Well balanced made aux to bat a real option with out making it the obvious only option.
The random part is... for what ever reason Bort decided to pretty much out of the blue move A2B OFF that global and move it onto the A2D global instead.
That instantly allowed people to load 2 EPTx... as well as 2 copies of A2B... ALL operating at global and people basicly getting one -30% to all skills and 20s later getting another -30s all skills.
It was frankly a TERRIBLE decision. It still has not been corrected... and now if they are going to fix it... the thread for that change will go on 3x longer then this one.
Is it a nerf when they take away 8 nickels and give you 4 dimes?
I see it more like a restaurant who has been pitching the idea that they are making the most awesome salad in town.
With nice big advertisements on how fresh their produce is and all the different kinds of cheeses and dressings they have.
Only now they realize that there are so many people that eat salad, that they can't afford the upkeep for all those cherry tomatoes and gourmet cheeses they ship in.
Instead of wisely planning ahead, they now put on the menu that your salad is only limited to four items, but you get more of each item to fill your salad bowl.
"But I liked all the various things in your salad before."
"Yeah, but now we give you more of each and allow you to pick which ones you want."
"Well, the iceberg lettuce is good... so is the cheese, vinegrette dressing, and black olives."
"Great, and because you have been such a loyal customer, we're going to fill your salad bowl to the top with iceberg lettuce, cheese, black olives, and drown it all in way more dressing than you had before."
"That's disgusting. I also really liked your cherry tomatoes, your radishes..."
"Yeah, but new customers will also get the same 4 choices."
"I don't care about those other customers. I came here because you had really good salad. Now you're just giving me half the salad ingredients I had before, but just giving me more of it. What about the people who order salad with cherry tomatoes?"
"Oh, we just fill 1/4th of their bowl with cherry tomatoes now."
It IS a HUGE HUGE blow to science captains who finally at long last had a build that allowed us to use FAW in PVE without the need to have twenty heals taking up our science skills because we drew more threat than the escorts. That's who it hurst the most. And their terrible Doffs as replacements and consoles that are supposed to help with threat don't make up for it, they just don't work as well. Unless they change the amount of threat is reduced on the -th consoles from the embassy and make doffs like Isis have a higher than 1% chance of placating it will completely break the placate/sensor build I started using.
They've screwed the pooch on this one in PVE. Once again science captains have to take a hit because someone in PVP whined that something was too powerful and so they broke it rather than give the PVE people something to replace it with.
PvP gears have FAILED hard in every MMO that have ever attempted them. Pretty much any MMO left with PvP gear has been back tracking on it for the last 2 years.
I agree some things could be made to work in different ways. Cryptic has always been of the mind that they want everything identical. So I don't think they are really going to budge there unless there are some massive staffing changes over there.
The main issue with PvP gear is the same issue we have right now with REP. Players that have have an advantage over those that don't. Now I know you can argue that skill is more important and it is. I have no issues if I fly a toon that isn't a complete rep toon or doesn't have X Y OR Z bit of gear. Skill does trump play... but it doesn't trump perception. PvP gear leads to massive perception issues... like we have with rep right now. New players (and some just plain bad ones lol) Will blame the gear instead of there own play... some may be true issues. (I have played games like Rift where there first incarnation of PvP gear was a joke where having it gave you pretty much free kills on anyone that didn't even if you where the worst player in the world or eating a sandwich at the time).
The perception though is the real issue... new players get told things like
" you have to Get X Y and Z before you will really win."
" you have to put in your dues man... take your lumps when you get to 100 games played you can get tier X or Y and then you can compete"
They here those types of things and they get turned off and they either don't even try or they leave before they really have a chance to learn and love the game as it is.
Your right that there are other ways to fix PvP... but one MAJOR issue since rep started was the rep itself. Every player has felt the need to get every rep... and to be honest they are very powerful on there own and do make a difference. It isn't just a perception issue like in some games. Having a couple free dmg consoles and a couple free mods on your weapons really does make you more lethal in PvP... and having Free Neut class armors and things like on hit shield heals does make you a lot more tanky as well.
This change does make PvP more attractive to new players... but also returning ones. PvP in STO is famous for having people play and then leave for months on end and then return then leave then return. BY adding this new mechanic they make it much easier for people to return ready to play... which is very good for PvP. Honestly its also good for PvE I believe. I have friends that don't just PvP believe it or not... the rep grind is one reason why some of those people have not returned either. I know the feeling I know when I logged into my last round of alts I had to do it was painful, looking and seeing one rep done and 3 more not started.
I think this change with that in mind is something Cryptic needs to do... they need to change the perception in the minds of players that are on "hiatus" and new ones coming in that get to hear the Oh my what an Asian grindcore game that is when they get here.
I have not seen a game with the passive rep rewards such as STO has. The best solution for pvp could be to just have no rep powers and no rep passives. Then further limit pvp to fleet gear. That would place everyone on a much more lvl playing field and limit the need to grind to getting fleet marks and dil for the fleet gear needed.
With that type of solution you could then provide fleet marks as a reward for doing pvp to help people along that are just wanting to pvp.
It is logical that with ANY game, the more time you invest in playing, the better you get, the easier it becomes. But, not with STO thanks to the whiners.
It now defeats the purpose of bein a vet
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
No system is ever "done" and all content is open to being revised as they learn new techniques and identify new things that players want or need.
The reality is, this is still very much an evolving game. Things that seemed to work when they were first implemented have had their flaws exposed and their rationales challenged by changes in direction.
As a moderator of the STO forums, I won't insult your intelligence about the reality that the reputation system was one of the most common criticisms that players have about the game itself.
No, the game isn't ever really done. And no, nothing is sacred when there are flaws exposed and rationales challenged.
But to say these flaws have just recently been exposed is dishonest.
They knew reputation systems would become business as usual as we move season to season.
They knew the passives and active powers would bring captains above and beyond the level cap (sidegrades or alternate advancement). They knew then this would not be infinitely scalable.
To say they would have no idea this would happen in the earliest design discussions regarding the reputation system is... dishonest. This wasn't a flaw recently exposed. This was a known problem we would encounter and it was ignored at the time.
Then they made the problem worse with each subsequent rep system. Despite knowing they were making it worse season by season.
And that's worth criticising. That's worth being outraged over. Because they knew and instead of fixing the problem then, or fixing it earlier than now is insulting.
Comments
You do what every other mmo has done, You teach players that failing is ok. You teach players that it's not a great idea to take undergeared toons to a instance before your ready. In short you have tiers and you have progression. You have content that is a challenge and you have content that you can and you will fail on.
The unspoken thing in this all is the simple truth that you do not need the reps, you do not need gear to be able to do all end game content in this game right now. As I said, the reps are the end game. You are doing the reps to unlock more power for your toon to do what?
For STO to have lasting and long value it should be something that aspires players to work with each other and do better. At both those things it is failing. The devs are afraid to challenge players, they are afraid to allow players to fail. Failure is not the most terrible thing to happen in a mmo, you learn, you adept, you play better and you overcome.
The rep systems should be in place to help players overcome content. Not as the place to grind into for ever more power that serves no purpose.
Please test the holy phaser out of this on Tribble!!
That aside, it's introducing yet another management headache into the game.
I mean, I get what you're saying about power creep. Really, I do, but I can't see my way clear to liking this change.
That would mean leaving the difficulty level exactly where it is which is a problem. The fact that STFS are so easy with all the creep... is why we have stupid things like 60s briefings... and new missions are only timer based. They will never ever again give us a mission that is complete when everything is dead... because power creep makes those missions a joke and the obvious quick reward option. Right now that mission is infected ... its the standard quick reward everyone does because yes even a team with 3k DPS each can get it done in 7 or 8 min.
In order for new content to be challanging it would have to challange the majority of full rep people that don't have an issue hitting 20k dps. Which means adding a limit of only 3-4k. They now have to make that mission doable and the optional achievable with only 3-4k for all 5 members on a team. (or they frustrate people... see Hive) That means they would have to set that bar a lot higher to make it mean anything at all. Which brings me back to the issue with the DPS counter idea... Sci and Engi are going to be even more pushed into pure DPS builds and ships.
It's stated right there in the dev blog about this change and commented on at least twice by the dev that wrote the blog.
They are. They covered that in this blog. They're making all the reps as easy to do as Dyson Rep. They're making all the gear only Mk XII. They're opening up the gear like they do on Dyson so it's not exclusive to T5 of each rep. They're making marks easier to obtain and you get more of them per day. This is all old news announced two blogs ago.
Basically, they're trying to make the game more idiot-friendly. It's not about any power-creep. It's about whiners goin where they should be prepared to take a fall thinking that they absolutely should not. BECAUSE THEY'RE 50 and it makes sense to them. They don't want to work for it, they don't want to wait, THEY WANT IT AND THEY WANT IT NOW. At the expense of those who did.
Good point... hard to argue... just make it all harder and if people fail they fail. Honestly I would have no issue with that myself. I think the wine from the players though would be just as loud as the wine on this change... so they are screwed either way.
Like the thinking though and its a good point. Covers off the pve side of things... would still be an issue in PvP though... which is something I care about. I know its not the main reason they are making this change... but it does really have a great PvP upside.
I see it more like a restaurant who has been pitching the idea that they are making the most awesome salad in town.
With nice big advertisements on how fresh their produce is and all the different kinds of cheeses and dressings they have.
Only now they realize that there are so many people that eat salad, that they can't afford the upkeep for all those cherry tomatoes and gourmet cheeses they ship in.
Instead of wisely planning ahead, they now put on the menu that your salad is only limited to four items, but you get more of each item to fill your salad bowl.
"But I liked all the various things in your salad before."
"Yeah, but now we give you more of each and allow you to pick which ones you want."
"Well, the iceberg lettuce is good... so is the cheese, vinegrette dressing, and black olives."
"Great, and because you have been such a loyal customer, we're going to fill your salad bowl to the top with iceberg lettuce, cheese, black olives, and drown it all in way more dressing than you had before."
"That's disgusting. I also really liked your cherry tomatoes, your radishes..."
"Yeah, but new customers will also get the same 4 choices."
"I don't care about those other customers. I came here because you had really good salad. Now you're just giving me half the salad ingredients I had before, but just giving me more of it. What about the people who order salad with cherry tomatoes?"
"Oh, we just fill 1/4th of their bowl with cherry tomatoes now."
Why dont they just take the game down altogether to make whiny people like you happy then huh? It is people like you that is ultimately going to kill the game in the end. So, please, keep cryin. Mooron
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Let's say that I winnow down my list of currently available rep powers to the four space and four ground that I feel I absolutely can't live without (yes, yes, free instant respecs between missions, I know, I know - I also know that I can't be doing with all that faff).
So I've got my four abilities for, say, ground. Then along comes Undine rep, and its new choices in that department. What is my incentive to replace "Stuff I've Decided I Can't Live Without" with new and untried abilities?
In short, what is my incentive to engage with Undine rep at all?
Bear in mind that rep grinding is, by and large, not fun. It can be fun levelling up, you get to do actual story content missions, it's entertaining, there's often new stuff to see. Increasing rep, on the other hand, means repeating the same small set of mission over and over again, painstakingly gathering the resources necessary, waiting the 20 hours for your progress bar to creep a hairline or two farther to the right.... It's tedious, and I only put up with it because I get Cool Stuff at the end of it all. Now you're saying the Cool Stuff is Cool Stuff I Have To Give Up Other Cool Stuff For. To which my response tends in the general direction of "no thanks".
(As an aside, does anyone else feel that "Reputation" is a complete misnomer? You get a reputation by doing bold, remarkable, noteworthy deeds. You get Reputation by completing lots of deposits of small amounts of resources into the black hole of the Reputation system. Destroying all ten Unimatrix ships and being hailed as the Defender of half the sectors in the game gets me zip in Reputation terms... I have a Reputation, though, for the number of Large Hyposprays I've donated to the cause. Go figure.)
I think pvp can be pretty simple to fix if they were to put a bit of effort into that as well and once again look to other mmo's for a guide.
Add in gear that would be useful for pvp with a pvp stat. Make a basic set that would allow you to compete with others for free. Add in pvp currency and use it to allow those that take part in that part of the game to upgrade as need be.
Making how things work on players vs on npcs should be different as well. They have shown they can do it. Just expand apon it and make it more balanced. A good solution would allow them to change and tweak things in one area without causing problems in a different area.
I am well aware of Cryptic's history and do not have much faith in these things happening. The thing is tho, they should and need to happen for STO to be more then it is.
Yes you must be right clearly, I am the moron after all.
The same incentive as before.
1- The gear.
2- Other miscellaneous unlocks like DOFFs and BOFFs and costumes.
3- The new rep grind might have a new passive that you want more than the others. A good example is I have a character that's maxxed on Borg rep. But he sees the Nukara T4 rep powers and wants them far more. Well now there's incentive to go get those instead. So use your imagination a bit here and think about how 6 months from now they offer a new Gamesters of Triskellion rep and at T4 it's a BETTER power. LIke maybe 7% crit and + DMG to Anti Protons. All wrapped up in one sweet little package. And you use Antiprotons. Wow. INCENTIVE ACTIVATED.
That's how this will work. You'll be juggling choices, but they're going to offer new choices that might work better for player x, but not player y.
And still, there will be gear. Which has always been a big incentive for all of the reps. And is being wilfully ignored by the majority of this thread. Even though I swear just yesterday there was a HUGE argument about changes being made to the Borg 2 pc. Set bonus.
Which is why two blogs ago, they addressed that issue and are making changes to make the grind easier. They're giving out more marks to make it easier to do less missions and get further along each day. They're changing all the gear to Mk XII and opening it up throughout the entire rep climb instead of just getting to T5. They're even popping store rewards as part of the daily reward for either use if you're new or added vendor trash if you're a vet. They're making all the reps work like the current Dyson rep.
More a gaming term than anything else so don't take it so literally.
Yes, you are. I mean, you been on here all day and night...is this all you do? Dont you have a life? Or does your life revolve around whining? Moan about the game til they nerf things?
They nerfed our reps now you want them to nerf consoles too. What else do you want them to nerf? You just dont like hearing the truth from someone else, thats why you get all defensive and say things like you just did above. Take a good hard look at yourself whiner. I been reading your posts. You are one of the whiners. End of story. Thanks for wrecking the game mooron
I might disagree with him on the issue of the rep system changes, but what he chooses to do with his forum time is his business, not yours.
You aren't telling the truth, you're attacking him based on the fact he's using the forums for its intended use and is calling you out on blatant bs.
Instead of backing up your arguments, you're attacking his character to try to discredit him.
PvP gears have FAILED hard in every MMO that have ever attempted them. Pretty much any MMO left with PvP gear has been back tracking on it for the last 2 years.
I agree some things could be made to work in different ways. Cryptic has always been of the mind that they want everything identical. So I don't think they are really going to budge there unless there are some massive staffing changes over there.
The main issue with PvP gear is the same issue we have right now with REP. Players that have have an advantage over those that don't. Now I know you can argue that skill is more important and it is. I have no issues if I fly a toon that isn't a complete rep toon or doesn't have X Y OR Z bit of gear. Skill does trump play... but it doesn't trump perception. PvP gear leads to massive perception issues... like we have with rep right now. New players (and some just plain bad ones lol) Will blame the gear instead of there own play... some may be true issues. (I have played games like Rift where there first incarnation of PvP gear was a joke where having it gave you pretty much free kills on anyone that didn't even if you where the worst player in the world or eating a sandwich at the time).
The perception though is the real issue... new players get told things like
" you have to Get X Y and Z before you will really win."
" you have to put in your dues man... take your lumps when you get to 100 games played you can get tier X or Y and then you can compete"
They here those types of things and they get turned off and they either don't even try or they leave before they really have a chance to learn and love the game as it is.
Your right that there are other ways to fix PvP... but one MAJOR issue since rep started was the rep itself. Every player has felt the need to get every rep... and to be honest they are very powerful on there own and do make a difference. It isn't just a perception issue like in some games. Having a couple free dmg consoles and a couple free mods on your weapons really does make you more lethal in PvP... and having Free Neut class armors and things like on hit shield heals does make you a lot more tanky as well.
This change does make PvP more attractive to new players... but also returning ones. PvP in STO is famous for having people play and then leave for months on end and then return then leave then return. BY adding this new mechanic they make it much easier for people to return ready to play... which is very good for PvP. Honestly its also good for PvE I believe. I have friends that don't just PvP believe it or not... the rep grind is one reason why some of those people have not returned either. I know the feeling I know when I logged into my last round of alts I had to do it was painful, looking and seeing one rep done and 3 more not started.
I think this change with that in mind is something Cryptic needs to do... they need to change the perception in the minds of players that are on "hiatus" and new ones coming in that get to hear the Oh my what an Asian grindcore game that is when they get here.
I'm not sure it's so much that they do things at random... as they tend to take an iterative approach to the game.
No system is ever "done" and all content is open to being revised as they learn new techniques and identify new things that players want or need.
The reality is, this is still very much an evolving game. Things that seemed to work when they were first implemented have had their flaws exposed and their rationales challenged by changes in direction.
Same thing here.
I'm exceedingly happy that they're going to ditch the commodities for Reputation projects and I'm ecstatic that they're streamlining the Rep gear and giving away free stuff that helps complete the content that gives us the marks to progress. I and my alts are deliriously overjoyed that Sponsorship stays.
I do think that they need to put a little more thought into how these passives are going to combine and I'm afraid that 4/4/4 is too limiting if the Rep system grows anymore. On the other hand, going with 4/4/4 means they can raise those limits later if there's good justification. They don't like putting the genie back into the bottle, so I can see why they wouldn't go with 8/8/4 out of the gate.
The fact that Trait Sets are part of the design goal here, and that you can change your "loadout" for free makes me a little more receptive to this plan.
I recall a comment by DeAngelo that the Dyson Rep progression was a little faster than they had intended. Well, this slot system means they can now pull out all the stops. It doesn't matter as much that someone's figured out how to blow through the progression. They still hit a cap and have to choose what to slot and what not to slot.
Mind you, I'm not completely happy with this. It still feels like something's being taken away. But if they stick to what Arch has explained here in this thread, I think I can live with it and six months from now I won't care.
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I have 3 monitors going at the moment... I have my Ableton open on one... my VST board open on another... and my web browswer and notepad open on this one. I've done a good 16 hours of work today thanks... promised someone something and drug my feet on it. Will have it done though... the forum PvP has been a nice distraction though. lol
Your welcome though btw. Anything I can do to wreak STO... mainly just for you though.
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
im with you on that. i wont be doin the reps no more because now it is worthless and time wasting
Yeah, get a life loser.
Hey i dont mind you cry babies that cant hack the pace and cant play sto for peanuts wrecking the game, cause there will be a day where someone else will wreck the game for you with their whining......ahhhhh karma has its ways lol
Besides, ive already stated what my intentions are going to be. But, its ok cry baby, we all know now you cant play sto, so you gotta have a temper tantrum to get devs to change things to suit your handicap:P
i see no problem with that for that fact that the people that have the passives have worked for that... they invested time and resources for these
I see no reason why a new player should be equal to old players... every new player has the chance to get to exactly the same point where old players are today
All they have to do is to invest a bit time into the game.... actually that should be in Cryptics interest... or not?
If it would be just a game, then it would be game over. And restart. Obviously it's not just that. People need to quit comin up with these kind of inane allegories. It's not a salad, its not cheese, its an online game that doesnt end. If you don't like playing it because its a chore, then perhaps you need a different kind of hobby.
Yep I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I think they do make a lot of small changes and for the most art I like where they go with things. I think not having a limit on rep from the start was short sighted.. I am still glad they are recognizing the issue and doing something. The point on 4 being to low... it could be and 6 might be a nice in between. To be honest though even if they go to 8 I would see it as a good step. At least new reps wouldn't be adding to the current level of creep on rep at least.
To justify some of what I said about some of there choices being random though... one example.
At one point Aux To battary was on the same global as Emergency power to X.
That was the way it worked when they set the numbers on the Tech doffs (-10% all skill cool downs).
Honestly that was balanced... the way the global worked having 2 copies of aux to bat was a bad build option as it meant you couldn't use any EPTx skills. It worked well though you could run one EPTx and one copy of Aux to bat... and everything was happy you had your ETPx reduced almost to global so it was like having 2 copies and you got one kick at up to -30% skill reduction from your tech doffs. Well balanced made aux to bat a real option with out making it the obvious only option.
The random part is... for what ever reason Bort decided to pretty much out of the blue move A2B OFF that global and move it onto the A2D global instead.
That instantly allowed people to load 2 EPTx... as well as 2 copies of A2B... ALL operating at global and people basicly getting one -30% to all skills and 20s later getting another -30s all skills.
It was frankly a TERRIBLE decision. It still has not been corrected... and now if they are going to fix it... the thread for that change will go on 3x longer then this one.
It IS a HUGE HUGE blow to science captains who finally at long last had a build that allowed us to use FAW in PVE without the need to have twenty heals taking up our science skills because we drew more threat than the escorts. That's who it hurst the most. And their terrible Doffs as replacements and consoles that are supposed to help with threat don't make up for it, they just don't work as well. Unless they change the amount of threat is reduced on the -th consoles from the embassy and make doffs like Isis have a higher than 1% chance of placating it will completely break the placate/sensor build I started using.
They've screwed the pooch on this one in PVE. Once again science captains have to take a hit because someone in PVP whined that something was too powerful and so they broke it rather than give the PVE people something to replace it with.
I have not seen a game with the passive rep rewards such as STO has. The best solution for pvp could be to just have no rep powers and no rep passives. Then further limit pvp to fleet gear. That would place everyone on a much more lvl playing field and limit the need to grind to getting fleet marks and dil for the fleet gear needed.
With that type of solution you could then provide fleet marks as a reward for doing pvp to help people along that are just wanting to pvp.
It now defeats the purpose of bein a vet
As a moderator of the STO forums, I won't insult your intelligence about the reality that the reputation system was one of the most common criticisms that players have about the game itself.
No, the game isn't ever really done. And no, nothing is sacred when there are flaws exposed and rationales challenged.
But to say these flaws have just recently been exposed is dishonest.
They knew reputation systems would become business as usual as we move season to season.
They knew the passives and active powers would bring captains above and beyond the level cap (sidegrades or alternate advancement). They knew then this would not be infinitely scalable.
To say they would have no idea this would happen in the earliest design discussions regarding the reputation system is... dishonest. This wasn't a flaw recently exposed. This was a known problem we would encounter and it was ignored at the time.
Then they made the problem worse with each subsequent rep system. Despite knowing they were making it worse season by season.
And that's worth criticising. That's worth being outraged over. Because they knew and instead of fixing the problem then, or fixing it earlier than now is insulting.