Again, where is your proof that they are "clearly losing"?
The only indications are the visual effects of the fleet fighting the Cube, and the subspace radio transmissions received by the Enterprise before they joined the fight. The latter is inconclusive, since they could be taking losses in the initial time of the assault, but the later footage of the actual battle shows a great many Starfleet ships still intact, unhampered by tractor beams, and still moving and firing as normal. See the Akira, Nebula, Steamrunner, etc etc ships that were undamaged and launched weapons when Picard gave the order. Those ships didn't magically regenerate, and there are a great deal of undamaged ships. Starfleet hadn't lost the battle prior to, or during, Picard's intervention.
That is what I saw on screen; Picard's knowledge overcoming Borg adaptation, which the Borg could not counter to. My point is proven.
Screenplays are apocryphal at best, and novelizations are completely non-canon. The latter does not belong in this discussion.
You seem to be forgetting that the Borg ship was pretty much right at Earth and not stopping despite the large Starfleet fleet flying around it. Since their goal was to stop the Borg from getting to Earth, they were not doing a very good job. Without Picard finding that weakness, the Borg would have made it to Earth and started to assault the planet as well as the fleet.
You seem to be forgetting that the Borg ship was pretty much right at Earth and not stopping despite the large Starfleet fleet flying around it. Since their goal was to stop the Borg from getting to Earth, they were not doing a very good job. Without Picard finding that weakness, the Borg would have made it to Earth and started to assault the planet as well as the fleet.
That's fine, the Borg can go ahead and assault the planet, much in the same way the Breen launched a surprise attack against a little-defended Earth in the latter days of the Dominion War. Starfleet won that battle by repelling the Breen. If a fleet of Breen warships couldn't completely decimate the over 500 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface and claim victory, one ship wouldn't be able to pull it off either.
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That's fine, the Borg can go ahead and assault the planet, much in the same way the Breen launched a surprise attack against a little-defended Earth in the latter days of the Dominion War. Starfleet won that battle by repelling the Breen. If a fleet of Breen warships couldn't completely decimate the over 500 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface and claim victory, one ship wouldn't be able to pull it off either.
Trying to compare the Borg to the Breen is kind of silly. They are on completely different class levels. Breen ships are roughly equal to a Federation ship, a Borg cube is stronger than a Federation fleet (or at least can take a beating from a Federation fleet).
Plus the Borg and the Breen had different goals. The Breen was a hit and run raid, the Borg was an invasion.
Now did the Federation do better against the First Contact cube than they did against the Wolf 359 cube? Yes. But without someone working past Borg defenses (either by putting them to sleep or by figuring out a weak point that didn't seem like one), Earth would have been hit with an invasion force.
The sad thing is that the Borg were never meant to be a villian to fight. But Star Trek changed due to the assumption the audience are morons and need everything dumbed down into easy to chew bits.
The original Borg we see in BobW are really more of a story telling element than an actual entity to fight. The Borg were the ultimate hostile element of the unknown. A leader- home- and strctureless hive mind whose only purpose was to prevail and incorporate every part of technology in itself. That meant that technology, machines and firepower were not viable means to prevail through an Borg encounter. That's what TNG wanted to tell - force is not the answer. It required the human element to outwit the threat, not man built weapons to shoot them. "Assimilation" wasn't a thing either, the creation of Locutus was something unique. Borg actually bred in TNG.
Because the authors considered the audience stupid they needed to change the Borg entirely into ravaging space zombie-vampires with a unstatisfyable hunger for brains... erm assimilation, led by a sexy techno-dracullette. They were reduced to zombie cannon fodder, bascially and each and every game based on Star Trek used that theme, thus the idea was born that "we" could win by just shooting hard enough. This is one of the worst developments within the Star Trek franchise, in my opinion.
Just wanted to voice that, I realize that it doesn't help the thread in any way
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The sad thing is that the Borg were never meant to be a villian to fight. But Star Trek changed due to the assumption the audience are morons and need everything dumbed down into easy to chew bits.
The original Borg we see in BobW are really more of a story telling element than an actual entity to fight. The Borg were the ultimate hostile element of the unknown. A leader- home- and strctureless hive mind whose only purpose was to prevail and incorporate every part of technology in itself. That meant that technology, machines and firepower were not viable means to prevail through an Borg encounter. That's what TNG wanted to tell - force is not the answer. It required the human element to outwit the threat, not man built weapons to shoot them. "Assimilation" wasn't a thing either, the creation of Locutus was something unique. Borg actually bred in TNG.
Because the authors considered the audience stupid they needed to change the Borg entirely into ravaging space zombie-vampires with a unstatisfyable hunger for brains... erm assimilation, led by a sexy techno-dracullette. They were reduced to zombie cannon fodder, bascially and each and every game based on Star Trek used that theme, thus the idea was born that "we" could win by just shooting hard enough. This is one of the worst developments within the Star Trek franchise, in my opinion.
Just wanted to voice that, I realize that it doesn't help the thread in any way
Out of universe that is actually absolutely correct.
But in-universe they still designed stuff to try to fight back^^
I'm not as well versed as some with the whole Voyager show. but, I developed the notion that the Intrepid Class was a destroyer in the classic sense, Long-Range Fleet Escort that relies on it's fleet for support. The ship, as interpreted by game creators, has tactical ambitions; I could go on, but say, I am surprised to see it listed among the science ships, what's more that the T5 has a third science officer and not a universal or second tactical officer. It feels weird as a Science officers Science ship, when it seems like it would make a better escort. But it had to be classified as either Cruiser, Tactical, or Science and if it hadn't gone to sci-officers then they wouldn't have an iconic ship just the scraps or one-off's from the TV shows.
The truth is that while I disagree with the system that forces ships into a narrow definition, I also see that not every ship can be like Klingon Raiders, and multi-role ships like the Odyssey don't really work so well. Given our recent experience with so-called Galaxy Reboot (another ship that was wrongly transcribed) I don't think we can expect better.
Instead of this though let's all support a T5 Miranda. if there isn't a thread for it let's start one.
Update: I found a thread for this subject
For Disclosure purposes I run a sci-officer in a Nebula (Advanced Research Vessel?) though I keep a T5 LRSV close by in case I wake up in a mood.
Out of universe that is actually absolutely correct.
But in-universe they still designed stuff to try to fight back^^
Also true, although what I was tryiong to say is that these efforts should really be puny, futile attempts once a cube shows up. The best bet to defeat a cube would probably be to insert boarding parties in sensitive spots to sabotage the thing, developing gear to prevent "assimilation" but meh... tiny battlewarships of doom, alpha-striking cubes, yeah!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The original mission of Voyager was primarily exploration and research, and it was superbly equipped for both. For those occasions when a show of military force is unavoidable, the ship is equipped with an impressive array of defensive and offensive weapons.
Page 21:
WEAPONS AND DEFENSE
The mission of Voyager is exploration, science, and diplomacy. It is not a warship, nor is Starfleet a military organization in the 20th Century sense. Nevertheless, the galaxy is a big place, full of unknown -- and occasionally hostile -- life forms. For those times when Voyager must protect itself during the journey back to the Federation, the ship is fully equipped with both defensive and offensive weaponry. When provoked, Voyager is a formidable adversary.
Additionally, Janeway's staff is fully trained in cultural sociology, strategy and crisis analysis, and they have at their disposal a powerful array of information-gathering sensors and computers. They know that their skills in these areas are often more important in the successful resolution of a crisis than are advanced weaponry.
Which brings me to the current tangent in the discussion: the trouble with the Borg.
The Borg were introduced very early in ST:TNG. And I think it's no accident that, as some people will point out, the Borg superficially resemble the Federation: their technology is more advanced than most cultures they encounter; they assimilate any new culture or technology they come across; and they quickly adapt to new situations. The most frightening thing about the Borg is that they don't have any concept of individuality, or of the value of the diverse cultures they absorb. This serves to highlight what we're supposed to value about the Federation: its humanism, in its respect for individuals and for the autonomy of cultures. The Borg appear shortly after we've been introduced to the new Enterprise, and this is a reminder that our protagonists will overcome their challenges, not primarily through pew-pew-pew and technobabble, but through creativity and humanism.
So, the first trouble with the Borg is that they were finally defeated on at least three separate occasions -- and only the first of those follows from the original premise, in the plot arc concerning Hugh, who develops an individual identity and who reintroduces individuality to the Borg collective, causing it to disintegrate -- which, somehow gets overshadowed by the conflict between Data and Lore. The second was the Borg Queen in Star Trek: First Contact -- and my criticisms of that should be obvious. The third was Janeway's destruction of the Borg Queen (again), the entire Borg fleet, and the Borg transwarp conduit network -- although that was the climax to a much more complex storyline involving Seven of Nine, which involved many of the original themes about recovering individuality, which redeems it.
Earlier in the thread, someone posted a link to the actual writer's guide for Voyager, from Sternbach and Okuda. It's quite a fun read.
(...)
I never knew there was an actual draft of this floating around, good find And I do like the fact that it's at the state of Voyager's season 1, before they "reimagined" the Borg and all the other horrible things they did. Hell, the manual even reminds the writers that Voyager does have a limited amount of torpedo casings
However, I would advice you to create a new thread with your post in it, since this thread is older than 30 days and moderators in this forum do not accept "necroposting" and will lock this thread, encouraging you to create the exact same thread right next to it. Don't ask, it doesn't make sense, but those are the rules around here
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
That's fine, the Borg can go ahead and assault the planet, much in the same way the Breen launched a surprise attack against a little-defended Earth in the latter days of the Dominion War. Starfleet won that battle by repelling the Breen. If a fleet of Breen warships couldn't completely decimate the over 500 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface and claim victory, one ship wouldn't be able to pull it off either.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Trying to compare the Borg to the Breen is kind of silly. They are on completely different class levels. Breen ships are roughly equal to a Federation ship, a Borg cube is stronger than a Federation fleet (or at least can take a beating from a Federation fleet).
Plus the Borg and the Breen had different goals. The Breen was a hit and run raid, the Borg was an invasion.
Now did the Federation do better against the First Contact cube than they did against the Wolf 359 cube? Yes. But without someone working past Borg defenses (either by putting them to sleep or by figuring out a weak point that didn't seem like one), Earth would have been hit with an invasion force.
The original Borg we see in BobW are really more of a story telling element than an actual entity to fight. The Borg were the ultimate hostile element of the unknown. A leader- home- and strctureless hive mind whose only purpose was to prevail and incorporate every part of technology in itself. That meant that technology, machines and firepower were not viable means to prevail through an Borg encounter. That's what TNG wanted to tell - force is not the answer. It required the human element to outwit the threat, not man built weapons to shoot them. "Assimilation" wasn't a thing either, the creation of Locutus was something unique. Borg actually bred in TNG.
Because the authors considered the audience stupid they needed to change the Borg entirely into ravaging space zombie-vampires with a unstatisfyable hunger for brains... erm assimilation, led by a sexy techno-dracullette. They were reduced to zombie cannon fodder, bascially and each and every game based on Star Trek used that theme, thus the idea was born that "we" could win by just shooting hard enough. This is one of the worst developments within the Star Trek franchise, in my opinion.
Just wanted to voice that, I realize that it doesn't help the thread in any way
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Out of universe that is actually absolutely correct.
But in-universe they still designed stuff to try to fight back^^
The truth is that while I disagree with the system that forces ships into a narrow definition, I also see that not every ship can be like Klingon Raiders, and multi-role ships like the Odyssey don't really work so well. Given our recent experience with so-called Galaxy Reboot (another ship that was wrongly transcribed) I don't think we can expect better.
Instead of this though let's all support a T5 Miranda. if there isn't a thread for it let's start one.
Update: I found a thread for this subject
For Disclosure purposes I run a sci-officer in a Nebula (Advanced Research Vessel?) though I keep a T5 LRSV close by in case I wake up in a mood.
Also true, although what I was tryiong to say is that these efforts should really be puny, futile attempts once a cube shows up. The best bet to defeat a cube would probably be to insert boarding parties in sensitive spots to sabotage the thing, developing gear to prevent "assimilation" but meh... tiny battlewarships of doom, alpha-striking cubes, yeah!
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Star Trek Voyager Technical Manual
Page 7:
Page 21:
Which brings me to the current tangent in the discussion: the trouble with the Borg.
The Borg were introduced very early in ST:TNG. And I think it's no accident that, as some people will point out, the Borg superficially resemble the Federation: their technology is more advanced than most cultures they encounter; they assimilate any new culture or technology they come across; and they quickly adapt to new situations. The most frightening thing about the Borg is that they don't have any concept of individuality, or of the value of the diverse cultures they absorb. This serves to highlight what we're supposed to value about the Federation: its humanism, in its respect for individuals and for the autonomy of cultures. The Borg appear shortly after we've been introduced to the new Enterprise, and this is a reminder that our protagonists will overcome their challenges, not primarily through pew-pew-pew and technobabble, but through creativity and humanism.
So, the first trouble with the Borg is that they were finally defeated on at least three separate occasions -- and only the first of those follows from the original premise, in the plot arc concerning Hugh, who develops an individual identity and who reintroduces individuality to the Borg collective, causing it to disintegrate -- which, somehow gets overshadowed by the conflict between Data and Lore. The second was the Borg Queen in Star Trek: First Contact -- and my criticisms of that should be obvious. The third was Janeway's destruction of the Borg Queen (again), the entire Borg fleet, and the Borg transwarp conduit network -- although that was the climax to a much more complex storyline involving Seven of Nine, which involved many of the original themes about recovering individuality, which redeems it.
I never knew there was an actual draft of this floating around, good find
However, I would advice you to create a new thread with your post in it, since this thread is older than 30 days and moderators in this forum do not accept "necroposting" and will lock this thread, encouraging you to create the exact same thread right next to it. Don't ask, it doesn't make sense, but those are the rules around here
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