Frankly, I feel like we need at least one true science ship with four weapons in the fore and three in the aft. The Dyson science destroyer doesn't count because it does the transformer BS to switch from a science ship to a destroyer and back.
What i am saying is we need a science ship with 7 fully customizable weapon slots. We already have a cruiser with only 6 weapons slots like a science ship (the nebula class) so we might as well get a science ship with 7 weapon slots.
I can already hear people complaining about power creep and making the game too easy for dumb players ... whatever. All i know is that either the devs need to radically change sci powers to give sci powers the ability to deal major burst damage or we need at least one science ship with an extra weapon slot.
In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
You are correct on the blank ships. I think the 4s were planed and created a short time after the Galaxy project had all necessary runs done. Planing and constructing takes a long progress on prototype models.
As much as I heard, the frst 4 ships were put in service in the middle of TNG but I can be wrong.
I have a feeling that this thread is running circles
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)(Akira supposedly has 15 photon torpedo lauchers)
(...)
According to the DS9 technical manual, it has 2 (two).
I know Memory Alpha supposedly quotes the TM with 15 torps, yet I have the bloody thing right in front of me, it says two. (page 153, ISBN 0-671-01563-X)
15 torpedo launchers is just overkill.
EDIT: Fixed. That was easy I'll acknowledge I'm wrong and am fine with reverting the changes when someone points out why it should have 15 torpedo launchers and what's the source for that information. On-Screen we never got a hint on it's armament other than it does fire phasers and the TM, as I pointed out, says two launchers.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They were designed to counter the Borg threat. Starfleet isn't in the business of putting thousands of people's lives in danger, to observe "test runs".
Q warned Picard, that the Borg were coming. Picard warned Starfleet. Starfleet poo-pooed Picard as a Chicken Little. Borg show up, Starfleet dispatches Grand Armada, Borg demonstrate Grand Armada is no obstacle for them. Enterprise destroys Borg. Starfleet now with egg on face, decides old fleet is ineffectual against Borg, and it needs new line of ships designed to counter this threat, so Earth will not be assimilated. Sovereign, Defiant, Steamrunner, Norway, Sabre, and Akira classes are laid down. All are "modern" starships, capable of automatically, randomly, cycling weapon, and shield frequencies, with heavily, upgunned kinetic weaponry. (Akira supposedly has 15 photon torpedo lauchers)
It's the same thing people do in STO. You take a ship into an STF, or PvP and get pasted, you try to keep that from happening again on your next playthrough by altering your loadout. This is what Starfleet did after Wolf 359.
Again, nothing indicating that.
Onlay the Defiant was designed to counter the Borg (and IMO it makes a sense with her).
Cycling weapons and shields, advanced weapons like quantum torpedoes ect were probably things addet to EVERY ship, including older ones. But even thats an assumption.
But in canon ONLY the Federation design to fight the Borg is and always was the Defiant.
Non-canon website? It's run by the guys who design the ships for Star Trek!
For canon arguments, that doesn't matter. For canon, it has to be seen on screen. It can be used to infer something about the ship if you're writing non-canon material about it, but that's it.
According to the DS9 technical manual, it has 2 (two).
I know Memory Alpha supposedly quotes the TM with 15 torps, yet I have the bloody thing right in front of me, it says two. (page 153, ISBN 0-671-01563-X)
15 torpedo launchers is just overkill.
EDIT: Fixed. That was easy I'll acknowledge I'm wrong and am fine with reverting the changes when someone points out why it should have 15 torpedo launchers and what's the source for that information. On-Screen we never got a hint on it's armament other than it does fire phasers and the TM, as I pointed out, says two launchers.
that ds9 manual ship stat guide is full of obvious copy paste errors. you can look at the model and see between 15 and 21 tubes, if you count everything that looks like a canon place the ship fired torps from
that ds9 manual ship stat guide is full of obvious copy paste errors. you can look at the model and see between 15 and 21 tubes, if you count everything that looks like a canon place the ship fired torps from
I'll grant more "tubes" on the "weapon cluster" (mission pod), yet they probably treat the whole unit as a launcher, facing fore and aft which makes for two probably with the possibility of rapid fire or spread launches. This is how I think the technical manual explains the thing, at the end of the day that's what the manual says.
It's no secret that I dislike the Akira class very much. According to the designer it was meant to be a five-year-old's mary sue uber battlewarcarriership of doom feauturing large hangars with bazillion starfighters, 15-ish torpedo launchers, cannons and all that wonky TRIBBLE of which nothing is left on-screen. If any funny looking bump at the thing is meant to be a torpedo launcher then fine, it gots a bazillion and is by far the ship with the most destructive firepower in all fo Starfleet - yet, every time we see one on-screen it gets shot Though on-screen doesn't proof any of that and the manual says two launchers and tat's what one has to acknowledge if the manual is part of the citation. I'm personally not ready to shrug it off as a copy and paste error, to me that's akin to "they just didn't have the budget" argumentation, but of course that is just my personal opinion.
At the end of the day, if the manual is quoted it's two launchers
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
According to the DS9 technical manual, it has 2 (two).
I know Memory Alpha supposedly quotes the TM with 15 torps, yet I have the bloody thing right in front of me, it says two. (page 153, ISBN 0-671-01563-X)
15 torpedo launchers is just overkill.
EDIT: Fixed. That was easy I'll acknowledge I'm wrong and am fine with reverting the changes when someone points out why it should have 15 torpedo launchers and what's the source for that information. On-Screen we never got a hint on it's armament other than it does fire phasers and the TM, as I pointed out, says two launchers.
Wasn't the 15 torpedo launcher thing dropped when they changed the Akira from its original design as a uber carrier to a cruiser?
Wasn't the 15 torpedo launcher thing dropped when they changed the Akira from its original design as a uber carrier to a cruiser?
That's the most reasonable thing can think of. Like I posted before, the guy designing the ship went on a five-year-old's "my superstarship" spree while designing it and pretty much nothing of those fanfantasies made it into the incarnation of the ship class (thankfully). A ship with 15 torpedo launchers is just ridiculously out of any consistensy, it would literally be the ultimate doom machine. That's a weapon overkill Star Trek neither works with nor needs. Even when they went on their militarization spree for Nemesis, the uber-Sovereign-refit "only" got six launchers (on each facing) which still would make the Akira class the ultimate super-duper-uber-battlewarship of doom.
This whole weapon system supersizing thankfully stopped, admiittedly because Star Trek as a whole kind of... stopped. But it's not reasonable by any means.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's the most reasonable thing can think of. Like I posted before, the guy designing the ship went on a five-year-old's "my superstarship" spree while designing it
Heh, I find it enjoyable to see the playerbase do a complete 180 on his input since post after post after post in these forums have used that entry as justification for a Federation Carrier over the years.
Heh, I find it enjoyable to see the playerbase do a complete 180 on his input since post after post after post in these forums have used that entry as justification for a Federation Carrier over the years.
I certainly can't speak for "the playerbase", though I personally have always been against any kind of "carrier" mechanic in a Star Trek game. Small Craft are just not meant to fight Starships in this IP. The only way I personally think pet space combat SHOULD work is to call in "commandable" off-map frigates (instead of "spawning" from a carrier they simply warp in and work exactly the same) or via separation mechanics, the latter would in my book as well include a ship capable of using a maximum of two Sentry Pods (we saw in TNG along the Mars Defense Perimeter) since those are already almost frigate sized. Anything smaller than that should just be feasible for abilities like "Boarding Party" (possible other variants are "Point Defense" and/or "Diversion", see Starfleet Command).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I certainly can't speak for "the playerbase", though I personally have always been against any kind of "carrier" mechanic in a Star Trek game. Small Craft are just not meant to fight Starships in this IP. The only way I personally think pet space combat SHOULD work is to call in "commandable" off-map frigates (instead of "spawning" from a carrier they simply warp in and work exactly the same) or via separation mechanics, the latter would in my book as well include a ship capable of using a maximum of two Sentry Pods (we saw in TNG along the Mars Defense Perimeter) since those are already almost frigate sized. Anything smaller than that should just be feasible for abilities like "Boarding Party" (possible other variants are "Point Defense" and/or "Diversion", see Starfleet Command).
Mhm. Well they HAD the Peregnrine fighters in the dominion war.
They also used the Runabouts before the Defiant came along, even in combination with Capital ships like Galaxy class vessels.
And they HAD the Scorpion fighters in Nemesis, there must be a reason why those are on board.
In fact naming the "carrier" Mechanics "CARRIER" is kind of a joke, the 6 shuttles the Akira can launch could any ship short of the Defiant launch. Although, I admit, that kind of thing didn't regularly happen on the show.
I still like it and often wish I could launch shuttles now and then on other ships^^
That game is far away from "Star Trek" anyway.
I'll grant more "tubes" on the "weapon cluster" (mission pod), yet they probably treat the whole unit as a launcher, facing fore and aft which makes for two probably with the possibility of rapid fire or spread launches. This is how I think the technical manual explains the thing, at the end of the day that's what the manual says.
It's no secret that I dislike the Akira class very much. According to the designer it was meant to be a five-year-old's mary sue uber battlewarcarriership of doom feauturing large hangars with bazillion starfighters, 15-ish torpedo launchers, cannons and all that wonky TRIBBLE of which nothing is left on-screen. If any funny looking bump at the thing is meant to be a torpedo launcher then fine, it gots a bazillion and is by far the ship with the most destructive firepower in all fo Starfleet - yet, every time we see one on-screen it gets shot Though on-screen doesn't proof any of that and the manual says two launchers and tat's what one has to acknowledge if the manual is part of the citation. I'm personally not ready to shrug it off as a copy and paste error, to me that's akin to "they just didn't have the budget" argumentation, but of course that is just my personal opinion.
At the end of the day, if the manual is quoted it's two launchers
the whole carrier thing is bs. the ship would have to be significantly scaled up for that single deck tall opening in the front to be a through carrier hanger door. the fact that the marry sue stuff dint make it into canon lets me enjoy the class.
as far as all the torpedoe launchers go, not all launchers are created equally. those ~15 launchers the akira has, they are most likely single shot launchers, as in they fire 1 and reload 1. the 2 launchers on the galaxy class, they can load at least 20 into a prefire magazine and expel them all in a handful of seconds. these launchers are enormous, and there is room to house them because its such a large ship, thats not the case on many smaller classes. launchers on the sovereign and intrepid have been seen toping out at bursts of 3 and 4 before needing to reload by comparison. the intrepid has 4 burst 4 launchers, and the sovereign has like 5 burst 3 and a couple of small single shot launchers. so, the fact that there are ~15 launchers on the akira does not bother me, when each tube is single shot.
Correction, nothing that you can see indicating that. You have to be able to perceive the subtlety of what's not being said on screen. Here's a question: If the Defiant was designed to counter the Borg, how come it wound up, being towed home, by the Enterprise? Bet you don't have a canonical explanation for that, hmm? And no you just can't stick new weapons on older ships, Star Trek is different from STO. If it were possible to do that, then you wouldn't need to build a Defiant, and "Old Ironsides" would still be serving in the U.S. Navy as a nuclear powered, guided missile cruiser, today.
But hey, you can't argue with hardcore Canonphobes, so if the idea that only the Defiant, and none of it's contemporaries, were designed as Borg fighters, makes you feel safe, I'm not gonna argue with you.
Canonical explanation is simple:
Because the Borg were still tactical far superior. Thats a no brainer.
And secondly: The Defaint CLASS was build to fight the Borg, that does not mean a single Defiant pwning a Cube. No brainer too.
And yes you can just stick new weapons to older ships in star trek, just look at the USS Lakota.
Pretty weak answer, Champ. If the Borg were "tactically superior", how come Earth wasn't ultimately, assimilated? Doesn't work, see?
So Starfleet designed, and built a single starship, that they knew was no match for a single Borg ship? That doesn't make sense, either.
So why didn't they just stick all the Defiant's weapons on the Lakota, and not even have to build the Defiant? Honestly, they could probably fit five Defiant's worth of weaponry on the Lakota.
1. Plot armor + federation' best captains + PURE luck
2. It was supposed to be a entire fleet of defiant class escorts, but after the prototype nearly ripped itself a new one and the borg disappeared for while, there was little reason to try adn fix the problem and create more of them
3. Certain ships are not built for that kind of firepower. Also, no shield or armor could truly stand up to the borg, which is why the Defiant is so small and nimble, you cannot kill what you cannot hit.
Pretty weak answer, Champ. If the Borg were "tactically superior", how come Earth wasn't ultimately, assimilated? Doesn't work, see?
So Starfleet designed, and built a single starship, that they knew was no match for a single Borg ship? That doesn't make sense, either.
So why didn't they just stick all the Defiant's weapons on the Lakota, and not even have to build the Defiant? Honestly, they could probably fit five Defiant's worth of weaponry on the Lakota.
Not sure if didn't watch or didn't understand the movie. Both is pretty weak on your side "champ".
There was that little scene with Picard finding weak spots through inside knowledge and it was obvious that the federation was loosing up to this point.
Also you do not seem to understand that ships are more then weapons.
And on a side note: in canon the Defiant wasn't as strong as sto and fanboys make it. The point of the ship is beeing small and strong for its size.
Also I don't know any weapon the Defiant had and the Lakota not.
And both ships seemed to be pretty much en par, and that considering that the Lakota, weapons upgrade or not, was an 100 years old design.
Ok. So, for one thing there's the use of the word "generally" which is not an absolute by anyone's means, and as such is open to a wide field of interpretation.
Next, you're grabbing a definition of canon, from something that in, and of itself, is not canon.
And the hits keep coming.
Ok you expect them to define canon on screen?
I can not face palm enough.
You can consider your personal fantasies as canon if you want. Most other people will stick with the rules.
Oh, right, Canon is only what we see on screen. There weren't any subsequent engagements with the Borg. They didn't adapt to fix that weakness, and come back with more ships, even though Q described them as relentless.
Weapons, and shields, are what count, when fighting Borg. Nimbleness, and speed don't. Borg grab you with a tractor beam, collapse your shields, beam over, and start assimilating your ship. Unless you can cycle shields, and weapons, you're toast.
IF the ship is fast enough, HOW can you lock on with the tractor beam. Shields and weapons mean nothing, as shields mean nothing, even in the show, and they adopt to nearly every weapon used. so please know what you are talking about before you start talking about contradictions
Comments
What i am saying is we need a science ship with 7 fully customizable weapon slots. We already have a cruiser with only 6 weapons slots like a science ship (the nebula class) so we might as well get a science ship with 7 weapon slots.
I can already hear people complaining about power creep and making the game too easy for dumb players ... whatever. All i know is that either the devs need to radically change sci powers to give sci powers the ability to deal major burst damage or we need at least one science ship with an extra weapon slot.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
As much as I heard, the frst 4 ships were put in service in the middle of TNG but I can be wrong.
The offense/defense systems but were pretty new.
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According to the DS9 technical manual, it has 2 (two).
I know Memory Alpha supposedly quotes the TM with 15 torps, yet I have the bloody thing right in front of me, it says two. (page 153, ISBN 0-671-01563-X)
15 torpedo launchers is just overkill.
EDIT: Fixed. That was easy
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Again, nothing indicating that.
Onlay the Defiant was designed to counter the Borg (and IMO it makes a sense with her).
Cycling weapons and shields, advanced weapons like quantum torpedoes ect were probably things addet to EVERY ship, including older ones. But even thats an assumption.
But in canon ONLY the Federation design to fight the Borg is and always was the Defiant.
That always happens to that kind of thread.
The intrepid hasn't even been mentioned for pages....
Still not canon... not even memory alpha "is" canon, just accurate.
that ds9 manual ship stat guide is full of obvious copy paste errors. you can look at the model and see between 15 and 21 tubes, if you count everything that looks like a canon place the ship fired torps from
*facepalm*
Does not matter, ONLY what is seen on screen is canon, this has been said several times, and been stated A LOT by CBS now, and Roddenberry before.
I'll grant more "tubes" on the "weapon cluster" (mission pod), yet they probably treat the whole unit as a launcher, facing fore and aft which makes for two probably with the possibility of rapid fire or spread launches. This is how I think the technical manual explains the thing, at the end of the day that's what the manual says.
It's no secret that I dislike the Akira class very much. According to the designer it was meant to be a five-year-old's mary sue uber battlewarcarriership of doom feauturing large hangars with bazillion starfighters, 15-ish torpedo launchers, cannons and all that wonky TRIBBLE of which nothing is left on-screen. If any funny looking bump at the thing is meant to be a torpedo launcher then fine, it gots a bazillion and is by far the ship with the most destructive firepower in all fo Starfleet - yet, every time we see one on-screen it gets shot
At the end of the day, if the manual is quoted it's two launchers
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Wasn't the 15 torpedo launcher thing dropped when they changed the Akira from its original design as a uber carrier to a cruiser?
That's the most reasonable thing can think of. Like I posted before, the guy designing the ship went on a five-year-old's "my superstarship" spree while designing it and pretty much nothing of those fanfantasies made it into the incarnation of the ship class (thankfully). A ship with 15 torpedo launchers is just ridiculously out of any consistensy, it would literally be the ultimate doom machine. That's a weapon overkill Star Trek neither works with nor needs. Even when they went on their militarization spree for Nemesis, the uber-Sovereign-refit "only" got six launchers (on each facing) which still would make the Akira class the ultimate super-duper-uber-battlewarship of doom.
This whole weapon system supersizing thankfully stopped, admiittedly because Star Trek as a whole kind of... stopped. But it's not reasonable by any means.
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Heh, I find it enjoyable to see the playerbase do a complete 180 on his input since post after post after post in these forums have used that entry as justification for a Federation Carrier over the years.
I certainly can't speak for "the playerbase", though I personally have always been against any kind of "carrier" mechanic in a Star Trek game. Small Craft are just not meant to fight Starships in this IP. The only way I personally think pet space combat SHOULD work is to call in "commandable" off-map frigates (instead of "spawning" from a carrier they simply warp in and work exactly the same) or via separation mechanics, the latter would in my book as well include a ship capable of using a maximum of two Sentry Pods (we saw in TNG along the Mars Defense Perimeter) since those are already almost frigate sized. Anything smaller than that should just be feasible for abilities like "Boarding Party" (possible other variants are "Point Defense" and/or "Diversion", see Starfleet Command).
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Mhm. Well they HAD the Peregnrine fighters in the dominion war.
They also used the Runabouts before the Defiant came along, even in combination with Capital ships like Galaxy class vessels.
And they HAD the Scorpion fighters in Nemesis, there must be a reason why those are on board.
In fact naming the "carrier" Mechanics "CARRIER" is kind of a joke, the 6 shuttles the Akira can launch could any ship short of the Defiant launch. Although, I admit, that kind of thing didn't regularly happen on the show.
I still like it and often wish I could launch shuttles now and then on other ships^^
That game is far away from "Star Trek" anyway.
the whole carrier thing is bs. the ship would have to be significantly scaled up for that single deck tall opening in the front to be a through carrier hanger door. the fact that the marry sue stuff dint make it into canon lets me enjoy the class.
as far as all the torpedoe launchers go, not all launchers are created equally. those ~15 launchers the akira has, they are most likely single shot launchers, as in they fire 1 and reload 1. the 2 launchers on the galaxy class, they can load at least 20 into a prefire magazine and expel them all in a handful of seconds. these launchers are enormous, and there is room to house them because its such a large ship, thats not the case on many smaller classes. launchers on the sovereign and intrepid have been seen toping out at bursts of 3 and 4 before needing to reload by comparison. the intrepid has 4 burst 4 launchers, and the sovereign has like 5 burst 3 and a couple of small single shot launchers. so, the fact that there are ~15 launchers on the akira does not bother me, when each tube is single shot.
Canonical explanation is simple:
Because the Borg were still tactical far superior. Thats a no brainer.
And secondly: The Defaint CLASS was build to fight the Borg, that does not mean a single Defiant pwning a Cube. No brainer too.
And yes you can just stick new weapons to older ships in star trek, just look at the USS Lakota.
And? Of course there are contradictions, within more then 500 episodes. Doesn't mean we have room for more contradictions from outside sources.
1. Plot armor + federation' best captains + PURE luck
2. It was supposed to be a entire fleet of defiant class escorts, but after the prototype nearly ripped itself a new one and the borg disappeared for while, there was little reason to try adn fix the problem and create more of them
3. Certain ships are not built for that kind of firepower. Also, no shield or armor could truly stand up to the borg, which is why the Defiant is so small and nimble, you cannot kill what you cannot hit.
Not sure if didn't watch or didn't understand the movie. Both is pretty weak on your side "champ".
There was that little scene with Picard finding weak spots through inside knowledge and it was obvious that the federation was loosing up to this point.
Also you do not seem to understand that ships are more then weapons.
And on a side note: in canon the Defiant wasn't as strong as sto and fanboys make it. The point of the ship is beeing small and strong for its size.
Also I don't know any weapon the Defiant had and the Lakota not.
And both ships seemed to be pretty much en par, and that considering that the Lakota, weapons upgrade or not, was an 100 years old design.
Ok you expect them to define canon on screen?
I can not face palm enough.
You can consider your personal fantasies as canon if you want. Most other people will stick with the rules.
There is no contradiction in his statement.
Come back when you manage to understand one simple rule.
IF the ship is fast enough, HOW can you lock on with the tractor beam. Shields and weapons mean nothing, as shields mean nothing, even in the show, and they adopt to nearly every weapon used. so please know what you are talking about before you start talking about contradictions