Mhm. Well they HAD the Peregnrine fighters in the dominion war.
They also used the Runabouts before the Defiant came along, even in combination with Capital ships like Galaxy class vessels.
And they HAD the Scorpion fighters in Nemesis, there must be a reason why those are on board.
In fact naming the "carrier" Mechanics "CARRIER" is kind of a joke, the 6 shuttles the Akira can launch could any ship short of the Defiant launch. Although, I admit, that kind of thing didn't regularly happen on the show.
I still like it and often wish I could launch shuttles now and then on other ships^^
That game is far away from "Star Trek" anyway.
The infamous attack fighter scene. One scene in DS9 and everybody goes crazy
I personally do not consider Peregrines worthless by any means, though like the Defiant class I imagine them serving as interceptors for immobile Starbases. In ship-to-ship combat, the Peregrines in Sacrifice were meant to disrupt the enemy lines out of desperation. We see them either being ignored since the ruse was compromised early on) or one-shotted since they could never hope to deflect a full grown Starship's weapon systems. We see presumably one Galor going down due to a critical hit strafig run - that's a mechanic I would approve as well. Call them, five Peregrines warp in, do a strafing run on a target (causing disable effects) and warp out again - they simply have no staying power.
The Runabouts acting as point defense for the Odyssey is understandable. I'm okay with point defense shuttles and further Runabouts are "Shuttles plus plus" - although we see them not really helping once the combat begins, not only because the Dominion knew the Oddysseys shield configuration (or their polaron weapons were so alien that shields weren't designed against those, I can't remember).
We know nothing about the Scorpions, really. Only that they were there and fit inside a living room My personal theory is that they are designed for atmospheric tasks due to their shape and small size and the fact that they don't even have warp drive let alone a warp core, thus are incapable of generating any form of power to either attack or defend even a Runabout. I imagine them equivalent to those Bajoran interceptors http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bajoran_fighter
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Unless the guys being swarmed find a way to cancel the swarmer's numerical advantage. Most of the TIE fighters, and Cylons that I've seen, didn't really do that well using this tactic. Kind of the reason why the Millenium Falcon was the best ship in Star Wars, instead of the TIE fighters that tried to swarm it.
The Borg Cube hadn't found a way to cancel out the advantages of the swarming Starfleet armada in First Contact. Starfleet was taking losses, but was still in a superior condition overall to seize control and gain a victory. Even without Picard's magic knowledge, the Cube would eventually become overwhelmed. There were still a great number of functioning, firing ships.
That said, it's still the only ship in canon specifically designed to fight the Borg. The rest likely have weapon upgrades that came out of Starfleet research into new weapons, but that doesn't make them designed to fight the Borg.
The Sovereign-class was also designed to fight the Borg. I'm not 100% positive if the Prometheus is also solely a Borg-fighting ship.
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The infamous attack fighter scene. One scene in DS9 and everybody goes crazy
I personally do not consider Peregrines worthless by any means, though like the Defiant class I imagine them serving as interceptors for immobile Starbases. In ship-to-ship combat, the Peregrines in Sacrifice were meant to disrupt the enemy lines out of desperation. We see them either being ignored since the ruse was compromised early on) or one-shotted since they could never hope to deflect a full grown Starship's weapon systems. We see presumably one Galor going down due to a critical hit strafig run - that's a mechanic I would approve as well. Call them, five Peregrines warp in, do a strafing run on a target (causing disable effects) and warp out again - they simply have no staying power.
The Runabouts acting as point defense for the Odyssey is understandable. I'm okay with point defense shuttles and further Runabouts are "Shuttles plus plus" - although we see them not really helping once the combat begins, not only because the Dominion knew the Oddysseys shield configuration (or their polaron weapons were so alien that shields weren't designed against those, I can't remember).
We know nothing about the Scorpions, really. Only that they were there and fit inside a living room My personal theory is that they are designed for atmospheric tasks due to their shape and small size and the fact that they don't even have warp drive let alone a warp core, thus are incapable of generating any form of power to either attack or defend even a Runabout. I imagine them equivalent to those Bajoran interceptors http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bajoran_fighter
Cant disagree on any of that... point is "some fighter like stuff was there".
There were also that fighter ships on the academy in that Wesley Crusher Episode btw.
I personally (although I know I probably alone on that) would like to see that whole Hangar stuff extended not reduced.
We are furred into the admiral rule, right? So I thing it should focus more on frigate type of ships not as a "ship launched from hangar" more as a "ships called in/accompanying" our characters "flagships".
Fighter would be more of an "optional" thing to that. They could add Mirnadas, Defiants ... even may be the TOS Connie as pet ships. And for those who do not want pets the "Hangar" slot should have an optional use like... well putting one of those c-store consoles there. Or something more powerful. Kind of a multipurpose slot that can launch pets.
The Sovereign-class was also designed to fight the Borg. I'm not 100% positive if the Prometheus is also solely a Borg-fighting ship.
Not in canon, which is what we are talking about. In canon, only the Defiant is known to be designed to fight the Borg. The Prometheus is a long range tactical ship. There's nothing to indicate that the Sovereign was designed with anything special in mind. She's obviously more heavily armed than a Galaxy class, but was likely designed to do the same sort of missions.
Outside of canon, the Sovereign, Defiant and Prometheus were designed in response to the Borg. The Akira and other ships in First Contact depend on which source of non-canon you go with. And if you want to talk official novels, the Vesta wasn't designed to fight the Borg but it was one of the few ships that could do so in the Destiny novels (without being armed with transphasic torpedoes).
It's a simple war rule: Swarm Tactics. Put an armada of heavily-armed-for-their-size expendable ships against one target, and you eventually overwhelm the target and destroy it. As a contemporary example, see TIE Fighters, Cylon Raiders, etc etc etc.
That doesn't work against the borg. They adapt and re-assimilate.
That doesn't work against the borg. They adapt and re-assimilate.
How would they adapt to that?
And there is nothing about that worth "assimilating".
Also: That being the PLAN behind it still does not mean it would work. The Defiant was the attempt to face an enemy against whom the federation didn't have even the SLIGHTEST chance during the first confrontation on the battlefield. They tried to make the best of what they could think of doing against the Borg.
With the "adapt and reasiimilate" argument you counter ANYTHING made up to fight the Borg. With that mind set surrender would be the only option.
The same way they adapted to everything in the show. One or two successes for Starfleet, then they adapted.
That's the whole point of the Borg as presented in TNG. It's what made them scary. It's what made Wolf 359 happen.
It's gimmicky writing but it's how they worked in the plots.
I'm not questioning that this is how the Borg work.
But that does not resolve the two issues with your statement.
Since the Borg adapt in fact to everything they CAN adapt to anything whats the conclusion to that for star fleet in your Book? Doing nothing?
It was a factor that the Borg WOULD return one day or another, so how to prepare for that?
And I can answer to ANYTHING you respond to that with your own quote: They adapt.
So since they had to do SOMETHING they tried the best they could. And the only known attempt in doing so is called "the Defiant". As a base for swarm tactics. Again: Nobody said this would with work with certainty. Its just what the attempt is about.
Also; still: Its a strategy that might work against the Borgs usual approach and the question is HOW to adapt to that.
A cube is still a Cube = one big ugly ship, a Defiant is still hard to hit. The Borg targeting is probably as good as it gets, since its pretty inefficient to NOT have the best possible targeting; so how adept?
May be instead of that one all ship erasing beam using less efficient beams with lower firerate. That would help other ships to survive, still a win.
You simply can't adept to everything. Not even the Borg can. Not even in TNG. May be they find a way to adapt to that, may be not.
As much as the Borg can adapt to almost anything, it seems that applying a continuous and sufficient amount of weapons, even ones they have adapted to or partially adapted to, they can still be damaged. It just takes a lot of it, which is where the swarm tactics come in. Hit it enough and eventually you'll do some damage.
In Voyager, I heard how Voyager itself was designed for tactical actions.
It's kinda odd to me, however.
I'd like to see the game disolve the class system to a user based dynamic, so that way I could modify any ship I want to fit my playstyle. but I guess its a long way off.
Since the Borg adapt in fact to everything they CAN adapt to anything whats the conclusion to that for star fleet in your Book? Doing nothing?
There's a series of options.
1- Use technology from the future to overpower the Borg of today.
2- Infect them with a virus that erodes the collective hive mind and leaves them alone as individuals, weakening their ability to properly assimilate.
3- Team up with their creators the Caeliar and utterly destroy their presence in the entire galaxy throughout time, forcing them to GTFO the Milky Way and go be some other galaxy's problem.
That's Voyager. TNG. And Destiny.
Pick your poison. None of those options involved sending small squadrons of defiants at cubes to attack.
so how to prepare for that?
Annika > Quad Cannons.
And I can answer to ANYTHING you respond to that with your own quote: They adapt.
Yeah, they absolutely adapt to technology. So stop trying to overpower them.
A cube is still a Cube = one big ugly ship,
Connected to the collective. So it's more than just a cube.
You simply can't adept to everything. Not even the Borg can. Not even in TNG. May be they find a way to adapt to that, may be not.
They don't have to adapt to everything. They just have to adapt to yet another full assault of firepower from the Federation, which has failed repeatedly. Hell in First Contact they "adapted" by going back in time.
1- Use technology from the future to overpower the Borg of today.
2- Infect them with a virus that erodes the collective hive mind and leaves them alone as individuals, weakening their ability to properly assimilate.
3- Team up with their creators the Caeliar and utterly destroy their presence in the entire galaxy throughout time, forcing them to GTFO the Milky Way and go be some other galaxy's problem.
That's Voyager. TNG. And Destiny.
Pick your poison. None of those options involved sending small squadrons of defiants at cubes to attack.
Obviuosly we are talking about different things.
Because I am speaking about Starfleets preparation between Wolf 359 and the first contact battle, and none of those Options were available there.
That topic is WHAT THEY DID in that time to prepare and WHAT THEY HOPED would work, not what actually would help.
Beside MAY BE time travel which would violate some core directives of the federation and I'm really not going into a discussion about how the federation could get future tech without having a future if the Borg invade.
Also they simply didn't DO that.
Annika > Quad Cannons.
????? What is that supposed to say?
Yeah, they absolutely adapt to technology. So stop trying to overpower them.
Since none of you examples above were available at this time... That means doing nothing.
To be honest... thats what they did, the Defiant project was canceled and First Contact showed that they didn't really have anything offer instead (beside Picards inside knowledge, which is something they didn't foresee)
Connected to the collective. So it's more than just a cube.
In sense of tactics its just that.1 Object in Space. I don't know what your argument is supposed to be here.
They don't have to adapt to everything. They just have to adapt to yet another full assault of firepower from the Federation, which has failed repeatedly. Hell in First Contact they "adapted" by going back in time.
And? Again... where is your argument here? Yes thats a way of adapting... and?
Obviuosly we are talking about different things.
Because I am speaking about Starfleets preparation between Wolf 359 and the first contact battle, and none of those Options were available there.
All three of those options were there.
The virus happened in TNG.
The Caeliar they didn't discover until later, but Destiny demonstrates that the actual contact was made back in Archer's time.
And time travel has always been an option.
????? What is that supposed to say?
A few things:
1- Annika and her parents were far more on the right track than the Defiant program was.
2- Borg expertise was there to be had.
3- Thinking about the problem outside of "bigger boom" is probably the best approach. And as it turned out, was the best approach.
The Defiant project, people keep clinging to this way the ship was introduced in DS9. But they don't tell the whole story of the episode. It was a failure. Sisko and O'Brien had to team up to work out the problems with the ship so that it could get use as a scout ship from the DS9 homebase and be useful in the Dominion conflict. As a borg response, it didn't pass muster.
In sense of tactics its just that.1 Object in Space. I don't know what your argument is supposed to be here.
And? Again... where is your argument here? Yes thats a way of adapting... and?
I really really don't get your point.
My point is really simple. You see it time and time again with the Borg. You get two to five shots then they adapt their shields and that is that. So the idea of a whole squadron of Defiants as an effective response to the Borg? Not going to work. They get some shots in. The collective adapts. And now they're just targets.
That doesn't work against the borg. They adapt and re-assimilate.
I'm working under the assumption that Starfleet is actually smart and can counter-adapt as well. Which leads us to two options:
1) One side adapts to the other side, which cannot counter-adapt;
or
2) Both sides adapt to a stalemate (each side's advantages cancel out), in which case greater numbers has a higher chance of overwhelming the target.
Either way, Starfleet is in a superior position in First Contact.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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The Defiant project, people keep clinging to this way the ship was introduced in DS9. But they don't tell the whole story of the episode. It was a failure. Sisko and O'Brien had to team up to work out the problems with the ship so that it could get use as a scout ship from the DS9 homebase and be useful in the Dominion conflict. As a borg response, it didn't pass muster.
You're confusing his argument. He's saying a wing of Defiants would have actually won against a Borg invasion, but that the ship was designed to fight the Borg with certain tactics. A wing of Defiants wouldn't have done any better than the fleet in First Contact did.
They were better prepared then at Wolf 359 but superior?
Wolf 359 was also a "Oh *****, we gotta scramble everything we have!" scenario as well; except there were little tactics developed to fight the Borg. See DS9: "Emissary" for how Starfleet fought in Wolf 359: sending in small waves of ships, only to be decimated.
In First Contact, they were better prepared, although apparently caught off guard. This time around, they had weapons and ships designed to fight the Borg and also designed to perform as part of a fleet.
Without Picards Cheat code they would have horribly lost....
We don't know that, and furthermore that is a personal opinion and not a logical derivation.
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Wolf 359 was also a "Oh *****, we gotta scramble everything we have!" scenario as well; except there were little tactics developed to fight the Borg. See DS9: "Emissary" for how Starfleet fought in Wolf 359: sending in small waves of ships, only to be decimated.
In First Contact, they were better prepared, although apparently caught off guard. This time around, they had weapons and ships designed to fight the Borg and also designed to perform as part of a fleet.
We don't know that, and furthermore that is a personal opinion and not a logical derivation.
Ahh... we do know that.
I see no room for interpretation for anything but the federation getting eaten for breakfast before the ENT-E arrived, so if no other miracle but Picards Cheat happened they would have clearly lost.
Thats what we saw on screen and if you see room for anything else, the screenplay and the novelization back me up.
The Federation was completely outclassed by the Borg in First Contact. Had the Enterprise not arrived and Picard not heard the weakness in what did not appear to be a vital system, the Cube would have made it to Earth orbit with the fleet still flying around it trying to destroy it.
Not quite as outclassed as they were at Wolf 359, but still not in a good position to do anything to stop the Borg.
Nope. Starfleet got creamed at Wolf 359 because they couldn't manually cycle their weapon frequencies, and then communicate this info to other ships, faster than the Borg could adapt. Everyone knows that, it's Borg 101.
And the defiant didn't solo the cube, there were plenty of other targets for the borg to shoot at, and despite it's supposed small size, and nimbleness, it still got knocked out. I love it when people just make stuff up, because they simply like the ship.
ok, now the people in this thread haven't even watched BOBW. there was a ton of talk, and action scenes were this was exactly what the D was doing when fighting the cube. this is all starfleet had ready by wolf 359, in its most basic form.
of course a single defiant was a drop in the bucket and made no difference, it wasn't backed up by 100 more, thats the whole point. its nothing special, and it being an anti borg ship is irreverent when theres only 1.
The Sovereign-class was also designed to fight the Borg. I'm not 100% positive if the Prometheus is also solely a Borg-fighting ship.
heres a handy checklist you can check any ship by to see if its actually built to specifically counter the borg
- its not a large general purpose cruiser
- its not a mid sized general purpose cruiser
- its a small and thus inexpensive, swarmable, and expendable
- its got an almost total focus on firepower and nothing else
if it fits this exact description, its an anti borg ship. the prometheus is highly specialized, but not as an anti borg ship. it seems like an anti squadron interceptor. or a ship that can take on another ship normally out of its weight class but wile separated can overwhelm.
there are also antiborg countermeasures and tactics, but every single ship can use those, or be retrofitted with them. thats the advanced frequency modulation, regenerative shields, quantum torps, etc. all the ships by first contact had them, and thats why the battle was going much better then wolf 359 had.
I'm working under the assumption that Starfleet is actually smart and can counter-adapt as well.
Starfleet can do that. Over a much longer period of time. The borg make that adaptation in the span of one combat encounter. That's what we see on the shows everytime and why we all run scared from the borg. The biggest advantage Starfleet had over the borg was never actually exploited. They move like slugs. Literally just kind of franken-walk from place to place. Whereas most federation species can walk, nay run, just a bit quicker.
Ahh... we do know that.
I see no room for interpretation for anything but the federation getting eaten for breakfast before the ENT-E arrived, so if no other miracle but Picards Cheat happened they would have clearly lost.
Thats what we saw on screen and if you see room for anything else, the screenplay and the novelization back me up.
Again, where is your proof that they are "clearly losing"?
The only indications are the visual effects of the fleet fighting the Cube, and the subspace radio transmissions received by the Enterprise before they joined the fight. The latter is inconclusive, since they could be taking losses in the initial time of the assault, but the later footage of the actual battle shows a great many Starfleet ships still intact, unhampered by tractor beams, and still moving and firing as normal. See the Akira, Nebula, Steamrunner, etc etc ships that were undamaged and launched weapons when Picard gave the order. Those ships didn't magically regenerate, and there are a great deal of undamaged ships. Starfleet hadn't lost the battle prior to, or during, Picard's intervention.
That is what I saw on screen; Picard's knowledge overcoming Borg adaptation, which the Borg could not counter to. My point is proven.
Screenplays are apocryphal at best, and novelizations are completely non-canon. The latter does not belong in this discussion.
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if it fits this exact description, its an anti borg ship. the prometheus is highly specialized, but not as an anti borg ship. it seems like an anti squadron interceptor. or a ship that can take on another ship normally out of its weight class but wile separated can overwhelm.
Actually... since we are discussing canon.... its an "anti Borg ship" if it was called an anti borg ship on screen. Which still only applies to the Defaint^^
For the Prometheus: You COULD argue, as a speculation, the in the MVA mode the Prometheus heavily relays on swarm tactics, too.
It would make sense that it was build with a similar mind set then the Defiant. And since this was the second of the 2 Federation warships we know about it would be reasonable to assume it was build to fight borg too. Again, as speculation.
I personally really doubt that they got the Prometheus up to prototype level if its build if it was build for the Dominion war, the planing must have started earlier to be ready when we saw her.
In Voyager, I heard how Voyager itself was designed for tactical actions.
It's kinda odd to me, however.
I'd like to see the game disolve the class system to a user based dynamic, so that way I could modify any ship I want to fit my playstyle. but I guess its a long way off.
Voyager wasn't a warship by any means. Although she had teeth, she wasn't bred for war (unlike the Defiant).
The user based dynamic you speak of has already been suggested by other people in the Galaxy threadnought - buy ship stats and use whatever costume you want. Unfortunately, Cryptic makes its money off of people who buy ships purely for aesthetic look.
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Again, where is your proof that they are "clearly losing"?
The only indications are the visual effects of the fleet fighting the Cube, and the subspace radio transmissions received by the Enterprise before they joined the fight. The latter is inconclusive, since they could be taking losses in the initial time of the assault, but the later footage of the actual battle shows a great many Starfleet ships still intact, unhampered by tractor beams, and still moving and firing as normal. See the Akira, Nebula, Steamrunner, etc etc ships that were undamaged and launched weapons when Picard gave the order. Those ships didn't magically regenerate, and there are a great deal of undamaged ships. Starfleet hadn't lost the battle prior to, or during, Picard's intervention.
That is what I saw on screen; Picard's knowledge overcoming Borg adaptation, which the Borg could not counter to. My point is proven.
Screenplays are apocryphal at best, and novelizations are completely non-canon. The latter does not belong in this discussion.
You seem to be forgetting that the Borg ship was pretty much right at Earth and not stopping despite the large Starfleet fleet flying around it. Since their goal was to stop the Borg from getting to Earth, they were not doing a very good job. Without Picard finding that weakness, the Borg would have made it to Earth and started to assault the planet as well as the fleet.
You seem to be forgetting that the Borg ship was pretty much right at Earth and not stopping despite the large Starfleet fleet flying around it. Since their goal was to stop the Borg from getting to Earth, they were not doing a very good job. Without Picard finding that weakness, the Borg would have made it to Earth and started to assault the planet as well as the fleet.
That's fine, the Borg can go ahead and assault the planet, much in the same way the Breen launched a surprise attack against a little-defended Earth in the latter days of the Dominion War. Starfleet won that battle by repelling the Breen. If a fleet of Breen warships couldn't completely decimate the over 500 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface and claim victory, one ship wouldn't be able to pull it off either.
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That's fine, the Borg can go ahead and assault the planet, much in the same way the Breen launched a surprise attack against a little-defended Earth in the latter days of the Dominion War. Starfleet won that battle by repelling the Breen. If a fleet of Breen warships couldn't completely decimate the over 500 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface and claim victory, one ship wouldn't be able to pull it off either.
Trying to compare the Borg to the Breen is kind of silly. They are on completely different class levels. Breen ships are roughly equal to a Federation ship, a Borg cube is stronger than a Federation fleet (or at least can take a beating from a Federation fleet).
Plus the Borg and the Breen had different goals. The Breen was a hit and run raid, the Borg was an invasion.
Now did the Federation do better against the First Contact cube than they did against the Wolf 359 cube? Yes. But without someone working past Borg defenses (either by putting them to sleep or by figuring out a weak point that didn't seem like one), Earth would have been hit with an invasion force.
The sad thing is that the Borg were never meant to be a villian to fight. But Star Trek changed due to the assumption the audience are morons and need everything dumbed down into easy to chew bits.
The original Borg we see in BobW are really more of a story telling element than an actual entity to fight. The Borg were the ultimate hostile element of the unknown. A leader- home- and strctureless hive mind whose only purpose was to prevail and incorporate every part of technology in itself. That meant that technology, machines and firepower were not viable means to prevail through an Borg encounter. That's what TNG wanted to tell - force is not the answer. It required the human element to outwit the threat, not man built weapons to shoot them. "Assimilation" wasn't a thing either, the creation of Locutus was something unique. Borg actually bred in TNG.
Because the authors considered the audience stupid they needed to change the Borg entirely into ravaging space zombie-vampires with a unstatisfyable hunger for brains... erm assimilation, led by a sexy techno-dracullette. They were reduced to zombie cannon fodder, bascially and each and every game based on Star Trek used that theme, thus the idea was born that "we" could win by just shooting hard enough. This is one of the worst developments within the Star Trek franchise, in my opinion.
Just wanted to voice that, I realize that it doesn't help the thread in any way
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The sad thing is that the Borg were never meant to be a villian to fight. But Star Trek changed due to the assumption the audience are morons and need everything dumbed down into easy to chew bits.
The original Borg we see in BobW are really more of a story telling element than an actual entity to fight. The Borg were the ultimate hostile element of the unknown. A leader- home- and strctureless hive mind whose only purpose was to prevail and incorporate every part of technology in itself. That meant that technology, machines and firepower were not viable means to prevail through an Borg encounter. That's what TNG wanted to tell - force is not the answer. It required the human element to outwit the threat, not man built weapons to shoot them. "Assimilation" wasn't a thing either, the creation of Locutus was something unique. Borg actually bred in TNG.
Because the authors considered the audience stupid they needed to change the Borg entirely into ravaging space zombie-vampires with a unstatisfyable hunger for brains... erm assimilation, led by a sexy techno-dracullette. They were reduced to zombie cannon fodder, bascially and each and every game based on Star Trek used that theme, thus the idea was born that "we" could win by just shooting hard enough. This is one of the worst developments within the Star Trek franchise, in my opinion.
Just wanted to voice that, I realize that it doesn't help the thread in any way
Out of universe that is actually absolutely correct.
But in-universe they still designed stuff to try to fight back^^
I'm not as well versed as some with the whole Voyager show. but, I developed the notion that the Intrepid Class was a destroyer in the classic sense, Long-Range Fleet Escort that relies on it's fleet for support. The ship, as interpreted by game creators, has tactical ambitions; I could go on, but say, I am surprised to see it listed among the science ships, what's more that the T5 has a third science officer and not a universal or second tactical officer. It feels weird as a Science officers Science ship, when it seems like it would make a better escort. But it had to be classified as either Cruiser, Tactical, or Science and if it hadn't gone to sci-officers then they wouldn't have an iconic ship just the scraps or one-off's from the TV shows.
The truth is that while I disagree with the system that forces ships into a narrow definition, I also see that not every ship can be like Klingon Raiders, and multi-role ships like the Odyssey don't really work so well. Given our recent experience with so-called Galaxy Reboot (another ship that was wrongly transcribed) I don't think we can expect better.
Instead of this though let's all support a T5 Miranda. if there isn't a thread for it let's start one.
Update: I found a thread for this subject
For Disclosure purposes I run a sci-officer in a Nebula (Advanced Research Vessel?) though I keep a T5 LRSV close by in case I wake up in a mood.
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The infamous attack fighter scene. One scene in DS9 and everybody goes crazy
I personally do not consider Peregrines worthless by any means, though like the Defiant class I imagine them serving as interceptors for immobile Starbases. In ship-to-ship combat, the Peregrines in Sacrifice were meant to disrupt the enemy lines out of desperation. We see them either being ignored since the ruse was compromised early on) or one-shotted since they could never hope to deflect a full grown Starship's weapon systems. We see presumably one Galor going down due to a critical hit strafig run - that's a mechanic I would approve as well. Call them, five Peregrines warp in, do a strafing run on a target (causing disable effects) and warp out again - they simply have no staying power.
The Runabouts acting as point defense for the Odyssey is understandable. I'm okay with point defense shuttles and further Runabouts are "Shuttles plus plus" - although we see them not really helping once the combat begins, not only because the Dominion knew the Oddysseys shield configuration (or their polaron weapons were so alien that shields weren't designed against those, I can't remember).
We know nothing about the Scorpions, really. Only that they were there and fit inside a living room
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The Borg Cube hadn't found a way to cancel out the advantages of the swarming Starfleet armada in First Contact. Starfleet was taking losses, but was still in a superior condition overall to seize control and gain a victory. Even without Picard's magic knowledge, the Cube would eventually become overwhelmed. There were still a great number of functioning, firing ships.
The Sovereign-class was also designed to fight the Borg. I'm not 100% positive if the Prometheus is also solely a Borg-fighting ship.
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Cant disagree on any of that... point is "some fighter like stuff was there".
There were also that fighter ships on the academy in that Wesley Crusher Episode btw.
I personally (although I know I probably alone on that) would like to see that whole Hangar stuff extended not reduced.
We are furred into the admiral rule, right? So I thing it should focus more on frigate type of ships not as a "ship launched from hangar" more as a "ships called in/accompanying" our characters "flagships".
Fighter would be more of an "optional" thing to that. They could add Mirnadas, Defiants ... even may be the TOS Connie as pet ships. And for those who do not want pets the "Hangar" slot should have an optional use like... well putting one of those c-store consoles there. Or something more powerful. Kind of a multipurpose slot that can launch pets.
Not in canon, which is what we are talking about. In canon, only the Defiant is known to be designed to fight the Borg. The Prometheus is a long range tactical ship. There's nothing to indicate that the Sovereign was designed with anything special in mind. She's obviously more heavily armed than a Galaxy class, but was likely designed to do the same sort of missions.
Outside of canon, the Sovereign, Defiant and Prometheus were designed in response to the Borg. The Akira and other ships in First Contact depend on which source of non-canon you go with. And if you want to talk official novels, the Vesta wasn't designed to fight the Borg but it was one of the few ships that could do so in the Destiny novels (without being armed with transphasic torpedoes).
That doesn't work against the borg. They adapt and re-assimilate.
How would they adapt to that?
And there is nothing about that worth "assimilating".
Also: That being the PLAN behind it still does not mean it would work. The Defiant was the attempt to face an enemy against whom the federation didn't have even the SLIGHTEST chance during the first confrontation on the battlefield. They tried to make the best of what they could think of doing against the Borg.
With the "adapt and reasiimilate" argument you counter ANYTHING made up to fight the Borg. With that mind set surrender would be the only option.
The same way they adapted to everything in the show. One or two successes for Starfleet, then they adapted.
That's the whole point of the Borg as presented in TNG. It's what made them scary. It's what made Wolf 359 happen.
It's gimmicky writing but it's how they worked in the plots.
I'm not questioning that this is how the Borg work.
But that does not resolve the two issues with your statement.
Since the Borg adapt in fact to everything they CAN adapt to anything whats the conclusion to that for star fleet in your Book? Doing nothing?
It was a factor that the Borg WOULD return one day or another, so how to prepare for that?
And I can answer to ANYTHING you respond to that with your own quote: They adapt.
So since they had to do SOMETHING they tried the best they could. And the only known attempt in doing so is called "the Defiant". As a base for swarm tactics. Again: Nobody said this would with work with certainty. Its just what the attempt is about.
Also; still: Its a strategy that might work against the Borgs usual approach and the question is HOW to adapt to that.
A cube is still a Cube = one big ugly ship, a Defiant is still hard to hit. The Borg targeting is probably as good as it gets, since its pretty inefficient to NOT have the best possible targeting; so how adept?
May be instead of that one all ship erasing beam using less efficient beams with lower firerate. That would help other ships to survive, still a win.
You simply can't adept to everything. Not even the Borg can. Not even in TNG. May be they find a way to adapt to that, may be not.
What episode was that said in?
There's a series of options.
1- Use technology from the future to overpower the Borg of today.
2- Infect them with a virus that erodes the collective hive mind and leaves them alone as individuals, weakening their ability to properly assimilate.
3- Team up with their creators the Caeliar and utterly destroy their presence in the entire galaxy throughout time, forcing them to GTFO the Milky Way and go be some other galaxy's problem.
That's Voyager. TNG. And Destiny.
Pick your poison. None of those options involved sending small squadrons of defiants at cubes to attack.
Annika > Quad Cannons.
Yeah, they absolutely adapt to technology. So stop trying to overpower them.
Connected to the collective. So it's more than just a cube.
They don't have to adapt to everything. They just have to adapt to yet another full assault of firepower from the Federation, which has failed repeatedly. Hell in First Contact they "adapted" by going back in time.
Obviuosly we are talking about different things.
Because I am speaking about Starfleets preparation between Wolf 359 and the first contact battle, and none of those Options were available there.
That topic is WHAT THEY DID in that time to prepare and WHAT THEY HOPED would work, not what actually would help.
Beside MAY BE time travel which would violate some core directives of the federation and I'm really not going into a discussion about how the federation could get future tech without having a future if the Borg invade.
Also they simply didn't DO that.
????? What is that supposed to say?
Since none of you examples above were available at this time... That means doing nothing.
To be honest... thats what they did, the Defiant project was canceled and First Contact showed that they didn't really have anything offer instead (beside Picards inside knowledge, which is something they didn't foresee)
In sense of tactics its just that.1 Object in Space. I don't know what your argument is supposed to be here.
And? Again... where is your argument here? Yes thats a way of adapting... and?
I really really don't get your point.
All three of those options were there.
The virus happened in TNG.
The Caeliar they didn't discover until later, but Destiny demonstrates that the actual contact was made back in Archer's time.
And time travel has always been an option.
A few things:
1- Annika and her parents were far more on the right track than the Defiant program was.
2- Borg expertise was there to be had.
3- Thinking about the problem outside of "bigger boom" is probably the best approach. And as it turned out, was the best approach.
The Defiant project, people keep clinging to this way the ship was introduced in DS9. But they don't tell the whole story of the episode. It was a failure. Sisko and O'Brien had to team up to work out the problems with the ship so that it could get use as a scout ship from the DS9 homebase and be useful in the Dominion conflict. As a borg response, it didn't pass muster.
My point is really simple. You see it time and time again with the Borg. You get two to five shots then they adapt their shields and that is that. So the idea of a whole squadron of Defiants as an effective response to the Borg? Not going to work. They get some shots in. The collective adapts. And now they're just targets.
I'm working under the assumption that Starfleet is actually smart and can counter-adapt as well. Which leads us to two options:
1) One side adapts to the other side, which cannot counter-adapt;
or
2) Both sides adapt to a stalemate (each side's advantages cancel out), in which case greater numbers has a higher chance of overwhelming the target.
Either way, Starfleet is in a superior position in First Contact.
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They were better prepared then at Wolf 359 but superior?
Without Picards Cheat code they would have horribly lost....
You're confusing his argument. He's saying a wing of Defiants would have actually won against a Borg invasion, but that the ship was designed to fight the Borg with certain tactics. A wing of Defiants wouldn't have done any better than the fleet in First Contact did.
Wolf 359 was also a "Oh *****, we gotta scramble everything we have!" scenario as well; except there were little tactics developed to fight the Borg. See DS9: "Emissary" for how Starfleet fought in Wolf 359: sending in small waves of ships, only to be decimated.
In First Contact, they were better prepared, although apparently caught off guard. This time around, they had weapons and ships designed to fight the Borg and also designed to perform as part of a fleet.
We don't know that, and furthermore that is a personal opinion and not a logical derivation.
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Ahh... we do know that.
I see no room for interpretation for anything but the federation getting eaten for breakfast before the ENT-E arrived, so if no other miracle but Picards Cheat happened they would have clearly lost.
Thats what we saw on screen and if you see room for anything else, the screenplay and the novelization back me up.
Not quite as outclassed as they were at Wolf 359, but still not in a good position to do anything to stop the Borg.
ok, now the people in this thread haven't even watched BOBW. there was a ton of talk, and action scenes were this was exactly what the D was doing when fighting the cube. this is all starfleet had ready by wolf 359, in its most basic form.
of course a single defiant was a drop in the bucket and made no difference, it wasn't backed up by 100 more, thats the whole point. its nothing special, and it being an anti borg ship is irreverent when theres only 1.
heres a handy checklist you can check any ship by to see if its actually built to specifically counter the borg
- its not a large general purpose cruiser
- its not a mid sized general purpose cruiser
- its a small and thus inexpensive, swarmable, and expendable
- its got an almost total focus on firepower and nothing else
if it fits this exact description, its an anti borg ship. the prometheus is highly specialized, but not as an anti borg ship. it seems like an anti squadron interceptor. or a ship that can take on another ship normally out of its weight class but wile separated can overwhelm.
there are also antiborg countermeasures and tactics, but every single ship can use those, or be retrofitted with them. thats the advanced frequency modulation, regenerative shields, quantum torps, etc. all the ships by first contact had them, and thats why the battle was going much better then wolf 359 had.
Starfleet can do that. Over a much longer period of time. The borg make that adaptation in the span of one combat encounter. That's what we see on the shows everytime and why we all run scared from the borg. The biggest advantage Starfleet had over the borg was never actually exploited. They move like slugs. Literally just kind of franken-walk from place to place. Whereas most federation species can walk, nay run, just a bit quicker.
Again, where is your proof that they are "clearly losing"?
The only indications are the visual effects of the fleet fighting the Cube, and the subspace radio transmissions received by the Enterprise before they joined the fight. The latter is inconclusive, since they could be taking losses in the initial time of the assault, but the later footage of the actual battle shows a great many Starfleet ships still intact, unhampered by tractor beams, and still moving and firing as normal. See the Akira, Nebula, Steamrunner, etc etc ships that were undamaged and launched weapons when Picard gave the order. Those ships didn't magically regenerate, and there are a great deal of undamaged ships. Starfleet hadn't lost the battle prior to, or during, Picard's intervention.
That is what I saw on screen; Picard's knowledge overcoming Borg adaptation, which the Borg could not counter to. My point is proven.
Screenplays are apocryphal at best, and novelizations are completely non-canon. The latter does not belong in this discussion.
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Actually... since we are discussing canon.... its an "anti Borg ship" if it was called an anti borg ship on screen. Which still only applies to the Defaint^^
For the Prometheus: You COULD argue, as a speculation, the in the MVA mode the Prometheus heavily relays on swarm tactics, too.
It would make sense that it was build with a similar mind set then the Defiant. And since this was the second of the 2 Federation warships we know about it would be reasonable to assume it was build to fight borg too. Again, as speculation.
I personally really doubt that they got the Prometheus up to prototype level if its build if it was build for the Dominion war, the planing must have started earlier to be ready when we saw her.
Voyager wasn't a warship by any means. Although she had teeth, she wasn't bred for war (unlike the Defiant).
The user based dynamic you speak of has already been suggested by other people in the Galaxy threadnought - buy ship stats and use whatever costume you want. Unfortunately, Cryptic makes its money off of people who buy ships purely for aesthetic look.
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That's fine, the Borg can go ahead and assault the planet, much in the same way the Breen launched a surprise attack against a little-defended Earth in the latter days of the Dominion War. Starfleet won that battle by repelling the Breen. If a fleet of Breen warships couldn't completely decimate the over 500 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface and claim victory, one ship wouldn't be able to pull it off either.
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Trying to compare the Borg to the Breen is kind of silly. They are on completely different class levels. Breen ships are roughly equal to a Federation ship, a Borg cube is stronger than a Federation fleet (or at least can take a beating from a Federation fleet).
Plus the Borg and the Breen had different goals. The Breen was a hit and run raid, the Borg was an invasion.
Now did the Federation do better against the First Contact cube than they did against the Wolf 359 cube? Yes. But without someone working past Borg defenses (either by putting them to sleep or by figuring out a weak point that didn't seem like one), Earth would have been hit with an invasion force.
The original Borg we see in BobW are really more of a story telling element than an actual entity to fight. The Borg were the ultimate hostile element of the unknown. A leader- home- and strctureless hive mind whose only purpose was to prevail and incorporate every part of technology in itself. That meant that technology, machines and firepower were not viable means to prevail through an Borg encounter. That's what TNG wanted to tell - force is not the answer. It required the human element to outwit the threat, not man built weapons to shoot them. "Assimilation" wasn't a thing either, the creation of Locutus was something unique. Borg actually bred in TNG.
Because the authors considered the audience stupid they needed to change the Borg entirely into ravaging space zombie-vampires with a unstatisfyable hunger for brains... erm assimilation, led by a sexy techno-dracullette. They were reduced to zombie cannon fodder, bascially and each and every game based on Star Trek used that theme, thus the idea was born that "we" could win by just shooting hard enough. This is one of the worst developments within the Star Trek franchise, in my opinion.
Just wanted to voice that, I realize that it doesn't help the thread in any way
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Out of universe that is actually absolutely correct.
But in-universe they still designed stuff to try to fight back^^
The truth is that while I disagree with the system that forces ships into a narrow definition, I also see that not every ship can be like Klingon Raiders, and multi-role ships like the Odyssey don't really work so well. Given our recent experience with so-called Galaxy Reboot (another ship that was wrongly transcribed) I don't think we can expect better.
Instead of this though let's all support a T5 Miranda. if there isn't a thread for it let's start one.
Update: I found a thread for this subject
For Disclosure purposes I run a sci-officer in a Nebula (Advanced Research Vessel?) though I keep a T5 LRSV close by in case I wake up in a mood.