So you're saying Tactical ships and Science ships should be rolled into one, and then there's Eng alone?:D
Well a few things about that Input:
The NUMBER of weapons say little about the actual power of those weapons.
So a ship with 2 arrays can still be stronger then one with 20.
Also: I kind of question that information. Memory Alpha (remember that MA might be very accurate about canon but as a Wiki TRIBBLE can be posted there,too. And not everything someone posts there is automatically canon.) or not, in actual CANON the Defiant did not have cannons AT ALL.
What we call "quad cannons" are beams that had to be fired as impulses to prevent overcharging (The Search part 1 DS9 03X01. People should watch that episode, since it contains A LOT OF details about the Defiant). The weapons itself is nothing different then the usual phaser. Its just to big for the ship.
I see that people are still dragging this off topic, the mod has warned people allready, lets keep this topic on track, I have said all i think needs saying in my previous posts.
Yeah, but there's three other threads about this topic. So I'm not sure I myself can take the topic all that seriously.
But you are posting in all of them at the same time. Congratulations
While I don't take things super serious, I do enjoy discussing Star Trek with my fellow STO players.
So think of it like this:
- I don't think we'll ever see any action taken on any of the ideas presented in each of the threads.
- It makes me giggle thinking of people lobbying for a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF or tactical enhancements on the Intrepid, a ship clearly locked in by Cryptic since launch day as a science ship.
- I love talking about the shows and the way things happened on screen.
- I have an opportunity to make jokes about adding a second Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF to the Defiant because of how much hatred people have for the Ensign Tactical seat on that ship.
- People made such a fuss about the Galaxy X coming from a timeline where it was at war with the Klingons so it has to be the Fed answer for the Scimitar, that I'm really just feeling out the whole Olympic comes from the same timeline thought. There's still the Warship Voyager from the skewed mythology future episode that could be grasped. Hey, let's do that.
So ok, forget EVERYTHING I said about the Olympic.
I think we're onto something. Based on how the Doctor reacted to the way the ship was presented, I think my ideas are only scratching the surface of what Cryptic could do here.
While I don't take things super serious, I do enjoy discussing Star Trek with my fellow STO players.
So think of it like this:
- I don't think we'll ever see any action taken on any of the ideas presented in each of the threads.
- It makes me giggle thinking of people lobbying for a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF or tactical enhancements on the Intrepid, a ship clearly locked in by Cryptic since launch day as a science ship.
- I love talking about the shows and the way things happened on screen.
- I have an opportunity to make jokes about adding a second Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF to the Defiant because of how much hatred people have for the Ensign Tactical seat on that ship.
- People made such a fuss about the Galaxy X coming from a timeline where it was at war with the Klingons so it has to be the Fed answer for the Scimitar, that I'm really just feeling out the whole Olympic comes from the same timeline thought.
I see that similar...
There's still the Warship Voyager from the skewed mythology future episode that could be grasped. Hey, let's do that.
So ok, forget EVERYTHING I said about the Olympic.
I think we're onto something. Based on how the Doctor reacted to the way the ship was presented, I think my ideas are only scratching the surface of what Cryptic could do here.
Warship Voyager!
Make it happen!
#rebootyaluv
I hope this Plasmonic leech universal works on other ships too, I really want to use it on my Deep Space nine mobile station.
If I want information about the Defiant, I'll pull out my DS9 Tech Manual, which is Canon material as it was written by the creators, writers, and technical staff for the show.
As for the Intrepid, there is a tech manual out there for it, but it was never finished.
For those who want to discuss how many phaser arrays each ship had, its not hard to understand the numbers. They had to make sure that a majority of the blind spots would be covered.
Galaxy: didnt need very many as the design allowed for fewer, and larger, strips to be used.
Defiant: Warship ('nuff said)
Intrepid: Speed, Speed, Speed, and a LOT of blind spots when you break the design down, especially with the variable geometry nacelles (which were only a test to bypass the speed restriction of Warp 5 imposed by Star Fleet after it was shown that Warp travel was damaging the line between normal space and subspace. Later designs, and major modifications on others, were worked on as well.
Is it a Tactical ship? In short, No.
It was meant as a originally meant as a patrol, interceptor, harasser, get-to-this-spot-asap type of ship with enough maneuverability to go places most other ships couldn't. Throughout the Voyager Series, the ship and crew was redefined multiple times, but always came back to Star Fleets core Ethos of Exploration, Scientific Discovery, and meeting new Species/Civilizations.
Upon its return, the ship wasn't the same. It had gone from a short term patrol ship to the Long Range Recon vessel we have in STO. The ships we fly now were probably based upon what Voyager brought back, not the original intention of the design.
Now, as the Defiant was far more nimble than Voyager, it couldn't/wouldn't be allowed to chase after the Maquis for 2 major reasons.
1. Plot. The writers for ST couldn't let their toy be tied up with another series when they already had plans for it in DS9.
2. DS9 was its assigned territory. With the threat of the Dominion, it was needed there as a first line of Defense against a major assault/incursion.
Just as a side note: A majority of the vessels used during the Dominion War were mostly empty hulls. Spartan living quarters, sickbays, command and control systems, weapons and projectile storage, and other bare necessities needed to make the vessel combat ready were put in. Nothing Else. The ships that survived saw a complete fitting with everything usual for its class.
Star Trek Battles: For those who want to Play Star Trek Online as it WAS MEANT TO BE!!!
If I want information about the Defiant, I'll pull out my DS9 Tech Manual, which is Canon material as it was written by the creators, writers, and technical staff for the show.
ahhhm.... no.
Canon: Onscreen
Not onscreen: not canon. Even if it was written by Roddenberry himself. No matter how licensed.
The NUMBER of weapons say little about the actual power of those weapons.
So a ship with 2 arrays can still be stronger then one with 20.
Also: I kind of question that information. Memory Alpha (remember that MA might be very accurate about canon but as a Wiki TRIBBLE can be posted there,too. And not everything someone posts there is automatically canon.) or not, in actual CANON the Defiant did not have cannons AT ALL.
What we call "quad cannons" are beams that had to be fired as impulses to prevent overcharging (The Search part 1 DS9 03X01. People should watch that episode, since it contains A LOT OF details about the Defiant). The weapons itself is nothing different then the usual phaser. Its just to big for the ship.
Intrepid's phaser arrays are described as "comparable" to that of the Galaxy, even though no hard canon numbers are given, fueled by greater power generation from dual core necessary for class 9 warp drive's 9.975 sustained speed. Make what you will of it.;)
ahhhm.... no.
Canon: Onscreen
Not onscreen: not canon. Even if it was written by Roddenberry himself. No matter how licensed.
"Only the reference books (tech manual, encyclopedia, etc...) and two books by Jeri Taylor are considered canon outside the TV show and movies." - Harry Lang, Senior Director of Viacom Consumer Products Interactive division, posts on*StarTrek.com*forum, January 2005."
If it was a novel, comic, or magazine, I would agree with you. But these are the reference materials that Roddenberry himself considered the Background of TNG and DS9.
Unless Cryptic/CBS has it posted somewhere else that contradicts what their Senior Director has said, I will continue to use the Tech Manuals as Canon material.
(An updated version for ship layouts during/after the Dominion War would make it easier than relying on Memory-Alpha/Beta.)
I'll see if I can dig up the Voyager Tech Manual and see how it compares to Memory Alpha/Beta when I get home.
Star Trek Battles: For those who want to Play Star Trek Online as it WAS MEANT TO BE!!!
So after thinking about a while I do purpose a thought .
All ships should have universal boff slots . Noe it would vary based on what tier it was . But heres the twist . The ships would gain a book.us for its type.
For example
A t1 Connie would get three uni boff slots plus it would get a bonus if you slotted a high ranking eng . Like +5 to hull repair
A t5 Galaxy-r would get +10 to hull repair while a t5 Defiant would get +10 to weapons and +5 to engines if you slotted a commander and a lt cmder in to the boff slots .
Pretty sure they were, as mentioned in some of the promotional buzz with First Contact.
nowhere in the movie does it state they were designed to fight the borg. in the memory alpha article for the saber class it just states:
"The # of new ship designs in Star Trek: First Contact was actually only 4, the Sabre, Steamrunner, Norway and of course the Akira. The goal with all of those ships was to make them look completely different from the Enterprise as we were introducing the E in that film and they didn't want people going, 'wait, which one's the Enterprise?' "
so basically, they just wanted to introduce a bunch of new ships instead of reusing DS9/TNG ships to make the Sovvy ent-E more distinguishable.
The Akira was heavy cruiser/carrier built for the dominion war.
Well that Akira thing is simple:
The designer did build it with that Idea of being a "super duper mary sue carrier torpedo boat" in mind.
But since she was never shown doing ANY of that its not Canon.
Love how you go to a non-canon website.......which means nothing when it comes to canon. The only ship on-screen stated to be an anti-Borg warship was the Defiant, and many sources say the Sovereign as well (though it is also never stated in an episode or movie.)
Love how you go to a non-canon website.......which means nothing when it comes to canon. The only ship on-screen stated to be an anti-Borg warship was the Defiant, and many sources say the Sovereign as well (though it is also never stated in an episode or movie.)
Actually ex astris scientia is pretty good website and the article he links is accurate.
The article does not state his conclusion, its about the offscreen design history. That is not canon until its shown.
Simple example: The Sovereign was designed with the possibility of saucer separation in case they needed the ship to do that in a future movie.
Since the ship never DID that it is not canon it has saucer separation (its not canon that she does NOT have it either, still open for interpretation...)
or having any kind of more tactical focus then the Galaxy.
They equipped quantum torpedoes instead of photon, and the families were no longer on board. Both of those details demonstrates a more tactical focus than the Galaxy. Only a SLIGHTLY more tactical focus, but it is a tiny detail that demonstrates that the E was running a different kind of mission than the D.
The Sovereign, Steamrunner, Norway, Sabre, and Akira classes were all constructed as Borg fighters.
these designs most likely are a response to a series of cardasian, tholian and tzenkethi wars fought from the 2340s all the way up to the start of DS9. there was no long period of peace lasting up to the dominion war, quite the opposite. its going to take years to develop and build fleets of these ships, a lot more time then there was between BoBW and FC. the defiant is the only believable, and canon ship to be built as a direct response to that borg attack.
the intrepid is a new and advanced general purpose light cruiser. this means its pretty heavily armed, all starfleet classes are. some slightly more so then average, like the sovereign, defiant and akira
They equipped quantum torpedoes instead of photon, and the families were no longer on board. Both of those details demonstrates a more tactical focus than the Galaxy.
The Quantum Torpedos are the result of technical progression.
The Galaxy had the most advanced weaponry at her time, too. So did the Constitution and the Excelsior. (<---and we now the Lakota was equipped with Quantum torpedoes too, that doenst retro change the Excelsior to a ship with with a tactical focus in the beginning)
And the the family on board thing was something we only saw on the Galaxy (and the Saratoga) as far as I know anyway. (although we can't even be sure they were not there, we did not see awfully lot of that ship).
Might be connected with the mission the ship is on more then the ships construction.
Also, cycling to the Topic: The Voyager (which is seemingly and hopefully proven NOT to be a tactical ship in the thread now) did not have families when it launched. Those only came through its unique situation.
That goes in canon for the Defiant project ONLY, and that was canceled (and obviously relaunched during the Dominion war)
Sorry, its 3 in the morning here, I wasnt very clear in my post.
I meant not the ships directly, but the advanced technology. I think those ships were the first to receive better equipment.
Still they blew up like (insert word here)
At least the producers must have had some reasons to include the new 4 in First Contact among a few oder ships. They could have just copy and paste the older ones a few times to create the fleet.
It was maybe a testrun to see how advanced ships work against Borg.
Sorry, its 3 in the morning here, I wasnt very clear in my post.
I meant not the ships directly, but the advanced technology. I think those ships were the first to receive better equipment.
Still they blew up like (insert word here)
At least the producers must have had some reasons to include the new 4 in First Contact among a few oder ships. They could have just copy and paste the older ones a few times to create the fleet.
It was maybe a testrun to see how advanced ships work against Borg.
The reason why the producers showed new ships is simply: The movie was supposed to look shiny. Its a visual medium.
And "looking good" (or at least attempting to) is the real reasoning behind every ship design... no movie producer goes like "Yeah this looks ugly as sh*** but much more realistic then this one, so well go with it".
Wich is why the Odysee will never make it into a movie....
However. It is reasonable to assume (although not canon^^) that every development, including those helping to fight the borg, went into every new ship.
But here is the thing:
I REALLY REALLY doubt that any on those new ships were "new" on that term. Including the Sovereign.
In seem to believe that in star trek someone says "Hey lets build a new ship" and 2 weeks later 54 of them leave dry-docks (see the Dyson ships in STO... "hey we encountered Dyson tech 3 month ago, so now we have a whole shipline based on that)
Applying any logic to it, it would take FAR FAR longer for the federation cruiser line. I thing the Sovereign was already planned, and may be the Prototype was already in production, long before they even met the Borg. It must have taken at least 10 years from starting the first drafts to the first working prototype.
Same for the Akira (although: fun theory of mine; they used the old NX designs to get a new starship ready much faster^^)
Other then that we only had the centaur as new ship in first contact and that one... well I didn't put much thought into this one. Its smaller = shorter construction period)
For that reason the Defiants construction time isn't a good measurement, too, btw. The Defiant is 3 decks, compared to the cruiser classes its hardly even a ship, more like a spaceboat.
So planning and building that one goes MUCH faster.
Comments
Well a few things about that Input:
The NUMBER of weapons say little about the actual power of those weapons.
So a ship with 2 arrays can still be stronger then one with 20.
Also: I kind of question that information. Memory Alpha (remember that MA might be very accurate about canon but as a Wiki TRIBBLE can be posted there,too. And not everything someone posts there is automatically canon.) or not, in actual CANON the Defiant did not have cannons AT ALL.
What we call "quad cannons" are beams that had to be fired as impulses to prevent overcharging (The Search part 1 DS9 03X01. People should watch that episode, since it contains A LOT OF details about the Defiant). The weapons itself is nothing different then the usual phaser. Its just to big for the ship.
Yeah, but there's three other threads about this topic. So I'm not sure I myself can take the topic all that seriously.
But you are posting in all of them at the same time. Congratulations
While I don't take things super serious, I do enjoy discussing Star Trek with my fellow STO players.
So think of it like this:
- I don't think we'll ever see any action taken on any of the ideas presented in each of the threads.
- It makes me giggle thinking of people lobbying for a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF or tactical enhancements on the Intrepid, a ship clearly locked in by Cryptic since launch day as a science ship.
- I love talking about the shows and the way things happened on screen.
- I have an opportunity to make jokes about adding a second Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF to the Defiant because of how much hatred people have for the Ensign Tactical seat on that ship.
- People made such a fuss about the Galaxy X coming from a timeline where it was at war with the Klingons so it has to be the Fed answer for the Scimitar, that I'm really just feeling out the whole Olympic comes from the same timeline thought. There's still the Warship Voyager from the skewed mythology future episode that could be grasped. Hey, let's do that.
So ok, forget EVERYTHING I said about the Olympic.
Let's make the WARSHIP Voyager.
5/2 weapons.
Sensor Analysis AND can equip DHCs.
Commander Universal. Lt. Commander Tactical.
5 tactical consoles
1 science consoles
4 Engi Consoles
Comes with Plasmonic Leech Universal Console
I think we're onto something. Based on how the Doctor reacted to the way the ship was presented, I think my ideas are only scratching the surface of what Cryptic could do here.
Warship Voyager!
Make it happen!
#rebootyaluv
I see that similar...
I hope this Plasmonic leech universal works on other ships too, I really want to use it on my Deep Space nine mobile station.
As for the Intrepid, there is a tech manual out there for it, but it was never finished.
For those who want to discuss how many phaser arrays each ship had, its not hard to understand the numbers. They had to make sure that a majority of the blind spots would be covered.
Galaxy: didnt need very many as the design allowed for fewer, and larger, strips to be used.
Defiant: Warship ('nuff said)
Intrepid: Speed, Speed, Speed, and a LOT of blind spots when you break the design down, especially with the variable geometry nacelles (which were only a test to bypass the speed restriction of Warp 5 imposed by Star Fleet after it was shown that Warp travel was damaging the line between normal space and subspace. Later designs, and major modifications on others, were worked on as well.
Is it a Tactical ship? In short, No.
It was meant as a originally meant as a patrol, interceptor, harasser, get-to-this-spot-asap type of ship with enough maneuverability to go places most other ships couldn't. Throughout the Voyager Series, the ship and crew was redefined multiple times, but always came back to Star Fleets core Ethos of Exploration, Scientific Discovery, and meeting new Species/Civilizations.
Upon its return, the ship wasn't the same. It had gone from a short term patrol ship to the Long Range Recon vessel we have in STO. The ships we fly now were probably based upon what Voyager brought back, not the original intention of the design.
Now, as the Defiant was far more nimble than Voyager, it couldn't/wouldn't be allowed to chase after the Maquis for 2 major reasons.
1. Plot. The writers for ST couldn't let their toy be tied up with another series when they already had plans for it in DS9.
2. DS9 was its assigned territory. With the threat of the Dominion, it was needed there as a first line of Defense against a major assault/incursion.
Just as a side note: A majority of the vessels used during the Dominion War were mostly empty hulls. Spartan living quarters, sickbays, command and control systems, weapons and projectile storage, and other bare necessities needed to make the vessel combat ready were put in. Nothing Else. The ships that survived saw a complete fitting with everything usual for its class.
Our Battles
ahhhm.... no.
Canon: Onscreen
Not onscreen: not canon. Even if it was written by Roddenberry himself. No matter how licensed.
Intrepid's phaser arrays are described as "comparable" to that of the Galaxy, even though no hard canon numbers are given, fueled by greater power generation from dual core necessary for class 9 warp drive's 9.975 sustained speed. Make what you will of it.;)
"Only the reference books (tech manual, encyclopedia, etc...) and two books by Jeri Taylor are considered canon outside the TV show and movies." - Harry Lang, Senior Director of Viacom Consumer Products Interactive division, posts on*StarTrek.com*forum, January 2005."
If it was a novel, comic, or magazine, I would agree with you. But these are the reference materials that Roddenberry himself considered the Background of TNG and DS9.
Unless Cryptic/CBS has it posted somewhere else that contradicts what their Senior Director has said, I will continue to use the Tech Manuals as Canon material.
(An updated version for ship layouts during/after the Dominion War would make it easier than relying on Memory-Alpha/Beta.)
I'll see if I can dig up the Voyager Tech Manual and see how it compares to Memory Alpha/Beta when I get home.
Our Battles
Oh most definitely.
other than the Sovereign, none of those were canonly created to fight the borg.
Pretty sure they were, as mentioned in some of the promotional buzz with First Contact.
All ships should have universal boff slots . Noe it would vary based on what tier it was . But heres the twist . The ships would gain a book.us for its type.
For example
A t1 Connie would get three uni boff slots plus it would get a bonus if you slotted a high ranking eng . Like +5 to hull repair
A t5 Galaxy-r would get +10 to hull repair while a t5 Defiant would get +10 to weapons and +5 to engines if you slotted a commander and a lt cmder in to the boff slots .
nowhere in the movie does it state they were designed to fight the borg. in the memory alpha article for the saber class it just states:
"The # of new ship designs in Star Trek: First Contact was actually only 4, the Sabre, Steamrunner, Norway and of course the Akira. The goal with all of those ships was to make them look completely different from the Enterprise as we were introducing the E in that film and they didn't want people going, 'wait, which one's the Enterprise?' "
so basically, they just wanted to introduce a bunch of new ships instead of reusing DS9/TNG ships to make the Sovvy ent-E more distinguishable.
Just because the ships showed up to fight the Borg meant they were designed specifically to fight the Borg.
Maybe not "directly" to fight the Borg, but to be more tactical for Borg encounters.
Well that Akira thing is simple:
The designer did build it with that Idea of being a "super duper mary sue carrier torpedo boat" in mind.
But since she was never shown doing ANY of that its not Canon.
This. Nothing indicates the Sovereign being build to fight the Borg... or having any kind of more tactical focus then the Galaxy.
That goes in canon for the Defiant project ONLY, and that was canceled (and obviously relaunched during the Dominion war)
Love how you go to a non-canon website.......which means nothing when it comes to canon. The only ship on-screen stated to be an anti-Borg warship was the Defiant, and many sources say the Sovereign as well (though it is also never stated in an episode or movie.)
Actually ex astris scientia is pretty good website and the article he links is accurate.
The article does not state his conclusion, its about the offscreen design history. That is not canon until its shown.
Simple example: The Sovereign was designed with the possibility of saucer separation in case they needed the ship to do that in a future movie.
Since the ship never DID that it is not canon it has saucer separation (its not canon that she does NOT have it either, still open for interpretation...)
They equipped quantum torpedoes instead of photon, and the families were no longer on board. Both of those details demonstrates a more tactical focus than the Galaxy. Only a SLIGHTLY more tactical focus, but it is a tiny detail that demonstrates that the E was running a different kind of mission than the D.
these designs most likely are a response to a series of cardasian, tholian and tzenkethi wars fought from the 2340s all the way up to the start of DS9. there was no long period of peace lasting up to the dominion war, quite the opposite. its going to take years to develop and build fleets of these ships, a lot more time then there was between BoBW and FC. the defiant is the only believable, and canon ship to be built as a direct response to that borg attack.
the intrepid is a new and advanced general purpose light cruiser. this means its pretty heavily armed, all starfleet classes are. some slightly more so then average, like the sovereign, defiant and akira
The Quantum Torpedos are the result of technical progression.
The Galaxy had the most advanced weaponry at her time, too. So did the Constitution and the Excelsior. (<---and we now the Lakota was equipped with Quantum torpedoes too, that doenst retro change the Excelsior to a ship with with a tactical focus in the beginning)
And the the family on board thing was something we only saw on the Galaxy (and the Saratoga) as far as I know anyway. (although we can't even be sure they were not there, we did not see awfully lot of that ship).
Might be connected with the mission the ship is on more then the ships construction.
Also, cycling to the Topic: The Voyager (which is seemingly and hopefully proven NOT to be a tactical ship in the thread now) did not have families when it launched. Those only came through its unique situation.
Sorry, its 3 in the morning here, I wasnt very clear in my post.
I meant not the ships directly, but the advanced technology. I think those ships were the first to receive better equipment.
Still they blew up like (insert word here)
At least the producers must have had some reasons to include the new 4 in First Contact among a few oder ships. They could have just copy and paste the older ones a few times to create the fleet.
It was maybe a testrun to see how advanced ships work against Borg.
The reason why the producers showed new ships is simply: The movie was supposed to look shiny. Its a visual medium.
And "looking good" (or at least attempting to) is the real reasoning behind every ship design... no movie producer goes like "Yeah this looks ugly as sh*** but much more realistic then this one, so well go with it".
Wich is why the Odysee will never make it into a movie....
However. It is reasonable to assume (although not canon^^) that every development, including those helping to fight the borg, went into every new ship.
But here is the thing:
I REALLY REALLY doubt that any on those new ships were "new" on that term. Including the Sovereign.
In seem to believe that in star trek someone says "Hey lets build a new ship" and 2 weeks later 54 of them leave dry-docks (see the Dyson ships in STO... "hey we encountered Dyson tech 3 month ago, so now we have a whole shipline based on that)
Applying any logic to it, it would take FAR FAR longer for the federation cruiser line. I thing the Sovereign was already planned, and may be the Prototype was already in production, long before they even met the Borg. It must have taken at least 10 years from starting the first drafts to the first working prototype.
Same for the Akira (although: fun theory of mine; they used the old NX designs to get a new starship ready much faster^^)
Other then that we only had the centaur as new ship in first contact and that one... well I didn't put much thought into this one. Its smaller = shorter construction period)
For that reason the Defiants construction time isn't a good measurement, too, btw. The Defiant is 3 decks, compared to the cruiser classes its hardly even a ship, more like a spaceboat.
So planning and building that one goes MUCH faster.