Damnit. Was hoping for a new flight deck cruiser. Still, good that the KDF has finally joined the 5 forward gun club, even if it is a copy paste of the Avenger.
The known issue about the KDF uniforms is way overdue to be fixed. It's plagued my main since the launch of season 6; four of my seven uniforms are unusable and unmodifiable.
I ... there is no say to not say this ... dont like when someone tried to say two opposite things, if Cloak is not a worthwhile ability then its not and then the Cloak console needs to be revised in this new situation, one cannot say "a Cloak? thats 2000 Zen" and on the other say "Cloak? Meh, worthless" and if Cloak is worthless to not even justify a device slot then I ask why its a console? And we cannot play around and pretend the Galaxy Dreadnought doesnt exist that comes with a build-in ability that is combat worth.
This is an excellent point. Let's ignore the whole "fed vs kdf" balance notion for a while and examine this. What particular brand of doublethink in the Cryptic offices has Gorn saying "Cloak is worthless" and "Cloak is worth the same cost to your ship as this Cool New Thing I just spent half the dev blog and several pictures talking about," in the same breath?
This is an excellent point. Let's ignore the whole "fed vs kdf" balance notion for a while and examine this. What particular brand of doublethink in the Cryptic offices has Gorn saying "Cloak is worthless" and "Cloak is worth the same cost to your ship as this Cool New Thing I just spent half the dev blog and several pictures talking about," in the same breath?
It's thinking about whatever is sure to make them their money. Release a great ship for one side, then re-release a superior version for the other side. It's an extremely dirty but well known trick in the more unscrupulous micro-transaction supported games. This is the kind of thing people feared when PWE bought Cryptic. Lockboxes and their powerful contents are nothing, these kinds of balance discrepancies for profit will destroy the game.
Hmm, hey killdozer... As the theme tonight seems to be about educating people, here's a lesson for everyone as well.
"...to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition.., and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Sounds very much like your literary maneuver of refusing to compare the Avenger and Mogh together, despite the Devs themselves saying they are comparable and counterparts as such. Instead you argue the Mogh is like the Vesta, which isn't a remotely proper comparison and argument. Even the manner in which it is presented, it flawed, KDF would need a Science Vessel with identical stats minus the few advantages the Vesta would have over it, to make it even remotely sound.
So the lesson today, kids, is where ever Strawmen are found, KDF die-hards are sure to be around.
Teongray, I find your post petty and made without full understanding of my stance, especially considering that you decided to wait until after I stated my intentions to leave this thread to address me by name. I also want to note that were I not offended, I would be amused at your need to google a term thrown around by others before trying to test your perception of half of my stance to stick it to. The fact that you so readily need an insult to hurl at me that you'll reach into the toolboxes of others and try to make it fit instead of crafting an argument of your own speaks volumes about your willingness to approach a situation with a logical, open mind. Good job making sure you knew what something you wanted to use meant before you used it though. Thinking before you post is almost as good as reading before your post. Speaking of which...
For the third time tonight, I reiterate: I am a fed player. I have one KDF alt, it is at level 12 and a neglected doff slave who exists solely to mail my fed main contraband. I find myself agreeing with KDF players whose incessant whining I usually abhor because, for once, they're right. This is something they should have and something they should be better at, and feds need to get over it, because their ability to borrow the KDFs defining features of gameplay is a priveledge, not a right. I expect that, as you've previously displayed your willing tendency to not read my posts before confronting me publicly, I will have to remind you of that again.
I reiterate, the straw man here is you. The ship is purported by the same dev you quote to be based on a KDF exclusive ship class. The predecent has been set with the inclusion of the cloaking device fitted to our equivalent raptors from the very beginning- Fed ships can use normally KDF exclusive technology, albeit at a price.
The avenger did not need to exist. It was an excessive, opulent addition to a long history of spoiled, pandered to federation players at the expensive of developer time that would otherwise be spent on one of the other two frankly barren factions. They took the best battle cruiser, made it better, and gave it to the feds. Klingons were rightly mad considering the neglect, the devs realized they got caught, and quickly co-opted what was almost surely the model for a different, future kdf ship and copy pasted the stats in.
Do I think either the mogh or avenger should exist? No. If feds needed a battlecruiser, it probably should've been stuck in a lockbox, god knows they're running thin on ideas there. But if it is going to exist, you know who should get the better battle cruiser? The faction that actually has a lineage of battlecruisers. Why? Because the faction that has the lineage of science vessels has the best science vessels in the game.
That is balance.
I want you to read this next part very carefully, because you can't seem to wrap your mind around it.
The mogh and the avenger are not complimentary. They are not the Oddy and Bortas, they were not developed at the same time inteded to represent the same role for both factions. The avenger was the ship-version of the fed cloaking device. The feds being given a KDF exclusive at a small disadvantage. The mogh was a hastily thought up retroactive bandaid when the community rightfully pointed out the injustice behind the KDF waiting 2+ years for a ship, only to see a ship that was an updated-for-power-creep version of their best design in the whole class handed out to the other faction before they got anything similar at all. I'm not trying to distract from the numerical similarity, in my opinion, that's a blatant embarrassment that should last as a reminder to future developer projects to consider duly spending their time on each faction of paying customers. But in the end, the actual numbers are irrelevant. The ships should not be identical because they are not equivocal in their purpose for existence, and by disregarding that fact, it is in fact you who is applying what you dub a 'stawman argument'
Yes, the devs have said they have identical stats, because they got caught in the spotlight, had to admit it, and righted their wrong. No beef, devs. But seriously, stop giving everything a hangar bay and 5 fore slots and +100 base power insulators. More individual weapons, and more science powers. Debuff some weapon recharge times, stick a crit resist on science vessels, or make it scale positively with defense like susceptibility does with accuracy.
Back to trying to hammer my argument into your skull. Nowhere in gorns post does he say they are sister ships or counterparts. The only similarity they have is in their numerical stats. That is a strawman. They fill two different roles in their lineups, gorn says so in his post, I invite you to go back and actually read it. You are using misdirection here, a half truthed assumption, a heuristic, and a perceived technicality born of misunderstanding of the game basis at the very best.
The avenger is a sample of a "faction specific ship." He cites the precedence set by giving the feds kdf specific perks like the cloaking device-- that they come at a cost. If you want them sans cost, then play the faction that specializes in them.
But no, the roles each ship plays in its fleet is not the same. The avenger is a sample of a kdf ship type previously unavailable to feds. The mogh is the superior culmination of a ship type well established in the klingon faction just like the Vesta is.
You want a fair trade? Go ahead, lop off a hunk of our shield modifier. Make it .9, .85 even. Go crazy with your balance gun, I don't care. Reiterate how fed should have their factional tanking advantage over kdf, even when flying kdf ship classes.
But we get a Vesta with cannon subsystem targeting and 4 tac slots because we may not be the best scientists, but we sure can figure out how to make our guns work better on your ships.
That's the balance that's been set forth in the game so far, not handing out one of everything to everybody. Funny how people in your camp simultaneously berate the idea of participation trophies and then argue the same logic behind them. I do wonder how they even fit at that campfire considering the fact that they indeed are made of straw.
Congratulations if you actually made it this far down, this marks the first of my posts you've read entirely!
So I'm really confused, no one ever complained about the Tor'Kaht having a cloak, yet half the feds on the forum are complaining about the mogh because of some misguided view that the Mogh was supposed to be exactly like the avenger, which the avenger itself was based on copying KDF battlecruisers
KDF players are going to be playing the Mogh the same way they have been playing the Tor'Kaht. So what is the issue people? (By people I mean the same dozen or less people in the forums bringing up the same repetitive arguments) Honestly, the amount of people in the forums is so small the opinions wont make any difference in the developers choices.
So I'm really confused, no one ever complained about the Tor'Kaht having a cloak, yet half the feds on the forum are complaining about the mogh because of some misguided view that the Mogh was supposed to be exactly like the avenger, which the avenger itself was based on KDF battlecruisers
People are going to be playing the Mogh the same way they have been playing the Tor'Kaht, So what is the issue?
Because the Tor'kaht has strengths and drawbacks. Better A, worse B. It balances itself out. Advantages come with costs, in Tor'kaht's case gaining extra mobility, offense, and first-strike ability over the standard cruiser, but in exchange has a weakness weakness in the boff layout and weaker hull and eventually losing a cruiser command.
The Mogh/Avenger thing though (where I and many others disagree with Killdozer's assessment) is a place where we get a straight apples-to-apples comparison. Two ships, same cost, same layout, almost the same release timing, same everything except skin. We've had this scenario in the game several times before, parings such as the Sovereign vs T5 Vor'cha, or Ambassador vs Kamarag, or Patrol Escort vs Qin Raptor, where you have two identical ships, then one of them gives up one thing to gain something else. Trades, not always a 100% fair trade, but an attempt is made at balance.
In this case you stack the two next to each other, identical in every way except for one thing that X has that Y doesn't, and X didn't pay anything to get it. Whether the advantage of X is major or minor, its a freebie, not as an accident or modeling error or questionable trade, just pure bonus just because. Drop 1500 hull or 0.05 shields off the Mogh, just something to pay for that cloak, and 2/3 of this thread vanishes. Its not faction bias or the crying some egotists insecurely wish it was, its just a question of math.
The war continued on and on, raging between the Federation with their Avenger-class, and the Klingon Empire with their brand new Mogh-class. The battles were many, and fierce. Neither side wished to budge in their views against the other. Maybe these battles would simmer down, maybe they wouldn't.
But, one group was feeling far worse than any of the combatants in the battle:
The Ferengi.
They looked at the fighting going on, and then to their own fleet of unused, and more importantly, UNSOLD D'koras simply sitting in space, not gaining profit for them. There would always be those in the Federation and the Klingon Empire, even the Romulan Republic who would also desire a D'kora, but for the Federation and Klingons, that desire was much less than it had been in the past. Their newer ship designs made most of them no longer want to use a D'kora, as the new ships were simply superior enough for it not to matter.
Again they sighed, hoping that the Great River might soon flow their way again.
Moral of the story folks: Ya'll might whine and moan on either side about this or that, but BOTH the Avenger and the Mogh I feel completely obsolete the D'kora. Some have said that it's a bad, slippery slope to have a ship simply be better than an 'equal' ship on another faction, but you know what's worse?
Having a ship for one or more factions completely obsolete a LOCKBOX ship. I know not everyone agrees with the lockbox deal, but those are generally considered absolute top of the line in most cases, and if they start obsoleting those kinds of ships, that will only mean they might release something even more extreme to compensate.
Obviously any point can be argued, and that is my point and my biggest worry: That they will obsolete even more lockbox ships. (Most any other lockbox ship out atm I could argue still has some kind of usage still)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
(What boils down to long-winded hyperbolic drivel)
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
So where is our Vesta counterpart? Oh yeah we don't get one, we got over it. We got a slightly, insignificantly better Battlecruiser? Oh well, get over it. And the Devs, your "Word of God" have, by holy decree, declared the Mogh to be insignificantly better with a built in basic cloak.
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
Dude, you just don't get it. They're the same ship, but the factions receiving them aren't receiving them in the same context. Your so called word of god devs have even articulated this, and have never once said that the ships were so deliberately developed as counterparts as your constituency seems to demand be considered a given. This isn't a one-for-one deal. Battlecruisers to the klingon faction do not equate battlecruisers to the federation faction, and the mogh and avenger were never intended to balance each other out or be equal, that's just how they turned out because of poor dev planning.
Feds have many science ships. The kdf have none. The feds top this off by having the best science ship.
KDF Have many battle cruisers. The feds have none. The kdf top this off by having the best battle cruiser. The feds, however, have been awarded a stripped version of this ship handicapped on the basis that they get something uniquely KDF at a slight price.
In response to this, the feds are saying that it's not fair that their version is lesser, using poorly framed numerical figures and a disregard for prior precedents set in-game to try and justify it.
In actuality, the logical conclusion is that another step is yet to be made, that the KDF receive a stripped, handicapped version of the uniquely fed specialty ship, the Vesta. This is based on the precedence of balance already established in game and un-violated by the in-tandem-but-unintentially-chronologically-proximate release of these two ships.
You talk about math but can't balance an equation.
How's that for a TL;DR? Will you actually read any part of my argument yet?
Because you're saying let's get ice cream, and accusing me of saying let's get hamburgers and expecting the game point, when in reality I'm saying it's too cold out for ice cream and you're replying by saying ice cream louder, but somehow I'm the straw man...
Edit: Also, you accuse me of posting long posts, when in reality only two of my seven have been "long" and most of the things I've called you out on not reading before posting were in my first, short ones. Sheesh, you missed me saying I was a fed twice. The first time was a one line post where that was the only thing I said. Maybe you and Billy Madison have more in common than you intended to portray here...
So where is our Vesta counterpart? Oh yeah we don't get one, we got over it. We got a slightly, insignificantly better Battlecruiser? Oh well, get over it. And the Devs, your "Word of God" have, by holy decree, declared the Mogh to be insignificantly better with a built in basic cloak.
Devs don't always make the wisest decisions, however. Two wrongs don't make a right. KDF should seen expansion in its shipyard, more science-oriented vessels on top of it all. However anyone arguing that the Mogh is not unbalanced to its counterpart is just being a hypocrite.
You misconstrue my refusal to address your strawman; and thus not play into your game. The only commonality between the Mogh and the Vesta is what you force. As stated prior, it's of little consequence to me as I don't have a need to be right here, I'm just correcting your attempt to tarnish my character before bed.
(Not worth an extra post, but happy 100th I guess. The speed of your reply is disturbing.)
Devs don't always make the wisest decisions, however. Two wrongs don't make a right. KDF should seen expansion in its shipyard, more science-oriented vessels on top of it all. However anyone arguing that the Mogh is not unbalanced to its counterpart is just being a hypocrite.
You misconstrue my refusal to address your strawman; and thus not play into your game. The only commonality between the Mogh and the Vesta is what you force. As stated prior, it's of little consequence to me as I don't have a need to be right here, I'm just correcting your attempt to tarnish my character before bed.
By refusing to address what you call a straw man because you can't grasp simple logic, and instead presenting personal insults and accusations, you are, in fact presenting a straw man. So you see the irony here in you calling other people hypocrites, right?
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. .
Funny when you call everyone who disagrees with you kids, or implying those that play kdf have problems with reading comprehension and also insulting others intelligence to try and make your points valid when others have brought up good points.
Devs don't always make the wisest decisions, however.
Your right, Feds should have never gotten a Battlecruiser, further spoiling them. Then we wouldn't even have this issue. Obviously the Feds have come to expect to have the superior of everything, now they want all their ships to have cloaks. Just LOL.
Feddie qq/complaints would be somewhat ok if Varanus, Raptors/escorts were on par with fed ships, we haven't any proper sci ship besides varan (inferior to dssv) and korath (wells pasta), we have got inferior escorts. Don't even tell me about bops, they will at least have flanking bonus soon (tm)...
Also our only 5 tac console ship is a flying brick.
Not to mention long ship drought in c store for us.
We had advantage only in battlecruisers until Avenger came out, i'm glad that Mogh will be on par with Avenger, too bad though it's copy pasta but i'll buy it.
IMHO it's not +1 versus Legoprise, it does have innate cloak as other kdf ships which is not as good as rommie battlecloak, higher crew ok, but crew doesn't matter.
Better p2w console? Lol, we'll see, it doesn't appear that useful.
Come On peeps we all would moan if they didn't make any ships at all. i think we just look at it as if oh no feds get another ship oh no Klingons get another ship (but i agree that its time they do cause they have been neglected) for so long.
I hate Klingons I hate romulans even more.
so settle the argument my way, if i see the new ship in kerrat or pvp i will certainly be blowing it up (yes im sure you be doing the same before you come out with some smart remark)
KDF has always had free standard cloak it seems on the battle cruisers and only paid for it in handicaps on Raptors. Bops have battle cloaks and have always paid for them.
I am curiuos though, when did this ninja buff to the KDF happen and where if any is the proof. Ive been here since the begining and remember no buff to make the KDF more appealing.
That was the day when the Negh'vars hull was brought on par with fed ships. And ever since then Klingons are getting their cruiser cloak for free.
Why has this free advantage have to be carried over into the Avenger/Mogh copy/paste era, while other ships like the vet one and the temporal ships were treated differently?
That was the day when the Negh'vars hull was brought on par with fed ships. And ever since then Klingons are getting their cruiser cloak for free.
Why has this free advantage have to be carried over into the Avenger/Mogh copy/paste era, while other ships like the vet one and the temporal ships were treated differently?
One Ship was buffed in hull and that signals the end of balance for the feds? One battle cruiser out if all the KDF battle cruisers?
You players are too sensitive to think such a single buff has unbalanced the game.
What about all the KDF battle cruisers who did not get a hull buff? How do we even know the buff to the Neghvar was not due to an oversight in its creation?
How does this one incident signal that all KDF battle cruisers now buffed to make them more appealing?
Hell bells, I could make the same strawman claim about the Fleet Defiants fifth Tac slot and it would not mean all Escorts got a buff to make them more appealing to draw in fed escort players.
For all that is known they could have just been correcting a mistake in its design.
sheesh! and the feds call the KDF over reactionary.....
Meh I somehow was especting this. And only now ppl are actually seen it how overpowered kdf ships are compared to the fed ships, only at a direct comparison. And now with the fleet consoles there is even more obvious and bigger unbalance. Put in that extra console slot a Fleet RCS [All Ress], or a Fleet Neutronium with +turn or +hullHP and you got a way better ship then the Avenger.
Kinda sad that the devs see a build-in cloak as nothing for kdf and a console slot for fed ships. Indeed a Device instaid of a Console would solve alot, since there were called Cloaking DEVICEs anyway. Great idea, but i doubt it will be ever implemented. But it was wrong to go from the start with the build-in cloaks for kdf anyway. Becouse IP?? Yeah right... Then the Defiant shouldve had a Romulan Battle Cloak... It was from the romulans afterall...
And about kdf complaining about fed complaining (and on a side note, i remember when avenger got the cruiser commands I didnt saw any fed posts about not giving them to the kdf, yet i've seen plenty of rants from kdf to not giving the flanking bonus mechanic to the feds, wich I am ok with it, not saying I want it, just saying about whinings...), most ppl dont want kdf ships nerfed, but actually balanced ships (not talking about romulans, just pure fed vs kdf ships). Quantity doesnt overcome quality. What good if the fed faction has, lets say, 15 ships, while kdf only 5. Ppl will pick up/buy the first 5 from fed side anyway. More is not equal to better. Guramba is the best escort/destryer, even counting as a 10 console slots ship becouse of the build in skill. The Javolin makes the Phaser lance a joke, wich was nerfed cuz kdf compains about poping bops around lol. The Javolin is even way better then the other damaging consoles, like the andorian cannon overload or the vesta phaser beam, since you can spam it once every min and it doesnt takes up a precios console slot. And on sci ships? Your kiding, a fleet varanus drain build with an aceton makes any vesta a joke. Heck even a Kar'fi is better. And some1 brought up pets. Fighters are a joke now, no matter how good they are. Not even talking PvP, but even in PvE the voth preatty much slaughter them. Might aswell play without them anyway. Only frigates survive, wich kdf has both free and c-store, while fed side doesnt get them even from c-store.
Also the cannon ships, the ones most players want to fly, are ridiculous. The kdf has a brel bop or the vorcha, even if its an actually fleet torkat with a vorcha skin, powerfull ships with good skills/abilities. While feds what have??? Galaxy or Galaxy-X (wich is even called Failaxy-X lol), wich are the most useless ships in the game. Or a defiant with an handicapated cloak, even tho in the show it was never stated it was subpar with the kdf one. Or a Voyager with a rather useless ablative generator.
Now remains to be seen how much is it worth their invenstment for this ship, meaning if it will sell. As i know not many ppl will trade their fleet torkat for this, wich still remains the best battlecruiser, since 5 forward weapons means little now with beam builds been better.
Dude, you just don't get it. They're the same ship, but the factions receiving them aren't receiving them in the same context. Your so called word of god devs have even articulated this, and have never once said that the ships were so deliberately developed as counterparts as your constituency seems to demand be considered a given.
If we take him at his word they were. I agree that we need to have some equivalents elsewhere, in the escort and science line, but trying to revenge shaft Fed side, with a cloak they have to spend a console slot to use, isn't the way to get faction parity, it will only start wars like this.
Klingons celebrate Festivus. The Airing of Grievances is going on right now, as you can see in any thread where the Mogh is being discussed. Feats of Strength are coming up next!
One Ship was buffed in hull and that signals the end of balance for the feds? One battle cruiser out if all the KDF battle cruisers?
You players are too sensitive to think such a single buff has unbalanced the game.
What about all the KDF battle cruisers who did not get a hull buff? How do we even know the buff to the Neghvar was not due to an oversight in its creation?
How does this one incident signal that all KDF battle cruisers now buffed to make them more appealing?
T5 Vor'cha was added with the same patch (and the same klingon favoralbe cloak/stats) and well... that was the klingon endgame BC lineup back at that time. So after all, indeed the whole Klingon cruiser lineup was buffed that day. Everything else up to the Mogh is just following the pattern set that day.
Comments
The known issue about the KDF uniforms is way overdue to be fixed. It's plagued my main since the launch of season 6; four of my seven uniforms are unusable and unmodifiable.
This is an excellent point. Let's ignore the whole "fed vs kdf" balance notion for a while and examine this. What particular brand of doublethink in the Cryptic offices has Gorn saying "Cloak is worthless" and "Cloak is worth the same cost to your ship as this Cool New Thing I just spent half the dev blog and several pictures talking about," in the same breath?
It's thinking about whatever is sure to make them their money. Release a great ship for one side, then re-release a superior version for the other side. It's an extremely dirty but well known trick in the more unscrupulous micro-transaction supported games. This is the kind of thing people feared when PWE bought Cryptic. Lockboxes and their powerful contents are nothing, these kinds of balance discrepancies for profit will destroy the game.
Teongray, I find your post petty and made without full understanding of my stance, especially considering that you decided to wait until after I stated my intentions to leave this thread to address me by name. I also want to note that were I not offended, I would be amused at your need to google a term thrown around by others before trying to test your perception of half of my stance to stick it to. The fact that you so readily need an insult to hurl at me that you'll reach into the toolboxes of others and try to make it fit instead of crafting an argument of your own speaks volumes about your willingness to approach a situation with a logical, open mind. Good job making sure you knew what something you wanted to use meant before you used it though. Thinking before you post is almost as good as reading before your post. Speaking of which...
For the third time tonight, I reiterate: I am a fed player. I have one KDF alt, it is at level 12 and a neglected doff slave who exists solely to mail my fed main contraband. I find myself agreeing with KDF players whose incessant whining I usually abhor because, for once, they're right. This is something they should have and something they should be better at, and feds need to get over it, because their ability to borrow the KDFs defining features of gameplay is a priveledge, not a right. I expect that, as you've previously displayed your willing tendency to not read my posts before confronting me publicly, I will have to remind you of that again.
I reiterate, the straw man here is you. The ship is purported by the same dev you quote to be based on a KDF exclusive ship class. The predecent has been set with the inclusion of the cloaking device fitted to our equivalent raptors from the very beginning- Fed ships can use normally KDF exclusive technology, albeit at a price.
The avenger did not need to exist. It was an excessive, opulent addition to a long history of spoiled, pandered to federation players at the expensive of developer time that would otherwise be spent on one of the other two frankly barren factions. They took the best battle cruiser, made it better, and gave it to the feds. Klingons were rightly mad considering the neglect, the devs realized they got caught, and quickly co-opted what was almost surely the model for a different, future kdf ship and copy pasted the stats in.
Do I think either the mogh or avenger should exist? No. If feds needed a battlecruiser, it probably should've been stuck in a lockbox, god knows they're running thin on ideas there. But if it is going to exist, you know who should get the better battle cruiser? The faction that actually has a lineage of battlecruisers. Why? Because the faction that has the lineage of science vessels has the best science vessels in the game.
That is balance.
I want you to read this next part very carefully, because you can't seem to wrap your mind around it.
The mogh and the avenger are not complimentary. They are not the Oddy and Bortas, they were not developed at the same time inteded to represent the same role for both factions. The avenger was the ship-version of the fed cloaking device. The feds being given a KDF exclusive at a small disadvantage. The mogh was a hastily thought up retroactive bandaid when the community rightfully pointed out the injustice behind the KDF waiting 2+ years for a ship, only to see a ship that was an updated-for-power-creep version of their best design in the whole class handed out to the other faction before they got anything similar at all. I'm not trying to distract from the numerical similarity, in my opinion, that's a blatant embarrassment that should last as a reminder to future developer projects to consider duly spending their time on each faction of paying customers. But in the end, the actual numbers are irrelevant. The ships should not be identical because they are not equivocal in their purpose for existence, and by disregarding that fact, it is in fact you who is applying what you dub a 'stawman argument'
Yes, the devs have said they have identical stats, because they got caught in the spotlight, had to admit it, and righted their wrong. No beef, devs. But seriously, stop giving everything a hangar bay and 5 fore slots and +100 base power insulators. More individual weapons, and more science powers. Debuff some weapon recharge times, stick a crit resist on science vessels, or make it scale positively with defense like susceptibility does with accuracy.
Back to trying to hammer my argument into your skull. Nowhere in gorns post does he say they are sister ships or counterparts. The only similarity they have is in their numerical stats. That is a strawman. They fill two different roles in their lineups, gorn says so in his post, I invite you to go back and actually read it. You are using misdirection here, a half truthed assumption, a heuristic, and a perceived technicality born of misunderstanding of the game basis at the very best.
The avenger is a sample of a "faction specific ship." He cites the precedence set by giving the feds kdf specific perks like the cloaking device-- that they come at a cost. If you want them sans cost, then play the faction that specializes in them.
But no, the roles each ship plays in its fleet is not the same. The avenger is a sample of a kdf ship type previously unavailable to feds. The mogh is the superior culmination of a ship type well established in the klingon faction just like the Vesta is.
You want a fair trade? Go ahead, lop off a hunk of our shield modifier. Make it .9, .85 even. Go crazy with your balance gun, I don't care. Reiterate how fed should have their factional tanking advantage over kdf, even when flying kdf ship classes.
But we get a Vesta with cannon subsystem targeting and 4 tac slots because we may not be the best scientists, but we sure can figure out how to make our guns work better on your ships.
That's the balance that's been set forth in the game so far, not handing out one of everything to everybody. Funny how people in your camp simultaneously berate the idea of participation trophies and then argue the same logic behind them. I do wonder how they even fit at that campfire considering the fact that they indeed are made of straw.
Congratulations if you actually made it this far down, this marks the first of my posts you've read entirely!
KDF players are going to be playing the Mogh the same way they have been playing the Tor'Kaht. So what is the issue people? (By people I mean the same dozen or less people in the forums bringing up the same repetitive arguments) Honestly, the amount of people in the forums is so small the opinions wont make any difference in the developers choices.
Because the Tor'kaht has strengths and drawbacks. Better A, worse B. It balances itself out. Advantages come with costs, in Tor'kaht's case gaining extra mobility, offense, and first-strike ability over the standard cruiser, but in exchange has a weakness weakness in the boff layout and weaker hull and eventually losing a cruiser command.
The Mogh/Avenger thing though (where I and many others disagree with Killdozer's assessment) is a place where we get a straight apples-to-apples comparison. Two ships, same cost, same layout, almost the same release timing, same everything except skin. We've had this scenario in the game several times before, parings such as the Sovereign vs T5 Vor'cha, or Ambassador vs Kamarag, or Patrol Escort vs Qin Raptor, where you have two identical ships, then one of them gives up one thing to gain something else. Trades, not always a 100% fair trade, but an attempt is made at balance.
In this case you stack the two next to each other, identical in every way except for one thing that X has that Y doesn't, and X didn't pay anything to get it. Whether the advantage of X is major or minor, its a freebie, not as an accident or modeling error or questionable trade, just pure bonus just because. Drop 1500 hull or 0.05 shields off the Mogh, just something to pay for that cloak, and 2/3 of this thread vanishes. Its not faction bias or the crying some egotists insecurely wish it was, its just a question of math.
I will leave a very small story for you all:
The war continued on and on, raging between the Federation with their Avenger-class, and the Klingon Empire with their brand new Mogh-class. The battles were many, and fierce. Neither side wished to budge in their views against the other. Maybe these battles would simmer down, maybe they wouldn't.
But, one group was feeling far worse than any of the combatants in the battle:
The Ferengi.
They looked at the fighting going on, and then to their own fleet of unused, and more importantly, UNSOLD D'koras simply sitting in space, not gaining profit for them. There would always be those in the Federation and the Klingon Empire, even the Romulan Republic who would also desire a D'kora, but for the Federation and Klingons, that desire was much less than it had been in the past. Their newer ship designs made most of them no longer want to use a D'kora, as the new ships were simply superior enough for it not to matter.
Again they sighed, hoping that the Great River might soon flow their way again.
Moral of the story folks: Ya'll might whine and moan on either side about this or that, but BOTH the Avenger and the Mogh I feel completely obsolete the D'kora. Some have said that it's a bad, slippery slope to have a ship simply be better than an 'equal' ship on another faction, but you know what's worse?
Having a ship for one or more factions completely obsolete a LOCKBOX ship. I know not everyone agrees with the lockbox deal, but those are generally considered absolute top of the line in most cases, and if they start obsoleting those kinds of ships, that will only mean they might release something even more extreme to compensate.
Obviously any point can be argued, and that is my point and my biggest worry: That they will obsolete even more lockbox ships. (Most any other lockbox ship out atm I could argue still has some kind of usage still)
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
TL;DR for our cheap-seat friends.
So where is our Vesta counterpart? Oh yeah we don't get one, we got over it. We got a slightly, insignificantly better Battlecruiser? Oh well, get over it. And the Devs, your "Word of God" have, by holy decree, declared the Mogh to be insignificantly better with a built in basic cloak.
Dude, you just don't get it. They're the same ship, but the factions receiving them aren't receiving them in the same context. Your so called word of god devs have even articulated this, and have never once said that the ships were so deliberately developed as counterparts as your constituency seems to demand be considered a given. This isn't a one-for-one deal. Battlecruisers to the klingon faction do not equate battlecruisers to the federation faction, and the mogh and avenger were never intended to balance each other out or be equal, that's just how they turned out because of poor dev planning.
Feds have many science ships. The kdf have none. The feds top this off by having the best science ship.
KDF Have many battle cruisers. The feds have none. The kdf top this off by having the best battle cruiser. The feds, however, have been awarded a stripped version of this ship handicapped on the basis that they get something uniquely KDF at a slight price.
In response to this, the feds are saying that it's not fair that their version is lesser, using poorly framed numerical figures and a disregard for prior precedents set in-game to try and justify it.
In actuality, the logical conclusion is that another step is yet to be made, that the KDF receive a stripped, handicapped version of the uniquely fed specialty ship, the Vesta. This is based on the precedence of balance already established in game and un-violated by the in-tandem-but-unintentially-chronologically-proximate release of these two ships.
You talk about math but can't balance an equation.
How's that for a TL;DR? Will you actually read any part of my argument yet?
Because you're saying let's get ice cream, and accusing me of saying let's get hamburgers and expecting the game point, when in reality I'm saying it's too cold out for ice cream and you're replying by saying ice cream louder, but somehow I'm the straw man...
Edit: Also, you accuse me of posting long posts, when in reality only two of my seven have been "long" and most of the things I've called you out on not reading before posting were in my first, short ones. Sheesh, you missed me saying I was a fed twice. The first time was a one line post where that was the only thing I said. Maybe you and Billy Madison have more in common than you intended to portray here...
Devs don't always make the wisest decisions, however. Two wrongs don't make a right. KDF should seen expansion in its shipyard, more science-oriented vessels on top of it all. However anyone arguing that the Mogh is not unbalanced to its counterpart is just being a hypocrite.
You misconstrue my refusal to address your strawman; and thus not play into your game. The only commonality between the Mogh and the Vesta is what you force. As stated prior, it's of little consequence to me as I don't have a need to be right here, I'm just correcting your attempt to tarnish my character before bed.
(Not worth an extra post, but happy 100th I guess. The speed of your reply is disturbing.)
By refusing to address what you call a straw man because you can't grasp simple logic, and instead presenting personal insults and accusations, you are, in fact presenting a straw man. So you see the irony here in you calling other people hypocrites, right?
Good night troll. Happy 100th post to me.
Funny when you call everyone who disagrees with you kids, or implying those that play kdf have problems with reading comprehension and also insulting others intelligence to try and make your points valid when others have brought up good points.
Your right, Feds should have never gotten a Battlecruiser, further spoiling them. Then we wouldn't even have this issue. Obviously the Feds have come to expect to have the superior of everything, now they want all their ships to have cloaks. Just LOL.
i will ofc buy any thing kdf to support the ignored faction
Also our only 5 tac console ship is a flying brick.
Not to mention long ship drought in c store for us.
We had advantage only in battlecruisers until Avenger came out, i'm glad that Mogh will be on par with Avenger, too bad though it's copy pasta but i'll buy it.
IMHO it's not +1 versus Legoprise, it does have innate cloak as other kdf ships which is not as good as rommie battlecloak, higher crew ok, but crew doesn't matter.
Better p2w console? Lol, we'll see, it doesn't appear that useful.
So stop crying for nerf ("balance") :P
I hate Klingons I hate romulans even more.
so settle the argument my way, if i see the new ship in kerrat or pvp i will certainly be blowing it up (yes im sure you be doing the same before you come out with some smart remark)
But its all part of the fun
R.I.P
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=3109425
That was the day when the Negh'vars hull was brought on par with fed ships. And ever since then Klingons are getting their cruiser cloak for free.
Why has this free advantage have to be carried over into the Avenger/Mogh copy/paste era, while other ships like the vet one and the temporal ships were treated differently?
with a ratio of something like 6 new fed ships for 1 kdf ship to be realsed im just happy we even got ship. i dont care what stats it has
What Klingon holiday is that??? A Very Klingon Kristmas?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703395904576025760797375264
Addicted: January 2012
batlh QIH 'ej!
One Ship was buffed in hull and that signals the end of balance for the feds? One battle cruiser out if all the KDF battle cruisers?
You players are too sensitive to think such a single buff has unbalanced the game.
What about all the KDF battle cruisers who did not get a hull buff? How do we even know the buff to the Neghvar was not due to an oversight in its creation?
How does this one incident signal that all KDF battle cruisers now buffed to make them more appealing?
Hell bells, I could make the same strawman claim about the Fleet Defiants fifth Tac slot and it would not mean all Escorts got a buff to make them more appealing to draw in fed escort players.
For all that is known they could have just been correcting a mistake in its design.
sheesh! and the feds call the KDF over reactionary.....
R.I.P
Kinda sad that the devs see a build-in cloak as nothing for kdf and a console slot for fed ships. Indeed a Device instaid of a Console would solve alot, since there were called Cloaking DEVICEs anyway. Great idea, but i doubt it will be ever implemented. But it was wrong to go from the start with the build-in cloaks for kdf anyway. Becouse IP?? Yeah right... Then the Defiant shouldve had a Romulan Battle Cloak... It was from the romulans afterall...
And about kdf complaining about fed complaining (and on a side note, i remember when avenger got the cruiser commands I didnt saw any fed posts about not giving them to the kdf, yet i've seen plenty of rants from kdf to not giving the flanking bonus mechanic to the feds, wich I am ok with it, not saying I want it, just saying about whinings...), most ppl dont want kdf ships nerfed, but actually balanced ships (not talking about romulans, just pure fed vs kdf ships). Quantity doesnt overcome quality. What good if the fed faction has, lets say, 15 ships, while kdf only 5. Ppl will pick up/buy the first 5 from fed side anyway. More is not equal to better. Guramba is the best escort/destryer, even counting as a 10 console slots ship becouse of the build in skill. The Javolin makes the Phaser lance a joke, wich was nerfed cuz kdf compains about poping bops around lol. The Javolin is even way better then the other damaging consoles, like the andorian cannon overload or the vesta phaser beam, since you can spam it once every min and it doesnt takes up a precios console slot. And on sci ships? Your kiding, a fleet varanus drain build with an aceton makes any vesta a joke. Heck even a Kar'fi is better. And some1 brought up pets. Fighters are a joke now, no matter how good they are. Not even talking PvP, but even in PvE the voth preatty much slaughter them. Might aswell play without them anyway. Only frigates survive, wich kdf has both free and c-store, while fed side doesnt get them even from c-store.
Also the cannon ships, the ones most players want to fly, are ridiculous. The kdf has a brel bop or the vorcha, even if its an actually fleet torkat with a vorcha skin, powerfull ships with good skills/abilities. While feds what have??? Galaxy or Galaxy-X (wich is even called Failaxy-X lol), wich are the most useless ships in the game. Or a defiant with an handicapated cloak, even tho in the show it was never stated it was subpar with the kdf one. Or a Voyager with a rather useless ablative generator.
Now remains to be seen how much is it worth their invenstment for this ship, meaning if it will sell. As i know not many ppl will trade their fleet torkat for this, wich still remains the best battlecruiser, since 5 forward weapons means little now with beam builds been better.
Exactly, though I got the idea from a recent Klingn themed Kristmas book I bought.
R.I.P
I agreed with this in all my post. What's the issue?
They did though, again as quoted by ussultimatum: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=80
If we take him at his word they were. I agree that we need to have some equivalents elsewhere, in the escort and science line, but trying to revenge shaft Fed side, with a cloak they have to spend a console slot to use, isn't the way to get faction parity, it will only start wars like this.
Klingons celebrate Festivus. The Airing of Grievances is going on right now, as you can see in any thread where the Mogh is being discussed. Feats of Strength are coming up next!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus