You want ships designed around faction merits, but the merit can't be an actual ability, it can only be numerical difference?
It could be an ability.
What ability does the Avenger have that equals the Mogh's innate cloak?
The point is that it could have been anything, but the devs decided very specifically on nothing and that the Avenger should be a slightly lesser ship.
What ability does the Avenger have that equals the Mogh's innate cloak?
The point is that it could have been anything, but the devs decided very specifically on nothing and that the Avenger should be a slightly lesser ship.
First, stop comparing the avenger to the mogh. For the third time, the most apt comparison is to the vesta. Their roles in being made available to players of their respective factions are not mirrored just because their stats are.
Second, it's the only cruiser that fits dual cannons, and it's the only cruiser with 5 forward tactical slots.
Third: You know what actually equals this cloak? MES I. So any ship in the game can run a simple cloak. It's hardly an advantage. You don't get the dps boost? Well, too bad. That's a kdf faction trait you were lent with the cloaking device, just like the avenger is a factional ship type you were lent. If you want a nausicaan boff, max diplomacy on a couple alts, buy them from jiro and mail them to your main.
Not since day one. Initially KDF ships had lower stats to offset cloak. But with the KDF stillborn Cryptic decided to make them more powerful and thus more desirable. That's why KDF gets free cloak onto their ships, and why consoles like leech originate to the red side. However that was long ago. Now in the age of nearly identical ships and content, it's time to bring balance back into the game.
KDF has always had free standard cloak it seems on the battle cruisers and only paid for it in handicaps on Raptors. Bops have battle cloaks and have always paid for them.
I am curiuos though, when did this ninja buff to the KDF happen and where if any is the proof. Ive been here since the begining and remember no buff to make the KDF more appealing.
First, stop comparing the avenger to the mogh. For the third time, the most apt comparison is to the vesta. Their roles in being made available to players of their respective factions are not mirrored just because their stats are.
First
The Avenger is a battle cruiser. It has literally zero to do with the Vesta.
The Mogh is a clone of the Avenger. Gorngonzolla already stated they developed these side by side with the Avenger being the groundwork for the Mogh.
To give you a bit of insight into both how the Avenger and Mogh were created. When we make new ships we want to make them attractive and as balanced as possible. When creating the Avenger Battlecruiser I initially tried balancing it around Starfleet cruisers. This led me to a dead end, as a battlecruiser it would end being way too similar to existing fed cruisers and not be comparable to kdf battlecruisers and that was ultimately my goal.
So, I began listing out all the tier 5 kdf battlecruiser stats side by side (along with a few choice fed cruisers) and found a niche that hadn't been hit by either faction. That's where the Avenger's stats came from, and ultimately the Mogh. It was always the plan to release a kdf equivalent of the Avenger.
It's the second Fed cruiser that can fit dual cannons.
The Mogh is the only KDF battle cruiser with 5 forward weapons - so how is this even relevant?
THIRD
MES doesn't grant a 15% to 30% ambush bonus.
MES isn't innately built into the ship "for free".
You are 0 for 3. Try again.
First. It's a battlecruiser. It is not a cruiser. They are different types of ship designed to do different things. Cruisers are fed ships. The avenger is a battlecruiser, a klingon design, enabled for the feds. It's the equivalent of a fed ship with a singularity core. Also, the avenger is just an updated torkaht if anything, if you really want to turn this into a chicken or the egg thing. The dreadnought is a dreadnought cruiser. It's literally a unique ship, but if anything, according to the criteria used to differentiate between the classes, it too would be a battlecruiser.
Battlecruisers, tac heavy cruisers with the innate ability to cloak and mount dual cannons are a kldf only ship class. Their science and engineering capabilities are never as focused as federation cruisers, this means less tank survivability, incorporating a defensive precedent for the cloak alongside the ambush bonus to augment its offensively oriented role.
Science ships, not support ships, are a unique class of ship made available in game and for free to fed players at every tier with science heavy seating, limited tactical abilities, middle sized turn rates, high shield modifiers, and the occasional ability to field pets.
Are you keeping up with me so far? Battlecruisers =/= cruisers and science vessels =/= support vessels?
Now, how many battle cruisers does the fed have at end game? Let's count. Well, there's the avenger and the dread. So we'll call that 2. Remember that number. Can you do that for me? Let's try. If not we can scroll back up.
Ok, now, how many science vessels does the kdf have at endgame? None. They have the support class, whose total of 1 field example show a primary focus on science and a secondary on engineering. The closest things the fed have to that is a grand total of one ship, the DSV. Funny thing, though, if we called the DSV a support vessel and said they were equivalent, then the regent would be a battlecruiser and be equivalent to a kdf battlecruiser. I'm sure it filled that role so well it didn't need to be outclassed by the introduction of an actual battlecruiser. Oh, wait...
Alright. So now that we've established this, let's consider the 2 ships in question.
The vesta: the tier 5 pinnacle combination of all the abilities that define the science ship: pets, relatively limited offensive output, science heavy seating, high shield modifier, medium turn rate, etc etc etc.
The mogh: the tier 5 pinnacle combination of all the abilities that define the battlecruiser: cloak, dual cannons, higher turn rate, weaker tanking abilities than a fed cruiser.
Both are the overkill variant of a ship class not only exclusive to their faction, but whose even closest equivalents are scarce. Both are faction locked.
The mogh is to kdf captains as the vesta is to federation captains.
Now, if we can get through SAT prep, let's address the other 2 points you have issue with.
Second: well, actually, we covered this in my first part. Great, efficiency!
Third: Like I said, that's a factional trait. It's the same uniqueness you were arguing for not even two pages back. Feds don't hunt unsuspecting targets, they don't ambush, that's not their doctrine, they don't even call their ships warships because it sounds too aggressive. The stealth value is equal enough, maybe feds need to sneak. Every ship can sneak. The only ships that get ambush bonuses are romulan and klingon and a choice few of fed ships running romulan tech. Which is exactly how it should be. Faction uniqueness and canon backed. If you want an ambush bonus, play the faction that ambushes. If you don't like that fed can't ambush, you don't like fed.
If anything, the ship count won't be balanced until KDF gets a single variant, tac heavy knockoff of the vesta with a useless console that duplicates an ensign-level ability that we swear is an absolute priveledge to own, seeing as you got a free nerfed knock-off of our flagship battlecruiser.
First, stop comparing the avenger to the mogh. For the third time, the most apt comparison is to the vesta. Their roles in being made available to players of their respective factions are not mirrored just because their stats are.
This is the point you're not understanding. We're not comparing the avenger to the mogh because of similar role within the faction. We're comparing them for numerical convenience. The fact is they should ALL be compared and found balanced, and if not then adjusted. The avenger compared to the mogh compared to the vesta compared to the bortasqu compared to the fleet defiant compared to the fleet vo'quv compared to all of them.
10 console slots (except BoPs, which have their own thing with unis and battlecloak and no one's debating BoPs.)
A certain sliding amount of hull and shields and turn etc depending on their role.
5 boff stations (except again, BoPs)
6-8 weapons except under special circumstances and mitigated by other factors
Look at the avenger. 8 weapons, and stats comparable to the battlecruiser line. Gains a frontal weapon, but loses on ability to fend off a target on its tail. Specialized for attacking a target in front moreso than its counterparts, but still in balance.
Look at the vesta. Standard science ship weapon loadout. Included hangar similar to the HEC and flight deck cruisers. Special abilities that require a console slot to use, as do all others. Aux cannons that drain auxiliary power, which is the bread and butter of a science ship. Excellent at science stuff, but still comparable to the other top-end ships overall.
Look at the Kumari. 5 weapons up front, 5 tactical consoles, crazy fast. Pays for this with only 2 in the rear and defenses made of paper. Extremely specialized, possibly overspecialized.
Look at the bortasqu. Gigantic behemoth of a cruiser. 4/4 weapon loadout and 5 tac consoles. Comes with a cloak. Pays for all this by losing some of its tank and moving like a bus without wheels. The undisputed king of broadside dps before the scimitar came along and one of my favorite ships to fly.
Look at the...you know what, let's not talk about romulans, lol. That there's a tangled mess of game mechanics I'm not prepared to deal with here.
And now look at the mogh. The avenger, but better.
The above ships all have their strengths compared to one another, and they all have their weaknesses. The thing that makes them fun to fly isn't that they have more total value than their counterparts (they don't), but that where their value is distributed tickles us, their captains, in a particular way. They all have the same number of value points in them, but they put their value where it matters most.
The mogh simply has more points than the avenger. And thus commenced the fed-rage, having been provoked.
First. It's a battlecruiser. It is not a cruiser. They are different types of ship designed to do different things. Cruisers are fed ships. The avenger is a battlecruiser, a klingon design, enabled for the feds. It's the equivalent of a fed ship with a singularity core.
Uhhh, explain?
One point (at least I think) you are making is that so far the free cross faction stuff has consisted of formerly KDF unique opportunities, Free Battlecruiser,Free carrier, Free raider. A free cross faction sci ship would be great.
One a more positive note I love this! Definitely getting for my KDF tac!
I agree though, that a free cloak just like that out to be balanced out, with either a very slight nerf to stats or some kind of slight avenger buff.
One point (at least I think) you are making is that so far the free cross faction stuff has consisted of formerly KDF unique opportunities, Free Battlecruiser,Free carrier, Free raider. A free cross faction sci ship would be great.
One a more positive note I love this! Definitely getting for my KDF tac!
I agree though, that a free cloak just like that out to be balanced out, with either a very slight nerf to stats or some kind of slight avenger buff.
As stated previously ... Make FED cloak a "Device" and not a console ... and give Avenger a fourth device slot .... problem solved.
As stated previously ... Make FED cloak a "Device" and not a console ... and give Avenger a fourth device slot .... problem solved.
It's an elegant solution that doesn't violate canon or muss the hair of anyone at CBS. I'd even take the cloaking "device" without the device slot addition just as a good-faith step in the right direction.
Well I don't think the avenger would need another device slot even with the cloak made into a device as most people really wouldn't suffer any lower dps or survivability from having to use a device slot for that.
This is the point you're not understanding. We're not comparing the avenger to the mogh because of similar role within the faction. We're comparing them for numerical convenience. The fact is they should ALL be compared and found balanced, and if not then adjusted. The avenger compared to the mogh compared to the vesta compared to the bortasqu compared to the fleet defiant compared to the fleet vo'quv compared to all of them.
10 console slots (except BoPs, which have their own thing with unis and battlecloak and no one's debating BoPs.)
A certain sliding amount of hull and shields and turn etc depending on their role.
5 boff stations (except again, BoPs)
6-8 weapons except under special circumstances and mitigated by other factors
Look at the avenger. 8 weapons, and stats comparable to the battlecruiser line. Gains a frontal weapon, but loses on ability to fend off a target on its tail. Specialized for attacking a target in front moreso than its counterparts, but still in balance.
Look at the vesta. Standard science ship weapon loadout. Included hangar similar to the HEC and flight deck cruisers. Special abilities that require a console slot to use, as do all others. Aux cannons that drain auxiliary power, which is the bread and butter of a science ship. Excellent at science stuff, but still comparable to the other top-end ships overall.
Look at the Kumari. 5 weapons up front, 5 tactical consoles, crazy fast. Pays for this with only 2 in the rear and defenses made of paper. Extremely specialized, possibly overspecialized.
Look at the bortasqu. Gigantic behemoth of a cruiser. 4/4 weapon loadout and 5 tac consoles. Comes with a cloak. Pays for all this by losing some of its tank and moving like a bus without wheels. The undisputed king of broadside dps before the scimitar came along and one of my favorite ships to fly.
Look at the...you know what, let's not talk about romulans, lol. That there's a tangled mess of game mechanics I'm not prepared to deal with here.
And now look at the mogh. The avenger, but better.
The above ships all have their strengths compared to one another, and they all have their weaknesses. The thing that makes them fun to fly isn't that they have more total value than their counterparts (they don't), but that where their value is distributed tickles us, their captains, in a particular way. They all have the same number of value points in them, but they put their value where it matters most.
The mogh simply has more points than the avenger. And thus commenced the fed-rage, having been provoked.
Look, I think your camp and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Numerical balance in this case is irrelevant, it's about equivocal balance. Feds got something Unique to KDF. It comes with a price of a very slight, largely irrelevant, inferiority. As it should. If the tech and design are of KDF origin, then the homefield advantage in this tech would go to the KDF, just like how every romulan ship gets a battle cloak because cloaking originates from romulan tech. The federation advantage is a larger number of defensively strong, exploration themed ships (science ships) that is larger and more specialized than romulan and klingons' options put together.
I understand at first glance, heuristic would have us take a look, say the ships are just reskinnings of each other with the only difference being the addition of a cloak, but that point isn't really fair. But the signifigance of the mogh to the KDF is different than the Avenger's to the fed. Fed got a new toy, a new playstyle, a glimpse of life on the other side from the comfort of your own couch in the form of a high turn rate, cloaking, cannon wielding cruiser with 5 fore weapon slots to offset any lost dps from losing a console slot. KDF watched you get a superior version of something that was up until then, uniquely theirs. The release of the Avenger, rightly so, was met with rage from klingons because (yet again) something uniquely theirs was given to fed. The devs had several options. The first, and the one I would favor, would've been a repass of the torkaht. But there would be some who were attached to their specific build, so that's impractical. The second would've been a form of compromise, something between the tork and avenger, but that's too incomparable and kdf would still find a way to turn it into the short end of the stick. So the third, easiest, and most practical option is to just take the same exact superior-in-every-way-tork-updated-for-insane-power-creep-of-two-years-worth-of-cstore-neglect stats and give the whole package to kdf, killing two birds with one stone. Kdf get a new c-store ship, they get the 5 fore ship they've been asking for, and keeping any fed side power creep from the release of the avenger in relative check.
Honestly, can you really say that feds can't suck it up and let the KDF keep something unique, even something as of limited use as a base cloak and actually mean it? It's ridiculously petty. How many fed escorts should get cloaks because raptors have them while we're at it?
Just because the stats are identical does not mean the factional equivalence is. That is the point. The feds having a battlecruiser made available to them is a treat and a priveldge, like the diplomacy doffs, and like the cloaking device. It is inferior to its origin faction's iteration, it comes with a cost, and it absolutely should. We don't need two factions with identical capabilities. They just need to even out. KDF Cruisers decloak and put out a whomping? Fed cruisers can sit there and take it longer. That's the model the two cruiser subtypes have been built around, that's the model of actual game balance.
There's more here than numbers, and feds don't want to acknowledge that because they've found an unprecedented technicality that sounds egalitarian but in actual is detrimental to all players on the basis that it devalues the game experience by robbing factions of uniqueness and by extent, reason to be experienced. You're actually arguing for a shallower, more uniform game.
Greendragon what do you want me to explain? That the two factions have different equivalent classes that perform different roles better, and because feds have a more limited classification for ships than kdf (3 compared to the kdf's 7) they don't understand the difference between a cruiser and a battle cruiser?
Come, all. Educate yourselves. Compare stats, compare class traits. They are not the same, they should not become the same.
Feds got the vesta, a super science ship.
KDF got the mogh, a super battle cruiser.
Feds got the avenger, a mogh-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
Kdf got the ______, a vesta-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
I've said all I can. I've posted links, I've compared designs, I've approached it from every angle. The idea that the KDF all of sudden can't continue to specialize in dps output at the expensive of non-combat support craft development is simply incorrect and unfounded. It's false logic. The KDF does something better than the Fed. The fed does something else better than the KDF. That is balance. That is how the game has been balanced. Arguing against that is arguing against balance because of a perceived disparity while simultaneously averting one's eyes from an actual disparity. It's practically child psychology, maybe even intentional self-misdirection.
All I know is, we're at 20-something pages, the ship hasn't even come out yet, and I can't convince my fellow feds that it's fair the our small taste of the enemy's up until now unique specialization rightly comes at a very small price. I'm done here.
Edit: f2p, just saw your post. The point is interesting, but I don't know if it's accurate. The galor and dkora are old, I wonder what their stats would look like if they were released next week. In either way, cross faction ships rightly skirt the line between traditional bi-faction classifcations. Compared to fed cruisers, the galor practically dances. It pays for this by being denied dual cannons. However, its power bonuses are congruent with those of a battle cruiser. Ditto for the Dkora. Compared to kdf BC's, it's a turtle without a cloak, but it has fed cruiser power bonuses. What we see here is a flip flop of the class traits, a larger version of the mirror/prime lockbox ships, if you will. I believe this was intentional on the devs parts, toying with the idea of giving modified, highly priced trade-offs of opposite faction unique ship traits, if that makes sense. However, I think this paired outlier status sets a precedence for exclusion when comparing true federation cruisers and klingon battle cruisers. Null faction ships adhere to neither faction's ship design priorities entirely.
This right here is a very good summary of the pro-mogh position without the bile we've seen from so many people so far. It's a good read.
And I agree, it is a small thing. But I feel that it underlies a larger issue. Still, thank you for taking the time to put together a calm explanatory post.
Though it is an Avenger copy, it is a NEW SHIP FOR THE KDF.
They've been wanting new end-game KDF ships for 2 years! I'm pretty much happy that they finally got a ship.
However, Feds shouldn't complain about the Mogh.
The Avenger is a first-time battle cruiser for the Feds (I don't expect them to get it amazingly well for the first time), while the KDF had more experience with their own battle cruiser vessels (Vor'cha, Negh'var, K'tinga, Kamarag, etc.), so I don't see why a small increase in crew and other stats are simply going to make the Feds rage.
Also, we don't know the full performance of the new gimmick that the Mogh will have. Real performance and statistics will probably silence the speculation once it is released. Feds have a wider variety of everything to counter the Mogh in combat, but the KDF finally has a new weapon to fight for glory and honor.
Raiders will also get that flanking bonus, so more for the KDF and Romulans!
I think Feds can get off the new ships for now and just refine the old Fed content.
Okay, if you go into the Lore of the game when J'mpok killed Martok and became Chancellor he banished Worf from entering the Great Hall. Which is why he is outside of it in the courtyard area. The lore of the story goes along with path of after Lursa and B'tor were killed by the enterprise Ja'rod went and was raised by Torg/House of Torg which were allies of the House of J'mpok and that is why when he came to power they were basically a 3 house alliance but from how the story progresses there is a void of story where the House of Duras and the House of J'mpok now stand after the discommendation of the House of Torg/Torg himself.
So they need to explain the story of how J'mpok and Worf suddenly became best buddies to let him name the ship
Edit: On what the General said the interview of the war being ended if this is something that was suppossed to be done leading up to something they haven't shared yet on the end of the war? LOL
Stuff like this reminds me of my pen & paper roleplaying games when there was always this one player who instead tried to let his character think for him and get along with a weird situation tried to discuss what in his mind cannot be out of character.
Hint: Doen't this situation tell you how... "popular" J'mpok is as a chancellor?
People are complaining about the Mogh being a carbon copy of the Avenger with a integrated combat ability that costs the Avenger 1 console slot.
You mentioned the Kamarag that is a good example, the Kamarag is not a carbon copy of the Ambassador despite both being released at the same time, the Kamarag have significant differences so when looking at both ships on a glance one cannot say one is better, yet the Mogh is a exact copy of the Avenger with a build-in cloak.
The message it gives is that "Cloak is not even worth a device slot", this is Cryptic saying cloaking is so worthless in their eyes they can just slap it on any ship even being a exact mirror of another and say "yep, balanced".
Whats next? A Heavy Escort Carrier with a build-in cloak? Because clearly cloak as far balance goes is worthless if we look at the Mogh/Avenger since same stats, yet one with a build-in cloak.
The mogh also has like 4 times the crew of the avenger. Wel almost 4 times.
This right here is a very good summary of the pro-mogh position without the bile we've seen from so many people so far. It's a good read.
And I agree, it is a small thing. But I feel that it underlies a larger issue. Still, thank you for taking the time to put together a calm explanatory post.
Thank you for hearing me. I do understand the issue you've addressed, I even agree that, had it been implemented from the very beginning, it would've been the ideal route. We may be nearing a dangerous precedent with this release, but I am optimistic that it's more of a retroactive bandaid to soothe the KDF, and in the future we'll see releases that more carefully consider factional equivalence to avoid this kind of communal polarization.
I apologize for any perceived bile on my end. I can get pretty engrossed in a good discussion.
The KDF do not deserve, and should never get a proper sci ship.
And if they do, it should be clearly inferior to any Fed versions because "getting their own Fed-style Sci ship" is its own advantage.
I don't actually want that to happen, because I believe ships should be balanced on their own merits or versus their carbon copies. Also I'd like my KDF sci to not end up with an inferior version of a ship, but that's what your thought process would dictate
whats funny is your actually describing the gorn sci ship. its not klingon, and its clearly inferior. somehow flunky little hull repair drones warranted reduced shield mod and a lame turn rate. think its just about the only c store ship that had to pay a stat penalty for its console ability
It seems to me as though this seems to be making a big deal out of something that is ultimately very minor.
The bottom line: the Mogh has a cloak built in, and the Avenger does not.
Does this mean that the Mogh is technically superior to the Avenger? Yes, it does; no one is going to argue this point. It's obvious simply by looking at the two ships side by side.
However... I wouldn't go so far as to say this constitutes an imbalance between factions, or at least certainly not one large enough to make such a fuss over. How much does the cloak benefit the Mogh? It lets it pick when a fight starts, and it gives it a minor damage buff every once in a while. It's an advantage, sure, but if you compared the damage output of a Mogh and a cloakless Avenger running the same build I doubt there would be any great difference.
Thing is, the Mogh may be slightly better, but these two ships are still well balanced relative to any other battlecruiser or cruiser. Balance wise, the Avenger is much closer to the Mogh than the Tor'kaht or the Excelsior. Both ships are going to look pretty much the same compared to a Scimitar. It's just not enough of a big deal to change the Mogh.
I can understand why people think the Avenger is worse and the Mogh is imbalanced... but let's just look at the bigger picture. If the situations were reversed, the Feds would have an inbuilt cloak, but look at the other ships - they wouldn't have any Kumaris, any Vestas, hey, they wouldn't even have any 5 Tac console escorts. Maybe Cryptic was just trying to do something nice for a faction that has received very little love in the past two years.
Besides, as I understand it, the Mogh's higher crew is actually a disadvantage, seeing as it will lose crew faster and take longer to get back to a high repair rate... maybe the devs knew what they were doing and that higher crew count is actually a sneaky way of balancing the inbuilt cloak?
Regular cloak is worthless, you get 1 chance to use it during battle. I'd never even bother slotting it on the avenger. Will barely get used on my Mogh.
Crew, meh. Bigger crews are more a disadvantage imo as it takes orders of magnitude longer to recover them yet they still die off as quick as ships with less than 100.
In both cases you start with an almost insignificant advantage, as battle draws on, it becomes meaningless or a disadvantage.
We've all got bigger fish to cry over with rom boffs.
So what's the cool down on the defence system? 2 mins I might slots it, 3 mins it becomes one of those worthless consoles.
Greendragon what do you want me to explain? That the two factions have different equivalent classes that perform different roles better, and because feds have a more limited classification for ships than kdf (3 compared to the kdf's 7) they don't understand the difference between a cruiser and a battle cruiser?
I wanted you to explain why you said it was an avenger with a sing core, but now I imagine that has something to do with being able to cloak as opposed to sing powers.
I agree wholly that these two obvious carbon copy ships should be balanced, and not one given advantage, no matter how small over the other. It's the honourable thing to do, and as stated by genhauk, a cloak in a device slot sounds like a fair solution.
This dev has stated that they took a KDF ship, with the intention of giving it to the FEDs. A KDF ship being given away. Looking at the lack of ships KDF side why would this be a top priority? Granted he also stated that the KDF was meant to have an equivalent from the start, but the initial intention is to give something KDF to the FEDs.
All this being said, it shows consideration is being given both ways, especially with the raider buff, and I for one hope to encourage more of it, by buying this ship.
Edit: How good is the console? Perhaps the console is lackluster enough to warrant a free cloak? (Wild speculation here)
Hmm, hey killdozer... As the theme tonight seems to be about educating people, here's a lesson for everyone as well.
Wikipedia:
A straw man, ... is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues. In those cases the false victory is often loudly or conspicuously celebrated.
"...to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition.., and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Sounds very much like your literary maneuver of refusing to compare the Avenger and Mogh together, despite the Devs themselves saying they are comparable and counterparts as such. Instead you argue the Mogh is like the Vesta, which isn't a remotely proper comparison and argument. Even the manner in which it is presented, it flawed, KDF would need a Science Vessel with identical stats minus the few advantages the Vesta would have over it, to make it even remotely sound.
So the lesson today, kids, is where ever Strawmen are found, KDF die-hards are sure to be around.
It's a small advantage, but the scary thing is that it sets a precedent for releasing objectively better ships that don't have to even pretend to be even with the existing ones. We travel down this road long enough and the feds will get a 9-weapon ship, followed by the kdf getting a 10-weapon ship, then the feds getting an 11 and so on.
Comments
It could be an ability.
What ability does the Avenger have that equals the Mogh's innate cloak?
The point is that it could have been anything, but the devs decided very specifically on nothing and that the Avenger should be a slightly lesser ship.
First, stop comparing the avenger to the mogh. For the third time, the most apt comparison is to the vesta. Their roles in being made available to players of their respective factions are not mirrored just because their stats are.
Second, it's the only cruiser that fits dual cannons, and it's the only cruiser with 5 forward tactical slots.
Third: You know what actually equals this cloak? MES I. So any ship in the game can run a simple cloak. It's hardly an advantage. You don't get the dps boost? Well, too bad. That's a kdf faction trait you were lent with the cloaking device, just like the avenger is a factional ship type you were lent. If you want a nausicaan boff, max diplomacy on a couple alts, buy them from jiro and mail them to your main.
KDF has always had free standard cloak it seems on the battle cruisers and only paid for it in handicaps on Raptors. Bops have battle cloaks and have always paid for them.
I am curiuos though, when did this ninja buff to the KDF happen and where if any is the proof. Ive been here since the begining and remember no buff to make the KDF more appealing.
R.I.P
First
The Avenger is a battle cruiser. It has literally zero to do with the Vesta.
The Mogh is a clone of the Avenger. Gorngonzolla already stated they developed these side by side with the Avenger being the groundwork for the Mogh.
Link
SECOND
It's the second Fed cruiser that can fit dual cannons.
The Mogh is the only KDF battle cruiser with 5 forward weapons - so how is this even relevant?
THIRD
MES doesn't grant a 15% to 30% ambush bonus.
MES isn't innately built into the ship "for free".
You are 0 for 3. Try again.
First. It's a battlecruiser. It is not a cruiser. They are different types of ship designed to do different things. Cruisers are fed ships. The avenger is a battlecruiser, a klingon design, enabled for the feds. It's the equivalent of a fed ship with a singularity core. Also, the avenger is just an updated torkaht if anything, if you really want to turn this into a chicken or the egg thing. The dreadnought is a dreadnought cruiser. It's literally a unique ship, but if anything, according to the criteria used to differentiate between the classes, it too would be a battlecruiser.
Battlecruisers, tac heavy cruisers with the innate ability to cloak and mount dual cannons are a kldf only ship class. Their science and engineering capabilities are never as focused as federation cruisers, this means less tank survivability, incorporating a defensive precedent for the cloak alongside the ambush bonus to augment its offensively oriented role.
Science ships, not support ships, are a unique class of ship made available in game and for free to fed players at every tier with science heavy seating, limited tactical abilities, middle sized turn rates, high shield modifiers, and the occasional ability to field pets.
Are you keeping up with me so far? Battlecruisers =/= cruisers and science vessels =/= support vessels?
Now, how many battle cruisers does the fed have at end game? Let's count. Well, there's the avenger and the dread. So we'll call that 2. Remember that number. Can you do that for me? Let's try. If not we can scroll back up.
Ok, now, how many science vessels does the kdf have at endgame? None. They have the support class, whose total of 1 field example show a primary focus on science and a secondary on engineering. The closest things the fed have to that is a grand total of one ship, the DSV. Funny thing, though, if we called the DSV a support vessel and said they were equivalent, then the regent would be a battlecruiser and be equivalent to a kdf battlecruiser. I'm sure it filled that role so well it didn't need to be outclassed by the introduction of an actual battlecruiser. Oh, wait...
Alright. So now that we've established this, let's consider the 2 ships in question.
The vesta: the tier 5 pinnacle combination of all the abilities that define the science ship: pets, relatively limited offensive output, science heavy seating, high shield modifier, medium turn rate, etc etc etc.
The mogh: the tier 5 pinnacle combination of all the abilities that define the battlecruiser: cloak, dual cannons, higher turn rate, weaker tanking abilities than a fed cruiser.
Both are the overkill variant of a ship class not only exclusive to their faction, but whose even closest equivalents are scarce. Both are faction locked.
The mogh is to kdf captains as the vesta is to federation captains.
Now, if we can get through SAT prep, let's address the other 2 points you have issue with.
Second: well, actually, we covered this in my first part. Great, efficiency!
Third: Like I said, that's a factional trait. It's the same uniqueness you were arguing for not even two pages back. Feds don't hunt unsuspecting targets, they don't ambush, that's not their doctrine, they don't even call their ships warships because it sounds too aggressive. The stealth value is equal enough, maybe feds need to sneak. Every ship can sneak. The only ships that get ambush bonuses are romulan and klingon and a choice few of fed ships running romulan tech. Which is exactly how it should be. Faction uniqueness and canon backed. If you want an ambush bonus, play the faction that ambushes. If you don't like that fed can't ambush, you don't like fed.
If anything, the ship count won't be balanced until KDF gets a single variant, tac heavy knockoff of the vesta with a useless console that duplicates an ensign-level ability that we swear is an absolute priveledge to own, seeing as you got a free nerfed knock-off of our flagship battlecruiser.
This is the point you're not understanding. We're not comparing the avenger to the mogh because of similar role within the faction. We're comparing them for numerical convenience. The fact is they should ALL be compared and found balanced, and if not then adjusted. The avenger compared to the mogh compared to the vesta compared to the bortasqu compared to the fleet defiant compared to the fleet vo'quv compared to all of them.
10 console slots (except BoPs, which have their own thing with unis and battlecloak and no one's debating BoPs.)
A certain sliding amount of hull and shields and turn etc depending on their role.
5 boff stations (except again, BoPs)
6-8 weapons except under special circumstances and mitigated by other factors
Look at the avenger. 8 weapons, and stats comparable to the battlecruiser line. Gains a frontal weapon, but loses on ability to fend off a target on its tail. Specialized for attacking a target in front moreso than its counterparts, but still in balance.
Look at the vesta. Standard science ship weapon loadout. Included hangar similar to the HEC and flight deck cruisers. Special abilities that require a console slot to use, as do all others. Aux cannons that drain auxiliary power, which is the bread and butter of a science ship. Excellent at science stuff, but still comparable to the other top-end ships overall.
Look at the Kumari. 5 weapons up front, 5 tactical consoles, crazy fast. Pays for this with only 2 in the rear and defenses made of paper. Extremely specialized, possibly overspecialized.
Look at the bortasqu. Gigantic behemoth of a cruiser. 4/4 weapon loadout and 5 tac consoles. Comes with a cloak. Pays for all this by losing some of its tank and moving like a bus without wheels. The undisputed king of broadside dps before the scimitar came along and one of my favorite ships to fly.
Look at the...you know what, let's not talk about romulans, lol. That there's a tangled mess of game mechanics I'm not prepared to deal with here.
And now look at the mogh. The avenger, but better.
The above ships all have their strengths compared to one another, and they all have their weaknesses. The thing that makes them fun to fly isn't that they have more total value than their counterparts (they don't), but that where their value is distributed tickles us, their captains, in a particular way. They all have the same number of value points in them, but they put their value where it matters most.
The mogh simply has more points than the avenger. And thus commenced the fed-rage, having been provoked.
Uhhh, explain?
One point (at least I think) you are making is that so far the free cross faction stuff has consisted of formerly KDF unique opportunities, Free Battlecruiser,Free carrier, Free raider. A free cross faction sci ship would be great.
One a more positive note I love this! Definitely getting for my KDF tac!
I agree though, that a free cloak just like that out to be balanced out, with either a very slight nerf to stats or some kind of slight avenger buff.
As stated previously ... Make FED cloak a "Device" and not a console ... and give Avenger a fourth device slot .... problem solved.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
It's an elegant solution that doesn't violate canon or muss the hair of anyone at CBS. I'd even take the cloaking "device" without the device slot addition just as a good-faith step in the right direction.
Look, I think your camp and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Numerical balance in this case is irrelevant, it's about equivocal balance. Feds got something Unique to KDF. It comes with a price of a very slight, largely irrelevant, inferiority. As it should. If the tech and design are of KDF origin, then the homefield advantage in this tech would go to the KDF, just like how every romulan ship gets a battle cloak because cloaking originates from romulan tech. The federation advantage is a larger number of defensively strong, exploration themed ships (science ships) that is larger and more specialized than romulan and klingons' options put together.
I understand at first glance, heuristic would have us take a look, say the ships are just reskinnings of each other with the only difference being the addition of a cloak, but that point isn't really fair. But the signifigance of the mogh to the KDF is different than the Avenger's to the fed. Fed got a new toy, a new playstyle, a glimpse of life on the other side from the comfort of your own couch in the form of a high turn rate, cloaking, cannon wielding cruiser with 5 fore weapon slots to offset any lost dps from losing a console slot. KDF watched you get a superior version of something that was up until then, uniquely theirs. The release of the Avenger, rightly so, was met with rage from klingons because (yet again) something uniquely theirs was given to fed. The devs had several options. The first, and the one I would favor, would've been a repass of the torkaht. But there would be some who were attached to their specific build, so that's impractical. The second would've been a form of compromise, something between the tork and avenger, but that's too incomparable and kdf would still find a way to turn it into the short end of the stick. So the third, easiest, and most practical option is to just take the same exact superior-in-every-way-tork-updated-for-insane-power-creep-of-two-years-worth-of-cstore-neglect stats and give the whole package to kdf, killing two birds with one stone. Kdf get a new c-store ship, they get the 5 fore ship they've been asking for, and keeping any fed side power creep from the release of the avenger in relative check.
Honestly, can you really say that feds can't suck it up and let the KDF keep something unique, even something as of limited use as a base cloak and actually mean it? It's ridiculously petty. How many fed escorts should get cloaks because raptors have them while we're at it?
Just because the stats are identical does not mean the factional equivalence is. That is the point. The feds having a battlecruiser made available to them is a treat and a priveldge, like the diplomacy doffs, and like the cloaking device. It is inferior to its origin faction's iteration, it comes with a cost, and it absolutely should. We don't need two factions with identical capabilities. They just need to even out. KDF Cruisers decloak and put out a whomping? Fed cruisers can sit there and take it longer. That's the model the two cruiser subtypes have been built around, that's the model of actual game balance.
There's more here than numbers, and feds don't want to acknowledge that because they've found an unprecedented technicality that sounds egalitarian but in actual is detrimental to all players on the basis that it devalues the game experience by robbing factions of uniqueness and by extent, reason to be experienced. You're actually arguing for a shallower, more uniform game.
Greendragon what do you want me to explain? That the two factions have different equivalent classes that perform different roles better, and because feds have a more limited classification for ships than kdf (3 compared to the kdf's 7) they don't understand the difference between a cruiser and a battle cruiser?
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Battle_Cruiser
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Federation_Cruiser
Come, all. Educate yourselves. Compare stats, compare class traits. They are not the same, they should not become the same.
Feds got the vesta, a super science ship.
KDF got the mogh, a super battle cruiser.
Feds got the avenger, a mogh-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
Kdf got the ______, a vesta-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
I've said all I can. I've posted links, I've compared designs, I've approached it from every angle. The idea that the KDF all of sudden can't continue to specialize in dps output at the expensive of non-combat support craft development is simply incorrect and unfounded. It's false logic. The KDF does something better than the Fed. The fed does something else better than the KDF. That is balance. That is how the game has been balanced. Arguing against that is arguing against balance because of a perceived disparity while simultaneously averting one's eyes from an actual disparity. It's practically child psychology, maybe even intentional self-misdirection.
All I know is, we're at 20-something pages, the ship hasn't even come out yet, and I can't convince my fellow feds that it's fair the our small taste of the enemy's up until now unique specialization rightly comes at a very small price. I'm done here.
Edit: f2p, just saw your post. The point is interesting, but I don't know if it's accurate. The galor and dkora are old, I wonder what their stats would look like if they were released next week. In either way, cross faction ships rightly skirt the line between traditional bi-faction classifcations. Compared to fed cruisers, the galor practically dances. It pays for this by being denied dual cannons. However, its power bonuses are congruent with those of a battle cruiser. Ditto for the Dkora. Compared to kdf BC's, it's a turtle without a cloak, but it has fed cruiser power bonuses. What we see here is a flip flop of the class traits, a larger version of the mirror/prime lockbox ships, if you will. I believe this was intentional on the devs parts, toying with the idea of giving modified, highly priced trade-offs of opposite faction unique ship traits, if that makes sense. However, I think this paired outlier status sets a precedence for exclusion when comparing true federation cruisers and klingon battle cruisers. Null faction ships adhere to neither faction's ship design priorities entirely.
This right here is a very good summary of the pro-mogh position without the bile we've seen from so many people so far. It's a good read.
And I agree, it is a small thing. But I feel that it underlies a larger issue. Still, thank you for taking the time to put together a calm explanatory post.
They've been wanting new end-game KDF ships for 2 years! I'm pretty much happy that they finally got a ship.
However, Feds shouldn't complain about the Mogh.
The Avenger is a first-time battle cruiser for the Feds (I don't expect them to get it amazingly well for the first time), while the KDF had more experience with their own battle cruiser vessels (Vor'cha, Negh'var, K'tinga, Kamarag, etc.), so I don't see why a small increase in crew and other stats are simply going to make the Feds rage.
Also, we don't know the full performance of the new gimmick that the Mogh will have. Real performance and statistics will probably silence the speculation once it is released. Feds have a wider variety of everything to counter the Mogh in combat, but the KDF finally has a new weapon to fight for glory and honor.
Raiders will also get that flanking bonus, so more for the KDF and Romulans!
I think Feds can get off the new ships for now and just refine the old Fed content.
/cranky & without coffee yet
Also:
Stuff like this reminds me of my pen & paper roleplaying games when there was always this one player who instead tried to let his character think for him and get along with a weird situation tried to discuss what in his mind cannot be out of character.
Hint: Doen't this situation tell you how... "popular" J'mpok is as a chancellor?
The mogh also has like 4 times the crew of the avenger. Wel almost 4 times.
Thank you for hearing me. I do understand the issue you've addressed, I even agree that, had it been implemented from the very beginning, it would've been the ideal route. We may be nearing a dangerous precedent with this release, but I am optimistic that it's more of a retroactive bandaid to soothe the KDF, and in the future we'll see releases that more carefully consider factional equivalence to avoid this kind of communal polarization.
I apologize for any perceived bile on my end. I can get pretty engrossed in a good discussion.
I'd spend a console slot to let my fed ships use my Bortasqu' bridge.
whats funny is your actually describing the gorn sci ship. its not klingon, and its clearly inferior. somehow flunky little hull repair drones warranted reduced shield mod and a lame turn rate. think its just about the only c store ship that had to pay a stat penalty for its console ability
The bottom line: the Mogh has a cloak built in, and the Avenger does not.
Does this mean that the Mogh is technically superior to the Avenger? Yes, it does; no one is going to argue this point. It's obvious simply by looking at the two ships side by side.
However... I wouldn't go so far as to say this constitutes an imbalance between factions, or at least certainly not one large enough to make such a fuss over. How much does the cloak benefit the Mogh? It lets it pick when a fight starts, and it gives it a minor damage buff every once in a while. It's an advantage, sure, but if you compared the damage output of a Mogh and a cloakless Avenger running the same build I doubt there would be any great difference.
Thing is, the Mogh may be slightly better, but these two ships are still well balanced relative to any other battlecruiser or cruiser. Balance wise, the Avenger is much closer to the Mogh than the Tor'kaht or the Excelsior. Both ships are going to look pretty much the same compared to a Scimitar. It's just not enough of a big deal to change the Mogh.
I can understand why people think the Avenger is worse and the Mogh is imbalanced... but let's just look at the bigger picture. If the situations were reversed, the Feds would have an inbuilt cloak, but look at the other ships - they wouldn't have any Kumaris, any Vestas, hey, they wouldn't even have any 5 Tac console escorts. Maybe Cryptic was just trying to do something nice for a faction that has received very little love in the past two years.
Besides, as I understand it, the Mogh's higher crew is actually a disadvantage, seeing as it will lose crew faster and take longer to get back to a high repair rate... maybe the devs knew what they were doing and that higher crew count is actually a sneaky way of balancing the inbuilt cloak?
Crew, meh. Bigger crews are more a disadvantage imo as it takes orders of magnitude longer to recover them yet they still die off as quick as ships with less than 100.
In both cases you start with an almost insignificant advantage, as battle draws on, it becomes meaningless or a disadvantage.
We've all got bigger fish to cry over with rom boffs.
So what's the cool down on the defence system? 2 mins I might slots it, 3 mins it becomes one of those worthless consoles.
I wanted you to explain why you said it was an avenger with a sing core, but now I imagine that has something to do with being able to cloak as opposed to sing powers.
I agree wholly that these two obvious carbon copy ships should be balanced, and not one given advantage, no matter how small over the other. It's the honourable thing to do, and as stated by genhauk, a cloak in a device slot sounds like a fair solution.
f2pdrakon, the KDF has been a victim for far longer, and has many more issues to resolve. As was quoted by ussultimatim : http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13983481&postcount=80
This dev has stated that they took a KDF ship, with the intention of giving it to the FEDs. A KDF ship being given away. Looking at the lack of ships KDF side why would this be a top priority? Granted he also stated that the KDF was meant to have an equivalent from the start, but the initial intention is to give something KDF to the FEDs.
All this being said, it shows consideration is being given both ways, especially with the raider buff, and I for one hope to encourage more of it, by buying this ship.
Edit: How good is the console? Perhaps the console is lackluster enough to warrant a free cloak? (Wild speculation here)
"...to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition.., and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Sounds very much like your literary maneuver of refusing to compare the Avenger and Mogh together, despite the Devs themselves saying they are comparable and counterparts as such. Instead you argue the Mogh is like the Vesta, which isn't a remotely proper comparison and argument. Even the manner in which it is presented, it flawed, KDF would need a Science Vessel with identical stats minus the few advantages the Vesta would have over it, to make it even remotely sound.
So the lesson today, kids, is where ever Strawmen are found, KDF die-hards are sure to be around.
But in all seriousness...
Here here! Let us stand side-by-side with our ridged brothers and sisters against the OP space elves!
My feds are almost all rockin the Avenger, I can't wait to get it for my KDFs tomorrow
I might play with em more now !