First. It's a battlecruiser. It is not a cruiser. They are different types of ship designed to do different things. Cruisers are fed ships. The avenger is a battlecruiser, a klingon design, enabled for the feds. It's the equivalent of a fed ship with a singularity core.
Uhhh, explain?
One point (at least I think) you are making is that so far the free cross faction stuff has consisted of formerly KDF unique opportunities, Free Battlecruiser,Free carrier, Free raider. A free cross faction sci ship would be great.
One a more positive note I love this! Definitely getting for my KDF tac!
I agree though, that a free cloak just like that out to be balanced out, with either a very slight nerf to stats or some kind of slight avenger buff.
One point (at least I think) you are making is that so far the free cross faction stuff has consisted of formerly KDF unique opportunities, Free Battlecruiser,Free carrier, Free raider. A free cross faction sci ship would be great.
One a more positive note I love this! Definitely getting for my KDF tac!
I agree though, that a free cloak just like that out to be balanced out, with either a very slight nerf to stats or some kind of slight avenger buff.
As stated previously ... Make FED cloak a "Device" and not a console ... and give Avenger a fourth device slot .... problem solved.
As stated previously ... Make FED cloak a "Device" and not a console ... and give Avenger a fourth device slot .... problem solved.
It's an elegant solution that doesn't violate canon or muss the hair of anyone at CBS. I'd even take the cloaking "device" without the device slot addition just as a good-faith step in the right direction.
Well I don't think the avenger would need another device slot even with the cloak made into a device as most people really wouldn't suffer any lower dps or survivability from having to use a device slot for that.
This is the point you're not understanding. We're not comparing the avenger to the mogh because of similar role within the faction. We're comparing them for numerical convenience. The fact is they should ALL be compared and found balanced, and if not then adjusted. The avenger compared to the mogh compared to the vesta compared to the bortasqu compared to the fleet defiant compared to the fleet vo'quv compared to all of them.
10 console slots (except BoPs, which have their own thing with unis and battlecloak and no one's debating BoPs.)
A certain sliding amount of hull and shields and turn etc depending on their role.
5 boff stations (except again, BoPs)
6-8 weapons except under special circumstances and mitigated by other factors
Look at the avenger. 8 weapons, and stats comparable to the battlecruiser line. Gains a frontal weapon, but loses on ability to fend off a target on its tail. Specialized for attacking a target in front moreso than its counterparts, but still in balance.
Look at the vesta. Standard science ship weapon loadout. Included hangar similar to the HEC and flight deck cruisers. Special abilities that require a console slot to use, as do all others. Aux cannons that drain auxiliary power, which is the bread and butter of a science ship. Excellent at science stuff, but still comparable to the other top-end ships overall.
Look at the Kumari. 5 weapons up front, 5 tactical consoles, crazy fast. Pays for this with only 2 in the rear and defenses made of paper. Extremely specialized, possibly overspecialized.
Look at the bortasqu. Gigantic behemoth of a cruiser. 4/4 weapon loadout and 5 tac consoles. Comes with a cloak. Pays for all this by losing some of its tank and moving like a bus without wheels. The undisputed king of broadside dps before the scimitar came along and one of my favorite ships to fly.
Look at the...you know what, let's not talk about romulans, lol. That there's a tangled mess of game mechanics I'm not prepared to deal with here.
And now look at the mogh. The avenger, but better.
The above ships all have their strengths compared to one another, and they all have their weaknesses. The thing that makes them fun to fly isn't that they have more total value than their counterparts (they don't), but that where their value is distributed tickles us, their captains, in a particular way. They all have the same number of value points in them, but they put their value where it matters most.
The mogh simply has more points than the avenger. And thus commenced the fed-rage, having been provoked.
Look, I think your camp and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Numerical balance in this case is irrelevant, it's about equivocal balance. Feds got something Unique to KDF. It comes with a price of a very slight, largely irrelevant, inferiority. As it should. If the tech and design are of KDF origin, then the homefield advantage in this tech would go to the KDF, just like how every romulan ship gets a battle cloak because cloaking originates from romulan tech. The federation advantage is a larger number of defensively strong, exploration themed ships (science ships) that is larger and more specialized than romulan and klingons' options put together.
I understand at first glance, heuristic would have us take a look, say the ships are just reskinnings of each other with the only difference being the addition of a cloak, but that point isn't really fair. But the signifigance of the mogh to the KDF is different than the Avenger's to the fed. Fed got a new toy, a new playstyle, a glimpse of life on the other side from the comfort of your own couch in the form of a high turn rate, cloaking, cannon wielding cruiser with 5 fore weapon slots to offset any lost dps from losing a console slot. KDF watched you get a superior version of something that was up until then, uniquely theirs. The release of the Avenger, rightly so, was met with rage from klingons because (yet again) something uniquely theirs was given to fed. The devs had several options. The first, and the one I would favor, would've been a repass of the torkaht. But there would be some who were attached to their specific build, so that's impractical. The second would've been a form of compromise, something between the tork and avenger, but that's too incomparable and kdf would still find a way to turn it into the short end of the stick. So the third, easiest, and most practical option is to just take the same exact superior-in-every-way-tork-updated-for-insane-power-creep-of-two-years-worth-of-cstore-neglect stats and give the whole package to kdf, killing two birds with one stone. Kdf get a new c-store ship, they get the 5 fore ship they've been asking for, and keeping any fed side power creep from the release of the avenger in relative check.
Honestly, can you really say that feds can't suck it up and let the KDF keep something unique, even something as of limited use as a base cloak and actually mean it? It's ridiculously petty. How many fed escorts should get cloaks because raptors have them while we're at it?
Just because the stats are identical does not mean the factional equivalence is. That is the point. The feds having a battlecruiser made available to them is a treat and a priveldge, like the diplomacy doffs, and like the cloaking device. It is inferior to its origin faction's iteration, it comes with a cost, and it absolutely should. We don't need two factions with identical capabilities. They just need to even out. KDF Cruisers decloak and put out a whomping? Fed cruisers can sit there and take it longer. That's the model the two cruiser subtypes have been built around, that's the model of actual game balance.
There's more here than numbers, and feds don't want to acknowledge that because they've found an unprecedented technicality that sounds egalitarian but in actual is detrimental to all players on the basis that it devalues the game experience by robbing factions of uniqueness and by extent, reason to be experienced. You're actually arguing for a shallower, more uniform game.
Greendragon what do you want me to explain? That the two factions have different equivalent classes that perform different roles better, and because feds have a more limited classification for ships than kdf (3 compared to the kdf's 7) they don't understand the difference between a cruiser and a battle cruiser?
Come, all. Educate yourselves. Compare stats, compare class traits. They are not the same, they should not become the same.
Feds got the vesta, a super science ship.
KDF got the mogh, a super battle cruiser.
Feds got the avenger, a mogh-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
Kdf got the ______, a vesta-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
I've said all I can. I've posted links, I've compared designs, I've approached it from every angle. The idea that the KDF all of sudden can't continue to specialize in dps output at the expensive of non-combat support craft development is simply incorrect and unfounded. It's false logic. The KDF does something better than the Fed. The fed does something else better than the KDF. That is balance. That is how the game has been balanced. Arguing against that is arguing against balance because of a perceived disparity while simultaneously averting one's eyes from an actual disparity. It's practically child psychology, maybe even intentional self-misdirection.
All I know is, we're at 20-something pages, the ship hasn't even come out yet, and I can't convince my fellow feds that it's fair the our small taste of the enemy's up until now unique specialization rightly comes at a very small price. I'm done here.
Edit: f2p, just saw your post. The point is interesting, but I don't know if it's accurate. The galor and dkora are old, I wonder what their stats would look like if they were released next week. In either way, cross faction ships rightly skirt the line between traditional bi-faction classifcations. Compared to fed cruisers, the galor practically dances. It pays for this by being denied dual cannons. However, its power bonuses are congruent with those of a battle cruiser. Ditto for the Dkora. Compared to kdf BC's, it's a turtle without a cloak, but it has fed cruiser power bonuses. What we see here is a flip flop of the class traits, a larger version of the mirror/prime lockbox ships, if you will. I believe this was intentional on the devs parts, toying with the idea of giving modified, highly priced trade-offs of opposite faction unique ship traits, if that makes sense. However, I think this paired outlier status sets a precedence for exclusion when comparing true federation cruisers and klingon battle cruisers. Null faction ships adhere to neither faction's ship design priorities entirely.
This right here is a very good summary of the pro-mogh position without the bile we've seen from so many people so far. It's a good read.
And I agree, it is a small thing. But I feel that it underlies a larger issue. Still, thank you for taking the time to put together a calm explanatory post.
Though it is an Avenger copy, it is a NEW SHIP FOR THE KDF.
They've been wanting new end-game KDF ships for 2 years! I'm pretty much happy that they finally got a ship.
However, Feds shouldn't complain about the Mogh.
The Avenger is a first-time battle cruiser for the Feds (I don't expect them to get it amazingly well for the first time), while the KDF had more experience with their own battle cruiser vessels (Vor'cha, Negh'var, K'tinga, Kamarag, etc.), so I don't see why a small increase in crew and other stats are simply going to make the Feds rage.
Also, we don't know the full performance of the new gimmick that the Mogh will have. Real performance and statistics will probably silence the speculation once it is released. Feds have a wider variety of everything to counter the Mogh in combat, but the KDF finally has a new weapon to fight for glory and honor.
Raiders will also get that flanking bonus, so more for the KDF and Romulans!
I think Feds can get off the new ships for now and just refine the old Fed content.
Okay, if you go into the Lore of the game when J'mpok killed Martok and became Chancellor he banished Worf from entering the Great Hall. Which is why he is outside of it in the courtyard area. The lore of the story goes along with path of after Lursa and B'tor were killed by the enterprise Ja'rod went and was raised by Torg/House of Torg which were allies of the House of J'mpok and that is why when he came to power they were basically a 3 house alliance but from how the story progresses there is a void of story where the House of Duras and the House of J'mpok now stand after the discommendation of the House of Torg/Torg himself.
So they need to explain the story of how J'mpok and Worf suddenly became best buddies to let him name the ship
Edit: On what the General said the interview of the war being ended if this is something that was suppossed to be done leading up to something they haven't shared yet on the end of the war? LOL
Stuff like this reminds me of my pen & paper roleplaying games when there was always this one player who instead tried to let his character think for him and get along with a weird situation tried to discuss what in his mind cannot be out of character.
Hint: Doen't this situation tell you how... "popular" J'mpok is as a chancellor?
People are complaining about the Mogh being a carbon copy of the Avenger with a integrated combat ability that costs the Avenger 1 console slot.
You mentioned the Kamarag that is a good example, the Kamarag is not a carbon copy of the Ambassador despite both being released at the same time, the Kamarag have significant differences so when looking at both ships on a glance one cannot say one is better, yet the Mogh is a exact copy of the Avenger with a build-in cloak.
The message it gives is that "Cloak is not even worth a device slot", this is Cryptic saying cloaking is so worthless in their eyes they can just slap it on any ship even being a exact mirror of another and say "yep, balanced".
Whats next? A Heavy Escort Carrier with a build-in cloak? Because clearly cloak as far balance goes is worthless if we look at the Mogh/Avenger since same stats, yet one with a build-in cloak.
The mogh also has like 4 times the crew of the avenger. Wel almost 4 times.
This right here is a very good summary of the pro-mogh position without the bile we've seen from so many people so far. It's a good read.
And I agree, it is a small thing. But I feel that it underlies a larger issue. Still, thank you for taking the time to put together a calm explanatory post.
Thank you for hearing me. I do understand the issue you've addressed, I even agree that, had it been implemented from the very beginning, it would've been the ideal route. We may be nearing a dangerous precedent with this release, but I am optimistic that it's more of a retroactive bandaid to soothe the KDF, and in the future we'll see releases that more carefully consider factional equivalence to avoid this kind of communal polarization.
I apologize for any perceived bile on my end. I can get pretty engrossed in a good discussion.
The KDF do not deserve, and should never get a proper sci ship.
And if they do, it should be clearly inferior to any Fed versions because "getting their own Fed-style Sci ship" is its own advantage.
I don't actually want that to happen, because I believe ships should be balanced on their own merits or versus their carbon copies. Also I'd like my KDF sci to not end up with an inferior version of a ship, but that's what your thought process would dictate
whats funny is your actually describing the gorn sci ship. its not klingon, and its clearly inferior. somehow flunky little hull repair drones warranted reduced shield mod and a lame turn rate. think its just about the only c store ship that had to pay a stat penalty for its console ability
It seems to me as though this seems to be making a big deal out of something that is ultimately very minor.
The bottom line: the Mogh has a cloak built in, and the Avenger does not.
Does this mean that the Mogh is technically superior to the Avenger? Yes, it does; no one is going to argue this point. It's obvious simply by looking at the two ships side by side.
However... I wouldn't go so far as to say this constitutes an imbalance between factions, or at least certainly not one large enough to make such a fuss over. How much does the cloak benefit the Mogh? It lets it pick when a fight starts, and it gives it a minor damage buff every once in a while. It's an advantage, sure, but if you compared the damage output of a Mogh and a cloakless Avenger running the same build I doubt there would be any great difference.
Thing is, the Mogh may be slightly better, but these two ships are still well balanced relative to any other battlecruiser or cruiser. Balance wise, the Avenger is much closer to the Mogh than the Tor'kaht or the Excelsior. Both ships are going to look pretty much the same compared to a Scimitar. It's just not enough of a big deal to change the Mogh.
I can understand why people think the Avenger is worse and the Mogh is imbalanced... but let's just look at the bigger picture. If the situations were reversed, the Feds would have an inbuilt cloak, but look at the other ships - they wouldn't have any Kumaris, any Vestas, hey, they wouldn't even have any 5 Tac console escorts. Maybe Cryptic was just trying to do something nice for a faction that has received very little love in the past two years.
Besides, as I understand it, the Mogh's higher crew is actually a disadvantage, seeing as it will lose crew faster and take longer to get back to a high repair rate... maybe the devs knew what they were doing and that higher crew count is actually a sneaky way of balancing the inbuilt cloak?
Regular cloak is worthless, you get 1 chance to use it during battle. I'd never even bother slotting it on the avenger. Will barely get used on my Mogh.
Crew, meh. Bigger crews are more a disadvantage imo as it takes orders of magnitude longer to recover them yet they still die off as quick as ships with less than 100.
In both cases you start with an almost insignificant advantage, as battle draws on, it becomes meaningless or a disadvantage.
We've all got bigger fish to cry over with rom boffs.
So what's the cool down on the defence system? 2 mins I might slots it, 3 mins it becomes one of those worthless consoles.
Greendragon what do you want me to explain? That the two factions have different equivalent classes that perform different roles better, and because feds have a more limited classification for ships than kdf (3 compared to the kdf's 7) they don't understand the difference between a cruiser and a battle cruiser?
I wanted you to explain why you said it was an avenger with a sing core, but now I imagine that has something to do with being able to cloak as opposed to sing powers.
I agree wholly that these two obvious carbon copy ships should be balanced, and not one given advantage, no matter how small over the other. It's the honourable thing to do, and as stated by genhauk, a cloak in a device slot sounds like a fair solution.
This dev has stated that they took a KDF ship, with the intention of giving it to the FEDs. A KDF ship being given away. Looking at the lack of ships KDF side why would this be a top priority? Granted he also stated that the KDF was meant to have an equivalent from the start, but the initial intention is to give something KDF to the FEDs.
All this being said, it shows consideration is being given both ways, especially with the raider buff, and I for one hope to encourage more of it, by buying this ship.
Edit: How good is the console? Perhaps the console is lackluster enough to warrant a free cloak? (Wild speculation here)
Hmm, hey killdozer... As the theme tonight seems to be about educating people, here's a lesson for everyone as well.
Wikipedia:
A straw man, ... is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues. In those cases the false victory is often loudly or conspicuously celebrated.
"...to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition.., and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Sounds very much like your literary maneuver of refusing to compare the Avenger and Mogh together, despite the Devs themselves saying they are comparable and counterparts as such. Instead you argue the Mogh is like the Vesta, which isn't a remotely proper comparison and argument. Even the manner in which it is presented, it flawed, KDF would need a Science Vessel with identical stats minus the few advantages the Vesta would have over it, to make it even remotely sound.
So the lesson today, kids, is where ever Strawmen are found, KDF die-hards are sure to be around.
It's a small advantage, but the scary thing is that it sets a precedent for releasing objectively better ships that don't have to even pretend to be even with the existing ones. We travel down this road long enough and the feds will get a 9-weapon ship, followed by the kdf getting a 10-weapon ship, then the feds getting an 11 and so on.
Damnit. Was hoping for a new flight deck cruiser. Still, good that the KDF has finally joined the 5 forward gun club, even if it is a copy paste of the Avenger.
The known issue about the KDF uniforms is way overdue to be fixed. It's plagued my main since the launch of season 6; four of my seven uniforms are unusable and unmodifiable.
I ... there is no say to not say this ... dont like when someone tried to say two opposite things, if Cloak is not a worthwhile ability then its not and then the Cloak console needs to be revised in this new situation, one cannot say "a Cloak? thats 2000 Zen" and on the other say "Cloak? Meh, worthless" and if Cloak is worthless to not even justify a device slot then I ask why its a console? And we cannot play around and pretend the Galaxy Dreadnought doesnt exist that comes with a build-in ability that is combat worth.
This is an excellent point. Let's ignore the whole "fed vs kdf" balance notion for a while and examine this. What particular brand of doublethink in the Cryptic offices has Gorn saying "Cloak is worthless" and "Cloak is worth the same cost to your ship as this Cool New Thing I just spent half the dev blog and several pictures talking about," in the same breath?
This is an excellent point. Let's ignore the whole "fed vs kdf" balance notion for a while and examine this. What particular brand of doublethink in the Cryptic offices has Gorn saying "Cloak is worthless" and "Cloak is worth the same cost to your ship as this Cool New Thing I just spent half the dev blog and several pictures talking about," in the same breath?
It's thinking about whatever is sure to make them their money. Release a great ship for one side, then re-release a superior version for the other side. It's an extremely dirty but well known trick in the more unscrupulous micro-transaction supported games. This is the kind of thing people feared when PWE bought Cryptic. Lockboxes and their powerful contents are nothing, these kinds of balance discrepancies for profit will destroy the game.
Hmm, hey killdozer... As the theme tonight seems to be about educating people, here's a lesson for everyone as well.
"...to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition.., and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Sounds very much like your literary maneuver of refusing to compare the Avenger and Mogh together, despite the Devs themselves saying they are comparable and counterparts as such. Instead you argue the Mogh is like the Vesta, which isn't a remotely proper comparison and argument. Even the manner in which it is presented, it flawed, KDF would need a Science Vessel with identical stats minus the few advantages the Vesta would have over it, to make it even remotely sound.
So the lesson today, kids, is where ever Strawmen are found, KDF die-hards are sure to be around.
Teongray, I find your post petty and made without full understanding of my stance, especially considering that you decided to wait until after I stated my intentions to leave this thread to address me by name. I also want to note that were I not offended, I would be amused at your need to google a term thrown around by others before trying to test your perception of half of my stance to stick it to. The fact that you so readily need an insult to hurl at me that you'll reach into the toolboxes of others and try to make it fit instead of crafting an argument of your own speaks volumes about your willingness to approach a situation with a logical, open mind. Good job making sure you knew what something you wanted to use meant before you used it though. Thinking before you post is almost as good as reading before your post. Speaking of which...
For the third time tonight, I reiterate: I am a fed player. I have one KDF alt, it is at level 12 and a neglected doff slave who exists solely to mail my fed main contraband. I find myself agreeing with KDF players whose incessant whining I usually abhor because, for once, they're right. This is something they should have and something they should be better at, and feds need to get over it, because their ability to borrow the KDFs defining features of gameplay is a priveledge, not a right. I expect that, as you've previously displayed your willing tendency to not read my posts before confronting me publicly, I will have to remind you of that again.
I reiterate, the straw man here is you. The ship is purported by the same dev you quote to be based on a KDF exclusive ship class. The predecent has been set with the inclusion of the cloaking device fitted to our equivalent raptors from the very beginning- Fed ships can use normally KDF exclusive technology, albeit at a price.
The avenger did not need to exist. It was an excessive, opulent addition to a long history of spoiled, pandered to federation players at the expensive of developer time that would otherwise be spent on one of the other two frankly barren factions. They took the best battle cruiser, made it better, and gave it to the feds. Klingons were rightly mad considering the neglect, the devs realized they got caught, and quickly co-opted what was almost surely the model for a different, future kdf ship and copy pasted the stats in.
Do I think either the mogh or avenger should exist? No. If feds needed a battlecruiser, it probably should've been stuck in a lockbox, god knows they're running thin on ideas there. But if it is going to exist, you know who should get the better battle cruiser? The faction that actually has a lineage of battlecruisers. Why? Because the faction that has the lineage of science vessels has the best science vessels in the game.
That is balance.
I want you to read this next part very carefully, because you can't seem to wrap your mind around it.
The mogh and the avenger are not complimentary. They are not the Oddy and Bortas, they were not developed at the same time inteded to represent the same role for both factions. The avenger was the ship-version of the fed cloaking device. The feds being given a KDF exclusive at a small disadvantage. The mogh was a hastily thought up retroactive bandaid when the community rightfully pointed out the injustice behind the KDF waiting 2+ years for a ship, only to see a ship that was an updated-for-power-creep version of their best design in the whole class handed out to the other faction before they got anything similar at all. I'm not trying to distract from the numerical similarity, in my opinion, that's a blatant embarrassment that should last as a reminder to future developer projects to consider duly spending their time on each faction of paying customers. But in the end, the actual numbers are irrelevant. The ships should not be identical because they are not equivocal in their purpose for existence, and by disregarding that fact, it is in fact you who is applying what you dub a 'stawman argument'
Yes, the devs have said they have identical stats, because they got caught in the spotlight, had to admit it, and righted their wrong. No beef, devs. But seriously, stop giving everything a hangar bay and 5 fore slots and +100 base power insulators. More individual weapons, and more science powers. Debuff some weapon recharge times, stick a crit resist on science vessels, or make it scale positively with defense like susceptibility does with accuracy.
Back to trying to hammer my argument into your skull. Nowhere in gorns post does he say they are sister ships or counterparts. The only similarity they have is in their numerical stats. That is a strawman. They fill two different roles in their lineups, gorn says so in his post, I invite you to go back and actually read it. You are using misdirection here, a half truthed assumption, a heuristic, and a perceived technicality born of misunderstanding of the game basis at the very best.
The avenger is a sample of a "faction specific ship." He cites the precedence set by giving the feds kdf specific perks like the cloaking device-- that they come at a cost. If you want them sans cost, then play the faction that specializes in them.
But no, the roles each ship plays in its fleet is not the same. The avenger is a sample of a kdf ship type previously unavailable to feds. The mogh is the superior culmination of a ship type well established in the klingon faction just like the Vesta is.
You want a fair trade? Go ahead, lop off a hunk of our shield modifier. Make it .9, .85 even. Go crazy with your balance gun, I don't care. Reiterate how fed should have their factional tanking advantage over kdf, even when flying kdf ship classes.
But we get a Vesta with cannon subsystem targeting and 4 tac slots because we may not be the best scientists, but we sure can figure out how to make our guns work better on your ships.
That's the balance that's been set forth in the game so far, not handing out one of everything to everybody. Funny how people in your camp simultaneously berate the idea of participation trophies and then argue the same logic behind them. I do wonder how they even fit at that campfire considering the fact that they indeed are made of straw.
Congratulations if you actually made it this far down, this marks the first of my posts you've read entirely!
So I'm really confused, no one ever complained about the Tor'Kaht having a cloak, yet half the feds on the forum are complaining about the mogh because of some misguided view that the Mogh was supposed to be exactly like the avenger, which the avenger itself was based on copying KDF battlecruisers
KDF players are going to be playing the Mogh the same way they have been playing the Tor'Kaht. So what is the issue people? (By people I mean the same dozen or less people in the forums bringing up the same repetitive arguments) Honestly, the amount of people in the forums is so small the opinions wont make any difference in the developers choices.
So I'm really confused, no one ever complained about the Tor'Kaht having a cloak, yet half the feds on the forum are complaining about the mogh because of some misguided view that the Mogh was supposed to be exactly like the avenger, which the avenger itself was based on KDF battlecruisers
People are going to be playing the Mogh the same way they have been playing the Tor'Kaht, So what is the issue?
Because the Tor'kaht has strengths and drawbacks. Better A, worse B. It balances itself out. Advantages come with costs, in Tor'kaht's case gaining extra mobility, offense, and first-strike ability over the standard cruiser, but in exchange has a weakness weakness in the boff layout and weaker hull and eventually losing a cruiser command.
The Mogh/Avenger thing though (where I and many others disagree with Killdozer's assessment) is a place where we get a straight apples-to-apples comparison. Two ships, same cost, same layout, almost the same release timing, same everything except skin. We've had this scenario in the game several times before, parings such as the Sovereign vs T5 Vor'cha, or Ambassador vs Kamarag, or Patrol Escort vs Qin Raptor, where you have two identical ships, then one of them gives up one thing to gain something else. Trades, not always a 100% fair trade, but an attempt is made at balance.
In this case you stack the two next to each other, identical in every way except for one thing that X has that Y doesn't, and X didn't pay anything to get it. Whether the advantage of X is major or minor, its a freebie, not as an accident or modeling error or questionable trade, just pure bonus just because. Drop 1500 hull or 0.05 shields off the Mogh, just something to pay for that cloak, and 2/3 of this thread vanishes. Its not faction bias or the crying some egotists insecurely wish it was, its just a question of math.
The war continued on and on, raging between the Federation with their Avenger-class, and the Klingon Empire with their brand new Mogh-class. The battles were many, and fierce. Neither side wished to budge in their views against the other. Maybe these battles would simmer down, maybe they wouldn't.
But, one group was feeling far worse than any of the combatants in the battle:
The Ferengi.
They looked at the fighting going on, and then to their own fleet of unused, and more importantly, UNSOLD D'koras simply sitting in space, not gaining profit for them. There would always be those in the Federation and the Klingon Empire, even the Romulan Republic who would also desire a D'kora, but for the Federation and Klingons, that desire was much less than it had been in the past. Their newer ship designs made most of them no longer want to use a D'kora, as the new ships were simply superior enough for it not to matter.
Again they sighed, hoping that the Great River might soon flow their way again.
Moral of the story folks: Ya'll might whine and moan on either side about this or that, but BOTH the Avenger and the Mogh I feel completely obsolete the D'kora. Some have said that it's a bad, slippery slope to have a ship simply be better than an 'equal' ship on another faction, but you know what's worse?
Having a ship for one or more factions completely obsolete a LOCKBOX ship. I know not everyone agrees with the lockbox deal, but those are generally considered absolute top of the line in most cases, and if they start obsoleting those kinds of ships, that will only mean they might release something even more extreme to compensate.
Obviously any point can be argued, and that is my point and my biggest worry: That they will obsolete even more lockbox ships. (Most any other lockbox ship out atm I could argue still has some kind of usage still)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
(What boils down to long-winded hyperbolic drivel)
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
So where is our Vesta counterpart? Oh yeah we don't get one, we got over it. We got a slightly, insignificantly better Battlecruiser? Oh well, get over it. And the Devs, your "Word of God" have, by holy decree, declared the Mogh to be insignificantly better with a built in basic cloak.
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
Dude, you just don't get it. They're the same ship, but the factions receiving them aren't receiving them in the same context. Your so called word of god devs have even articulated this, and have never once said that the ships were so deliberately developed as counterparts as your constituency seems to demand be considered a given. This isn't a one-for-one deal. Battlecruisers to the klingon faction do not equate battlecruisers to the federation faction, and the mogh and avenger were never intended to balance each other out or be equal, that's just how they turned out because of poor dev planning.
Feds have many science ships. The kdf have none. The feds top this off by having the best science ship.
KDF Have many battle cruisers. The feds have none. The kdf top this off by having the best battle cruiser. The feds, however, have been awarded a stripped version of this ship handicapped on the basis that they get something uniquely KDF at a slight price.
In response to this, the feds are saying that it's not fair that their version is lesser, using poorly framed numerical figures and a disregard for prior precedents set in-game to try and justify it.
In actuality, the logical conclusion is that another step is yet to be made, that the KDF receive a stripped, handicapped version of the uniquely fed specialty ship, the Vesta. This is based on the precedence of balance already established in game and un-violated by the in-tandem-but-unintentially-chronologically-proximate release of these two ships.
You talk about math but can't balance an equation.
How's that for a TL;DR? Will you actually read any part of my argument yet?
Because you're saying let's get ice cream, and accusing me of saying let's get hamburgers and expecting the game point, when in reality I'm saying it's too cold out for ice cream and you're replying by saying ice cream louder, but somehow I'm the straw man...
Edit: Also, you accuse me of posting long posts, when in reality only two of my seven have been "long" and most of the things I've called you out on not reading before posting were in my first, short ones. Sheesh, you missed me saying I was a fed twice. The first time was a one line post where that was the only thing I said. Maybe you and Billy Madison have more in common than you intended to portray here...
Comments
Uhhh, explain?
One point (at least I think) you are making is that so far the free cross faction stuff has consisted of formerly KDF unique opportunities, Free Battlecruiser,Free carrier, Free raider. A free cross faction sci ship would be great.
One a more positive note I love this! Definitely getting for my KDF tac!
I agree though, that a free cloak just like that out to be balanced out, with either a very slight nerf to stats or some kind of slight avenger buff.
As stated previously ... Make FED cloak a "Device" and not a console ... and give Avenger a fourth device slot .... problem solved.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
It's an elegant solution that doesn't violate canon or muss the hair of anyone at CBS. I'd even take the cloaking "device" without the device slot addition just as a good-faith step in the right direction.
Look, I think your camp and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Numerical balance in this case is irrelevant, it's about equivocal balance. Feds got something Unique to KDF. It comes with a price of a very slight, largely irrelevant, inferiority. As it should. If the tech and design are of KDF origin, then the homefield advantage in this tech would go to the KDF, just like how every romulan ship gets a battle cloak because cloaking originates from romulan tech. The federation advantage is a larger number of defensively strong, exploration themed ships (science ships) that is larger and more specialized than romulan and klingons' options put together.
I understand at first glance, heuristic would have us take a look, say the ships are just reskinnings of each other with the only difference being the addition of a cloak, but that point isn't really fair. But the signifigance of the mogh to the KDF is different than the Avenger's to the fed. Fed got a new toy, a new playstyle, a glimpse of life on the other side from the comfort of your own couch in the form of a high turn rate, cloaking, cannon wielding cruiser with 5 fore weapon slots to offset any lost dps from losing a console slot. KDF watched you get a superior version of something that was up until then, uniquely theirs. The release of the Avenger, rightly so, was met with rage from klingons because (yet again) something uniquely theirs was given to fed. The devs had several options. The first, and the one I would favor, would've been a repass of the torkaht. But there would be some who were attached to their specific build, so that's impractical. The second would've been a form of compromise, something between the tork and avenger, but that's too incomparable and kdf would still find a way to turn it into the short end of the stick. So the third, easiest, and most practical option is to just take the same exact superior-in-every-way-tork-updated-for-insane-power-creep-of-two-years-worth-of-cstore-neglect stats and give the whole package to kdf, killing two birds with one stone. Kdf get a new c-store ship, they get the 5 fore ship they've been asking for, and keeping any fed side power creep from the release of the avenger in relative check.
Honestly, can you really say that feds can't suck it up and let the KDF keep something unique, even something as of limited use as a base cloak and actually mean it? It's ridiculously petty. How many fed escorts should get cloaks because raptors have them while we're at it?
Just because the stats are identical does not mean the factional equivalence is. That is the point. The feds having a battlecruiser made available to them is a treat and a priveldge, like the diplomacy doffs, and like the cloaking device. It is inferior to its origin faction's iteration, it comes with a cost, and it absolutely should. We don't need two factions with identical capabilities. They just need to even out. KDF Cruisers decloak and put out a whomping? Fed cruisers can sit there and take it longer. That's the model the two cruiser subtypes have been built around, that's the model of actual game balance.
There's more here than numbers, and feds don't want to acknowledge that because they've found an unprecedented technicality that sounds egalitarian but in actual is detrimental to all players on the basis that it devalues the game experience by robbing factions of uniqueness and by extent, reason to be experienced. You're actually arguing for a shallower, more uniform game.
Greendragon what do you want me to explain? That the two factions have different equivalent classes that perform different roles better, and because feds have a more limited classification for ships than kdf (3 compared to the kdf's 7) they don't understand the difference between a cruiser and a battle cruiser?
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Battle_Cruiser
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Federation_Cruiser
Come, all. Educate yourselves. Compare stats, compare class traits. They are not the same, they should not become the same.
Feds got the vesta, a super science ship.
KDF got the mogh, a super battle cruiser.
Feds got the avenger, a mogh-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
Kdf got the ______, a vesta-like design but slightly weaker as a cost for running something unique to the other faction.
I've said all I can. I've posted links, I've compared designs, I've approached it from every angle. The idea that the KDF all of sudden can't continue to specialize in dps output at the expensive of non-combat support craft development is simply incorrect and unfounded. It's false logic. The KDF does something better than the Fed. The fed does something else better than the KDF. That is balance. That is how the game has been balanced. Arguing against that is arguing against balance because of a perceived disparity while simultaneously averting one's eyes from an actual disparity. It's practically child psychology, maybe even intentional self-misdirection.
All I know is, we're at 20-something pages, the ship hasn't even come out yet, and I can't convince my fellow feds that it's fair the our small taste of the enemy's up until now unique specialization rightly comes at a very small price. I'm done here.
Edit: f2p, just saw your post. The point is interesting, but I don't know if it's accurate. The galor and dkora are old, I wonder what their stats would look like if they were released next week. In either way, cross faction ships rightly skirt the line between traditional bi-faction classifcations. Compared to fed cruisers, the galor practically dances. It pays for this by being denied dual cannons. However, its power bonuses are congruent with those of a battle cruiser. Ditto for the Dkora. Compared to kdf BC's, it's a turtle without a cloak, but it has fed cruiser power bonuses. What we see here is a flip flop of the class traits, a larger version of the mirror/prime lockbox ships, if you will. I believe this was intentional on the devs parts, toying with the idea of giving modified, highly priced trade-offs of opposite faction unique ship traits, if that makes sense. However, I think this paired outlier status sets a precedence for exclusion when comparing true federation cruisers and klingon battle cruisers. Null faction ships adhere to neither faction's ship design priorities entirely.
This right here is a very good summary of the pro-mogh position without the bile we've seen from so many people so far. It's a good read.
And I agree, it is a small thing. But I feel that it underlies a larger issue. Still, thank you for taking the time to put together a calm explanatory post.
They've been wanting new end-game KDF ships for 2 years! I'm pretty much happy that they finally got a ship.
However, Feds shouldn't complain about the Mogh.
The Avenger is a first-time battle cruiser for the Feds (I don't expect them to get it amazingly well for the first time), while the KDF had more experience with their own battle cruiser vessels (Vor'cha, Negh'var, K'tinga, Kamarag, etc.), so I don't see why a small increase in crew and other stats are simply going to make the Feds rage.
Also, we don't know the full performance of the new gimmick that the Mogh will have. Real performance and statistics will probably silence the speculation once it is released. Feds have a wider variety of everything to counter the Mogh in combat, but the KDF finally has a new weapon to fight for glory and honor.
Raiders will also get that flanking bonus, so more for the KDF and Romulans!
I think Feds can get off the new ships for now and just refine the old Fed content.
/cranky & without coffee yet
Also:
Stuff like this reminds me of my pen & paper roleplaying games when there was always this one player who instead tried to let his character think for him and get along with a weird situation tried to discuss what in his mind cannot be out of character.
Hint: Doen't this situation tell you how... "popular" J'mpok is as a chancellor?
The mogh also has like 4 times the crew of the avenger. Wel almost 4 times.
Thank you for hearing me. I do understand the issue you've addressed, I even agree that, had it been implemented from the very beginning, it would've been the ideal route. We may be nearing a dangerous precedent with this release, but I am optimistic that it's more of a retroactive bandaid to soothe the KDF, and in the future we'll see releases that more carefully consider factional equivalence to avoid this kind of communal polarization.
I apologize for any perceived bile on my end. I can get pretty engrossed in a good discussion.
I'd spend a console slot to let my fed ships use my Bortasqu' bridge.
whats funny is your actually describing the gorn sci ship. its not klingon, and its clearly inferior. somehow flunky little hull repair drones warranted reduced shield mod and a lame turn rate. think its just about the only c store ship that had to pay a stat penalty for its console ability
The bottom line: the Mogh has a cloak built in, and the Avenger does not.
Does this mean that the Mogh is technically superior to the Avenger? Yes, it does; no one is going to argue this point. It's obvious simply by looking at the two ships side by side.
However... I wouldn't go so far as to say this constitutes an imbalance between factions, or at least certainly not one large enough to make such a fuss over. How much does the cloak benefit the Mogh? It lets it pick when a fight starts, and it gives it a minor damage buff every once in a while. It's an advantage, sure, but if you compared the damage output of a Mogh and a cloakless Avenger running the same build I doubt there would be any great difference.
Thing is, the Mogh may be slightly better, but these two ships are still well balanced relative to any other battlecruiser or cruiser. Balance wise, the Avenger is much closer to the Mogh than the Tor'kaht or the Excelsior. Both ships are going to look pretty much the same compared to a Scimitar. It's just not enough of a big deal to change the Mogh.
I can understand why people think the Avenger is worse and the Mogh is imbalanced... but let's just look at the bigger picture. If the situations were reversed, the Feds would have an inbuilt cloak, but look at the other ships - they wouldn't have any Kumaris, any Vestas, hey, they wouldn't even have any 5 Tac console escorts. Maybe Cryptic was just trying to do something nice for a faction that has received very little love in the past two years.
Besides, as I understand it, the Mogh's higher crew is actually a disadvantage, seeing as it will lose crew faster and take longer to get back to a high repair rate... maybe the devs knew what they were doing and that higher crew count is actually a sneaky way of balancing the inbuilt cloak?
Crew, meh. Bigger crews are more a disadvantage imo as it takes orders of magnitude longer to recover them yet they still die off as quick as ships with less than 100.
In both cases you start with an almost insignificant advantage, as battle draws on, it becomes meaningless or a disadvantage.
We've all got bigger fish to cry over with rom boffs.
So what's the cool down on the defence system? 2 mins I might slots it, 3 mins it becomes one of those worthless consoles.
I wanted you to explain why you said it was an avenger with a sing core, but now I imagine that has something to do with being able to cloak as opposed to sing powers.
I agree wholly that these two obvious carbon copy ships should be balanced, and not one given advantage, no matter how small over the other. It's the honourable thing to do, and as stated by genhauk, a cloak in a device slot sounds like a fair solution.
f2pdrakon, the KDF has been a victim for far longer, and has many more issues to resolve. As was quoted by ussultimatim : http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13983481&postcount=80
This dev has stated that they took a KDF ship, with the intention of giving it to the FEDs. A KDF ship being given away. Looking at the lack of ships KDF side why would this be a top priority? Granted he also stated that the KDF was meant to have an equivalent from the start, but the initial intention is to give something KDF to the FEDs.
All this being said, it shows consideration is being given both ways, especially with the raider buff, and I for one hope to encourage more of it, by buying this ship.
Edit: How good is the console? Perhaps the console is lackluster enough to warrant a free cloak? (Wild speculation here)
"...to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition.., and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Sounds very much like your literary maneuver of refusing to compare the Avenger and Mogh together, despite the Devs themselves saying they are comparable and counterparts as such. Instead you argue the Mogh is like the Vesta, which isn't a remotely proper comparison and argument. Even the manner in which it is presented, it flawed, KDF would need a Science Vessel with identical stats minus the few advantages the Vesta would have over it, to make it even remotely sound.
So the lesson today, kids, is where ever Strawmen are found, KDF die-hards are sure to be around.
But in all seriousness...
Here here! Let us stand side-by-side with our ridged brothers and sisters against the OP space elves!
My feds are almost all rockin the Avenger, I can't wait to get it for my KDFs tomorrow
I might play with em more now !
The known issue about the KDF uniforms is way overdue to be fixed. It's plagued my main since the launch of season 6; four of my seven uniforms are unusable and unmodifiable.
This is an excellent point. Let's ignore the whole "fed vs kdf" balance notion for a while and examine this. What particular brand of doublethink in the Cryptic offices has Gorn saying "Cloak is worthless" and "Cloak is worth the same cost to your ship as this Cool New Thing I just spent half the dev blog and several pictures talking about," in the same breath?
It's thinking about whatever is sure to make them their money. Release a great ship for one side, then re-release a superior version for the other side. It's an extremely dirty but well known trick in the more unscrupulous micro-transaction supported games. This is the kind of thing people feared when PWE bought Cryptic. Lockboxes and their powerful contents are nothing, these kinds of balance discrepancies for profit will destroy the game.
Teongray, I find your post petty and made without full understanding of my stance, especially considering that you decided to wait until after I stated my intentions to leave this thread to address me by name. I also want to note that were I not offended, I would be amused at your need to google a term thrown around by others before trying to test your perception of half of my stance to stick it to. The fact that you so readily need an insult to hurl at me that you'll reach into the toolboxes of others and try to make it fit instead of crafting an argument of your own speaks volumes about your willingness to approach a situation with a logical, open mind. Good job making sure you knew what something you wanted to use meant before you used it though. Thinking before you post is almost as good as reading before your post. Speaking of which...
For the third time tonight, I reiterate: I am a fed player. I have one KDF alt, it is at level 12 and a neglected doff slave who exists solely to mail my fed main contraband. I find myself agreeing with KDF players whose incessant whining I usually abhor because, for once, they're right. This is something they should have and something they should be better at, and feds need to get over it, because their ability to borrow the KDFs defining features of gameplay is a priveledge, not a right. I expect that, as you've previously displayed your willing tendency to not read my posts before confronting me publicly, I will have to remind you of that again.
I reiterate, the straw man here is you. The ship is purported by the same dev you quote to be based on a KDF exclusive ship class. The predecent has been set with the inclusion of the cloaking device fitted to our equivalent raptors from the very beginning- Fed ships can use normally KDF exclusive technology, albeit at a price.
The avenger did not need to exist. It was an excessive, opulent addition to a long history of spoiled, pandered to federation players at the expensive of developer time that would otherwise be spent on one of the other two frankly barren factions. They took the best battle cruiser, made it better, and gave it to the feds. Klingons were rightly mad considering the neglect, the devs realized they got caught, and quickly co-opted what was almost surely the model for a different, future kdf ship and copy pasted the stats in.
Do I think either the mogh or avenger should exist? No. If feds needed a battlecruiser, it probably should've been stuck in a lockbox, god knows they're running thin on ideas there. But if it is going to exist, you know who should get the better battle cruiser? The faction that actually has a lineage of battlecruisers. Why? Because the faction that has the lineage of science vessels has the best science vessels in the game.
That is balance.
I want you to read this next part very carefully, because you can't seem to wrap your mind around it.
The mogh and the avenger are not complimentary. They are not the Oddy and Bortas, they were not developed at the same time inteded to represent the same role for both factions. The avenger was the ship-version of the fed cloaking device. The feds being given a KDF exclusive at a small disadvantage. The mogh was a hastily thought up retroactive bandaid when the community rightfully pointed out the injustice behind the KDF waiting 2+ years for a ship, only to see a ship that was an updated-for-power-creep version of their best design in the whole class handed out to the other faction before they got anything similar at all. I'm not trying to distract from the numerical similarity, in my opinion, that's a blatant embarrassment that should last as a reminder to future developer projects to consider duly spending their time on each faction of paying customers. But in the end, the actual numbers are irrelevant. The ships should not be identical because they are not equivocal in their purpose for existence, and by disregarding that fact, it is in fact you who is applying what you dub a 'stawman argument'
Yes, the devs have said they have identical stats, because they got caught in the spotlight, had to admit it, and righted their wrong. No beef, devs. But seriously, stop giving everything a hangar bay and 5 fore slots and +100 base power insulators. More individual weapons, and more science powers. Debuff some weapon recharge times, stick a crit resist on science vessels, or make it scale positively with defense like susceptibility does with accuracy.
Back to trying to hammer my argument into your skull. Nowhere in gorns post does he say they are sister ships or counterparts. The only similarity they have is in their numerical stats. That is a strawman. They fill two different roles in their lineups, gorn says so in his post, I invite you to go back and actually read it. You are using misdirection here, a half truthed assumption, a heuristic, and a perceived technicality born of misunderstanding of the game basis at the very best.
The avenger is a sample of a "faction specific ship." He cites the precedence set by giving the feds kdf specific perks like the cloaking device-- that they come at a cost. If you want them sans cost, then play the faction that specializes in them.
But no, the roles each ship plays in its fleet is not the same. The avenger is a sample of a kdf ship type previously unavailable to feds. The mogh is the superior culmination of a ship type well established in the klingon faction just like the Vesta is.
You want a fair trade? Go ahead, lop off a hunk of our shield modifier. Make it .9, .85 even. Go crazy with your balance gun, I don't care. Reiterate how fed should have their factional tanking advantage over kdf, even when flying kdf ship classes.
But we get a Vesta with cannon subsystem targeting and 4 tac slots because we may not be the best scientists, but we sure can figure out how to make our guns work better on your ships.
That's the balance that's been set forth in the game so far, not handing out one of everything to everybody. Funny how people in your camp simultaneously berate the idea of participation trophies and then argue the same logic behind them. I do wonder how they even fit at that campfire considering the fact that they indeed are made of straw.
Congratulations if you actually made it this far down, this marks the first of my posts you've read entirely!
KDF players are going to be playing the Mogh the same way they have been playing the Tor'Kaht. So what is the issue people? (By people I mean the same dozen or less people in the forums bringing up the same repetitive arguments) Honestly, the amount of people in the forums is so small the opinions wont make any difference in the developers choices.
Because the Tor'kaht has strengths and drawbacks. Better A, worse B. It balances itself out. Advantages come with costs, in Tor'kaht's case gaining extra mobility, offense, and first-strike ability over the standard cruiser, but in exchange has a weakness weakness in the boff layout and weaker hull and eventually losing a cruiser command.
The Mogh/Avenger thing though (where I and many others disagree with Killdozer's assessment) is a place where we get a straight apples-to-apples comparison. Two ships, same cost, same layout, almost the same release timing, same everything except skin. We've had this scenario in the game several times before, parings such as the Sovereign vs T5 Vor'cha, or Ambassador vs Kamarag, or Patrol Escort vs Qin Raptor, where you have two identical ships, then one of them gives up one thing to gain something else. Trades, not always a 100% fair trade, but an attempt is made at balance.
In this case you stack the two next to each other, identical in every way except for one thing that X has that Y doesn't, and X didn't pay anything to get it. Whether the advantage of X is major or minor, its a freebie, not as an accident or modeling error or questionable trade, just pure bonus just because. Drop 1500 hull or 0.05 shields off the Mogh, just something to pay for that cloak, and 2/3 of this thread vanishes. Its not faction bias or the crying some egotists insecurely wish it was, its just a question of math.
I will leave a very small story for you all:
The war continued on and on, raging between the Federation with their Avenger-class, and the Klingon Empire with their brand new Mogh-class. The battles were many, and fierce. Neither side wished to budge in their views against the other. Maybe these battles would simmer down, maybe they wouldn't.
But, one group was feeling far worse than any of the combatants in the battle:
The Ferengi.
They looked at the fighting going on, and then to their own fleet of unused, and more importantly, UNSOLD D'koras simply sitting in space, not gaining profit for them. There would always be those in the Federation and the Klingon Empire, even the Romulan Republic who would also desire a D'kora, but for the Federation and Klingons, that desire was much less than it had been in the past. Their newer ship designs made most of them no longer want to use a D'kora, as the new ships were simply superior enough for it not to matter.
Again they sighed, hoping that the Great River might soon flow their way again.
Moral of the story folks: Ya'll might whine and moan on either side about this or that, but BOTH the Avenger and the Mogh I feel completely obsolete the D'kora. Some have said that it's a bad, slippery slope to have a ship simply be better than an 'equal' ship on another faction, but you know what's worse?
Having a ship for one or more factions completely obsolete a LOCKBOX ship. I know not everyone agrees with the lockbox deal, but those are generally considered absolute top of the line in most cases, and if they start obsoleting those kinds of ships, that will only mean they might release something even more extreme to compensate.
Obviously any point can be argued, and that is my point and my biggest worry: That they will obsolete even more lockbox ships. (Most any other lockbox ship out atm I could argue still has some kind of usage still)
There was nothing malicious, I had to tend to real-life, and replied when I returned.
Though I could swear you just try to drown your opponents in saga-length bouts of over-spun ramblings. A simple saying comes to mind, one related to someone over-explaining and over-justifying their state of being wrong.
"My dear, you doth protest too much."
Rather than responding with another essay, I'll keep it short, sweet, and layman's. Anyone with a degree of rational thought can see the Avenger and Mogh are counterparts and comparable to one another. Yes battle cruisers are primarily a KDF thing, but the Devs, the closest thing to 'Word of God' on the matter short of CBS, have indicated that these two are ment to be the dynamic pairing. Not your ill-conceived notion that the Vesta is the Mogh's counterpart to compare against.
It's so painfully basic it boggles the mind that you would invest so much time into creating and then defending such a convoluted concept as the one you proposed. I don't have the time nor care to devote such equal time into trying to debunk a frivolous thing such as it, myself.
TL;DR for our cheap-seat friends.
So where is our Vesta counterpart? Oh yeah we don't get one, we got over it. We got a slightly, insignificantly better Battlecruiser? Oh well, get over it. And the Devs, your "Word of God" have, by holy decree, declared the Mogh to be insignificantly better with a built in basic cloak.
Dude, you just don't get it. They're the same ship, but the factions receiving them aren't receiving them in the same context. Your so called word of god devs have even articulated this, and have never once said that the ships were so deliberately developed as counterparts as your constituency seems to demand be considered a given. This isn't a one-for-one deal. Battlecruisers to the klingon faction do not equate battlecruisers to the federation faction, and the mogh and avenger were never intended to balance each other out or be equal, that's just how they turned out because of poor dev planning.
Feds have many science ships. The kdf have none. The feds top this off by having the best science ship.
KDF Have many battle cruisers. The feds have none. The kdf top this off by having the best battle cruiser. The feds, however, have been awarded a stripped version of this ship handicapped on the basis that they get something uniquely KDF at a slight price.
In response to this, the feds are saying that it's not fair that their version is lesser, using poorly framed numerical figures and a disregard for prior precedents set in-game to try and justify it.
In actuality, the logical conclusion is that another step is yet to be made, that the KDF receive a stripped, handicapped version of the uniquely fed specialty ship, the Vesta. This is based on the precedence of balance already established in game and un-violated by the in-tandem-but-unintentially-chronologically-proximate release of these two ships.
You talk about math but can't balance an equation.
How's that for a TL;DR? Will you actually read any part of my argument yet?
Because you're saying let's get ice cream, and accusing me of saying let's get hamburgers and expecting the game point, when in reality I'm saying it's too cold out for ice cream and you're replying by saying ice cream louder, but somehow I'm the straw man...
Edit: Also, you accuse me of posting long posts, when in reality only two of my seven have been "long" and most of the things I've called you out on not reading before posting were in my first, short ones. Sheesh, you missed me saying I was a fed twice. The first time was a one line post where that was the only thing I said. Maybe you and Billy Madison have more in common than you intended to portray here...