the cloaking device should be changed from a console to a device, and the avenger should get a 4th device slot. then theres parity, then 1 ship isn't +.1 over the other. helps the galaxy X and defiant as well.
I never complained about the BortaSqu' and know many KDF players that don't have a problem with it.
What I do hear and see are a lot of FED players "vicious, bitter, and ungrateful" about the Avenger-class; which actually was a good ship when flown like a Klingon battle cruiser rather than a Federation line cruiser.
Pot meet kettle. Just dig in the forums a bit, you'll find all the Bortas vitriol still simmering. The Avenger is a great ship, she just now is completely eclipsed by what should be a counterpart.
When referred in any series the word Cloak usually is followed by the word Device so it would be fitting that a Cloaking Device would be a Devise rather than a console.
QFT. The frustration is that to get the same functionality in a ship which comes with the ability to do so, it costs more, both financially and in potential ship performance.
More blather. We KDF have to buy the ship like you do and the cloak capabilities on the Avenger is a bonus for the feds (so you couldnt whine its not a real battle cruiser) since you are not suppossed to have any new cloaking vessels.
It's just an example of something useful. CPB takes a boff ability slot. If the federation had a built-in mechanic of similar usefulness to cloaking, there'd be a lot less complaining. But the large ship selection or large playerbase doesn't help when you're in combat and have to stick with what you brought.
I think thats just a pipe dream , but realistically , if you're going into pvp against klingons without CPB you are in for a world of hurt anyway , and cloakers in pve arent exactly that much of a threat
Not comparable, apples to oranges; like any KDF Fanboy argument. None of you can ever do anything but strawman.
I've never understood why you can't compare apples and oranges. You can look at their vitamin C content, the pH of their juice, ease of peeling, preferences in eating among 4 year olds, etc. etc. This isn't a game about fine tuned strategic ship balance and never has been. Take a look at the (at the time of its release) extremely popular Atrox carrier, compared to the generally superior Vo'quv which doesn't even cost any money to get! What's far more important for the game, IMO, is having three relatively balanced factions in their entirety, from the perspective of how enjoyable they are to play. It's that enjoyment that gets people to buy products, and thus keeps the game running at all. In that way comparing "has cloaking ability" to "has battle cloak and singularity core" to "has more variety of ships and generally more content" is a perfectly valid argument.
I think thats just a pipe dream , but realistically , if you're going into pvp against klingons without CPB you are in for a world of hurt anyway , and cloakers in pve arent exactly that much of a threat
Heck ... Cloaks now exist on both sides of a PvP match thanks to the Romulans anyway ... and they have cruisers with battle cloak.
That said, I like the Mogh. It's a good ship and looks tough. If I could actually stomach being associated with the KDF whiner babies and played my Klingon as anything more than a dilithium mule, I'd actually consider buying this. What bothers me, however, is that the Mogh is clearly an Avenger+ and the entire KDF playerbase is frothing at the mouth screaming "OMGWEDESERVEBETTERSHIPSTHANYOUYOUENTITLEDSILVERSPOONEDJERKSGODIEINAFIREBECAUSEWEDESERVEEVERYTHINGBETTERTHANYOU!"
Your victim mentality is no longer warranted, amusing, or cute. Grow up.
But then, I'll just be dismissed as a silver-spooned entitled Fed fanboy because I'm not a poor, underprivileged, horrifically abused KDF fanboy and the cycle continues.
You are selectively choosing to view the kdf as entitled brats--the kdf merely wants as rich an experience as the federation and it is not your place to say otherwise. The spiel is that the whiners are not the kdf. The whiners are the Feds whenever the kdf gets something new, and you call the kdf members that rise to the defense of their property "whiners". It's not the kdf that needs to grow up, it's the whiny members of the federation that need to deal the hand they're dealt--they're more privileged and no forum war I've seen yet has validly argued why the Feds deserve more s***
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy"~ The Doctor
In order for the Avenger to cloak it doubles the cost as the Cloaking console must be acquired from the Galaxy-X or the Defiant-R that doubles the cost and naturally its use requires a console slot.
Now the Mogh have the exact same stats yet its come with a build-in ability that costs a console slot on the Avenger, simply put Mogh is a superior ship to the Avenger.
This is the second time, we got the Atrox that is a Vo'Quv without frigates ... dont go around saying ships are balanced because in this case they are not and its not the question of "Feds getting something that is unique to the KDF" when both ships are a exact match yet one ship have a build-in ability the other lacks and of course the KDF is thankful, they just got a +1 over the Federation ships again.
Exclusionary thinking will not win you an argument. If anything having to pay for the cloaking device seperately is how it should be. If the feds are going to take KDF uniqueness and run it, the least cryptic could do is make it expensive. If you want a free cloak, I suggest you make a free klingon player and run a free ship with a free cloak. Custom orders cost extra, just ask your nearest car dealer. Even better, if you have to have a cloak, invest some skill points in stealth like a good cloaker and run MES. Even at its base, the stats are nigh identical to the base cloak the device offers. Before the DAKKA/HEAL duality we live in now, those strange guys on your bridge in blue shirts did serve a purpose aside from representing the other end of the shirt-color-spectrum.
You're still arguing assuming that there should even be a mogh in a universe where the torkaht exists. The avenger should be unique and left alone. Its capabilities represent a conglomeration of all encountered klingon cruiser tech combined into one fed actualization of concept. It's a special fed recreation of a KDF ship to the best of fed's abilities. The mogh is another advancement, another drop in the bucket of kdf bcs. Why would it be downgraded from what they're already capable of? Is the torkaht OP? no? So then how is the mogh? Kdf battlecruisers are superior to Fed battle cruisers just like fed cruisers can tank and fed science vessels exist.
And while we're telling each other what to do and not do, how about this? Any time you feel bad because a klingon in the urinal stall next to you whips out a bigger disrupter, why don't you ask how long he'll last tanking compared to your fed, or how much it would cost him to come as close to tanking effectiveness?
On the atrox, carrier pets are apples and oranges. KDF get bops. Feds get battle cloaking shield draining stealth fighters with antiproton sweep. With the addition of romulans, I bet there's a few kdf carrier captains who would love 12 fighters with antiproton sweep, but there's no threads about that because it's almost as if KDF players at least understand the idea that the factions should, in fact, be apples and oranges. Uniqueness is important, and that's the point here. If you want frigates on a carrier that's an atrox, get a free vo quv and some free brels, you could do it in an afternoon. If you want a specialized federation version of a klingon ship, you should have to pay, and you should receive a product that isn't 100% knock off because that kind of "he has one, I want one!" thinking is what ruins games.
I salute you sir, for not stepping down in the face of bulls***.
LOL ... And I salute you for your last before this one ... Excellent points.
One day the KDF players will be understood, and I always tend to see the "ideals" of what the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be reflected among the KDF player base.
::: just the way it seems some days ... more so if one is looking at the posts of the forums.
Don't get me wrong ... I know MANY good and true and honorable FED players out there ... but they aren't the ones we hear posting.
Looking forward to claiming my new flagship tomorrow.
There is another point that makes the new ship superior to the Avanger: Boffs
KDF can stack 5 Pirate traits, so they can easily out-dps the Avanger.
Where is the good old human Leadership as the Federation counter to Pirate and Operative trait's?
Nerfed too Oblivion because KDF whined about it. Now after Legacy of Romulus and the Pirate fix,
bring the human Trait back please.
I was gonna say I'm happy with the nice (expected) stats but maybe you could throw 1k hull away, or 1 device slot to at least symbolically balance the fact the 'Mogh=Avenger+cloak' (and hopefully apease some angered FEDS), but then you explained your point of view:
Correct. Standard Cloak isn't enough to warrant reducing the effectiveness of this ship or improving the Avenger in my opinion. The massive advantage that the Avenger has is that it gives fed players the ability to fly a faction specific battlecruiser, which is a ship class previously unavailable to them.
To give you a bit of insight into both how the Avenger and Mogh were created. When we make new ships we want to make them attractive and as balanced as possible. When creating the Avenger Battlecruiser I initially tried balancing it around Starfleet cruisers. This led me to a dead end, as a battlecruiser it would end being way too similar to existing fed cruisers and not be comparable to kdf battlecruisers and that was ultimately my goal.
So, I began listing out all the tier 5 kdf battlecruiser stats side by side (along with a few choice fed cruisers) and found a niche that hadn't been hit by either faction. That's where the Avenger's stats came from, and ultimately the Mogh. It was always the plan to release a kdf equivalent of the Avenger.
Ultimately though, some concessions had to be made for the Avenger, which in my opinion is a super rock solid ship. It's starfleet, so it shouldn't have cloak without some cost. This precedence has been set with both the Galaxy X and the Tactical Escort Retrofit. It would be a slippery slope to start giving fed ships free cloaking devices.
The example you're giving is true for Fed Escorts and KDF Raptors, but KDF Battlecruisers do not have this drawback. Had I reduced the shield mod on the Mogh, it would be an inferior ship to the Avenger and players would be making different suggestions now.
Had we reduced the Mogh's shield modifier it would have the lowest shield modifier of any Tier 5 KDF battlecruiser making it less desirable.
Had we given the Avenger Cloak, we'd embark on a slippery slope where similar fed ships would be expected to have cloak.
Had we given the Mogh less crew, it would be inconsistent with KDF battlecruisers as they have large crews:
-Vor'cha has 1500
-Negh'Var has 2500
-Tor'Kaht has 1500
-Kamarag has 700
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
So I guess I'll just have fun with it.
EDIT: Still,what would say 500 less hull cost us mighty Klingons? Huh? It'd be something at least...
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
That said, I like the Mogh. It's a good ship and looks tough. If I could actually stomach being associated with the KDF whiner babies and played my Klingon as anything more than a dilithium mule, I'd actually consider buying this. What bothers me, however, is that the Mogh is clearly an Avenger+ and the entire KDF playerbase is frothing at the mouth screaming "OMGWEDESERVEBETTERSHIPSTHANYOUYOUENTITLEDSILVERSPOONEDJERKSGODIEINAFIREBECAUSEWEDESERVEEVERYTHINGBETTERTHANYOU!"
Your victim mentality is no longer warranted, amusing, or cute. Grow up.
But then, I'll just be dismissed as a silver-spooned entitled Fed fanboy because I'm not a poor, underprivileged, horrifically abused KDF fanboy and the cycle continues.
golf clap. Stamp your feet more your fracking baby.
Flat out, I'm glad that the KDF is getting something new added to the shipyards. I primarily play Fed, but it was still kinda grating on my nerves to see the KDF side get kinda screwed on 'Power Creep' in regards to new stuff time and again.
And for all of you people whining about the 'integrated cloak' the Mogh has which the Avenger does not. Grow. The. Hell. Up. It's not game breaking, it's not the end of the world just because they get one console slot freed up which you don't and by the way, you don't HAVE to load the Cloak on the Avenger do you? Unless your entire build is revolved around the Cloaking Device Console for Fed side, (If it is, might I just say this, "You're doing it WRONG!"). Then the Cloak for the Avenger is purely optional, and really, doesn't add a whole hell of a lot anyways.
There is another point that makes the new ship superior to the Avanger: Boffs
KDF can stack 5 Pirate traits, so they can easily out-dps the Avanger.
Where is the good old human Leadership as the Federation counter to Pirate and Operative trait's?
Nerfed too Oblivion because KDF whined about it. Now after Legacy of Romulus and the Pirate fix,
bring the human Trait back please.
KDF didnt whine over your leadership trait. We didnt get it changed.
There is another point that makes the new ship superior to the Avanger: Boffs
KDF can stack 5 Pirate traits, so they can easily out-dps the Avanger.
Where is the good old human Leadership as the Federation counter to Pirate and Operative trait's?
Nerfed too Oblivion because KDF whined about it. Now after Legacy of Romulus and the Pirate fix,
bring the human Trait back please.
Wait what? Leadership got nerfed? I swear I saw a hull repair buff stat on my raptor... [goes to search forums]
P.S. looking forward to supporting the Empire with this ship. I agree it has too many Engineer and not enough Tac, would love to be able to swap that COM position but you can't always get what you want and I'll adapt. Might even have fun exploring other BOFF layouts!
I jest, but honestly, I'm not too bothered by the +1ness of the Mogh vs. the Avenger, in this instance, but I do think it's a slippery slope we should be avoiding.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Heck ... Cloaks now exist on both sides of a PvP match thanks to the Romulans anyway ... and they have cruisers with battle cloak.
Yeah, if the Mogh got a Battlecloak, then I could understand the rage. But this is just a basic cloak, standard on all KDF ships, its a KDF play-style. So what? Its not like its a Romulan Mogai that can uncloak and instagib any player no matter what and escape through battlecloak.
Feds don't generally have this type of play-style but were given it through the Avenger. You can play it like a KDF battlecruiser, although at the cost of a console slot. Or you can play it like a more tactically focused federation cruiser without any losses, it can still put dual cannons on, your choice.
If you actually prefer the KDF play-style and want to take it as far as you can go... play KDF. The Feds have their own niches and so do the KDF.
Also dont reply, I forgot that I really dont argue with "KDF players" ...
Funny thing, if you read my first post you'd know that I only have a level 12 kdf alt I don't run. I'm a blue through and through. But I'm a blue that cares about stats. I considered the whole part of your agument. It was fallacious. We don't need two identical factions. We need two balanced factions. The terms are not interchangeable.
Captains, please keep the conversation civil and constructive. It's okay to be passionate, but there is no need to resort to name calling. So I'll give everyone a chance to edit their posts of any offending material.
Comments
Give this man a medal.
Pot meet kettle. Just dig in the forums a bit, you'll find all the Bortas vitriol still simmering. The Avenger is a great ship, she just now is completely eclipsed by what should be a counterpart.
When referred in any series the word Cloak usually is followed by the word Device so it would be fitting that a Cloaking Device would be a Devise rather than a console.
More blather. We KDF have to buy the ship like you do and the cloak capabilities on the Avenger is a bonus for the feds (so you couldnt whine its not a real battle cruiser) since you are not suppossed to have any new cloaking vessels.
Hows Dorothy?
R.I.P
I think thats just a pipe dream , but realistically , if you're going into pvp against klingons without CPB you are in for a world of hurt anyway , and cloakers in pve arent exactly that much of a threat
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
I've never understood why you can't compare apples and oranges. You can look at their vitamin C content, the pH of their juice, ease of peeling, preferences in eating among 4 year olds, etc. etc. This isn't a game about fine tuned strategic ship balance and never has been. Take a look at the (at the time of its release) extremely popular Atrox carrier, compared to the generally superior Vo'quv which doesn't even cost any money to get! What's far more important for the game, IMO, is having three relatively balanced factions in their entirety, from the perspective of how enjoyable they are to play. It's that enjoyment that gets people to buy products, and thus keeps the game running at all. In that way comparing "has cloaking ability" to "has battle cloak and singularity core" to "has more variety of ships and generally more content" is a perfectly valid argument.
Heck ... Cloaks now exist on both sides of a PvP match thanks to the Romulans anyway ... and they have cruisers with battle cloak.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
You are selectively choosing to view the kdf as entitled brats--the kdf merely wants as rich an experience as the federation and it is not your place to say otherwise. The spiel is that the whiners are not the kdf. The whiners are the Feds whenever the kdf gets something new, and you call the kdf members that rise to the defense of their property "whiners". It's not the kdf that needs to grow up, it's the whiny members of the federation that need to deal the hand they're dealt--they're more privileged and no forum war I've seen yet has validly argued why the Feds deserve more s***
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
I salute you sir, for not stepping down in the face of bulls***.
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
Damn straight.
Exclusionary thinking will not win you an argument. If anything having to pay for the cloaking device seperately is how it should be. If the feds are going to take KDF uniqueness and run it, the least cryptic could do is make it expensive. If you want a free cloak, I suggest you make a free klingon player and run a free ship with a free cloak. Custom orders cost extra, just ask your nearest car dealer. Even better, if you have to have a cloak, invest some skill points in stealth like a good cloaker and run MES. Even at its base, the stats are nigh identical to the base cloak the device offers. Before the DAKKA/HEAL duality we live in now, those strange guys on your bridge in blue shirts did serve a purpose aside from representing the other end of the shirt-color-spectrum.
You're still arguing assuming that there should even be a mogh in a universe where the torkaht exists. The avenger should be unique and left alone. Its capabilities represent a conglomeration of all encountered klingon cruiser tech combined into one fed actualization of concept. It's a special fed recreation of a KDF ship to the best of fed's abilities. The mogh is another advancement, another drop in the bucket of kdf bcs. Why would it be downgraded from what they're already capable of? Is the torkaht OP? no? So then how is the mogh? Kdf battlecruisers are superior to Fed battle cruisers just like fed cruisers can tank and fed science vessels exist.
And while we're telling each other what to do and not do, how about this? Any time you feel bad because a klingon in the urinal stall next to you whips out a bigger disrupter, why don't you ask how long he'll last tanking compared to your fed, or how much it would cost him to come as close to tanking effectiveness?
On the atrox, carrier pets are apples and oranges. KDF get bops. Feds get battle cloaking shield draining stealth fighters with antiproton sweep. With the addition of romulans, I bet there's a few kdf carrier captains who would love 12 fighters with antiproton sweep, but there's no threads about that because it's almost as if KDF players at least understand the idea that the factions should, in fact, be apples and oranges. Uniqueness is important, and that's the point here. If you want frigates on a carrier that's an atrox, get a free vo quv and some free brels, you could do it in an afternoon. If you want a specialized federation version of a klingon ship, you should have to pay, and you should receive a product that isn't 100% knock off because that kind of "he has one, I want one!" thinking is what ruins games.
LOL ... And I salute you for your last before this one ... Excellent points.
One day the KDF players will be understood, and I always tend to see the "ideals" of what the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be reflected among the KDF player base.
::: just the way it seems some days ... more so if one is looking at the posts of the forums.
Don't get me wrong ... I know MANY good and true and honorable FED players out there ... but they aren't the ones we hear posting.
Looking forward to claiming my new flagship tomorrow.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
KDF can stack 5 Pirate traits, so they can easily out-dps the Avanger.
Where is the good old human Leadership as the Federation counter to Pirate and Operative trait's?
Nerfed too Oblivion because KDF whined about it. Now after Legacy of Romulus and the Pirate fix,
bring the human Trait back please.
So I guess I'll just have fun with it.
EDIT: Still,what would say 500 less hull cost us mighty Klingons? Huh? It'd be something at least...
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
R.I.P
And for all of you people whining about the 'integrated cloak' the Mogh has which the Avenger does not. Grow. The. Hell. Up. It's not game breaking, it's not the end of the world just because they get one console slot freed up which you don't and by the way, you don't HAVE to load the Cloak on the Avenger do you? Unless your entire build is revolved around the Cloaking Device Console for Fed side, (If it is, might I just say this, "You're doing it WRONG!"). Then the Cloak for the Avenger is purely optional, and really, doesn't add a whole hell of a lot anyways.
KDF didnt whine over your leadership trait. We didnt get it changed.
R.I.P
Wait what? Leadership got nerfed? I swear I saw a hull repair buff stat on my raptor... [goes to search forums]
P.S. looking forward to supporting the Empire with this ship. I agree it has too many Engineer and not enough Tac, would love to be able to swap that COM position but you can't always get what you want and I'll adapt. Might even have fun exploring other BOFF layouts!
Addicted: January 2012
batlh QIH 'ej!
Really nice.
But since I am getting a fleet vet ship soon, i don't see it as better than the vet ship.
Sadly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_hqPo97SQc
LOL.
I jest, but honestly, I'm not too bothered by the +1ness of the Mogh vs. the Avenger, in this instance, but I do think it's a slippery slope we should be avoiding.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Yeah, if the Mogh got a Battlecloak, then I could understand the rage. But this is just a basic cloak, standard on all KDF ships, its a KDF play-style. So what? Its not like its a Romulan Mogai that can uncloak and instagib any player no matter what and escape through battlecloak.
Feds don't generally have this type of play-style but were given it through the Avenger. You can play it like a KDF battlecruiser, although at the cost of a console slot. Or you can play it like a more tactically focused federation cruiser without any losses, it can still put dual cannons on, your choice.
If you actually prefer the KDF play-style and want to take it as far as you can go... play KDF. The Feds have their own niches and so do the KDF.
Funny thing, if you read my first post you'd know that I only have a level 12 kdf alt I don't run. I'm a blue through and through. But I'm a blue that cares about stats. I considered the whole part of your agument. It was fallacious. We don't need two identical factions. We need two balanced factions. The terms are not interchangeable.
Let us have our OP Avenger clone with built in cloak, it'll most likely be the last T5 c-store ship that we get for another 2 years...
[Edit] I refuse to edit my post about whining fed players.
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
Bortasqu. For almost a year, the only non-lockbox ship to have that.
Blatently ignoring the fact that this is the first KDF C-store ship in nearly two years.