Not comparable, apples to oranges; like any KDF Fanboy argument. None of you can ever do anything but strawman.
Also happens to be true im afraid we feds do have a hell of a lot more ships available.
This may be just me , but whats the obsession with wanting fed ships to cloak ? :x
First of all - how many of you do PvP?
Secondly - 2000 crew? As if crew count had any substantial meaning...
An integrated cloak? How many times during a 1v1 skirmish will a Klingon player be able to use it? Only when not under fire for several seconds which means only at the beginning of the battle. When on team - Fed players have a multitude of ways to counter cloak.
I think the answer to that is pretty clear - about three times as many ships to choose from.
This guy gets it.
Realistically, the avenger was just a power-creep adjusted upgrade of torkhat stats, a KDF one seems redundant if anything, but at least they finally get 5 fore weapons. Funny how they're still waiting on a kumari, but got an avenger that they practically already had within months. Yet no ingratitude, only thanks. And they're being poopoo-ed for being bad sports. KDF gets a bad rap.
I posit that the mogh has no reason to exist and is redundant in nature. The fed avenger was good, perhaps even superior to the Torkaht, although it paid for its fifth fore weapon by having to spend a console slot on a cloaking device. That's a debate I'm interested in.
However, the milk's been spilt, it does exist, consider it a much needed update to keep the KDF competetive seeing how long it's been since they got an endgame-level ship release. If anything, this is a minor act of game balance in the face of power creep. Also, on the subject of power creep, I paid 50 dollars for an escort 3 pack whose special feature was that it had 5 fore weapon slots, stop handing that out to every new ship you make like it's the new "escort carrier" super concept. Every faction now has a 5 fore weapon ship. No more.
In the meantime, and in response to the guy the guy I quoted was quoting, the feds got a battlecruiser that can cloak, fit dual cannons, and can run 5 fore weapons as opposed to 5 tac consoles, something they didn't have beforehand. It's like a unique taste-test of kdf gameplay, and is fine. What do they have outside of this? The absolute superiority over the kdf to shield and hull tank. KDF has nowhere near as many possible combinations as are available to fed tank captains. Feds tank better. That is a fact.
First of all - how many of you do PvP?
Secondly - 2000 crew? As if crew count had any substantial meaning...
An integrated cloak? How many times during a PvP skirmish will a Klingon player be able to use it? Only when not under fire for several seconds.
That is correct. The general gameplay flow is like this:
Correct. Standard Cloak isn't enough to warrant reducing the effectiveness of this ship or improving the Avenger in my opinion. The massive advantage that the Avenger has is that it gives fed players the ability to fly a faction specific battlecruiser, which is a ship class previously unavailable to them.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
So what, mechanically, do Fed ships get as their Faction special ability?
We get it, its not cloaking. OK, so what exactly is it?
You could have given the avenger something else to separate it mechanically from the Mogh, something that gives it a uniquely Fed spin/advantage to it.
I think Phil pretty much answered your question but you continue to refuse to accept the answer. The advantage to the FEDs is getting their own KDF Battle Cruiser in the first place. Get it?
Well, with this, KDF can never again claim they are the unloved, neglected, redheaded blacksheep of the community. Cryptic broke the supposed balance with this one pretty loudly.
Bs. no balance was ever broken. Though you are right in that the KDF needs to leave the Dev hate syndrome behind.
It seems only the feds hate us now for not being crapped upon. Which is fine.
This may be just me , but whats the obsession with wanting fed ships to cloak ? :x
Honestly, it's not even the cloak that's the issue as it is added functionality to what should be identical ships.
If the avenger had a built-in device that could be used once every minute or so to decloak any ships within 5 km, I'd call these balanced and put it to bed. Something like that. It's not the cloak itself so much as it is giving the same ship an extra toy because it's on a particular faction.
Correct. Standard Cloak isn't enough to warrant reducing the effectiveness of this ship or improving the Avenger in my opinion. The massive advantage that the Avenger has is that it gives fed players the ability to fly a faction specific battlecruiser, which is a ship class previously unavailable to them.
i agree. the ability to cloak can give you an advantage to initial positioning, but when you in the middle of a fight it does nothing for you. its very tac heavy, and its got 5 forward weapons, but its still a cruiser. its not really a super spike boat that can fully take advantage of a decloak like an escort or anything with a COM tactical station could, its still mainly an attrition fighter. if it cant get a kill in that 5 second window, the cloak is of little tactical significance.
The example you're giving is true for Fed Escorts and KDF Raptors, but KDF Battlecruisers do not have this drawback. Had I reduced the shield mod on the Mogh, it would be an inferior ship to the Avenger and players would be making different suggestions now.
Had we reduced the Mogh's shield modifier it would have the lowest shield modifier of any Tier 5 KDF battlecruiser making it less desirable.
the bortas still has only a 1.0 mod i think, seems sort of silly these days. the only example of stats being reduced for a claok, in this case a battle cloak, is the kdf vet ship. but really, it has the pretty stranded .83 raptor shield mod.
Had we given the Avenger Cloak, we'd embark on a slippery slope where similar fed ships would be expected to have cloak.
Had we given the Mogh less crew, it would be inconsistent with KDF battlecruisers as they have large crews:
-Vor'cha has 1500
-Negh'Var has 2500
-Tor'Kaht has 1500
-Kamarag has 700
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
the cloaking device should be changed from a console to a device, and the avenger should get a 4th device slot. then theres parity, then 1 ship isn't +.1 over the other. helps the galaxy X and defiant as well.
Honestly, it's not even the cloak that's the issue as it is added functionality to what should be identical ships.
If the avenger had a built-in device that could be used once every minute or so to decloak any ships within 5 km, I'd call these balanced and put it to bed. Something like that. It's not the cloak itself so much as it is giving the same ship an extra toy because it's on a particular faction.
An ability like this "sensor scan" you suggest would require one to play as a science captain.
Ahh, yes. "Science: The third profession in the game built around healing, disabling, buffing, and debuffing."
Love to buy this ship but for some reason I havent got my months stipend yet (and support pages still dont work) and to make matters worse I just spent most of my Zen allowance on Neverwinter. Still I do love the concept of this ship and will certainly get it if it stays like this.
Not comparable, apples to oranges; like any KDF Fanboy argument. None of you can ever do anything but strawman.
Wait, so you are really going to say that the Fed side getting TEN more ships since F2P launch than the KDF (I just went back and counted), almost all of them being the best ships of their class, is a strawman argument? If so, it's one of those strawmen from the Burning Man festival - two stories tall and lit on fire.
Honestly, it's not even the cloak that's the issue as it is added functionality to what should be identical ships.
If the avenger had a built-in device that could be used once every minute or so to decloak any ships within 5 km, I'd call these balanced and put it to bed. Something like that. It's not the cloak itself so much as it is giving the same ship an extra toy because it's on a particular faction.
QFT. The frustration is that to get the same functionality in a ship which comes with the ability to do so, it costs more, both financially and in potential ship performance.
Well as far as fed or kdf whining the issue that Cryptic will probally address in the new year is the issue of when romulans got all those sets that not only does the kdf not have anything like that the feds don't either.
So what I would do if I were Cryptic to make it where both factions benefit is doing something to tie the story along with how the Worf aspect where he's not going to be taking it lying down how the story started in this game. Basically resigning of the Khitomer Accords for the alliance some how tie it together where there are fed consoles and kdf consoles that you buy future c-store ships and maybe tie in existing fed ones where it benefits if you buy new KDF c-store ships where you can get a cross faction console so that fed, kdf, and romulan ships all have sets like romulans do now.
That is best somewhat canon way I can think of where the majority of the player base can improve their setups and as well establish the ability for the majority of players out there to give Cryptic the reason to make more Klingon ships so everyone gets something by owning Klingon/KDF ships without the other side whining about it lol.
Honestly, it's not even the cloak that's the issue as it is added functionality to what should be identical ships.
If the avenger had a built-in device that could be used once every minute or so to decloak any ships within 5 km, I'd call these balanced and put it to bed. Something like that. It's not the cloak itself so much as it is giving the same ship an extra toy because it's on a particular faction.
You already have that , its called charged particle burst.
I posit that the mogh has no reason to exist and is redundant in nature. The fed avenger was good, perhaps even superior to the Torkaht, although it paid for its fifth fore weapon by having to spend a console slot on a cloaking device. That's a debate I'm interested in.
My opinion as well. Mogh is a copy-paste of a copy-paste of the Tor'Kaht. It does not fill any gaps in the line-up like the Avenger did for the feds. KDF needs a decent destroyer and/or another science ship of some kind, not another battle cruiser with 9 turn rate and too many engi stations. But its here, and it does have some merit (AtB capable, 5 forward, good inertia), and its not a bad ship or anything.
Also I was expecting the balance point for the on-board cloak and higher crew numbers to be a worse inertia value. Kind of surprised that its the same 50 as the avenger. A battle cruiser with 50 inertia certainly makes it more compelling, still redundant, but better than the Tor'Kaht.
Wait, so you are really going to say that the Fed side getting TEN more ships since F2P launch than the KDF (I just went back and counted), almost all of them being the best ships of their class, is a strawman argument? If so, it's one of those strawmen from the Burning Man festival - two stories tall and lit on fire.
That point is not the Stawman, it's the blighters' penchant for flying to Lore whenever people talk about Starfleet's three (3) cloaking vessels not being inferior in the function. Which is a game mechanic balance debate, not a lore one.
What you mention is simply a case of there being far more money in producing store content for Federation. Especially when you factor in how vicious, bitter, and ungrateful KDF were over the Bortas'qu; which actually was a good ship when flown like a Starfleet line cruiser rather than a battle cruiser.
the cloaking device should be changed from a console to a device, and the avenger should get a 4th device slot. then theres parity, then 1 ship isn't +.1 over the other. helps the galaxy X and defiant as well.
The cloaking device should be changed from a console to a device, and the avenger should get a 4th device slot. then theres parity, then 1 ship isn't +.1 over the other. helps the galaxy X and defiant as well.
This works. Might be a little imbalanced in favor of feds, but that might be personal bias since I'm not big on batteries.
I think Phil pretty much answered your question but you continue to refuse to accept the answer. The advantage to the FEDs is getting their own KDF Battle Cruiser in the first place. Get it?
If we gave you a 9-console slot Vesta, would you be happy, or would you be pissed because you got the short end of the stick?
You already have that , its called charged particle burst.
It's just an example of something useful. CPB takes a boff ability slot. If the federation had a built-in mechanic of similar usefulness to cloaking, there'd be a lot less complaining. But the large ship selection or large playerbase doesn't help when you're in combat and have to stick with what you brought.
So while you take the time to give the winter weapons, stuff that is used for a month each year for a fun event, a balance pass to bring them more in line, it's perfectly reasonable to have one supposedly twin being superior, because that's how that faction has always been and because giving both ships (which are supposed to fill the identical nice) the same stats and abilities would have been slippery slope?
That point is not the Stawman, it's the blighters' penchant for flying to Lore whenever people talk about Starfleet's three (3) cloaking vessels not being inferior in the function. Which is a game mechanic balance debate, not a lore one.
What you mention is simply a case of there being far more money in producing store content for Federation. Especially when you factor in how vicious, bitter, and ungrateful KDF were over the Bortas'qu; which actually was a good ship when flown like a Starfleet line cruiser rather than a battle cruiser.
I never complained about the BortaSqu' and know many KDF players that don't have a problem with it.
What I do hear and see are a lot of FED players "vicious, bitter, and ungrateful" about the Avenger-class; which actually was a good ship when flown like a Klingon battle cruiser rather than a Federation line cruiser.
So when the KDF get a different console on Mogh-class... they complain. The fact that Mogh-class has an integrated cloak ... they complain.
Track record .... Defiant got a cloak ... they wanted a battle cloak and so complained.
Romulans got battle cloak ... FEDs again complained ... not the KDF ... but the FEDs complained.
Anyone remember when they use to complain about the Birds of Prey with battle cloak being the perfect first strike weapon with the Alpha attack from Grethor? ... Ahhh ... those were the days ... days now gone, sadly.
Comments
^This is the voice of good game design booming through the parted clouds.
^This is absurdly funny. Mostly because it's true.
Ding Ding!
and new ship more often as well. The Feds get to be the primary in STO and reap the benefits of being that primary target audience.
R.I.P
Not comparable, apples to oranges; like any KDF Fanboy argument. None of you can ever do anything but strawman.
How long has it been since the KDF last had a Tier V c-store ship? ... How about that same question for the FEDs?
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
Also happens to be true im afraid we feds do have a hell of a lot more ships available.
This may be just me , but whats the obsession with wanting fed ships to cloak ? :x
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
First of all - how many of you do PvP?
Secondly - 2000 crew? As if crew count had any substantial meaning...
An integrated cloak? How many times during a 1v1 skirmish will a Klingon player be able to use it? Only when not under fire for several seconds which means only at the beginning of the battle. When on team - Fed players have a multitude of ways to counter cloak.
This guy gets it.
Realistically, the avenger was just a power-creep adjusted upgrade of torkhat stats, a KDF one seems redundant if anything, but at least they finally get 5 fore weapons. Funny how they're still waiting on a kumari, but got an avenger that they practically already had within months. Yet no ingratitude, only thanks. And they're being poopoo-ed for being bad sports. KDF gets a bad rap.
I posit that the mogh has no reason to exist and is redundant in nature. The fed avenger was good, perhaps even superior to the Torkaht, although it paid for its fifth fore weapon by having to spend a console slot on a cloaking device. That's a debate I'm interested in.
However, the milk's been spilt, it does exist, consider it a much needed update to keep the KDF competetive seeing how long it's been since they got an endgame-level ship release. If anything, this is a minor act of game balance in the face of power creep. Also, on the subject of power creep, I paid 50 dollars for an escort 3 pack whose special feature was that it had 5 fore weapon slots, stop handing that out to every new ship you make like it's the new "escort carrier" super concept. Every faction now has a 5 fore weapon ship. No more.
In the meantime, and in response to the guy the guy I quoted was quoting, the feds got a battlecruiser that can cloak, fit dual cannons, and can run 5 fore weapons as opposed to 5 tac consoles, something they didn't have beforehand. It's like a unique taste-test of kdf gameplay, and is fine. What do they have outside of this? The absolute superiority over the kdf to shield and hull tank. KDF has nowhere near as many possible combinations as are available to fed tank captains. Feds tank better. That is a fact.
Fiiiiinally someone makes a valid point.
Give those who purchased the Z-store Avenger the both consoles, that should balance things roughly.
Bs. no balance was ever broken. Though you are right in that the KDF needs to leave the Dev hate syndrome behind.
It seems only the feds hate us now for not being crapped upon. Which is fine.
R.I.P
Honestly, it's not even the cloak that's the issue as it is added functionality to what should be identical ships.
If the avenger had a built-in device that could be used once every minute or so to decloak any ships within 5 km, I'd call these balanced and put it to bed. Something like that. It's not the cloak itself so much as it is giving the same ship an extra toy because it's on a particular faction.
LMAO!!!
/thread.
i agree. the ability to cloak can give you an advantage to initial positioning, but when you in the middle of a fight it does nothing for you. its very tac heavy, and its got 5 forward weapons, but its still a cruiser. its not really a super spike boat that can fully take advantage of a decloak like an escort or anything with a COM tactical station could, its still mainly an attrition fighter. if it cant get a kill in that 5 second window, the cloak is of little tactical significance.
the bortas still has only a 1.0 mod i think, seems sort of silly these days. the only example of stats being reduced for a claok, in this case a battle cloak, is the kdf vet ship. but really, it has the pretty stranded .83 raptor shield mod.
the cloaking device should be changed from a console to a device, and the avenger should get a 4th device slot. then theres parity, then 1 ship isn't +.1 over the other. helps the galaxy X and defiant as well.
An ability like this "sensor scan" you suggest would require one to play as a science captain.
Ahh, yes. "Science: The third profession in the game built around healing, disabling, buffing, and debuffing."
We have dismissed those claims.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
Wait, so you are really going to say that the Fed side getting TEN more ships since F2P launch than the KDF (I just went back and counted), almost all of them being the best ships of their class, is a strawman argument? If so, it's one of those strawmen from the Burning Man festival - two stories tall and lit on fire.
QFT. The frustration is that to get the same functionality in a ship which comes with the ability to do so, it costs more, both financially and in potential ship performance.
So what I would do if I were Cryptic to make it where both factions benefit is doing something to tie the story along with how the Worf aspect where he's not going to be taking it lying down how the story started in this game. Basically resigning of the Khitomer Accords for the alliance some how tie it together where there are fed consoles and kdf consoles that you buy future c-store ships and maybe tie in existing fed ones where it benefits if you buy new KDF c-store ships where you can get a cross faction console so that fed, kdf, and romulan ships all have sets like romulans do now.
That is best somewhat canon way I can think of where the majority of the player base can improve their setups and as well establish the ability for the majority of players out there to give Cryptic the reason to make more Klingon ships so everyone gets something by owning Klingon/KDF ships without the other side whining about it lol.
You already have that , its called charged particle burst.
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
Also I was expecting the balance point for the on-board cloak and higher crew numbers to be a worse inertia value. Kind of surprised that its the same 50 as the avenger. A battle cruiser with 50 inertia certainly makes it more compelling, still redundant, but better than the Tor'Kaht.
That point is not the Stawman, it's the blighters' penchant for flying to Lore whenever people talk about Starfleet's three (3) cloaking vessels not being inferior in the function. Which is a game mechanic balance debate, not a lore one.
What you mention is simply a case of there being far more money in producing store content for Federation. Especially when you factor in how vicious, bitter, and ungrateful KDF were over the Bortas'qu; which actually was a good ship when flown like a Starfleet line cruiser rather than a battle cruiser.
I could live with this.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
This works. Might be a little imbalanced in favor of feds, but that might be personal bias since I'm not big on batteries.
If we gave you a 9-console slot Vesta, would you be happy, or would you be pissed because you got the short end of the stick?
It's just an example of something useful. CPB takes a boff ability slot. If the federation had a built-in mechanic of similar usefulness to cloaking, there'd be a lot less complaining. But the large ship selection or large playerbase doesn't help when you're in combat and have to stick with what you brought.
So while you take the time to give the winter weapons, stuff that is used for a month each year for a fun event, a balance pass to bring them more in line, it's perfectly reasonable to have one supposedly twin being superior, because that's how that faction has always been and because giving both ships (which are supposed to fill the identical nice) the same stats and abilities would have been slippery slope?
I never complained about the BortaSqu' and know many KDF players that don't have a problem with it.
What I do hear and see are a lot of FED players "vicious, bitter, and ungrateful" about the Avenger-class; which actually was a good ship when flown like a Klingon battle cruiser rather than a Federation line cruiser.
So when the KDF get a different console on Mogh-class... they complain. The fact that Mogh-class has an integrated cloak ... they complain.
Track record .... Defiant got a cloak ... they wanted a battle cloak and so complained.
Romulans got battle cloak ... FEDs again complained ... not the KDF ... but the FEDs complained.
Anyone remember when they use to complain about the Birds of Prey with battle cloak being the perfect first strike weapon with the Alpha attack from Grethor? ... Ahhh ... those were the days ... days now gone, sadly.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)