It is also very likely the reason that certain PvP centric MMOs (of which there have not been many at all actually) are doing so well even in this bleak market compared to the three purely PvE MMOs a YEAR that are failing (some less than 2 years old).
If you check into them, you'll find these PvP-centric MMOs are being bolstered by a relatively sizeable number of PvE players - not a majority for sure, but they're there nonetheless. Even EVE benefits in this respect - there's plenty of info regarding the stability of activity in non-safe areas, versus increasing activity in safe areas, which backs that up.
As you say later in your post "PvP sells" - actually I think it's the game itself that sells when it comes to MMOs. So long as there's something to do that doesn't involve PvP, the PvE MMO demographic is so huge that there are always players ready and willing to not only try it out, but stick with it. This was very apparent with both Shadowbane when it went F2P, and Darkfall Online after release - though Shadowbane's PvE was so incredibly basic it failed to retain a large number of PvE players in the long run, and Darkfall's devs have had to make a lot of changes just to hold their head above water.
While most MMOs double cater to both crowds, and many indeed require PvE to gear for PvP, there are so many successful MMOs out there with large and healthy PvP communities that I am surprised you dont even include them.
The problem with making reference to other successful MMOs with healthy PvP communities ("healthy" being - I would hedge - a relatively stable community constituting around 10-20% of the total playerbase), is that as the total size of the playerbase goes up, the break-even potential of catering to any given minority goes up. STO has (let's face it) a relatively small playerbase, therefore the break-even potential of catering to the PvP demographic is low - especially if you consider the current state that it is in and the prospective amount of work that would be required to sort it out, with any degree of success large enough to 1) satisfy the current active PvP population, 2) generate interest from at least a portion of the PvE population (without sparking a raft of complaints about being "forced" into PvP maps because that's where the "best" rewards are), 3) draw in new PvP-focused players.
He can't. He's trying very hard to be his Willy Wonka meme of smugness and pretending to know everything, but has nothing to stand on.
Look at that "have a cookie" TRIBBLE he just did. He is officially not allowed to whine about me or anyone else being condescending at this point, without me laughing out loud at him, pointing.
He can't. He's trying very hard to be his Willy Wonka meme of smugness and pretending to know everything, but has nothing to stand on.
Look at that "have a cookie" TRIBBLE he just did. He is officially not allowed to whine about me or anyone else being condescending at this point, without me laughing out loud at him, pointing.
Are you sure I cant?
Ill play this game, lets have a pyramid point counterpoint war!
Give me some time, I am going to compose a huge list of examples.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
That was partly my point. The failure was not necessarily because of PvP gameplay, but due to promises not kept, or expectations not being met.
PVP MMOs fail for the following reasons:
developers overestimate demand based on noise
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
game launches
players still die
players complain about dying
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
players leave old game.
old game "dies" except for a few die hards who think its the greatest game ever.
repeat ad nauseum.
the problem with trying to make a game for the average MMO pvper can be summed up entirely with a sentence i once read in the chat box of the MMO "World of Tanks"...
an' it goes a lil somethin'' like this:
"if the game was fair and balanced i'd win ever match"
SWG - Star Wars Galaxies, SOE - 2003 - 2011. I played this game for the whole eight years. Sandbox MMO, quite fun in the early stages. Had a very solid PvP playerbase, it even had build in ranking systems via the FRS (early) and GCW (late)
After the NGE and resulting loss of players, the PvE aspect of the game became laughably easy, even with the addition of the Heroics system in its attempt to copy WOW.
The PvP community continued on until early 2010 when some broad mechanics changes forced cookie cutter builds to become the normal mainstay. broken buffs, the move towards buff stacking, as well as the general malaise surrounding the fact that actual PvP content had been ignored for years caused a massive exodus to the new shiny on the street League of Legends. I remember whole PvP guilds leaving for that game.
Shortly after the Exodus of the PvP community, the game went into total maintenance mode and very little was added. A few bug patches, some minor smatters of content, but anyone that played knows that 2010/2011 were lean to nothing in terms of anything new at all.
The game sunset in the shadow of the looming SWTOR with barely 1/10th if its initial population. Some due to management error, the rest due to bleeding of what was an extremely large PvP community even in a PvE game.
Thats one, next post will have another.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
talaj, when developers create games that revolve exclusively around THEIR style of gameplay, those games are inevitably both very niche, and very-short-term, regardless of whether the game is ALSO PvE OR PvP focused.
I was talking about developers creating a game revolving around PvP gameplay, not their style of gameplay - which by virtue of the fact that the PvP demographic is a niche market, does make them niche, but isn't the point.
where a niche-one-style-uber-alles situation occurs, the game ends up tanking in the long run.
I wouldn't say that at all. As I've said before developers do pay lip service to PvP in order to hook part of that niche demographic. But to commit any serious time and resources to developing PvP post-release? That's another matter - that's why the same issues of PvP stagnation, imbalance, etc, have been, are, and will be brought up time and again across MMOs.
EVE is entirely PvP-the solo and PvE content are negligible, ignored, and EVE is growing while other MMO's are dying.
Beyond being the only really notable exception, EVE does benefit from its fair share of PvE-focused players.
But, see, EVE doesn't JUST cater to one style of play within it's focus.
You're quite right - EVE caters to farmers as a byproduct of its design (and there are lots of farmers out there!).
when PvP players discuss "Power Creep" and "Balance" it's often in the context that the devs have gone toward a model where there is an increasing reliance on "The One True Build". (and you can't tell me you haven't seen this in the STFs!)
that "One True Build" problem may change every update, but it's always there. The Jem'Bug (Jem Hadar Attack Ship) was the "it Ship" for a long time, not just in PvP, but among the STF/PvE crowd too.
Beyond the fact that power creep is a significant part of STO's revenue generation mechanic - people aren't going to shell out for lockbox keys, for the low chance of getting a ship that's no better than what's already available - that's not really the issue at hand.
The Developers don't even NOTICE when something is being abused in PvP, but when the spec to abuse it in PvE gets out and people start using it extensively on the grind content to speed up the grind, THEN it gets nerfed, and usually not in the way the PvP group would have suggested-instead of a minor adjustment, it gets hit with the whole-nerf-tree.
That's really more of a justification for just how small STO's PvP demographic is, I would say?
I think I'm done for today. I've spent far, far too long on this thread alone and I have STO dailies to do, and two BGs to win in WoW on my latest character that's on the legendary cloak chain!
Ai on - The second largest MMO in the world (second only to WoW globally). The game is fundamentally a PvP game that blends PvP and PvE together. I have never played this one, but I have friends that have, and they say its a very solid game, if a bit too grindy... and for me I dont like fantasy games in general (lotro is the exception to this)
So despite being a Korean grinder and being mostly PvP centric, and recently going to a Free to Play model, it is the second largest MMO in the world. As far as i have heard, it isnt going anywhere anytime soon. In this regard we have an example of a PvP/PvE blended game that is doing well, it is however, marketed as being PvP centric.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Elder Scrolls Online - Due to release in early 2014, currently in Closed Beta (I got to beta test it a couple weekends ago)
One of the lynchpins of this game is the fact they are touting massive PvP battles in zones that will hold literally hundreds of players. There are PvE elements, naturally, but this game is being developed having an extremely robust PvP centered endgame. And midgame to some extent, since the whole game is focused around a three sided war.
Only time will tell if it does well, but from testing, once they hammer the bugs this game is going to be very very solid. That is my opinion of course, but we shall see if the next PvP centric game makes it or not.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Now, for another cookie, how many of those games are still operating. From what youve posted I count most or all (the masked one I cant determine and one ive never heard of myself)
-edit. Do you mean A I O N? If so that is the second largest MMO behind WoW.
conan, warhammer, and fallen earth are operating but almost dead....especially fallen earth which was basically the eve of ground combat....there probably less than 1000 people by the fans own estimation playing fallen earth atm...they are literally expecting the switch to be thrown any day now.
i am disinclined to count the shooter mmos tbh as they have cross over appeal from other an other genre and are much easier to balance and play casually treating them just like a larger scale FPS...in fact when it comes to the likes of world of tanks i have said many times this could be a mod for any shooter...it may technically be an mmo but in essence all it basically does its FPS 15 a side team deathmatch with a lobby...
LOTRO - Still in service. This game has a unique PvP system that is unlocked either by subscription, or grinding a character to endgame. The flaw however is the lack of balance in the combat. This game is starting to suffer from serious stagnation in the PvE releases, with the last two major expansions being very lackluster. The PvP community is beginning to dwindle as well, and servers that were once very solid are quickly becoming ghost towns.
Fortunately Brandywine (my main server, ironically the RP server) is still relatively strong, but even it is starting to show signs of a drying up endgame, there hasnt been any maintenance of its PvP game in some time. Things that have been broken for years are remaining so, and that community is pretty fed up.
I dont expect this game to last much longer, but weirder things have happened (like EQ1 still going despite being down to like 40k subs or something)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Ill play this game, lets have a pyramid point counterpoint war!
Give me some time, I am going to compose a huge list of examples.
Better yet, don't.
No one would be impressed but you, since you're still stacking your house of cards in favor of broad generalizations like "This game will die without the PVPers".
You're playing a special game with yourself that you've set the rules for yourself, and count the points and declare yourself the winner in. It's an exercise in narcissism that serves no purpose here.
I'll say it again. No one will be impressed but you. You will persuade no one who didn't already agree with you, and waste your own time.
conan, warhammer, and fallen earth are operating but almost dead....especially fallen earth which was basically the eve of ground combat....there probably less than 1000 people by the fans own estimation playing fallen earth atm...they are literally expecting the switch to be thrown any day now.
i am disinclined to count the shooter mmos tbh as they have cross over appeal from other an other genre and are much easier to balance and play casually treating them just like a larger scale FPS...in fact when it comes to the likes of world of tanks i have said many times this could be a mod for any shooter...it may technically be an mmo but in essence all it basically does its FPS 15 a side team deathmatch with a lobby...
At this point, I think we can safely say there's enough examples of both things happening to conclude that nothing is certain when it comes to PVP's supposed importance in an MMO. Cases for are great, but when againsts come around, all vague claims of "the game will die without this!" sound very hollow.
Elder Scrolls Online - Due to release in early 2014, currently in Closed Beta (I got to beta test it a couple weekends ago)
One of the lynchpins of this game is the fact they are touting massive PvP battles in zones that will hold literally hundreds of players. There are PvE elements, naturally, but this game is being developed having an extremely robust PvP centered endgame. And midgame to some extent, since the whole game is focused around a three sided war.
Only time will tell if it does well, but from testing, once they hammer the bugs this game is going to be very very solid. That is my opinion of course, but we shall see if the next PvP centric game makes it or not.
Two years - yes 2 years after Skyrim was released it still has 30k players a day playing on steam - that's a single player game!! Estimate are for over a million still play skyrim weekly - for a 2 year old single player game with no multiplayer and no co-op that is unprecedented.
The current version you can buy is the 'legendary' edition - for once I think a game company is not exaggerating with the edition title!
Two years - yes 2 years after Skyrim was released it still has 30k players a day playing on steam - that's a single player game!! Estimate are for over a million still play skyrim weekly - for a 2 year old single player game with no multiplayer and no co-op that is unprecedented.
Only his examples matter, because in his head, his opinions are "truth".
We may be wasting our time here. He's not getting his way, and we're better for it.
Only his examples matter, because in his head, his opinions are "truth".
We may be wasting our time here. He's not getting his way, and we're better for it.
There is no doubt that once it launches -based on the current fan base - the opening few months will be colossal number of players - the question is Will all those players used to running the map alone and controlling the world alone - can handle dealing with millions of real people in 'their' world.
There is no doubt that once it launches -based on the current fan base - the opening few months will be colossal number of players - the question is Will all those players used to running the map alone and controlling the world alone - can handle dealing with millions of real people in 'their' world.
Hype machines predictably run wild.
I still remember the "GUILD WARS 2 WILL REVOLUTIONIZE MMOS FOREVER" cultists, here and on Old Republic and even on some other games I played at the time.
It may do well. Some PVP games do well, such as EVE Online. Others do not so well, such as Darkfall or Mortal Online. The ambiguity is in favor of saying here "no, there is no certainty we really need to cater to a small if very vocal and demanding group of people in our game."
Elder Scrolls Online is going to be a big game because it's Elder Scrolls Online...i mean c'mon Skyrim is the only western game ever to get 40/40 in Famitsu...Elder Scrolls is a genuinely massive international brand...that and it's a near perfect candidate for a console MMO...probably the first that will pull such things truly into the mainstream of console gaming...as for pvp within it...well i dunno tbh...most Elder Scrolls players can play and Elder Scrolls game for 100s of hours without any desire to see another living Human soul in the process unless they are delivering pizza...i wonder how many of the will react to be teabagged by a Khajiit Nightblade called "SuKsToBeU" or something...
it might have pvp in it...indeed pvp may well be part of the focus of its end game...but i very much doubt pvp will be foremost in the minds of the majority of people buying it...
Elder Scrolls Online is going to be a big game because it's Elder Scrolls Online...i mean c'mon Skyrim is the only western game ever to get 40/40 in Famitsu...Elder Scrolls is a genuinely massive international brand...that and it's a near perfect candidate for a console MMO...probably the first that will pull such things truly into the mainstream of console gaming...as for pvp within it...well i dunno tbh...most Elder Scrolls players can play and Elder Scrolls game for 100s of hours without any desire to see another living Human soul in the process unless they are delivering pizza...i wonder how many of the will react to be teabagged by a Khajiit Nightblade called "SuKsToBeU" or something...
it might have pvp in it...indeed pvp may well be part of the focus of its end game...but i very much doubt pvp will be foremost in the minds of the majority of people buying it...
It's got a PVP bend because one of its heads is a Dark Age of Camelot guy that basically got this IP and is ramming a square peg through a round hole, making a single player masterpiece and trying to turn it into Camelot Electric Bugaloo.
Maybe it will be good. Maybe the PVP will even be fun (wasn't that great in Dark Age of Camelot, especially due to the stealth ganks). But it doesn't have much of a foundation to build on, especially considering almost all of its Elder Scrolls portions have been tacked on near the end of development ("you can now move items on tables!") and that CGI trailer was painfully standard issue fantasy TRIBBLE.
It's got a PVP bend because one of its heads is a Dark Age of Camelot guy that basically got this IP and is ramming a square peg through a round hole, making a single player masterpiece and trying to turn it into Camelot Electric Bugaloo.
Maybe it will be good. Maybe the PVP will even be fun (wasn't that great in Dark Age of Camelot, especially due to the stealth ganks). But it doesn't have much of a foundation to build on, especially considering almost all of its Elder Scrolls portions have been tacked on near the end of development ("you can now move items on tables!") and that CGI trailer was painfully standard issue fantasy TRIBBLE.
Hey, I liked ****. And I like the ES series, I remain hopeful. But if anything may be said about ESO it's that it has really dumb helmets.
Hey now. There is no good reason we should toss PvP. That would be dumb as it would kill a large part of what made MMO's unique for the past 25 years or so that they've been around.
Hey, I liked ****. And I like the ES series, I remain hopeful. But if anything may be said about ESO it's that it has really dumb helmets.
It's fine to like game-that-can-not-be-named. I don't know if it's a good fit for Elder Scrolls. Having a clumsily-assembled trio of "why are these guys allies again?" factions all fighting over the Imperial City sounds very questionable.
Hooray, "YOLOSWAG420" is now the Emperor of Cyrodil! Hail the conquerer and his mighty band "BLAZINIT".
Hey now. There is no good reason we should toss PvP. That would be dumb as it would kill a large part of what made MMO's unique for the past 25 years or so that they've been around.
The same could be said of corpse runs, permadeath, brutal encumbrance rules (you could DIE in MajorMUD if you were handed too many torches), spawn camps, and other "definitive" things that are already on the decline or faded away.
Yes, yes the all mighty "hardcore" will always mourn their passing. Let them.
Elder Scrolls Online is going to be a big game because it's Elder Scrolls Online.
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
Sounds a bit like STO.
And before the dogma is recited again, no, PVP is not absolutely necessary as a centerpiece or even as a priority in MMOs for them to be successful. Examples have already been given of that.
Usually the reason PvPers cry 'that's OP' is because the object in question is not working as intended. Perhaps a better word would be 'broken'. And when something is broken towards the overpowered end of things, PvEers start abusing it in PvE. A classic example is the tricobalt mine bug, which led to unholy amounts of damage being done in both PvP and PvE. Some PvEers STILL complain about that being fixed.
PvEers are much less likely to complain about broken additions because they're not feeling the effect. NPCs don't complain.
You are right in saying that broken things should of get fixed, but the problem is that sometimes the devs of various games implements what the PvP, or PvE crowd says, with some of their own tweaks, and that nice shiny armor you just got??
Now you might aswell just go into combat against the Borg in your underwear, for all the good that will do you...
Some times it's the PvP crowd that get things changed for what they think is better, but forgets that the item in question also is used a lot by the PvE crowd, or the other way around.
But most of the time it's actually a combination of suggestions from the players, and the devs themselves that makes items get nerfed, and a good deal of the time it's the devs that muck around too much, leaving us players going : "who thought that was a good change to do??"
So it's a trinity of, and let's be honest here, bad calls for changes, nerfs or other things that makes items lackluster...
The same could be said of corpse runs, permadeath, brutal encumbrance rules (you could DIE in MajorMUD if you were handed too many torches), spawn camps, and other "definitive" things that are already on the decline or faded away.
Yes, yes the all mighty "hardcore" will always mourn their passing. Let them.
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
Undoubtedly. I just think they're crazy for thinking a sub MMO is going to work in this day and age.
And before the dogma is recited again, no, PVP is not absolutely necessary as a centerpiece or even as a priority in MMOs for them to be successful. Examples have already been given of that.
Undoubtedly. I just think they're crazy for thinking a sub MMO is going to work in this day and age.
Pffffffffffffffch-hahahahaha! :D:D
My point there: Not all things that are "we did this before and did it for a long time" need to be around forever. Yeah, ****'s large pvp moments were neat for many. Thing is, it's still a very clumsy fit for Elder Scrolls, which is banking on Elder Scrolls fans to care about it.
If it was Canned Fantasy Wars Online and floated on its own merits, that'd be a different story altogether.
I have nothing to say about subs versus "free" MMOs. There is a very real problem with "free" games: griefers and cheaters can come back forever even when banned. Planetside 2 has that problem in a huge way.
I can laugh out loud in the exact same way at any and all claims of "this game NEEDS PVP or it will die" claims.
Comments
If you check into them, you'll find these PvP-centric MMOs are being bolstered by a relatively sizeable number of PvE players - not a majority for sure, but they're there nonetheless. Even EVE benefits in this respect - there's plenty of info regarding the stability of activity in non-safe areas, versus increasing activity in safe areas, which backs that up.
As you say later in your post "PvP sells" - actually I think it's the game itself that sells when it comes to MMOs. So long as there's something to do that doesn't involve PvP, the PvE MMO demographic is so huge that there are always players ready and willing to not only try it out, but stick with it. This was very apparent with both Shadowbane when it went F2P, and Darkfall Online after release - though Shadowbane's PvE was so incredibly basic it failed to retain a large number of PvE players in the long run, and Darkfall's devs have had to make a lot of changes just to hold their head above water.
The problem with making reference to other successful MMOs with healthy PvP communities ("healthy" being - I would hedge - a relatively stable community constituting around 10-20% of the total playerbase), is that as the total size of the playerbase goes up, the break-even potential of catering to any given minority goes up. STO has (let's face it) a relatively small playerbase, therefore the break-even potential of catering to the PvP demographic is low - especially if you consider the current state that it is in and the prospective amount of work that would be required to sort it out, with any degree of success large enough to 1) satisfy the current active PvP population, 2) generate interest from at least a portion of the PvE population (without sparking a raft of complaints about being "forced" into PvP maps because that's where the "best" rewards are), 3) draw in new PvP-focused players.
He can't. He's trying very hard to be his Willy Wonka meme of smugness and pretending to know everything, but has nothing to stand on.
Look at that "have a cookie" TRIBBLE he just did. He is officially not allowed to whine about me or anyone else being condescending at this point, without me laughing out loud at him, pointing.
Are you sure I cant?
Ill play this game, lets have a pyramid point counterpoint war!
Give me some time, I am going to compose a huge list of examples.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
PVP MMOs fail for the following reasons:
developers overestimate demand based on noise
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
game launches
players still die
players complain about dying
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
players leave old game.
old game "dies" except for a few die hards who think its the greatest game ever.
repeat ad nauseum.
the problem with trying to make a game for the average MMO pvper can be summed up entirely with a sentence i once read in the chat box of the MMO "World of Tanks"...
an' it goes a lil somethin'' like this:
"if the game was fair and balanced i'd win ever match"
After the NGE and resulting loss of players, the PvE aspect of the game became laughably easy, even with the addition of the Heroics system in its attempt to copy WOW.
The PvP community continued on until early 2010 when some broad mechanics changes forced cookie cutter builds to become the normal mainstay. broken buffs, the move towards buff stacking, as well as the general malaise surrounding the fact that actual PvP content had been ignored for years caused a massive exodus to the new shiny on the street League of Legends. I remember whole PvP guilds leaving for that game.
Shortly after the Exodus of the PvP community, the game went into total maintenance mode and very little was added. A few bug patches, some minor smatters of content, but anyone that played knows that 2010/2011 were lean to nothing in terms of anything new at all.
The game sunset in the shadow of the looming SWTOR with barely 1/10th if its initial population. Some due to management error, the rest due to bleeding of what was an extremely large PvP community even in a PvE game.
Thats one, next post will have another.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I was talking about developers creating a game revolving around PvP gameplay, not their style of gameplay - which by virtue of the fact that the PvP demographic is a niche market, does make them niche, but isn't the point.
I wouldn't say that at all. As I've said before developers do pay lip service to PvP in order to hook part of that niche demographic. But to commit any serious time and resources to developing PvP post-release? That's another matter - that's why the same issues of PvP stagnation, imbalance, etc, have been, are, and will be brought up time and again across MMOs.
Beyond being the only really notable exception, EVE does benefit from its fair share of PvE-focused players.
You're quite right - EVE caters to farmers as a byproduct of its design (and there are lots of farmers out there!).
Beyond the fact that power creep is a significant part of STO's revenue generation mechanic - people aren't going to shell out for lockbox keys, for the low chance of getting a ship that's no better than what's already available - that's not really the issue at hand.
That's really more of a justification for just how small STO's PvP demographic is, I would say?
I think I'm done for today. I've spent far, far too long on this thread alone and I have STO dailies to do, and two BGs to win in WoW on my latest character that's on the legendary cloak chain!
So despite being a Korean grinder and being mostly PvP centric, and recently going to a Free to Play model, it is the second largest MMO in the world. As far as i have heard, it isnt going anywhere anytime soon. In this regard we have an example of a PvP/PvE blended game that is doing well, it is however, marketed as being PvP centric.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
One of the lynchpins of this game is the fact they are touting massive PvP battles in zones that will hold literally hundreds of players. There are PvE elements, naturally, but this game is being developed having an extremely robust PvP centered endgame. And midgame to some extent, since the whole game is focused around a three sided war.
Only time will tell if it does well, but from testing, once they hammer the bugs this game is going to be very very solid. That is my opinion of course, but we shall see if the next PvP centric game makes it or not.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
i am disinclined to count the shooter mmos tbh as they have cross over appeal from other an other genre and are much easier to balance and play casually treating them just like a larger scale FPS...in fact when it comes to the likes of world of tanks i have said many times this could be a mod for any shooter...it may technically be an mmo but in essence all it basically does its FPS 15 a side team deathmatch with a lobby...
Fortunately Brandywine (my main server, ironically the RP server) is still relatively strong, but even it is starting to show signs of a drying up endgame, there hasnt been any maintenance of its PvP game in some time. Things that have been broken for years are remaining so, and that community is pretty fed up.
I dont expect this game to last much longer, but weirder things have happened (like EQ1 still going despite being down to like 40k subs or something)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Better yet, don't.
No one would be impressed but you, since you're still stacking your house of cards in favor of broad generalizations like "This game will die without the PVPers".
You're playing a special game with yourself that you've set the rules for yourself, and count the points and declare yourself the winner in. It's an exercise in narcissism that serves no purpose here.
I'll say it again. No one will be impressed but you. You will persuade no one who didn't already agree with you, and waste your own time.
At this point, I think we can safely say there's enough examples of both things happening to conclude that nothing is certain when it comes to PVP's supposed importance in an MMO. Cases for are great, but when againsts come around, all vague claims of "the game will die without this!" sound very hollow.
Two years - yes 2 years after Skyrim was released it still has 30k players a day playing on steam - that's a single player game!! Estimate are for over a million still play skyrim weekly - for a 2 year old single player game with no multiplayer and no co-op that is unprecedented.
The current version you can buy is the 'legendary' edition - for once I think a game company is not exaggerating with the edition title!
Only his examples matter, because in his head, his opinions are "truth".
We may be wasting our time here. He's not getting his way, and we're better for it.
There is no doubt that once it launches -based on the current fan base - the opening few months will be colossal number of players - the question is Will all those players used to running the map alone and controlling the world alone - can handle dealing with millions of real people in 'their' world.
Hype machines predictably run wild.
I still remember the "GUILD WARS 2 WILL REVOLUTIONIZE MMOS FOREVER" cultists, here and on Old Republic and even on some other games I played at the time.
It may do well. Some PVP games do well, such as EVE Online. Others do not so well, such as Darkfall or Mortal Online. The ambiguity is in favor of saying here "no, there is no certainty we really need to cater to a small if very vocal and demanding group of people in our game."
it might have pvp in it...indeed pvp may well be part of the focus of its end game...but i very much doubt pvp will be foremost in the minds of the majority of people buying it...
It's got a PVP bend because one of its heads is a Dark Age of Camelot guy that basically got this IP and is ramming a square peg through a round hole, making a single player masterpiece and trying to turn it into Camelot Electric Bugaloo.
Maybe it will be good. Maybe the PVP will even be fun (wasn't that great in Dark Age of Camelot, especially due to the stealth ganks). But it doesn't have much of a foundation to build on, especially considering almost all of its Elder Scrolls portions have been tacked on near the end of development ("you can now move items on tables!") and that CGI trailer was painfully standard issue fantasy TRIBBLE.
Hey, I liked ****. And I like the ES series, I remain hopeful. But if anything may be said about ESO it's that it has really dumb helmets.
It's fine to like game-that-can-not-be-named. I don't know if it's a good fit for Elder Scrolls. Having a clumsily-assembled trio of "why are these guys allies again?" factions all fighting over the Imperial City sounds very questionable.
Hooray, "YOLOSWAG420" is now the Emperor of Cyrodil! Hail the conquerer and his mighty band "BLAZINIT".
The same could be said of corpse runs, permadeath, brutal encumbrance rules (you could DIE in MajorMUD if you were handed too many torches), spawn camps, and other "definitive" things that are already on the decline or faded away.
Yes, yes the all mighty "hardcore" will always mourn their passing. Let them.
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
Sounds a bit like STO.
And before the dogma is recited again, no, PVP is not absolutely necessary as a centerpiece or even as a priority in MMOs for them to be successful. Examples have already been given of that.
You are right in saying that broken things should of get fixed, but the problem is that sometimes the devs of various games implements what the PvP, or PvE crowd says, with some of their own tweaks, and that nice shiny armor you just got??
Now you might aswell just go into combat against the Borg in your underwear, for all the good that will do you...
Some times it's the PvP crowd that get things changed for what they think is better, but forgets that the item in question also is used a lot by the PvE crowd, or the other way around.
But most of the time it's actually a combination of suggestions from the players, and the devs themselves that makes items get nerfed, and a good deal of the time it's the devs that muck around too much, leaving us players going : "who thought that was a good change to do??"
So it's a trinity of, and let's be honest here, bad calls for changes, nerfs or other things that makes items lackluster...
And 80 man PvP slugfests aren't awesome?
Undoubtedly. I just think they're crazy for thinking a sub MMO is going to work in this day and age.
Pffffffffffffffch-hahahahaha!
My point there: Not all things that are "we did this before and did it for a long time" need to be around forever. Yeah, ****'s large pvp moments were neat for many. Thing is, it's still a very clumsy fit for Elder Scrolls, which is banking on Elder Scrolls fans to care about it.
If it was Canned Fantasy Wars Online and floated on its own merits, that'd be a different story altogether.
I have nothing to say about subs versus "free" MMOs. There is a very real problem with "free" games: griefers and cheaters can come back forever even when banned. Planetside 2 has that problem in a huge way.
I can laugh out loud in the exact same way at any and all claims of "this game NEEDS PVP or it will die" claims.