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Why do Pve'ers fear a pvp revamp?

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  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    ijimithy wrote: »
    Gonna be honest here but I've been reading this thread everyday now and You seem just a tad bitter and thats ok because if you get burned in PvP it can put anyone off however... heres my 2 cents and hear me out

    1. PvP isn't all evil incarnate, dreadful or full of egotistical people. Sure you are going to find a lot of people who are asses but that happens in PvE content too and as people have pointed out it happens more in PvE due to the amount of people who play it. I play PvP at least maybe 3/4 matches every day with friends from my fleet AND other fleets to mix it up a little and I encounter several people who are asses but I ignore them and I plan a way of beating them. Grant I may not be able to beat that person within a week or two but I will and when I do it will be worth it.

    2. Minimaxers exist both in PvE and PvP, I'm sure you have seen the DPS5K, 10K and so forth channels; their builds are meant and designed to be the best at a certain thing its only natural for all of us to specialise in something either in a game or real life and if you got stomped by them its because you or whoever it was was put in a Pug team by the queue and the queuing system is not perfect it will put odd groups together. There are special chat channels like Tyler Durden and oPvP that have people creating more balanced matches so no one gets stomped into the ground.

    My advice just try it again but don't let defeat get you. I dont care if I die in PvP or PvE content cos my ship just respawns I've lost nothing from it.

    "Gonna be honest" is already a red flag. Are you dishonest until you add this to a post? :rolleyes:

    I got as far as "you seem bitter" then stopped reading. Do you have anything, anything other than canned comebacks?

    I peeked at the end. It seems like a typical "just get over it" statement. Actually, YOU need to get over it. PVP isn't a priority, isn't likely to be, and so that's your problem, not mine.

    You can congratulate yourself all you like with your minmax builds and enjoy increasingly longer queues because you utterly obliterate any person that so much as peeks into your corner of the game.
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I do not wish to appear egotistical by quoting myself, but I worked fairly hard on the following post that I really believe may add a valuable facet to the current state of this thread.
    opo98 wrote: »
    I just happened upon this thread and thought that I could add something to it. Being the forum newbie that I am, I couldn't really get in on the heated part, but hopefully someone will see this post.

    I'm going to give a short disclaimer here for what I am about to say, because I warn you, it is controversial.

    What I see in this thread is much less of a problem with the PVP and PVE communities and more of a general problem that exists in our society that has propagated and ingrained itself in the way that we see one another. Like it or not, I see an unwillingness to consider another person's viewpoint, as shown by a lot of scapegoating and personal attacks on both sides.

    Our society I believe has taught us more and more so that "winning" an argument or getting the last word is more important than trying to cooperate to solve a problem. In this sense, there is a stark difference between debate and "word wars". Trying to hurt one another is not going to solve anything.

    Rather, I think that really the solution to this is continuous strife to consider aspects of both viewpoints.

    A few things I can point to in this thread as the concerns of PVP and PVE:

    PVE:
    -Is mad because there is the feeling that PVPers always nerf all of the useful things
    -Is frustrated because PVP is incredibly hard to get into and start, despite things like PVP boot camp.
    -Finds PVP pointless because it isn't interesting.

    PVP:
    -Is concerned for player numbers and sad because many people often leave PVP after dabbling.
    -Tired of grinding in PVE in order to obtain advantages in PVP.
    -Wants more than anything in the world to see PVP succeed so that it can be a more enjoyable experience for everyone.

    Looking at it like this, I don't see selfishness or hatred at all between the two, but rather a fundamental dysfunction in the game.

    A few solutions to solve these problems that I would propose are:
    -Making consoles / special abilities function differently for a player or an NPC.
    -Removing the artificial barrier of entry by Standardizing PVP gear and invalidating reputation stats.
    -Creating more maps for PVP, or use crowd sourcing like the foundry.

    These are just a few of the numerous things that could be done to enhance the PVP experience for everyone so that BOTH the "majority" and "minority" are happy. In this situation, PVErs get to keep their mob busting consoles, and they can be balanced for PVP accordingly. PVP would see a lot more newcomers, since a fresh level 50 could hop right in knowing that gear and passives were more or less equal among each ship type. PVP would also get new content with arguably minimal dev art team time, since players can pick that up.

    All in all, the potential for this games PVP system is definitely there, and it definitely does not have to come at the expense of PVErs.

    Whew, there it was. If there are any errors, forgive me. I used google translate from French to write this.

    Have a nice day. :)
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    opo98 wrote: »
    I do not wish to appear egotistical by quoting myself, but I worked fairly hard on the following post that I really believe may add a valuable facet to the current state of this thread.

    Failure. Like a politician saying "I'm an honest man" or a televangelist saying "I am a faithful family man", or for that matter like any internet denizen saying "no offense, but..." or "I hate to say this, but..." you're following that template, fully and embarassingly.

    You're appearing egotistical and there's very little evidence to the contrary. I get a hard time by a lot of people on this forum but I've yet to been narcissistic enough to quote myself, for that matter say how "valuable" yet another bluster of "hurr PVEers r scrubz" post is. The "they r mad" lol was especially cringeworthy.

    You're not helping this thread. Then again nothing can help this thread. The longer it goes the more polarizing it will be. And since I'm not interested in most of the "make PVEers get ganked by mandatory visits to PVP zones" idiocy here, that's for the best.
  • talajtalaj Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    By the way, I am just going to put this out here for the people using "waste of resources" as an excuse.

    In any typical developmental studio there are multiple departments and dozens of programmers. Youd be surprised at how easy it can be to divert manpower.

    Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.

    Those of you who never worked in the industry or have no real grasp of how game development is done, need to really understand that a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company (compared to putting the whole studio on crunch mode for yet another lockbox ship) that it would be a nearly 100 percent profit investment to them. Regardless of the size of said profit.

    The best time to do said revamp would be a generic game wide bugbash (which has been needed for a while anyway). Since systems and functions would already be being looked at, adding in a couple extra hours here and there to tune them for player versus player gameplay should be a walk in the park.


    Except it's never that simple with PvP - you should know that.

    There's a correlation that tends to hold true: the amount of resources you put into PvP, the more resources the PvP community starts requiring you to put into it on a continuous basis - yet the growth of the community often remains small or even stays flat.

    Or you do a revamp, go back to working on content that generates the vast majority of the game's revenue, and six months later you're back to square one with members of the PvP community moaning about stagnation, lack of fresh content, lack of people PvPing, etc.

    To generate and maintain a "healthy" PvP community requires constant attention, not just a one-off flurry of activity followed by months or years of nothing again - and that's where the real issue of cost comes into the debate of whether to pay attention to PvP, or not.
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Really? So a decrease in most things with an increase in useful abilities and more inventive uses for them and new potential combos is a bad thing? Do remember the NPCs would get adjusted to fit the new balancing arrangement, but options are a bad thing, opening up pvp to more people is a bad thing, making pvp more fun thanks to better balancing is a bad thing...

    The average player doesn't want complexity or even balance - they want to put together a cool-looking ship and pew-pew the bad guys with laser beams and torpedos, maybe chuck out some science magic too, and a fair number love having little pet ships that they can control via a simple command interface. A lot of players engage with MMOs like they're essentially single player games - it just so happens other players are involved too.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Failure. Like a politician saying "I'm an honest man" or a televangelist saying "I am a faithful family man", or for that matter like any internet denizen saying "no offense, but..." or "I hate to say this, but..." you're following that template, fully and embarassingly.

    You're appearing egotistical and there's very little evidence to the contrary. I get a hard time by a lot of people on this forum but I've yet to been narcissistic enough to quote myself, for that matter say how "valuable" yet another bluster of "hurr PVEers r scrubz" post is. The "they r mad" lol was especially cringeworthy.

    You're not helping this thread. Then again nothing can help this thread. The longer it goes the more polarizing it will be. And since I'm not interested in most of the "make PVEers get ganked by mandatory visits to PVP zones" idiocy here, that's for the best.

    Man did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed
    GwaoHAD.png
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Man did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed

    Modified "u seem bitter lol" cliche post. Useless, and a waste of extra text.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited December 2013
    AN honest question after reading so many comments from people saying no pvp update ever!

    I never understood how people find it a challenge to destroy stupid npc's who do the same thing EVERY TIME and are so vocal against a pvp fix. As a mostly pvp'er myself i don't care when pve stuff gets added so why the hel should they care if pvp gets an update they don't even have to play it c'mon on you guys have had 8 seasons!!! can we have one?


    Beam overload was nerfed to uselessness to Fix PvP so Pve has a busted ability
    BO is a worthless skilll now in PvE

    Beam fire at will has been busted ..no crits to fix PvP

    battery Doffs and marion Doff ruin Pve with stupid amounts of damage in Pve to support PvP spike damage

    PvP does not need a revamp

    It needs to be seperated from PvE totally as a seperate game with its own set of rules

    science abilitys are nerfed to uselessness right and left because in team play PvP there overpowered making the useless in PvE

    most science abilitys are not worth slotting on a ship

    No revamp

    Seperate from PvE
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    What did you have for breakfast this morning, Carnation instant B****
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  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    None of those things you mentioned are tied directly to PVP or have to come only from PVP, or for that matter come best from PVP. Unless you're one of those "trickle down" people that thinks that pandering to obnoxious elitists and spoonfeeding them means that everyone else benefits.

    PvP isn't the only source of elitism, frankly I see it more in pve "You aren't using this build and doing stupid dps therefore you're doing it wrong despite the fact you killed that thing faster than me and took less damage than me", I see this far more in pve than pvp. Regardless, players in pvp have far greater tendency to study abilities, their synergies, counters, etc than do PvEers, meaning that chances are if something is broken it'll be exploited in pvp and pve just the same (no prizes for guessing where the greater effect will be), thus balancing around pvp gives better chance for these things to get noticed and more importantly fixed.

    As previously stated, PvE built on PvP balance can be put together and forgotten about, this means players won't get frustrated with people exploiting OP stuff and/or cheese to achieve kills and after a few hours PvEers will have adjusted their builds and will barely notice the difference (depending upon how/if the NPCs are redone it may take a little more brain power to play (Oh God! The horror! That one might have to think to play a game!))
    Throw some more ellipses out to be contrary, or be a Reddit warrior with some other canned gesture of disapproval. You don't have much to stand on but things just that can come from well-crafted PVE, not just PVP.

    I'm still waiting on a sensible reply rather than some generic "I disagree with your position but I can't be bothered to put together a proper argument so I'll make a dismissive comment"
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  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    What did you have for breakfast this morning, Carnation instant B****

    If this is all you have left, and can offer nothing to the thread, let alone to my posts except "u mad" equivalents and middle school putdowns, that's pretty sad.

    Post something useful already. Your fixation with me and your by-the-numbers boring putdowns are useless.
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    PvP isn't the only source of elitism, frankly I see it more in pve "You aren't using this build and doing stupid dps therefore you're doing it wrong despite the fact you killed that thing faster than me and took less damage than me", I see this far more in pve than pvp. Regardless, players in pvp have far greater tendency to study abilities, their synergies, counters, etc than do PvEers, meaning that chances are if something is broken it'll be exploited in pvp and pve just the same (no prizes for guessing where the greater effect will be), thus balancing around pvp gives better chance for these things to get noticed and more importantly fixed.

    As previously stated, PvE built on PvP balance can be put together and forgotten about, this means players won't get frustrated with people exploiting OP stuff and/or cheese to achieve kills and after a few hours PvEers will have adjusted their builds and will barely notice the difference (depending upon how/if the NPCs are redone it may take a little more brain power to play (Oh God! The horror! That one might have to think to play a game!))



    I'm still waiting on a sensible reply rather than some generic "I disagree with your position but I can't be bothered to put together a proper argument so I'll make a dismissive comment"

    I'll restate the point and ignore your sniveling.

    PVE can do all the things you are pretending are only the realm of PVP. It's optional here. Not necessary. Period.
  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    It's that PvP offers a unique experience that PvE simply isn't capable of.

    I'm pretty sure sticking one's head in a toilet and flushing it offers a unique experience that PvE simply isn't capable of as well. If that's the best you got... -shrug-
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    If this is all you have left, and can offer nothing to the thread, let alone to my posts except "u mad" equivalents and middle school putdowns, that's pretty sad.

    Post something useful already. Your fixation with me and your by-the-numbers boring putdowns are useless.



    That's so cute you think i have a fixation on you, clearly you don't see me posting random TRIBBLE all over the forums every other day ... it's called the Sun, not the amalefactor
    GwaoHAD.png
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    That's so cute you think i have a fixation on you, clearly you don't see me posting random TRIBBLE all over the forums every other day ... it's called the Sun, not the amalefactor

    So you come and go like the Tooth Fairy, distributing recycled products from more creative people than you across the internet, leaving a "u mad" here and a "u seem bitter" there, and congratulate yourself on your useless posting.

    I'm not upset at you, more disappointed at how boring and flat you are.
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I'm pretty sure sticking one's head in a toilet and flushing it offers a unique experience that PvE simply isn't capable of as well. If that's the best you got... -shrug-

    Everything in the "hardcore" PVPer's bubble universe is awesome and necessary to this game and is the source of all good things in it. You just gotta be in the bubble to see that.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I'm the Chandler bing of the forums, I take other peoples jokes and just post them, because that's what I do, I don't hide it, nor am i trying to.

    Approval neither desired nor required.:D
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  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    I'm the Seth Macfarlane of the forums, I take other peoples jokes and just post them, because that's what I do, I don't hide it, nor am i trying to.

    Approval neither desired nor required.:D

    So you're wearing the "I am immune to everything because of self-referential irony and can float like a pixie from relevance to irrelevance and you can't touch me" button. Got it.

    Here's some light reading:

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/how-to-live-without-irony/

    When you're done with that feel free to post something other than recycled memes and form an opinion you have the spine to stand with.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I'll restate the point and ignore your sniveling.

    And you accuse others of being insulting... nice...

    PVE can do all the things you are pretending are only the realm of PVP.[/QUOTE]

    PVE can produce a pvp-like experience but the servers can't handle it but if you refuse to see that making two groups happy at the same time is a good thing and arguably better than making only one group of players happy, that's your problem, not mine
    It's optional here. Not necessary. Period.

    Do quote where I said otherwise.
    Everything in the "hardcore" PVEer's bubble universe is awesome and necessary to this game and is the source of all good things in it. You just gotta be in the bubble to see that.

    It seemed appropriate.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Even if moderate upgrades could be worked in without disrupting the rest of the game or forcing PVE equipment/power changes based upon PVP nitpicking, the "Life force of modern gaming" thing is laughably pretentious. And incorrect.

    Every method for gaming is dominated by PVP focused games excluding mobile. You can call me pretentious but FPS are dominating the console market and MOBA's dominate streaming services, YouTube views and PC gaming. Look at some sales figures and try to tell me otherwise.

    If you don't like PVP balance that's tough. PVE content is a joke and you're bad at the game if you need a couple of extra numbers here and there.
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    And you accuse others of being insulting... nice...

    PVE can do all the things you are pretending are only the realm of PVP.

    If you scroll back, I didn't bother even mentioning the insulting going around (give and take and self evident) until some of the PVP advocates here decided to play the victim card a few pages back and whine about PVEers insulting them and being meanyheads.

    The game's been chugging along, more or less, and it's entertaining enough to keep going, without having to drastically pander to a small, very vocal, self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing "YOU NEED US!" group of elitists. "WE MAKE ALL YOUR CONTENT AND BALANCE YOU NEED US" in one breath, then smack talk and "if you dont like premade stomps join a premade" dismissive TRIBBLE in the next.

    It's no wonder so few care about PVP in the actual game.
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    cidstorm wrote: »
    Every method for gaming is dominated by PVP focused games excluding mobile. You can call me pretentious but FPS are dominating the console market and MOBA's dominate streaming services, YouTube views and PC gaming. Look at some sales figures and try to tell me otherwise.

    If you don't like PVP balance that's tough. PVE content is a joke and you're bad at the game if you need a couple of extra numbers here and there.

    Since you're going the "if you don't like X then too bad route", look here. Right now. This game.

    It's not PVP focused or centric. And apparently it won't be for a long time, if ever.

    If you don't like it then too bad.

    A few years ago someone like you would likely say "every form of gaming is dominated by Farmville clones just deal with it and join in" :rolleyes:
  • talajtalaj Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    cidstorm wrote: »
    Every method for gaming is dominated by PVP focused games excluding mobile. You can call me pretentious but FPS are dominating the console market and MOBA's dominate streaming services, YouTube views and PC gaming. Look at some sales figures and try to tell me otherwise.

    Bringing up the burgeoning FPS & MOBA gaming industries isn't relevant when the discussion is MMORPGs.....
    you're bad at the game if you need a couple of extra numbers here and there.

    Following this logic, most serious PvPers must therefore be bad at the game. :rolleyes:
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    AN honest question after reading so many comments from people saying no pvp update ever!

    I never understood how people find it a challenge to destroy stupid npc's who do the same thing EVERY TIME and are so vocal against a pvp fix.

    Funny, I find most PvPers do the same thing over and over as well, lol.

    I wish they would update us on when they are adding PvP.
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    talaj wrote: »
    Bringing up the burgeoning FPS & MOBA gaming industries isn't relevant when the discussion is MMORPGs.....



    Following this logic, most serious PvPers must therefore be bad at the game. :rolleyes:

    This entire thread is full of bubble-world thinking and cherrypicking of data and anecdotes.

    Thing is, the burden is on the guys pushing the "omg pveers are afraid of our elite important necessary to MMOs group you need us u scrubz!!!1" thing. This isn't a PVP-centric game. I'd argue it shouldn't be, anyway.

    But the default to any proposal is to not go through with it. And in this case, especially considering what a circus this thread's been, they're not going anywhere.
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Funny, I find most PvPers do the same thing over and over as well, lol.

    I wish they would update us on when they are adding PvP.

    I fail to see how "use uber stacked template and premades and smacktalk anyone who actually queued" is any less ridiculous than killing NPCs.

    Face it. They dont want PVP. They want ganks. Their self-importance and posturing in this thread (not all PVPers, but the OP and the guys backing him up here) is evidence enough.

    Lots of "if you dont like it then look at guides X Y and Z and form a premade" is NOT a way to grow a community, PVP or otherwise.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    If you scroll back, I didn't bother even mentioning the insulting going around (give and take and self evident) until some of the PVP advocates here decided to play the victim card a few pages back and whine about PVEers insulting them and being meanyheads.

    Scroll through a few more threads and you'll see this is a common theme, then scroll through a few balance threads in the pve and pvp forum sections and notice how many complaints about things (balance related) per number of pages and in those threads which group gives more reasoned points and even well thought out and reasoned solutions.
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  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    This entire thread is full of bubble-world thinking and cherrypicking of data and anecdotes.

    And one guy critiquing everyone else's posts for 3 pages running now, contributing nothing but a "PMSing grammar psycho" flavor. :eek:
  • abystander0abystander0 Member Posts: 649 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Double post forum evil ><
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    And one guy critiquing everyone else's posts for 3 pages running now, contributing nothing but a "PMSing grammar psycho" flavor. :eek:

    And what are you doing, right here, right now, in this post?

    At best it's white knighting. But it looks more like small-time name calling with a vaguely misogynistic twist. Bravo.
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Since you're going the "if you don't like X then too bad route", look here. Right now. This game.

    It's not PVP focused or centric. And apparently it won't be for a long time, if ever.

    If you don't like it then too bad.

    A few years ago someone like you would likely say "every form of gaming is dominated by Farmville clones just deal with it and join in" :rolleyes:

    In my original post to which you responded by calling me pretentious I asked for moderate PVP updates. But now you've started calling me some sort of PVP purist. Your attack on me for being a PVP only jerk is hilarious because you're doing just that for PVE. MMO's are designed to cater to both groups of gamers and when PVP has never received a major update in the games lifetime we have a right to be mad.
This discussion has been closed.