Actually yes, because this is how flimsy some of the counter arguements sound.
The Klingon empire can have Klingons in other factions because there was one example, even though it makes little sense and in the current timeline we are looking at (STO) that exception sided with the empire and resides on Qo'nos.
This is acceptable, but by gum you can't have orions?
It sounds that odd.
And while we are bringing up canon and the lack of it. Why is JJverse non-canon even though an event from that revisioning is part of the backstory in STO?
Blaim the early feds for playable klingonfed toons. The fans wanted be like worf and this was before rhe KDF faction even existed.
Just like the AGT galaxy and the Cloaking Defiant, fedklingons exist due to fan outcry to emulate what they saw in thr Series.
STOs backstory firmly places the Orions in alliance with Empire. Since no cannon example exists to the other, no Orions for the feds.
You would have to ask Cryptic why they let Romulus be destroyed. My guess would be because it happened in the prime universe while the JJverse happend in another timeline.Which is why Vulcan still exists in STO.
If Cryptic makes a STO that has a destroyed Vulcan then, as shown in the JJverse, you will have cannical evidence of Orions in Starfleet. Of course there are no Klingons in StarFleet in the JJverse, so that option would no longer be availible in such a setting.
It's even weirder when you know that one of the co-authors of the first episode also co-wrote the second.
I mentally write this off as another case of trilithium.:)
Well, that actually makes me think they were meant to be the same race. It's kinda like with the Boslics, their first two appearances are in drastically different settings.
A bowl of gagh, a barrel of bloodwine and a good look from the sidelines.
I thought about that too and it makes sense at first glance.
"Let them vent their frustrations elsewhere."
BUT, that would mean allowing them to have combat capable ships and weapons.
And that's stuff the Kriosians could use against the Klingons too if they felt like it.;)
I'm gonna guess that the Klingons are smart enough to know how to install command override codes so that they can shut down the ship if it fires on any vessel of the Empire. Even the Arin'sen were shown to have ship in ENT.
Yeah, also, the KDF could give them the equivalent of MK3 disruptors or something. :P there's no reason to believe the Kriosians ever had good ships and weapons.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I can easily visualize the Klingons sitting back and laughing as a subject race fights a war with another race. They're not the kind of people to object to such things.
I could also see them televising some of the battles at the tavern, the barkeep taking wagers, and the klingons there taking sides and drinking, cheering their team on, just like we do with football.
I thought bathing suits already existed for feds? Though personslly hsve no objections to the bondage bikini bring an option. Just not the existing Orion graphics.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So I ask again: why not just make a green-skinned alien?
that was my first character. :P For some reason that now escapes me, I didn't want to play as Starfleet when I started playing the game, and even now it is reflected in my list of characters, only one of them is a typical Starfleet officer.
That could work.
I see as many humans made on alien template in KDF, as Orions made on alien template on Federation side.
^^^^
This would be acceptable and I think is a fairly decent Idea. I would think for the fact that Orions send their females into other cultures to sexually wrest control of them it would be very conceivable that ANY faction would have playable Orions.
I was countering that the Klingon argument was weak, but I don't see KDF clamouring to have Klingons removed from star fleet as well it happened once.
...when was the last time something was removed from the game that people paid for? While from a context and faction identity perspective I would be in favor of removing Klingons from the Federation faction, as a player I fully oppose taking away anything that myself or another has used Zen to purchase. Regardless, the Turkish Proverb still applies.
Ferengi, as a group raiding stealing and sabotaging the federation for their business interests. Allowed in as it is written off as a few loose cannons and not a racial/societal aspect.
Except I didn't sell any Founder of the Federation species to the Ferengi yesterday... that was the Orions. Orions do not have a leader that spent years working with Starfleet officers, whose son enlisted in Starfleet, and who has undertaken social reforms that increase freedoms within their society. Please top insulting the Ferengi during a time of social and cultural growth.
Deltans create pheromones as well and take inhibitors so they can function around 'less advanced' species. So pheromones alone is not a limiter. And for the acts of aggression shown by the orions being too much for the Federation to forgive, but they don't mind surgically altered spies poisoning grain for starving colonies. Giving weapons to developing pre-industrial societies. Or as an example from pre-federation, tried to attack a star fleet vessel for having the unmitigated gall to save their lives.
Yet history shows they did make peace with the Klingons and put all that behind them as well. Same for the cardassians, and now for romulans.
As far as Deltans, I would fully support half-naked Deltans running around ESD; that fits into the current context of STO, Orions do not. Orions really haven't displayed an interest in helping "less advanced" species function. The Federation is now back in conflict with the Klingons, and remains in conflict with the True Way and Tal Shiar. Furthermore, if you want a Cardassian you must use Alien-gen, and Romulans have their own mini-faction... Cardassians hopefully will get the same option eventually. And again... yeah, I arranged an "prisoner transfer" with the Orions just the other day...
I can get the kdf players not wanting to surrender another piece of their faction. If I had any say in the matter I would plan season 9 to be KDF centric and introduce new ships, costumes and areas in the empire. I would offer the purchasable race options to give one or two more to the kdf along with sharing the orions. Because if they are being left out of star fleet for previous actions but forgiving the rest, it really stinks in the federation.
My opposition for sharing Orions comes mostly from context and faction-identity issues. Especially with the current imbalance of the theoretically "primary" factions' available resources. I do not have a problem with adding new Federation species to the Federation, but I do oppose further diluting the factions without that being the actual goal. And yet again... Sell Prisoners to Orion Slavers. Yesterday. Sure I consider it an "alternative custody agreement", but still...
I would prefer a lively discussion of a balanced approach to sharing things to the cross purpose issues of story versus game imbalance.
As far as story issues, I'd be just fine with next season being the one that nukes the faction idea entirely. There hasn't been much of a commitment to maintaining two factions, so ending the charade from a mechanics standpoint would be acceptable. We could have an episode arc dedicated to ousting the Undine infiltrators in both Starfleet and the KDF, with the end reward being a grand alliance to finally focus on the Iconian threat. Captains could receive full access to all boffs, doffs, T1-4 ships, and purchasable costumes. However, starting faction should still be the determining factor for captain species, initial storyline, and end-game ships simply to preserve the current (and very good) faction storylines unless a MASSIVE retcon is applied.
Game balance has been... I think "out of" is a good descriptor to that. As far as gameplay balance, Orions (Physical Strength or Mental Discipline with Threat Reduction replacing the clicky, based on gender) are inferior to Vulcans (both genders receive Physical Strength and Mental Discipline). Actually, I'd love to see Betazoid captains get the Pacification (Placate and Stun, awesome) trait that Betazoid boffs have access to, it would be a nice counterpoint to Orion Seduce... though Vulcans currently have Mind Meld and Nerve Pinch in addition to similar species traits, so are probably a better comparison gameplay-wise.
If you mean ERP rather than gameplay, Orions do come out on top, pun intended. Socially... Deltans or Risians are a much more appropriate species for half-naked Federation captains, without undermining the attempts thus far at having more than one faction. Either of those species could provide the giggly-bit parity that the Federation is seeking, as could the devs adding swimsuit costume unlocks to the next Summer Event.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Socially... Deltans or Risians are a much more appropriate species for half-naked Federation captains, without undermining the attempts thus far at having more than one faction. Either of those species could provide the giggly-bit parity that the Federation is seeking, as could the devs adding swimsuit costume unlocks to the next Summer Event.
Excellent notion!
Cryptic, make it so!
(Though really... I have one female Orion KDF officer... and speaking as a male, I think I'll avoid roleplaying as a female as much as possible... So I won't be rolling up any female Deltans or Risians.)
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
...when was the last time something was removed from the game that people paid for? While from a context and faction identity perspective I would be in favor of removing Klingons from the Federation faction, as a player I fully oppose taking away anything that myself or another has used Zen to purchase. Regardless, the Turkish Proverb still applies.
Sorry the line was supposed to be. "I was countering that the Klingon argument was weak, but I don't see KDF clamouring to have Klingons removed from star fleet as well."
I really don't know what I was putting on the end there. Too many thoughts at once.
As for the rest, I was meaning the imbalance of the KDF being woefully behind in playable species, costumes, ships, and ship customization. I think both the KDF and RR need a few optional ships tossed in T1-4 so you have three per tier and then like the federation make certain each tier has a purchasable c-store version of each type. (IE science, tactical, engineering)
I would love to use Orions in Star Fleet as opposed to an alien generator. When comparing canon versus the current state of the game it becomes a mess as it really isn't a straight forward comparison.
If the other faction(s) were to get orions, then the KDF needs to get more back as they have the least. As is pointed out by a few others here, just taking from the KDF is watering them down immensely.
And I like the idea of wiping the war away as let's face it, PVE standpoint it is glossed over pretty quick. Only major issue is both factions have it in thier tutorials now. And they just did those.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Sorry the line was supposed to be. "I was countering that the Klingon argument was weak, but I don't see KDF clamouring to have Klingons removed from star fleet as well.
I really don't know what I was putting on the end there. Too many thoughts at once."
What you had the first time made sense; at least I interpreted it as meaning what you have above. I simply meant to counter that KDF players are still players... hopefully they don't want to take away something from other players that they paid for, even if that item doesn't make sense. The posters here haven't suggested taking something away, but rather not adding another thing that makes no sense in the current context.
As for the rest, I was meaning the imbalance of the KDF being woefully behind in playable species, costumes, ships, and ship customization. I think both the KDF and RR need a few optional ships tossed in T1-4 so you have three per tier and then like the federation make certain each tier has a purchasable c-store version of each type. (IE science, tactical, engineering)
I would love to use Orions in Star Fleet as opposed to an alien generator. When comparing canon versus the current state of the game it becomes a mess as it really isn't a straight forward comparison.
If the other faction(s) were to get orions, then the KDF needs to get more back as they have the least. As is pointed out by a few others here, just taking from the KDF is watering them down immensely.
And I like the idea of wiping the war away as let's face it, PVE standpoint it is glossed over pretty quick. Only major issue is both factions have it in thier tutorials now. And they just did those.
While I agree that the KDF is rather limited as far as resources, I don't see the sharing thing in general being a good way of maintaining the "flavor" of any of the factions. The RR as a mini-faction I can tolerate having less in the way of lower tier options, though they do need that rumored "Vesta equivalent" (as does the KDF). Adding new toys for any faction is good, even if the KDF get far less in the way of that; diluting the base faction identity, even should the war be finally wrapped up, simply doesn't benefit the game as a whole.
Canon... part of that is the couple hundred years and multiple timelines/universes we have to keep track of. The devs have actually gone to some effort to maintain that even while continuing the story... seriously, it took some time to trace through Memory Alpha on Orion history (in more than one timeline/universe) and Federation law. I did, however, do just that before arguing against playable Orion captains being added to the Federation faction. I reiterate my request for Deltans, Risians, swimsuit costume unlocks, or a combination of the three... I truly do believe that the game should aim for full parity across both of the "primary" factions in every aspect (including giggly-bits) . Supporting parity does not mean I support diluting the factions themselves, however. Similarly, the KDF/RR should have a Multi-Mission Science Vessel equivalent... not a Starfleet Multi-Mission Science Vessel.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
(Though really... I have one female Orion KDF officer... and speaking as a male, I think I'll avoid roleplaying as a female as much as possible... So I won't be rolling up any female Deltans or Risians.)
You probably ought to listen to the first part of The Foundry Roundtable #32. If you're writing or RP'ing a female character in Starfleet, or really any military setting, unless their sex is directly relevant to the story they should be an officer first and a woman second.
There's no real secret to having a strong female character. It's just a strong character who happens to be female.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You probably ought to listen to the first part of The Foundry Roundtable #32. If you're writing or RP'ing a female character in Starfleet, or really any military setting, unless their sex is directly relevant to the story they should be an officer first and a woman second.
There's no real secret to having a strong female character. It's just a strong character who happens to be female.
**slowclap**
I wonder what it'd be like if someone RPed a guy the way they RP women.
I imagine it'd be a lot like a sci-fi sequel to the film Porky's.
Am I the only one who thinks that the argument against Orions in Starfleet that basically boils down to all Orions are criminals is kind of racist.
I also laugh at all of the justifications thrown around about how they can be in Starfleet in the JJverse but not in the Primeverse, especially since 1) they are pretty much convoluted a@#pulls, and 2) Are again kind of racist.
The reasoning that there are exceptions to the rule who wish to be affiliated with the Federation is sound; we have plenty of examples of it happening before (Worf, Nog, etc.). So from that perspective you could certainly argue for a Fed Orion.
However, if you follow this course of dialogue... you can justify pretty much any species as playable for the Feds. Maybe there are some Alpha Jem'Hadar who are open to the ideals of peace. And we saw in the Breen FE that some of them believe their government is in the wrong. Why not playable Fed Jem'Hadar or Breen?
Somewhere, a line has to be drawn as to which species can be playable.
I think Cryptic has handled the situation reasonably elegantly. Keeping the main Federation species as those seen there in canon is somewhat arbitrary, sure, but it keeps Starfleet feeling more like the Starfleet we saw in the shows. For the others, we can get unique bridge officers from missions or diplomacy, and there's always the Alien BOFF/player option, both of which give players options to the "exceptions to the rule". I think those odd exceptions are represented fairly in this game, and there's no need to open things up further.
Am I the only one who thinks that the argument against Orions in Starfleet that basically boils down to all Orions are criminals is kind of racist.
I also laugh at all of the justifications thrown around about how they can be in Starfleet in the JJverse but not in the Primeverse, especially since 1) they are pretty much convoluted a@#pulls, and 2) Are again kind of racist.
I kinda mentioned the racist concept and was mocked for pulling the race card and for a fictional race in a game.
While I still would like to have an orion in star fleet, I have to agree that seeing Deltans would probably be more in keeping with themes.
(Though I am thinking they got dropped for the betazoids.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Am I the only one who thinks that the argument against Orions in Starfleet that basically boils down to all Orions are criminals is kind of racist.
I also laugh at all of the justifications thrown around about how they can be in Starfleet in the JJverse but not in the Primeverse, especially since 1) they are pretty much convoluted a@#pulls, and 2) Are again kind of racist.
Not really, it is actually racist. Then again, the race/species system in any MMO is kind of racist. For example:
Why can't a Pakled take the Astrophysicist trait? There must be at least one Pakled capable of understanding astrophysics, and Pakled can graduate from Starfleet Academy with training in the Science career...
Why can't Tellarite males wear Orion female costumes? There's a Tailor that should be able to make the appropriate alterations...
Why are Humans the only ones with Leadership? D'Tan is a good enough leader to help his people found an entirely new government and find a new homeworld, all the while convincing two warring factions to provide assistance...
The simple truth is that any MMO with more than one race/species is inherently racist... and this is a good thing. The separate races/species add to the complexity of both character building and RP. If we really wanted STO to be free of species distinctions there's a simple solution: no species, only Alien-gen. That players want Orions in the Federation is also racist, since clearly the other Federation races aren't good enough for those players, and Alien-gen "isn't the same" as having an Orion.
[HUMOR] You're an anti-Benzite, you'd rather have Orions :P [/HUMOR]
In game terms and real life, Human racism is blatantly fallacious... different colored Humans are all Humans. This does not make a Ferengi into an Orion, nor does it make all humanoids identical or even capable of interbreeding. Some species interbreed, while some do not, even in various Star Trek TV series and movies. There are different oxidizing agents in some species' blood relative to others, some are Cold Dwelling while others are Cold Blooded, some develop incredibly advanced technology while others simply "look for thing to make us go". Thus, yes, racist because they are in context different races.
Look at Star Trek carefully and you begin to see archetypes start to crop up. You see the noble explorer, the honorable warrior, the brutal hunter, the wily merchant, the cunning imperialist, the trickster god and so forth. That these same archetypes are filled by specific species is racism of a fashion, but it is part of the lore of Trek. It is racist to have any species restrictions for either faction, and to judge the ones available to either faction to be inferior to those of the other. From the same point of view that says that looking at canon and suggesting that Orions would not be appropriate for prime universe Starfleet in 2409, you have to admit that looking at the species available to Starfleet and suggesting that you should have something else is also racist.
As far as JJ Trek vs STO... JJ Trek actually established the break from the prime universe with the Hobus Incident, having Spock drop Red Matter into the middle of the super (duper?) nova, and having both Spock and the Narada thrown back in time to initiate an entirely new chain of events. JJ probably did this intentionally, so that he did not need to be bound by the preexisting canon from decades of movies and TV series, but that also means that JJ Trek is not relevant to STO Trek. You can blame JJ for that one; the folks referencing the distinction simply bothered to pay attention to it.
TL;DR Looking at canon as a source for a species' role in STO is racist; so is canon, so is having different species in the first place, so is asking for a species specifically. That doesn't make any of it relevant to the discussion, merely an interesting off-topic discussion. The idea that species distinction and using species to fill basic archetypes embodies racism amongst MMO players might be a fun discussion to have in the Ten Forward section, though. From a gameplay standpoint, the only relevant points are the game's lore and faction balance, nothing more, nothing less.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
Blaim the early feds for playable klingonfed toons. The fans wanted be like worf and this was before rhe KDF faction even existed.
Just like the AGT galaxy and the Cloaking Defiant, fedklingons exist due to fan outcry to emulate what they saw in thr Series.
STOs backstory firmly places the Orions in alliance with Empire. Since no cannon example exists to the other, no Orions for the feds.
You would have to ask Cryptic why they let Romulus be destroyed. My guess would be because it happened in the prime universe while the JJverse happend in another timeline.Which is why Vulcan still exists in STO.
If Cryptic makes a STO that has a destroyed Vulcan then, as shown in the JJverse, you will have cannical evidence of Orions in Starfleet. Of course there are no Klingons in StarFleet in the JJverse, so that option would no longer be availible in such a setting.
R.I.P
Yeah, also, the KDF could give them the equivalent of MK3 disruptors or something. :P there's no reason to believe the Kriosians ever had good ships and weapons.
My character Tsin'xing
just the bikini will do
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
-- Smoov
I thought bathing suits already existed for feds? Though personslly hsve no objections to the bondage bikini bring an option. Just not the existing Orion graphics.
R.I.P
Natta
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
My character Tsin'xing
Onestly, nothing of value would be lost if this Orion bikini would be straight removed from the game. From every faction save for NPC slavegirls. :X
^^^^
This would be acceptable and I think is a fairly decent Idea. I would think for the fact that Orions send their females into other cultures to sexually wrest control of them it would be very conceivable that ANY faction would have playable Orions.
We Orions take a lot of pride in our uniform. It is NOT a bikini.
-- Smoov
...when was the last time something was removed from the game that people paid for? While from a context and faction identity perspective I would be in favor of removing Klingons from the Federation faction, as a player I fully oppose taking away anything that myself or another has used Zen to purchase. Regardless, the Turkish Proverb still applies.
Except I didn't sell any Founder of the Federation species to the Ferengi yesterday... that was the Orions. Orions do not have a leader that spent years working with Starfleet officers, whose son enlisted in Starfleet, and who has undertaken social reforms that increase freedoms within their society. Please top insulting the Ferengi during a time of social and cultural growth.
As far as Deltans, I would fully support half-naked Deltans running around ESD; that fits into the current context of STO, Orions do not. Orions really haven't displayed an interest in helping "less advanced" species function. The Federation is now back in conflict with the Klingons, and remains in conflict with the True Way and Tal Shiar. Furthermore, if you want a Cardassian you must use Alien-gen, and Romulans have their own mini-faction... Cardassians hopefully will get the same option eventually. And again... yeah, I arranged an "prisoner transfer" with the Orions just the other day...
My opposition for sharing Orions comes mostly from context and faction-identity issues. Especially with the current imbalance of the theoretically "primary" factions' available resources. I do not have a problem with adding new Federation species to the Federation, but I do oppose further diluting the factions without that being the actual goal. And yet again... Sell Prisoners to Orion Slavers. Yesterday. Sure I consider it an "alternative custody agreement", but still...
As far as story issues, I'd be just fine with next season being the one that nukes the faction idea entirely. There hasn't been much of a commitment to maintaining two factions, so ending the charade from a mechanics standpoint would be acceptable. We could have an episode arc dedicated to ousting the Undine infiltrators in both Starfleet and the KDF, with the end reward being a grand alliance to finally focus on the Iconian threat. Captains could receive full access to all boffs, doffs, T1-4 ships, and purchasable costumes. However, starting faction should still be the determining factor for captain species, initial storyline, and end-game ships simply to preserve the current (and very good) faction storylines unless a MASSIVE retcon is applied.
Game balance has been... I think "out of" is a good descriptor to that. As far as gameplay balance, Orions (Physical Strength or Mental Discipline with Threat Reduction replacing the clicky, based on gender) are inferior to Vulcans (both genders receive Physical Strength and Mental Discipline). Actually, I'd love to see Betazoid captains get the Pacification (Placate and Stun, awesome) trait that Betazoid boffs have access to, it would be a nice counterpoint to Orion Seduce... though Vulcans currently have Mind Meld and Nerve Pinch in addition to similar species traits, so are probably a better comparison gameplay-wise.
If you mean ERP rather than gameplay, Orions do come out on top, pun intended. Socially... Deltans or Risians are a much more appropriate species for half-naked Federation captains, without undermining the attempts thus far at having more than one faction. Either of those species could provide the giggly-bit parity that the Federation is seeking, as could the devs adding swimsuit costume unlocks to the next Summer Event.
Excellent notion!
Cryptic, make it so!
(Though really... I have one female Orion KDF officer... and speaking as a male, I think I'll avoid roleplaying as a female as much as possible... So I won't be rolling up any female Deltans or Risians.)
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Sorry the line was supposed to be. "I was countering that the Klingon argument was weak, but I don't see KDF clamouring to have Klingons removed from star fleet as well."
I really don't know what I was putting on the end there. Too many thoughts at once.
As for the rest, I was meaning the imbalance of the KDF being woefully behind in playable species, costumes, ships, and ship customization. I think both the KDF and RR need a few optional ships tossed in T1-4 so you have three per tier and then like the federation make certain each tier has a purchasable c-store version of each type. (IE science, tactical, engineering)
I would love to use Orions in Star Fleet as opposed to an alien generator. When comparing canon versus the current state of the game it becomes a mess as it really isn't a straight forward comparison.
If the other faction(s) were to get orions, then the KDF needs to get more back as they have the least. As is pointed out by a few others here, just taking from the KDF is watering them down immensely.
And I like the idea of wiping the war away as let's face it, PVE standpoint it is glossed over pretty quick. Only major issue is both factions have it in thier tutorials now. And they just did those.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
What you had the first time made sense; at least I interpreted it as meaning what you have above. I simply meant to counter that KDF players are still players... hopefully they don't want to take away something from other players that they paid for, even if that item doesn't make sense. The posters here haven't suggested taking something away, but rather not adding another thing that makes no sense in the current context.
While I agree that the KDF is rather limited as far as resources, I don't see the sharing thing in general being a good way of maintaining the "flavor" of any of the factions. The RR as a mini-faction I can tolerate having less in the way of lower tier options, though they do need that rumored "Vesta equivalent" (as does the KDF). Adding new toys for any faction is good, even if the KDF get far less in the way of that; diluting the base faction identity, even should the war be finally wrapped up, simply doesn't benefit the game as a whole.
Canon... part of that is the couple hundred years and multiple timelines/universes we have to keep track of. The devs have actually gone to some effort to maintain that even while continuing the story... seriously, it took some time to trace through Memory Alpha on Orion history (in more than one timeline/universe) and Federation law. I did, however, do just that before arguing against playable Orion captains being added to the Federation faction. I reiterate my request for Deltans, Risians, swimsuit costume unlocks, or a combination of the three... I truly do believe that the game should aim for full parity across both of the "primary" factions in every aspect (including giggly-bits) . Supporting parity does not mean I support diluting the factions themselves, however. Similarly, the KDF/RR should have a Multi-Mission Science Vessel equivalent... not a Starfleet Multi-Mission Science Vessel.
You probably ought to listen to the first part of The Foundry Roundtable #32. If you're writing or RP'ing a female character in Starfleet, or really any military setting, unless their sex is directly relevant to the story they should be an officer first and a woman second.
There's no real secret to having a strong female character. It's just a strong character who happens to be female.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
CBS said no ages ago.
**slowclap**
I wonder what it'd be like if someone RPed a guy the way they RP women.
I imagine it'd be a lot like a sci-fi sequel to the film Porky's.
I also laugh at all of the justifications thrown around about how they can be in Starfleet in the JJverse but not in the Primeverse, especially since 1) they are pretty much convoluted a@#pulls, and 2) Are again kind of racist.
However, if you follow this course of dialogue... you can justify pretty much any species as playable for the Feds. Maybe there are some Alpha Jem'Hadar who are open to the ideals of peace. And we saw in the Breen FE that some of them believe their government is in the wrong. Why not playable Fed Jem'Hadar or Breen?
Somewhere, a line has to be drawn as to which species can be playable.
I think Cryptic has handled the situation reasonably elegantly. Keeping the main Federation species as those seen there in canon is somewhat arbitrary, sure, but it keeps Starfleet feeling more like the Starfleet we saw in the shows. For the others, we can get unique bridge officers from missions or diplomacy, and there's always the Alien BOFF/player option, both of which give players options to the "exceptions to the rule". I think those odd exceptions are represented fairly in this game, and there's no need to open things up further.
I kinda mentioned the racist concept and was mocked for pulling the race card and for a fictional race in a game.
While I still would like to have an orion in star fleet, I have to agree that seeing Deltans would probably be more in keeping with themes.
(Though I am thinking they got dropped for the betazoids.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Not really, it is actually racist. Then again, the race/species system in any MMO is kind of racist. For example:
Why can't a Pakled take the Astrophysicist trait? There must be at least one Pakled capable of understanding astrophysics, and Pakled can graduate from Starfleet Academy with training in the Science career...
Why can't Tellarite males wear Orion female costumes? There's a Tailor that should be able to make the appropriate alterations...
Why are Humans the only ones with Leadership? D'Tan is a good enough leader to help his people found an entirely new government and find a new homeworld, all the while convincing two warring factions to provide assistance...
The simple truth is that any MMO with more than one race/species is inherently racist... and this is a good thing. The separate races/species add to the complexity of both character building and RP. If we really wanted STO to be free of species distinctions there's a simple solution: no species, only Alien-gen. That players want Orions in the Federation is also racist, since clearly the other Federation races aren't good enough for those players, and Alien-gen "isn't the same" as having an Orion.
[HUMOR] You're an anti-Benzite, you'd rather have Orions :P [/HUMOR]
In game terms and real life, Human racism is blatantly fallacious... different colored Humans are all Humans. This does not make a Ferengi into an Orion, nor does it make all humanoids identical or even capable of interbreeding. Some species interbreed, while some do not, even in various Star Trek TV series and movies. There are different oxidizing agents in some species' blood relative to others, some are Cold Dwelling while others are Cold Blooded, some develop incredibly advanced technology while others simply "look for thing to make us go". Thus, yes, racist because they are in context different races.
Look at Star Trek carefully and you begin to see archetypes start to crop up. You see the noble explorer, the honorable warrior, the brutal hunter, the wily merchant, the cunning imperialist, the trickster god and so forth. That these same archetypes are filled by specific species is racism of a fashion, but it is part of the lore of Trek. It is racist to have any species restrictions for either faction, and to judge the ones available to either faction to be inferior to those of the other. From the same point of view that says that looking at canon and suggesting that Orions would not be appropriate for prime universe Starfleet in 2409, you have to admit that looking at the species available to Starfleet and suggesting that you should have something else is also racist.
As far as JJ Trek vs STO... JJ Trek actually established the break from the prime universe with the Hobus Incident, having Spock drop Red Matter into the middle of the super (duper?) nova, and having both Spock and the Narada thrown back in time to initiate an entirely new chain of events. JJ probably did this intentionally, so that he did not need to be bound by the preexisting canon from decades of movies and TV series, but that also means that JJ Trek is not relevant to STO Trek. You can blame JJ for that one; the folks referencing the distinction simply bothered to pay attention to it.
TL;DR Looking at canon as a source for a species' role in STO is racist; so is canon, so is having different species in the first place, so is asking for a species specifically. That doesn't make any of it relevant to the discussion, merely an interesting off-topic discussion. The idea that species distinction and using species to fill basic archetypes embodies racism amongst MMO players might be a fun discussion to have in the Ten Forward section, though. From a gameplay standpoint, the only relevant points are the game's lore and faction balance, nothing more, nothing less.
Thats why most people want Orions anyway......:D
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
it was in the works but jellico decided it was unprofessional... :P
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
[khan Bellow]jeeelliiiiccooooooooooo!![/khan Bellow]
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
*cough* Mirror Universe *cough cough hack*
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