First, the Federation does not accept gifts. Note that Nog's money was turned down.
And it fails to explain the sheer number of Klingons in Star Fleet.
A single rule that disallows one race has a name to it.
To be fair to both sides, I don't think such a rule exists but at some point the "we want what they haveritis" has to have an end.
Not too long ago people clamored for Fed Gorn (I won't repeat the "logic" behind it here, I found it offensive).
To be fair to both sides, I don't think such a rule exists but at some point the "we want what they haveritis" has to have an end.
Not too long ago people clamored for Fed Gorn (I won't repeat the "logic" behind it here, I found it offensive).
Oh I don't know if they put some federation ships in lock boxes with Klingon skins they might be sellable as pirated vessels. But that is for a different thread.
My original post was for allowing more races in each of the factions. Interestingly when this is mentioned KDF followers are against sharing. I suppose the only real option left to cryptic is ignore races and faction uniforms and run with what they began with sphere of influence. One ship everyone has it. Purchasable ship that everyone gets. Less work for them.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Oh I don't know if they put some federation ships in lock boxes with Klingon skins they might be sellable as pirated vessels. But that is for a different thread.
My original post was for allowing more races in each of the factions. Interestingly when this is mentioned KDF followers are against sharing. I suppose the only real option left to cryptic is ignore races and faction uniforms and run with what they began with sphere of influence. One ship everyone has it. Purchasable ship that everyone gets. Less work for them.
There are still a LOT of canon races that can be added into the game without encroaching onto the ones the other side(s) have.
Just some random names I can think of in a minute or so.
Federation:
Deltan (can easily run with the Orion traits)
Efrosian (guess which forum member would be dancing and singing)
Coridan
Ktarian
KDF:
Chalnoth (respect strength)
Augmented Klingons (you and I talked about them here)
RR:
Flaxian
Corvallen (mercs like Nausicaans)
KDF players are usually against sharing because:
-a lot of them like their factions (all of them) to be diverse
-the KDF faction has less stuff to begin with and it seems transfers mostly go into one direction only.
And last I checked Bajorans are still neutral but enter Star fleet.
[nitpick]Actually, according to The Path to 2409 Bajor was admitted to the Federation in 2384 and gained full membership in 2393.[/nitpick]
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
First, the Federation does not accept gifts. Note that Nog's money was turned down.
And it fails to explain the sheer number of Klingons in Star Fleet.
A single rule that disallows one race has a name to it.
Doesnt matter if the feds accept gifts of not as the Orions never allied with the feds due to being pursecuted by them for being a criminal syndicate.
Klingons exist in StarFleet thanks to Worf setting the precident in TNG and the option was added to fedplay in the early days of the games creation due to the fanbase of Worf.
Racism? Kinda silly to elude to racism over a non-existant race, especially when the ingame backstory explains why said race has been disallowed.
Really?? Pulling race card?? How Democratic of you.
There are still a LOT of canon races that can be added into the game without encroaching onto the ones the other side(s) have.
Just some random names I can think of in a minute or so.
Federation:
Deltan (can easily run with the Orion traits)
Efrosian (guess which forum member would be dancing and singing)
Coridan
Ktarian
KDF:
Chalnoth (respect strength)
Augmented Klingons (you and I talked about them here)
RR:
Flaxian
Corvallen (mercs like Nausicaans)
KDF players are usually against sharing because:
-a lot of them like their factions (all of them) to be diverse
-the KDF faction has less stuff to begin with and it seems transfers mostly go into one direction only.
Why not the Kriosians and Arin'sen? Those are known in canon as KDF subject races. It'd be easy to justify having them serve in the KDF military as they've been subjects of the Klingon empire far longer than the Gorn have.(Arin'Sen were seen to be KDF subjects in Archer's time, and Kriosians in TNG era)
Why not the Kriosians and Arin'sen? Those are known in canon as KDF subject races. It'd be easy to justify having them serve in the KDF military as they've been subjects of the Klingon empire far longer than the Gorn have.(Arin'Sen were seen to be KDF subjects in Archer's time, and Kriosians in TNG era)
Probably because even in soft-canon, like the Gorkon novels, the Klingons only allow their subject races to be on their ships as servants and nothing beyond.
That's the reason the status of the Gorn as a self-runling people is such an important distinction.
And in case of the Kriosians the whole thing is very murky considering they were on the one hand supposed to be Klingon subjects and on the other they were supposedly an empire and at war with another race...how does that even work?
Also the colony world in "In the Mind's Eye" was called Krios while the one in "Perfect Mate" was called Krios Prime and their supposed status as Klingon subjects was never brought up.
On top of that while Memory Alpha claims the two are the same species the official startrek.com website explicitly states the two people should not be confused with each other.
So? This is STO, where Orions fly Klingon ships. That never happened in the TV show either.
Anyways, my copy of the 1999 Star Trek Encyclopedia says:
Krios: Class-M planet in the Kriosian system, controlled by the Klingon Empire. In 2367, Captain Pcard and Klingon Ambassador Kell met with Klingon governor Vagh at Krios, following a Kriosian revolt that the Klingons believed had been supported by the Federation. ("The Mind's Eye" [TNG])
The inhabitants of Krioshad been at war with the neighboring system, Valt Minor, for centuries. {stuff about the war} In 2368, a historic Ceremony of Reconciliation was held in hopes of ending the centuries of conflict. ("The Perfect Mate" [TNG])
Sooo... yeah. It treats them as the same race. It does seem odd that a subject race would be allowed to have their own private war fought with starships, but this is the Klingon Empire.
True, we never saw Orions glying KDF ships in the TV shows.
Of course thd Orions where not allied yo the Empire in the TV shows either.
They are allied in STO though.
So? This is STO, where Orions fly Klingon ships. That never happened in the TV show either.
Anyways, my copy of the 1999 Star Trek Encyclopedia says:
Krios: Class-M planet in the Kriosian system, controlled by the Klingon Empire. In 2367, Captain Pcard and Klingon Ambassador Kell met with Klingon governor Vagh at Krios, following a Kriosian revolt that the Klingons believed had been supported by the Federation. ("The Mind's Eye" [TNG])
The inhabitants of Krioshad been at war with the neighboring system, Valt Minor, for centuries. {stuff about the war} In 2368, a historic Ceremony of Reconciliation was held in hopes of ending the centuries of conflict. ("The Perfect Mate" [TNG])
Sooo... yeah. It treats them as the same race. It does seem odd that a subject race would be allowed to have their own private war fought with starships, but this is the Klingon Empire.
I'm actually not talking about something that didn't happen on the show, but a connection that didn't make any sense on the show in the first place.:)
It makes even less sense that the Klingons would allow them to have ambassadors, have the Federation handle their disputes and then not even have this noteworthy in any way in the episode.
So even under such conditions it would only work assuming the Kriosians actually won their independence...and nobody found it worth mentioning in the episode either.
"Planet: Krios. The tall, slender humanoid members if this species share similarities in their skin pigments ? a dark-spotted, skin pattern along the hairline and down the neck and spine ? with the Valtese, not unlike some Trill hosts. No strangers to the outside galaxy, they educate Kamala about topics ranging from archaeology to Earth's Shakespeare and rich musical traditions, as well as about the culture of Valtese. This race should not be confused with another group of Kriosians, who were fighting for independence as a Klingon colony in 2367."
And just because it's the Klingon Empire means we must not use anything remotely resemble common sense, or how am I supposed to take that statement?
This makes even less sense under Klingon control than for example a Federation planet in a conflict with a neighbour since we've seen how harshly the Klingons control their subject population.
Oh I don't know if they put some federation ships in lock boxes with Klingon skins they might be sellable as pirated vessels. But that is for a different thread.
My original post was for allowing more races in each of the factions. Interestingly when this is mentioned KDF followers are against sharing. I suppose the only real option left to cryptic is ignore races and faction uniforms and run with what they began with sphere of influence. One ship everyone has it. Purchasable ship that everyone gets. Less work for them.
We're against having everything that is uniquely KDF, stolen and made part of the UFP also, just because a handful of vocal people want to have what KDF has without joining the KDF.
More race options are fine, and are a good thing, in and of itself...
But...
The UFP is a collection of MANY races, and the UFP has a ton more Federation races to draw from to diversify the options available for UFP players. Any new races that become available to UFP players, should be coming from the already existing UFP-aligned races.
Not taking from another faction and shoe-horning them in using some twisted logic people have been using to rationalize why they should be allowed to have what they want, no matter what.
I'm actually not talking about something that didn't happen on the show, but a connection that didn't make any sense on the show in the first place.:)
It makes even less sense that the Klingons would allow them to have ambassadors, have the Federation handle their disputes and then not even have this noteworthy in any way in the episode.
So even under such conditions it would only work assuming the Kriosians actually won their independence...and nobody found it worth mentioning in the episode either.
"Planet: Krios. The tall, slender humanoid members if this species share similarities in their skin pigments ? a dark-spotted, skin pattern along the hairline and down the neck and spine ? with the Valtese, not unlike some Trill hosts. No strangers to the outside galaxy, they educate Kamala about topics ranging from archaeology to Earth's Shakespeare and rich musical traditions, as well as about the culture of Valtese. This race should not be confused with another group of Kriosians, who were fighting for independence as a Klingon colony in 2367."
And just because it's the Klingon Empire means we must not use anything remotely resemble common sense, or how am I supposed to take that statement?
This makes even less sense under Klingon control than for example a Federation planet in a conflict with a neighbour since we've seen how harshly the Klingons control their subject population.
It's possible that the two episodes were talking about different planets, but the same race. Either way though, yeah it's weird.
I can easily visualize the Klingons sitting back and laughing as a subject race fights a war with another race. They're not the kind of people to object to such things.
Racism? Kinda silly to elude to racism over a non-existant race, especially when the ingame backstory explains why said race has been disallowed.
Really?? Pulling race card?? How Democratic of you.
Actually yes, because this is how flimsy some of the counter arguements sound.
The Klingon empire can have Klingons in other factions because there was one example, even though it makes little sense and in the current timeline we are looking at (STO) that exception sided with the empire and resides on Qo'nos.
This is acceptable, but by gum you can't have orions?
It sounds that odd.
And while we are bringing up canon and the lack of it. Why is JJverse non-canon even though an event from that revisioning is part of the backstory in STO?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
We're against having everything that is uniquely KDF, stolen and made part of the UFP also, just because a handful of vocal people want to have what KDF has without joining the KDF.
More race options are fine, and are a good thing, in and of itself...
But...
The UFP is a collection of MANY races, and the UFP has a ton more Federation races to draw from to diversify the options available for UFP players. Any new races that become available to UFP players, should be coming from the already existing UFP-aligned races.
Not taking from another faction and shoe-horning them in using some twisted logic people have been using to rationalize why they should be allowed to have what they want, no matter what.
-- Smoov
No time to break this apart apologies.
I can understand not wanting to lose everything unique to the faction. The arguement is that the orions are the part that should not be unique while the klingons themselves should.
The original suggestion I made was to spread out races that by any stretch could fit to another faction. Someone had suggested Vulcans living with romulans in the republic, another had mentioned ferengi. The backlash about ferengi was so fierce you would think BoPs were taken from the KDF totally. And I recommended letting the kdf use betazoids. Not because I think they are particularly desirable for the empire but to spread some federation races out so it is not just taking from the KDF but allowing them more options as well.
Though thinking on it Vulcans as playable across factions sounds more likely. After all at least one vulcan felt joining the maquis was logical. Perhaps they feel that the federation putting on blinders about the undine is a mistake and therefore to ensure the future of the alpha quadrant that joining the empire is/was logical.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Actually yes, because this is how flimsy some of the counter arguements sound.
The Klingon empire can have Klingons in other factions because there was one example, even though it makes little sense and in the current timeline we are looking at (STO) that exception sided with the empire and resides on Qo'nos.
This is acceptable, but by gum you can't have orions?
It sounds that odd.
And while we are bringing up canon and the lack of it. Why is JJverse non-canon even though an event from that revisioning is part of the backstory in STO?
That actually argues against Orions in Starfleet. Klingons actually should not be a playable species for the Federation; even Worf left, which sort of negates the "but Worf was in the Federation" argument. From a command perspective, it seems like a foolish decision to send a member of a species that values honor into a war against their own people. Take the Turkish proverb: No matter how far you have gone on a wrong road, turn back.
Then, from the Memory Alpha article the OP referenced, there are biological issues and the political history to consider. While I could see male Orions on a Starfleet vessel, the pheromones females of the species release would wreak havoc on crew performance with Human and Denobulan crewmembers. Further, Orions have a long history of maintaining a false pretense of neutrality while raiding Federation space for slaves (Tellarites, Founder of the Federation) and dilithium (Coridans, member of the Federation). Giving a member of that same species command of a Federation warship seems... ill advised.
As far as JJ Trek... that is canon. STO takes place in the original main universe, JJ Trek takes place in a divergent one. I suppose some genius in the JJverse could create a thalaron-induced super nova and drop some red matter into it just to bring a Federation Orion into this universe, but again the Memory Alpha article the OP referred to clearly states that "To date, no Orion Starfleet officers have been seen in the main universe." Even in the JJverse, however, long-term exposure to an Orion female seems like it could lead to workplace incidents. The Apocrypha section concerning Gaila mentions that "the attention Gaila receives from the Human technicians is visually and chemically unavoidable, yet being around her for any long period of time could be downright dangerous."
[EDIT] I also forgot to point out that JJ Trek takes place somewhere around 2258 for the Academy scenes, before the Orions had been caught in acts of piracy in both 2268 (TOS) and 2270 (TAS). At that point (even in our timeline) Starfleet hadn't sorted out what the Orions had been up to, despite warnings from the Tellarites around 2155. Now (circa 2409) that the Federation is more fully aware of their activities, it seems less likely to have an Orion as a crewmember, much less captain, of a Starfleet vessel.
As I mentioned before, if you really believe Orions belong in Starfleet as a playable species despite their history in STO, then really every species should be available in the C-Store as a cross-faction unlock. Maybe you could adjust your petition to reflect this?
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
And while we are bringing up canon and the lack of it. Why is JJverse non-canon even though an event from that revisioning is part of the backstory in STO?
There's an important piece of stuff a lot of people appearently not know about:
there was a comic mini-series called "Countdown" which takes place in the Prime Universe and ends with the Narada and Spock's ship MIA in a certain black hole.
Those events, which involve stuff like Romulus going kaboom, Red Matter, the Vault etc are part of STO's backstory.
Everything that happens "after" that (= after the Narada exits that black hole) is not canon because that's from another universe.
It's possible that the two episodes were talking about different planets, but the same race. Either way though, yeah it's weird.
It's even weirder when you know that one of the co-authors of the first episode also co-wrote the second.
I mentally write this off as another case of trilithium.:)
I can easily visualize the Klingons sitting back and laughing as a subject race fights a war with another race. They're not the kind of people to object to such things.
A bowl of gagh, a barrel of bloodwine and a good look from the sidelines.
I thought about that too and it makes sense at first glance.
"Let them vent their frustrations elsewhere."
BUT, that would mean allowing them to have combat capable ships and weapons.
And that's stuff the Kriosians could use against the Klingons too if they felt like it.;)
so...
feds have escort with 5 tactical consoles and/or front weapons, kdf none
feds have cruiser with 5 eng consoles, kdf none
feds have sci ship with 5 sci console, kdf none
for sure feds have more ships than kdf and romulan... (feds have about 90 ships, kdf about 60) and a lot of ships are tier 4 or 5
feds have more costume options than kdf + romulan
but it's not enough... you want also aceton assimilator and orions... the last specificity of kdf faction, the only reasons to play kdf.
Do you want anything else? Qo'nos and the (few) decent kdf ships?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
so...
feds have escort with 5 tactical consoles and/or front weapons, kdf none
feds have cruiser with 5 eng consoles, kdf none
feds have sci ship with 5 sci console, kdf none
for sure feds have more ships than kdf and romulan... (feds have about 90 ships, kdf about 60) and a lot of ships are tier 4 or 5
feds have more costume options than kdf + romulan
but it's not enough... you want also aceton assimilator and orions... the last specificity of kdf faction, the only reasons to play kdf.
Do you want anything else? Qo'nos and the (few) decent kdf ships?
Slow down there warrior, slow down.
Please don't put out wrong information it makes us look silly and like we don't do our research properly.
The Fleet Negh'var has 5 ENG consoles and the Tac Borty has 5 TAC consoles.
And I don't play KDF for Orions or Acetons, I have neither.
I play KDF because I want to play KDF.
As for the rest I'm with you if not in tone.
Earlier this years someone wanted Fed Gorn because (and I'm not making this up!) Gorn in the KDF are like Jews in Iran.
Yeah where does it end? In theory we can extend the logic that everyone can join Starfleet to Gorn, Lethean and just about everyone else.
How about a Reman who escaped slavery? A Romulan who escaped Tal Shiar oppression before the RR was founded? Or a Gorn who's unhappy with the defeat by the Klingons?
That actually argues against Orions in Starfleet. Klingons actually should not be a playable species for the Federation; even Worf left, which sort of negates the "but Worf was in the Federation" argument. From a command perspective, it seems like a foolish decision to send a member of a species that values honor into a war against their own people. Take the Turkish proverb: No matter how far you have gone on a wrong road, turn back.
I was countering that the Klingon argument was weak, but I don't see KDF clamouring to have Klingons removed from star fleet as well it happened once.
Then, from the Memory Alpha article the OP referenced, there are biological issues and the political history to consider. While I could see male Orions on a Starfleet vessel, the pheromones females of the species release would wreak havoc on crew performance with Human and Denobulan crewmembers. Further, Orions have a long history of maintaining a false pretense of neutrality while raiding Federation space for slaves (Tellarites, Founder of the Federation) and dilithium (Coridans, member of the Federation). Giving a member of that same species command of a Federation warship seems... ill advised.
Ferengi, as a group raiding stealing and sabotaging the federation for their business interests. Allowed in as it is written off as a few loose cannons and not a racial/societal aspect.
As far as JJ Trek... that is canon. STO takes place in the original main universe, JJ Trek takes place in a divergent one. I suppose some genius in the JJverse could create a thalaron-induced super nova and drop some red matter into it just to bring a Federation Orion into this universe, but again the Memory Alpha article the OP referred to clearly states that "To date, no Orion Starfleet officers have been seen in the main universe." Even in the JJverse, however, long-term exposure to an Orion female seems like it could lead to workplace incidents. The Apocrypha section concerning Gaila mentions that "the attention Gaila receives from the Human technicians is visually and chemically unavoidable, yet being around her for any long period of time could be downright dangerous."
[EDIT] I also forgot to point out that JJ Trek takes place somewhere around 2258 for the Academy scenes, before the Orions had been caught in acts of piracy in both 2268 (TOS) and 2270 (TAS). At that point (even in our timeline) Starfleet hadn't sorted out what the Orions had been up to, despite warnings from the Tellarites around 2155. Now (circa 2409) that the Federation is more fully aware of their activities, it seems less likely to have an Orion as a crewmember, much less captain, of a Starfleet vessel.
As I mentioned before, if you really believe Orions belong in Starfleet as a playable species despite their history in STO, then really every species should be available in the C-Store as a cross-faction unlock. Maybe you could adjust your petition to reflect this?
Deltans create pheromones as well and take inhibitors so they can function around 'less advanced' species. So pheromones alone is not a limiter. And for the acts of aggression shown by the orions being too much for the Federation to forgive, but they don't mind surgically altered spies poisoning grain for starving colonies. Giving weapons to developing pre-industrial societies. Or as an example from pre-federation, tried to attack a star fleet vessel for having the unmitigated gall to save their lives.
Yet history shows they did make peace with the Klingons and put all that behind them as well. Same for the cardassians, and now for romulans.
I can get the kdf players not wanting to surrender another piece of their faction. If I had any say in the matter I would plan season 9 to be KDF centric and introduce new ships, costumes and areas in the empire. I would offer the purchasable race options to give one or two more to the kdf along with sharing the orions. Because if they are being left out of star fleet for previous actions but forgiving the rest, it really stinks in the federation.
I would prefer a lively discussion of a balanced approach to sharing things to the cross purpose issues of story versus game imbalance.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
but it's not enough... you want also aceton assimilator and orions... the last specificity of kdf faction, the only reasons to play kdf.
Ugh, sorry but, regardless of the topic...
It's a sad thing in STO if/when iconic/reason for going Klingon Empire are the Syndicate thugs and girls?
No, really. Orions are just hanging with KDF because it is profitable for them at this time. They aren't true Klingon force (and regardless wether to have playable Orions outside of KDF or not, they are not a real KDF, story wise).
It's a sad thing in STO if/when iconic/reason for going Klingon Empire are the Syndicate thugs and girls?
No, really. Orions are just hanging with KDF because it is profitable for them at this time. They aren't true Klingon force (and regardless wether to have playable Orions outside of KDF or not, they are not a real KDF, story wise).
Mine is a different point of view... each faction should have its specific feature or playing feds and kdf will be the same... same builds, same way to fight. But it's not enough... i also play kdf because i can fly different ships or play different species and because it's a nonsense pvp fed vs fed.
The truth is that as fed I have a lot of options, as kdf I have only few options and if we take what is specific no one will have reasons to play kdf insteaf of feds that have much more attention by devs.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Frankly, I don't consider races others than Humans/Vulcans/Andorians and few other "core" Fed species as a specific Federation feature, and no other races than Klingons as a specific KDF feature.
The whole two faction system shoehorned into universe that clearly has at least six factions is a sad joke. I can't take seriously Gorn and Orions as a hardcore KDF, nor pretend that Cryptic written motivation for them is to join more than apocrypha. :rolleyes:
Actually, KDF vs KDF or Fed vs Fed PvP makes a lot of sense as a war simulation.
its pretty sad, but i am pretty sure this will happen eventually.
most likely when sto is in decline, cryptic will begin to make more desperate overtures to coax more money from the bread-and-butter feddie client?le they have been building up over the years. funnily enough thats going to be at the same time they start putting years' old players requests on the table. things like account-bound reboxing of lockbox ships, a new pvp map, and that sort of thing.
its pretty sad, but i am pretty sure this will happen eventually.
most likely when sto is in decline, cryptic will begin to make more desperate overtures to coax more money from the bread-and-butter feddie client?le they have been building up over the years. funnily enough thats going to be at the same time they start putting years' old players requests on the table. things like account-bound reboxing of lockbox ships, a new pvp map, and that sort of thing.
Scary part is you may be right.
So here's hoping we debate such changes in vain for years to come.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I think Orions should remain a KDF-exclusive with the exception of the "enemy faction boff" you can get from the diplomatic doff missions.
That said, I think it's total BS that the FED don't have Deltans (with seduce/seductive traits) as playable/BOFF race. It helps in ground combat and Deltans with those traits would be useful to the FEDs.
In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
I think Orions should remain a KDF-exclusive with the exception of the "enemy faction boff" you can get from the diplomatic doff missions.
That said, I think it's total BS that the FED don't have Deltans (with seduce/seductive traits) as playable/BOFF race. It helps in ground combat and Deltans with those traits would be useful to the FEDs.
Indeed.
Also more variety of races, BOFF and playable, can help make the Federation feel as diverse as it should be.
In addition while certain races should (IMHO) remain faction-spcific other races with trait combinations similar or identical to existing ones on other sides would be balanced and interesting.
For example I can easily see the Nausicaan traits working on Corvallen mercs for the Romulans and Tellarite "stubborn" could work on the equally stubborn (and rather anachistic) Chalnoth.
Comments
To be fair to both sides, I don't think such a rule exists but at some point the "we want what they haveritis" has to have an end.
Not too long ago people clamored for Fed Gorn (I won't repeat the "logic" behind it here, I found it offensive).
Oh I don't know if they put some federation ships in lock boxes with Klingon skins they might be sellable as pirated vessels. But that is for a different thread.
My original post was for allowing more races in each of the factions. Interestingly when this is mentioned KDF followers are against sharing. I suppose the only real option left to cryptic is ignore races and faction uniforms and run with what they began with sphere of influence. One ship everyone has it. Purchasable ship that everyone gets. Less work for them.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
There are still a LOT of canon races that can be added into the game without encroaching onto the ones the other side(s) have.
Just some random names I can think of in a minute or so.
Federation:
Deltan (can easily run with the Orion traits)
Efrosian (guess which forum member would be dancing and singing)
Coridan
Ktarian
KDF:
Chalnoth (respect strength)
Augmented Klingons (you and I talked about them here)
RR:
Flaxian
Corvallen (mercs like Nausicaans)
KDF players are usually against sharing because:
-a lot of them like their factions (all of them) to be diverse
-the KDF faction has less stuff to begin with and it seems transfers mostly go into one direction only.
[nitpick]Actually, according to The Path to 2409 Bajor was admitted to the Federation in 2384 and gained full membership in 2393.[/nitpick]
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
how about we give feddies access to letheans in exchange for humans? that seems like a pretty good trade to me.
free jkname
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Doesnt matter if the feds accept gifts of not as the Orions never allied with the feds due to being pursecuted by them for being a criminal syndicate.
Klingons exist in StarFleet thanks to Worf setting the precident in TNG and the option was added to fedplay in the early days of the games creation due to the fanbase of Worf.
Racism? Kinda silly to elude to racism over a non-existant race, especially when the ingame backstory explains why said race has been disallowed.
Really?? Pulling race card?? How Democratic of you.
R.I.P
My character Tsin'xing
Probably because even in soft-canon, like the Gorkon novels, the Klingons only allow their subject races to be on their ships as servants and nothing beyond.
That's the reason the status of the Gorn as a self-runling people is such an important distinction.
And in case of the Kriosians the whole thing is very murky considering they were on the one hand supposed to be Klingon subjects and on the other they were supposedly an empire and at war with another race...how does that even work?
Also the colony world in "In the Mind's Eye" was called Krios while the one in "Perfect Mate" was called Krios Prime and their supposed status as Klingon subjects was never brought up.
On top of that while Memory Alpha claims the two are the same species the official startrek.com website explicitly states the two people should not be confused with each other.
Anyways, my copy of the 1999 Star Trek Encyclopedia says:
Krios: Class-M planet in the Kriosian system, controlled by the Klingon Empire. In 2367, Captain Pcard and Klingon Ambassador Kell met with Klingon governor Vagh at Krios, following a Kriosian revolt that the Klingons believed had been supported by the Federation. ("The Mind's Eye" [TNG])
The inhabitants of Krioshad been at war with the neighboring system, Valt Minor, for centuries. {stuff about the war} In 2368, a historic Ceremony of Reconciliation was held in hopes of ending the centuries of conflict. ("The Perfect Mate" [TNG])
Sooo... yeah. It treats them as the same race. It does seem odd that a subject race would be allowed to have their own private war fought with starships, but this is the Klingon Empire.
My character Tsin'xing
Of course thd Orions where not allied yo the Empire in the TV shows either.
They are allied in STO though.
R.I.P
I'm actually not talking about something that didn't happen on the show, but a connection that didn't make any sense on the show in the first place.:)
It makes even less sense that the Klingons would allow them to have ambassadors, have the Federation handle their disputes and then not even have this noteworthy in any way in the episode.
So even under such conditions it would only work assuming the Kriosians actually won their independence...and nobody found it worth mentioning in the episode either.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/kriosians
"Planet: Krios. The tall, slender humanoid members if this species share similarities in their skin pigments ? a dark-spotted, skin pattern along the hairline and down the neck and spine ? with the Valtese, not unlike some Trill hosts. No strangers to the outside galaxy, they educate Kamala about topics ranging from archaeology to Earth's Shakespeare and rich musical traditions, as well as about the culture of Valtese. This race should not be confused with another group of Kriosians, who were fighting for independence as a Klingon colony in 2367."
And just because it's the Klingon Empire means we must not use anything remotely resemble common sense, or how am I supposed to take that statement?
This makes even less sense under Klingon control than for example a Federation planet in a conflict with a neighbour since we've seen how harshly the Klingons control their subject population.
More race options are fine, and are a good thing, in and of itself...
But...
The UFP is a collection of MANY races, and the UFP has a ton more Federation races to draw from to diversify the options available for UFP players. Any new races that become available to UFP players, should be coming from the already existing UFP-aligned races.
Not taking from another faction and shoe-horning them in using some twisted logic people have been using to rationalize why they should be allowed to have what they want, no matter what.
-- Smoov
I can easily visualize the Klingons sitting back and laughing as a subject race fights a war with another race. They're not the kind of people to object to such things.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Actually yes, because this is how flimsy some of the counter arguements sound.
The Klingon empire can have Klingons in other factions because there was one example, even though it makes little sense and in the current timeline we are looking at (STO) that exception sided with the empire and resides on Qo'nos.
This is acceptable, but by gum you can't have orions?
It sounds that odd.
And while we are bringing up canon and the lack of it. Why is JJverse non-canon even though an event from that revisioning is part of the backstory in STO?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
No time to break this apart apologies.
I can understand not wanting to lose everything unique to the faction. The arguement is that the orions are the part that should not be unique while the klingons themselves should.
The original suggestion I made was to spread out races that by any stretch could fit to another faction. Someone had suggested Vulcans living with romulans in the republic, another had mentioned ferengi. The backlash about ferengi was so fierce you would think BoPs were taken from the KDF totally. And I recommended letting the kdf use betazoids. Not because I think they are particularly desirable for the empire but to spread some federation races out so it is not just taking from the KDF but allowing them more options as well.
Though thinking on it Vulcans as playable across factions sounds more likely. After all at least one vulcan felt joining the maquis was logical. Perhaps they feel that the federation putting on blinders about the undine is a mistake and therefore to ensure the future of the alpha quadrant that joining the empire is/was logical.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
That actually argues against Orions in Starfleet. Klingons actually should not be a playable species for the Federation; even Worf left, which sort of negates the "but Worf was in the Federation" argument. From a command perspective, it seems like a foolish decision to send a member of a species that values honor into a war against their own people. Take the Turkish proverb: No matter how far you have gone on a wrong road, turn back.
Then, from the Memory Alpha article the OP referenced, there are biological issues and the political history to consider. While I could see male Orions on a Starfleet vessel, the pheromones females of the species release would wreak havoc on crew performance with Human and Denobulan crewmembers. Further, Orions have a long history of maintaining a false pretense of neutrality while raiding Federation space for slaves (Tellarites, Founder of the Federation) and dilithium (Coridans, member of the Federation). Giving a member of that same species command of a Federation warship seems... ill advised.
As far as JJ Trek... that is canon. STO takes place in the original main universe, JJ Trek takes place in a divergent one. I suppose some genius in the JJverse could create a thalaron-induced super nova and drop some red matter into it just to bring a Federation Orion into this universe, but again the Memory Alpha article the OP referred to clearly states that "To date, no Orion Starfleet officers have been seen in the main universe." Even in the JJverse, however, long-term exposure to an Orion female seems like it could lead to workplace incidents. The Apocrypha section concerning Gaila mentions that "the attention Gaila receives from the Human technicians is visually and chemically unavoidable, yet being around her for any long period of time could be downright dangerous."
[EDIT] I also forgot to point out that JJ Trek takes place somewhere around 2258 for the Academy scenes, before the Orions had been caught in acts of piracy in both 2268 (TOS) and 2270 (TAS). At that point (even in our timeline) Starfleet hadn't sorted out what the Orions had been up to, despite warnings from the Tellarites around 2155. Now (circa 2409) that the Federation is more fully aware of their activities, it seems less likely to have an Orion as a crewmember, much less captain, of a Starfleet vessel.
As I mentioned before, if you really believe Orions belong in Starfleet as a playable species despite their history in STO, then really every species should be available in the C-Store as a cross-faction unlock. Maybe you could adjust your petition to reflect this?
There's an important piece of stuff a lot of people appearently not know about:
there was a comic mini-series called "Countdown" which takes place in the Prime Universe and ends with the Narada and Spock's ship MIA in a certain black hole.
Those events, which involve stuff like Romulus going kaboom, Red Matter, the Vault etc are part of STO's backstory.
Everything that happens "after" that (= after the Narada exits that black hole) is not canon because that's from another universe.
It's even weirder when you know that one of the co-authors of the first episode also co-wrote the second.
I mentally write this off as another case of trilithium.:)
A bowl of gagh, a barrel of bloodwine and a good look from the sidelines.
I thought about that too and it makes sense at first glance.
"Let them vent their frustrations elsewhere."
BUT, that would mean allowing them to have combat capable ships and weapons.
And that's stuff the Kriosians could use against the Klingons too if they felt like it.;)
feds have escort with 5 tactical consoles and/or front weapons, kdf none
feds have cruiser with 5 eng consoles, kdf none
feds have sci ship with 5 sci console, kdf none
for sure feds have more ships than kdf and romulan... (feds have about 90 ships, kdf about 60) and a lot of ships are tier 4 or 5
feds have more costume options than kdf + romulan
but it's not enough... you want also aceton assimilator and orions... the last specificity of kdf faction, the only reasons to play kdf.
Do you want anything else? Qo'nos and the (few) decent kdf ships?
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Slow down there warrior, slow down.
Please don't put out wrong information it makes us look silly and like we don't do our research properly.
The Fleet Negh'var has 5 ENG consoles and the Tac Borty has 5 TAC consoles.
And I don't play KDF for Orions or Acetons, I have neither.
I play KDF because I want to play KDF.
As for the rest I'm with you if not in tone.
Earlier this years someone wanted Fed Gorn because (and I'm not making this up!) Gorn in the KDF are like Jews in Iran.
Yeah where does it end? In theory we can extend the logic that everyone can join Starfleet to Gorn, Lethean and just about everyone else.
How about a Reman who escaped slavery? A Romulan who escaped Tal Shiar oppression before the RR was founded? Or a Gorn who's unhappy with the defeat by the Klingons?
I was countering that the Klingon argument was weak, but I don't see KDF clamouring to have Klingons removed from star fleet as well it happened once.
Ferengi, as a group raiding stealing and sabotaging the federation for their business interests. Allowed in as it is written off as a few loose cannons and not a racial/societal aspect.
Deltans create pheromones as well and take inhibitors so they can function around 'less advanced' species. So pheromones alone is not a limiter. And for the acts of aggression shown by the orions being too much for the Federation to forgive, but they don't mind surgically altered spies poisoning grain for starving colonies. Giving weapons to developing pre-industrial societies. Or as an example from pre-federation, tried to attack a star fleet vessel for having the unmitigated gall to save their lives.
Yet history shows they did make peace with the Klingons and put all that behind them as well. Same for the cardassians, and now for romulans.
I can get the kdf players not wanting to surrender another piece of their faction. If I had any say in the matter I would plan season 9 to be KDF centric and introduce new ships, costumes and areas in the empire. I would offer the purchasable race options to give one or two more to the kdf along with sharing the orions. Because if they are being left out of star fleet for previous actions but forgiving the rest, it really stinks in the federation.
I would prefer a lively discussion of a balanced approach to sharing things to the cross purpose issues of story versus game imbalance.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Ugh, sorry but, regardless of the topic...
It's a sad thing in STO if/when iconic/reason for going Klingon Empire are the Syndicate thugs and girls?
No, really. Orions are just hanging with KDF because it is profitable for them at this time. They aren't true Klingon force (and regardless wether to have playable Orions outside of KDF or not, they are not a real KDF, story wise).
Mine is a different point of view... each faction should have its specific feature or playing feds and kdf will be the same... same builds, same way to fight. But it's not enough... i also play kdf because i can fly different ships or play different species and because it's a nonsense pvp fed vs fed.
The truth is that as fed I have a lot of options, as kdf I have only few options and if we take what is specific no one will have reasons to play kdf insteaf of feds that have much more attention by devs.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
The whole two faction system shoehorned into universe that clearly has at least six factions is a sad joke. I can't take seriously Gorn and Orions as a hardcore KDF, nor pretend that Cryptic written motivation for them is to join more than apocrypha. :rolleyes:
Actually, KDF vs KDF or Fed vs Fed PvP makes a lot of sense as a war simulation.
most likely when sto is in decline, cryptic will begin to make more desperate overtures to coax more money from the bread-and-butter feddie client?le they have been building up over the years. funnily enough thats going to be at the same time they start putting years' old players requests on the table. things like account-bound reboxing of lockbox ships, a new pvp map, and that sort of thing.
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Scary part is you may be right.
So here's hoping we debate such changes in vain for years to come.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
That said, I think it's total BS that the FED don't have Deltans (with seduce/seductive traits) as playable/BOFF race. It helps in ground combat and Deltans with those traits would be useful to the FEDs.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Indeed.
Also more variety of races, BOFF and playable, can help make the Federation feel as diverse as it should be.
In addition while certain races should (IMHO) remain faction-spcific other races with trait combinations similar or identical to existing ones on other sides would be balanced and interesting.
For example I can easily see the Nausicaan traits working on Corvallen mercs for the Romulans and Tellarite "stubborn" could work on the equally stubborn (and rather anachistic) Chalnoth.