Actually as you have stated, your opinions are 'facts'. You said 10 pages or so back that you were 'done with this thread' yet you feel the need to continue to post. I have stated my counterpoint you just failed to comprehend it and vigorously ignored what I had to say and at times replaced it with your own 'opinion'. As others have stated, your responses or 'opinions' are either logically at fault or pure speculation yet you continue to try to 'tell people how it is' and cram it down everyone's throat. Your inability to know when to stop posting is phenomenal and actually quite disturbing.
Incorrect, I asked you to pose a valid counterpoint to MY opinion. Not the opinions of other people you agree with. You have not told me your perspective that you claim is right over my stated fact about the LTS and the fact that nobody has been shafted by it since those who were already subscribed have lost nothing and that it's a great way to add incentive for other people to buy one. That's what my original post was all about, and that I was tired of seeing the posts both in and out of this thread regarding that somehow people are being screwed over who spent 1000 days subscribed to this game. They have not lost anything because hey, up until recently there wasn't an established reward for 1000 days. My opinion is that considering how nightmarish it is, that all LTS should all get the same benefits regardless of time spent subscribed because a LTS shows a level of dedication that someone is willing to have by dropping a large sum of money all at once, Regardless if it was done on day one or just recently now that the game is F2P with no financial obligation attached to it anymore.
Now mister "I've already stated my counterpoint", what exactly is your counterargument to that established fact? Oh and don't use someone's argument I want to hear from you how you think that this statement is wrong when everything I have said just now is correct? Take your time, I look forward to seeing your logic behind how you think my opinion is wrong about the base facts concerning this deal.
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Now I'm not going to continue to go 'round and 'round with you about this, but since you ask and couldn't read the thread for yourself, here you go...
And I discredited your direct response to me because you did not read what I had said. In fact you said and interpreted quite the opposite of what I said. so once gain, either post your valid counterargument to my opinion that this change is something that has not shafted anyone. You feel that 1000 days should reflect 1000 days, great, when the game wasn't F2P I would have agreed with you. It's not now, so once again how do you justify your argument with a no obligation F2P format? I am still waiting for you. Take your time here friend. I look forward to deconstructing your argument piece by piece. Or, you can admit that you misrepresented what I said from the first moment and engage in this discussion like you claim to want to.
And I discredited your direct response to me because you did not read what I had said. In fact you said and interpreted quite the opposite of what I said. so once gain, either post your valid counterargument to my opinion that this change is something that has not shafted anyone. You feel that 1000 days should reflect 1000 days, great, when the game wasn't F2P I would have agreed with you. It's not now, so once again how do you justify your argument with a no obligation F2P format? I am still waiting for you. Take your time here friend. I look forward to deconstructing your argument piece by piece. Or, you can admit that you misrepresented what I said from the first moment and engage in this discussion like you claim to want to.
What on earth are you talking about? Like I said I have zero intention of indulging you and your self-centered and self-serving view of yourself. You got your answer, whether you like it or not (it was even spoon-fed to you). I swear the people you meet on the internet. :eek:
What on earth are you talking about? Like I said I have zero intention of indulging you and your self-centered and self-serving view of yourself. You got your answer, whether you like it or not (it was even spoon-fed to you). I swear the people you meet on the internet. :eek:
So, your overall lack of ability to form a coherent and concise argument when I have more than given you the same original point more than once with the same supporting facts that are in regards to this particular incentive means that you are either unable to give a valid counterargument or you are simply intimidated by the fact that your "argument" could be proven wrong. Or perhaps there is a different underlying reason for why you won't legitimately post a valid counterpoint to my opinion based on the facts that surround this program surrounding the LTS. That's fine, it's okay to admit that you have nothing to go on to provide as an argument, I can appreciate that, in fact you're not alone many people have to endure that. Here's the cold hard facts Jack, This program offers a new incentive for LTS as I have now stated more times than I care to count. Also another fact about this, is that nobody has lost out on anything if they are a LTS. Now, frankly I would prefer to see this reward system gone along with the LTS considering that the game is wholly F2P which btw bud, I mentioned that to you in one of my direct responses to your statement which for whatever reason you have magically managed to overlook or disregard for whatever reasons because this system will create nothing but problems in the future since it is already a no obligation game. Making these "rewards" purchasable in game would be a far better solution as far as I am concerned.
However, this particular program while questionable for the longevity of this game does make sense from a business standpoint for hopes of generating more revenue. I have now stated this more than enough for you to get it. If you don't get this point, then the problem lies with you, not me. Nobody said you had to agree with it. All I said were the obvious facts surrounding the situation I made my opinion about in the first place. Which if you were going to engage in an actual discussion you would have acknowledged that.
So, your overall lack of ability to form a coherent and concise argument when I have more than given you the same original point more than once with the same supporting facts that are in regards to this particular incentive means that you are either unable to give a valid counterargument or you are simply intimidated by the fact that your "argument" could be proven wrong. Or perhaps there is a different underlying reason for why you won't legitimately post a valid counterpoint to my opinion based on the facts that surround this program surrounding the LTS. That's fine, it's okay to admit that you have nothing to go on to provide as an argument, I can appreciate that, in fact you're not alone many people have to endure that. Here's the cold hard facts Jack, This program offers a new incentive for LTS as I have now stated more times than I care to count. Also another fact about this, is that nobody has lost out on anything if they are a LTS. Now, frankly I would prefer to see this reward system gone along with the LTS considering that the game is wholly F2P which btw bud, I mentioned that to you in one of my direct responses to your statement which for whatever reason you have magically managed to overlook or disregard for whatever reasons because this system will create nothing but problems in the future since it is already a no obligation game. Making these "rewards" purchasable in game would be a far better solution as far as I am concerned.
However, this particular program while questionable for the longevity of this game does make sense from a business standpoint for hopes of generating more revenue. I have now stated this more than enough for you to get it. If you don't get this point, then the problem lies with you, not me. Nobody said you had to agree with it. All I said were the obvious facts surrounding the situation I made my opinion about in the first place. Which if you were going to engage in an actual discussion you would have acknowledged that.
It's okay, I understand your frustration. Enjoy your game.
I don't think you understand anything about me friend. What I don't understand however is your persistence in the matter. What are you trying to prove. I mean everything was spelled out for you. Sorry!
I don't think you understand anything about me friend. What I don't understand however is your persistence in the matter. I mean I spelled it out for you. Sorry.
And yet you disregarded the counter arguments without even giving a fact to base it off of, it must be nice to think whatever you want and have it actually be true for you. It's okay, I understand, enjoy your game.
And yet you disregarded the counter arguments without even giving a fact to base it off of, it must be nice to think whatever you want and have it actually be true for you. It's okay, I understand, enjoy your game.
You're a bot aren't you... I'm not here to state facts. I am here for 'forum' and to offer my opinion. You are the one who thinks their opinion is fact.
with all this talk about their actions being a good business decision, i feel that this statement could not be further from the truth. the only benefit that i can see from this is a quick infusion of capital from the lts subscription sales. what they choose to do with this increase, is a thread all of its own.
now as for why their actions are a bad business decision:
1. is an absolute and utter insult to all gold level subscribers. the people who pay per month, every 3 months or every 6 months are left in the cold by this decision. most of them are re-evaluating their decision to support this game per month and will ultimately result in them either going f2p or lifetime. either way, this detracts from income that could be earned by PWE over time.
2. their actions do nothing to increase loyal customers. loyal customers are those who support this game either through recurring subscriptions or micro-transactions. with all this money blown on the lifetime for some, it would be harder for them to justify spending more money in the immediate future for micro-transactions. these lifers also reap the benefits of never having to pay for character respecs, extra bridge officer slots, inventories and so on. it takes away from revenue that could have been earned from all these various micro transactions.
3. building customer relationships: in the current marketing environment, many successful companies rely on what is called relationship marketing. in a short sense, relationship marketing occurs when a company builds a positive relationship with their customers. this in turn creates customer loyalty and will increase the chances of the customer repeating their business with the company. the decision by PWE outraged many and thus soured the business relationship with those customers. for those who were not outraged, they did nothing to ensure that these customers would remain loyal to PWE after their large one-time transaction. sure, they may be locked in for "life" but it does not mean that they will continue to do business with this company.
Overall, in my opinion, I think PWE sacrificed long term security for a short term gain. I do not think that this was a great business decision. There was too much sacrificed and not enough gained.
PWE should focus on mending relationships with players to entice them to be and remain loyal customers. they need to do some serious advertising to bring in new players. they need to listen to all of their customers and make improvements across the board. invest some money into this game and actually build it out right. if things are actually done right, this game has the potential to be the star it deserves to be instead of the cash cow it is now waiting to be slaughtered.
You're a bot aren't you... I'm not here to state facts. I am here for 'forum' and to offer my opinion. You are the one who thinks their opinion is fact.
hee hee. when i read that my mind immediately went to this: link
not to say that the op referenced is doing that. he makes a valid assertion of his opinion. it's just with all the posts being thrown around, the point in his message becomes skewed.
not to say that the op referenced is doing that. he makes a valid assertion of his opinion. it's just with all the posts being thrown around, the point in his message becomes skewed.
It is still a much needed laugh after a very long evening.
with all this talk about their actions being a good business decision, i feel that this statement could not be further from the truth. the only benefit that i can see from this is a quick infusion of capital from the lts subscription sales. what they choose to do with this increase, is a thread all of its own.
now as for why their actions are a bad business decision:
1. is an absolute and utter insult to all gold level subscribers. the people who pay per month, every 3 months or every 6 months are left in the cold by this decision. most of them are re-evaluating their decision to support this game per month and will ultimately result in them either going f2p or lifetime. either way, this detracts from income that could be earned by PWE over time.
That is one potential outcome and it is a valid point. One that I do not disagree with, however many times over the last several months dating back quite a while now, there has been a consistently growing worry about the overall integrity and productivity of this game up to and including the PvP dynamic. However, one of the things to bear in mind about that is that in order to find a new healthy medium immediate short term gains to allow a small buffer of time to consolidate and create a new productive environment will happen from time to time. Which is probably what caused PWE to do this in the first place, I wouldn't know because I don't work for them. But I can theorize that as one potential possibility.
2. their actions do nothing to increase loyal customers. loyal customers are those who support this game either through recurring subscriptions or micro-transactions. with all this money blown on the lifetime for some, it would be harder for them to spend more money in the immediate future for micro-transactions. these lifers also reap the benefits of never having to pay for character respecs, extra bridge officer slots, inventories and so on. it takes away from revenue that could have been earned from all these various micro transactions.
While you are correct that it does nothing for current loyal subscribers/customers, that doesn't mean however that the people who are able to spend money on a lifetime subscription wouldn't be able to add additional funds to the game. Some people might not be able to and some people might be able to. With that said, there is no credible statement saying that is a universal truth. for people like me who respec quite often to try and theory craft different build I will spend more on respec token until I find something I am happy with. So again that is not a universal truth for everyone.
3. building customer relationships: in the current marketing environment, many successful companies rely on what is called relationship marketing. in a short sense, relationship marketing occurs when a company builds a positive relationship with their customers. this in turn creates customer loyalty and will increase the chances of the customer repeating their business with the company. the decision by PWE outraged many and thus soured the business relationship with those customers. for those who were not outraged, they did nothing to ensure that these customers would remain loyal to PWE after their large one-time transaction. sure, they may be locked in for "life" but it does not mean that they will continue to do business with this company.
And you are correct in this assessment that there is nothing to hold these players to the game after making the transaction. But I ask you from a personal standpoint, how many people would willingly blow a large sum of money on something if there would be any doubt that they would stop playing the game?
Overall, in my opinion, I think PWE sacrificed long term security for a short term gain. I do not think that this was a great business decision. There was too much sacrificed and not enough gained.
I understand what you mean in this comment but I want you to understand that "technically" Nothing has been sacrificed "technically" All that has been done is given the additional incentive to purchase a LTS. There is no guarantee that this will in fact generate any further revenue for them, it does however make the LTS package more appealing to purchase since the original incentives for the F2P platform were not worth the 299.00 U.S.D. investment.
PWE should focus on mending relationships with players to entice them to be and remain loyal customers. they need to do some serious advertising to bring in new players. they need to listen to all of their customers and make improvements across the board. invest some money into this game and actually build it out right. if things are actually done right, this game has the potential to be the star it deserves to be instead of the cash cow it is now waiting to be slaughtered.
And this is something I do not disagree with, the real problem is that is a major mountain to surpass due to everything that was put in to "appease" and "offset" all the problems that still exist in this game. I agree that making it a cash cow was not a right decision.
Well thought out and stated, overall I do not disagree with you on any particular point, I have a different opinion regarding the things but then again that's how feedback is meant to be given. Different perspectives give a broader range of things to look at as a whole. With that said, I'm not saying I agree with what has been done with this particular deal, I am also however not upset by it because I do understand the business reasoning behind it.
Of course, regardless of all of that, making this game truly free to play with all perks purchasable through the cash store would actually solve a lot of these problems from surfacing in the future. Which I would love to see happen. They could even manage to give all the LTS if they did away with the LTS the money refunded back in the form of cash shop currency, and then you could use that to purchase the said perks you would want from the old reward system. Granted that wouldn't happen because it would cause just as much of an uproar as this has.
You're a bot aren't you... I'm not here to state facts. I am here for 'forum' and to offer my opinion. You are the one who thinks their opinion is fact.
Yes we know, you would rather use a personal opinion to state your argument as opposed to an informed opinion using facts surrounding what this offer actually does for new LTS. We get that you don't know how to make an informed opinion based on fact. You don't need to beat a dead horse about that to me. I figured that out about you more than 2 hours ago. So, I'm going to disregard your further posts since there is nothing to be gained in terms of insightful thought out informed opinions from you. Enjoy your game Redshirt.
Yes we know, you would rather use a personal opinion to state your argument as opposed to an informed opinion using facts surrounding what this offer actually does for new LTS. We get that you don't know how to make an informed opinion based on fact. You don't need to beat a dead horse about that to me. I figured that out about you more than 2 hours ago. So, I'm going to disregard your further posts since there is nothing to be gained in terms of insightful thought out informed opinions from you. Enjoy your game Redshirt.
Insults and attacks will get you nowhere. Ironic you accused me earlier of attacking you, which I didn't, and now here we are...
I spoon-fed my opinions (which were based on facts) to you yet you choose to ignore them or you do not comprehend them. I don't think you are 'figuring out' much. The only one beating a dead horse here is you.
That is one potential outcome and it is a valid point. One that I do not disagree with, however many times over the last several months dating back quite a while now, there has been a consistently growing worry about the overall integrity and productivity of this game up to and including the PvP dynamic. However, one of the things to bear in mind about that is that in order to find a new healthy medium immediate short term gains to allow a small buffer of time to consolidate and create a new productive environment will happen from time to time. Which is probably what caused PWE to do this in the first place, I wouldn't know because I don't work for them. But I can theorize that as one potential possibility.
the integrity and productivity of this game has been questioned since before it's existence. the prevalent disparity between fed content and klingon content is more than indicative of that. as for productivity itself, these seasons that they have released are seriously lacking in content for the time that we wait. another foul decision they made was to revamp the leveling system. they should have left it the way it was. the way people level is too fast for the game. people do 1 mission and they increase a grade. it's no wonder people are crying for more content. they created a system where people bypass most of the existing content and then twiddle their thumbs with maxed out toons crying for more. all those individual sector space exploration missions, all the nebulas and stuff that could be explored. no one does that stuff anymore, because they don't have to. back in the day, we had to grind these areas to make rank. slow the system down. let people enjoy the ranks and their ships. what's the point of a t1, 2 or 3 ship if you spend a couple hours of gameplay in it?
As for the buffer of time they would need to play catch up, use my suggestion above and work on the game concurrently. They focus too much on one thing and rush it through production. They barely even test their own content, leaving users to test it for them in redshirt and tribble. That within itself is disgusting. Content is supposed to be new and surprising. Giving people a sneak peek to test, debug and explore the new content isn't fair for any consumer. You talk about making the field even and level playing fields right? The users that do this gain a significant advantage over people who don't. They learn the system in tribble and exploit it on holodeck. People raiding the exchange for things they need for the next big thing or hoarding this and hoarding that. It creates an economic disparity that is easily avoidable. All players should be surprised with meaningful, new and bug free content at the same time. Especially when we wait a whole year for a mere handful of episodes.
As for the integrity of the game itself, so many aspects of it are rushed into the mainstream. Incomplete systems that are pushed out and subsequently patched or not (i.e. the cloaking "feature that is working as intended" bug or the skills and powers that are neglected or nerfed), patches that break otherwise working features of the game and so on. Things are done and pushed out without any quality control standards and we are the ones suffering for it. People would experience game breaking bugs because of this. Today, it very rarely reaches critical mass, because you can generally skip missions and such. Before, you were SOL until the fix came.
It's like a chef that is cooking blind and sending out dishes to patrons without tasting it. Then re-evaluating when the dish gets sent back while the patrons wait hungrily. The kicker is that the restaurant still expects to be paid for the meal at the end of the day. Oh, imagine the audacity... lol. we don't have to. we live it. a little "food" for thought, no?
the integrity and productivity of this game has been questioned since before it's existence. the prevalent disparity between fed content and klingon content is more than indicative of that. as for productivity itself, these seasons that they have released are seriously lacking in content for the time that we wait. another foul decision they made was to revamp the leveling system. they should have left it the way it was. the way people level is too fast for the game. people do 1 mission and they increase a grade. it's no wonder people are crying for more content. they created a system where people bypass most of the existing content and then twiddle their thumbs with maxed out toons crying for more. all those individual sector space exploration missions, all the nebulas and stuff that could be explored. no one does that stuff anymore, because they don't have to. back in the day, we had to grind these areas to make rank. slow the system down. let people enjoy the ranks and their ships. what's the point of a t1, 2 or 3 ship if you spend a couple hours of gameplay in it?
As for the buffer of time they would need to play catch up, use my suggestion above and work on the game concurrently. They focus too much on one thing and rush it through production. They barely even test their own content, leaving users to test it for them in redshirt and tribble. That within itself is disgusting. Content is supposed to be new and surprising. Giving people a sneak peek to test, debug and explore the new content isn't fair for any consumer. You talk about making the field even and level playing fields right? The users that do this gain a significant advantage over people who don't. They learn the system in tribble and exploit it on holodeck. People raiding the exchange for things they need for the next big thing or hoarding this and hoarding that. It creates an economic disparity that is easily avoidable. All players should be surprised with meaningful, new and bug free content at the same time. Especially when we wait a whole year for a mere handful of episodes.
As for the integrity of the game itself, so many aspects of it are rushed into the mainstream. Incomplete systems that are pushed out and subsequently patched or not (i.e. the cloaking "feature that is working as intended" bug or the skills and powers that are neglected or nerfed), patches that break otherwise working features of the game and so on. Things are done and pushed out without any quality control standards and we are the ones suffering for it. People would experience game breaking bugs because of this. Today, it very rarely reaches critical mass, because you can generally skip missions and such. Before, you were SOL until the fix came.
It's like a chef that is cooking blind and sending out dishes to patrons without tasting it. Then re-evaluating when the dish gets sent back while the patrons wait hungrily. The kicker is that the restaurant still expects to be paid for the meal at the end of the day. Oh, imagine the audacity... lol. we don't have to. we live it. a little "food" for thought, no?
Very good read.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] EXPLORE.
Dec '07 Account I EARNED 1000 days...I didn't BUY it! New LTS=Death to Vet.System: 10/10/12 Never Forget Something should be done for those who cared enough to have a 1000+ day sub.
the integrity and productivity of this game has been questioned since before it's existence. the prevalent disparity between fed content and klingon content is more than indicative of that. as for productivity itself, these seasons that they have released are seriously lacking in content for the time that we wait. another foul decision they made was to revamp the leveling system. they should have left it the way it was. the way people level is too fast for the game. people do 1 mission and they increase a grade. it's no wonder people are crying for more content. they created a system where people bypass most of the existing content and then twiddle their thumbs with maxed out toons crying for more. all those individual sector space exploration missions, all the nebulas and stuff that could be explored. no one does that stuff anymore, because they don't have to. back in the day, we had to grind these areas to make rank. slow the system down. let people enjoy the ranks and their ships. what's the point of a t1, 2 or 3 ship if you spend a couple hours of gameplay in it?
As for the buffer of time they would need to play catch up, use my suggestion above and work on the game concurrently. They focus too much on one thing and rush it through production. They barely even test their own content, leaving users to test it for them in redshirt and tribble. That within itself is disgusting. Content is supposed to be new and surprising. Giving people a sneak peek to test, debug and explore the new content isn't fair for any consumer. You talk about making the field even and level playing fields right? The users that do this gain a significant advantage over people who don't. They learn the system in tribble and exploit it on holodeck. People raiding the exchange for things they need for the next big thing or hoarding this and hoarding that. It creates an economic disparity that is easily avoidable. All players should be surprised with meaningful, new and bug free content at the same time. Especially when we wait a whole year for a mere handful of episodes.
As for the integrity of the game itself, so many aspects of it are rushed into the mainstream. Incomplete systems that are pushed out and subsequently patched or not (i.e. the cloaking "feature that is working as intended" bug or the skills and powers that are neglected or nerfed), patches that break otherwise working features of the game and so on. Things are done and pushed out without any quality control standards and we are the ones suffering for it. People would experience game breaking bugs because of this. Today, it very rarely reaches critical mass, because you can generally skip missions and such. Before, you were SOL until the fix came.
It's like a chef that is cooking blind and sending out dishes to patrons without tasting it. Then re-evaluating when the dish gets sent back while the patrons wait hungrily. The kicker is that the restaurant still expects to be paid for the meal at the end of the day. Oh, imagine the audacity... lol. we don't have to. we live it. a little "food" for thought, no?
I completely agree with that, it is true and it is something that has been a source of annoyance to me as well. Unfortunately I expected to see this for at least a year or more when I found that PWE would be getting direct invested control over STO from Atari which frankly between the two we got the lesser of two evils. But because of that, this game is nowhere near what PWE likes to have as a set up in their games and frankly because of the nature of this game when it was created it more than likely never will be. So I am under the impression that the solution is to leave what was in place and build the new formula over the existing formula which is going to cause more problems than solve. We have already on more than one occasion seen the implications and the effects of those particular formulas implemented up to and including of course the STF queing system while yes made it easier to find groups. Also made it a nightmare to do them for many people. The constant changing and buffing/nerfing of career abilities or BOFF abilities, the DOFF system all of these things in their own right was not a bad thing but they were not implemented back when the game really needed it to happen. Part of the problem is that we as a player base have adapted to the changes and then when PWE came along everything got turned on it's head and we are all playing catch up trying to establish what is going to be the new status quo for the majority of the game. This game is still in hardcore transition and it probably still will be for a very long time before there becomes an established constant. Honestly, it's not something I look forward to having to endure but I am a devoted fan of this game so I will stick it out regardless of how ridiculous it gets in the transitional stage. I just hope it won't stall in the transition which we have all seen has happened more than once already. Sadly this game was placed in bad hands investment wise to begin with and then it only got worse over time due to massive inaction for a very long time. Now we have more action than we need because various core elements have been thrown so far out of whack in comparison to where it was it's hard to get bearings on what the general plan will be for the future, if it even comes.
While you are correct that it does nothing for current loyal subscribers/customers, that doesn't mean however that the people who are able to spend money on a lifetime subscription wouldn't be able to add additional funds to the game. Some people might not be able to and some people might be able to. With that said, there is no credible statement saying that is a universal truth. for people like me who respec quite often to try and theory craft different build I will spend more on respec token until I find something I am happy with. So again that is not a universal truth for everyone.
- I did make a correction to state that it was harder to justify spending more money after making a large transaction such as the purchase of a LTS. So although my initial claim was an invalid assertion, the correction is not.
And you are correct in this assessment that there is nothing to hold these players to the game after making the transaction. But I ask you from a personal standpoint, how many people would willingly blow a large sum of money on something if there would be any doubt that they would stop playing the game?
- from my personal standpoint, people make all sorts of stupid decisions when purchasing things all the time. it's called impulse buying and often leads to buyer's remorse. happy now because they are flying around in a pretty ship. sad later when they realize there's no new content to use said ship in.
I understand what you mean in this comment but I want you to understand that "technically" Nothing has been sacrificed "technically" All that has been done is given the additional incentive to purchase a LTS. There is no guarantee that this will in fact generate any further revenue for them, it does however make the LTS package more appealing to purchase since the original incentives for the F2P platform were not worth the 299.00 U.S.D. investment.
- the sacrifice itself is intangible, but if you re-read the assertion above, PWE is giving up long term revenue for the short term financial gain. those who feel they have been wronged, whether valid or not, have had their experience negatively affected, which in turn will affect their buying behavior. either way, long term > short term, especially since there isn't any real meaningful content for people to stick around for. the new reputation system will make people re-grind the stfs that many people already hate or loathe. it will appease some people, but overall not make much of a difference. instead of a chance grind, this is a guaranteed grind. as for the new stf. sure it'll be fun for a while. then it will become tedious and boring and even loathed. especially if it's "hard" for some people like IGE and CSE is for a lot. Others like me will snicker and laugh as I punch through it with my mk xii gear.
And this is something I do not disagree with, the real problem is that is a major mountain to surpass due to everything that was put in to "appease" and "offset" all the problems that still exist in this game. I agree that making it a cash cow was not a right decision.
- major mountain, yes. but baby steps. give us back our engineering reports. have a better dev presence both in game and in the forums. we're flying around in the dark, hoping for the best. don't make promises and beat around the bush. just get stuff done. give our feedback some feedback. don't just say "hmm. interesting idea, i'll forward it to whatever department" make things happen. i don't mind waiting. just make sure whatever i'm waiting for is worth it and isn't broken. you can start with fixing your company and giving a damn about this game and it's players.
Again, accurate counterpoints that have tangible facts to back them up. And they are also facts that I know about and do not actually disagree with, however I would like to point out that in many cases these are general extremes that do happen yes, but are not "usually" the main response. I only say that from personal experience spanning multiple games for 20 years now so yes, there is validity to them from personal experience but that makes it more a personal opinion than an informed one. I would note however, that despite the massive debacle that was SWG during 2004 that game did manage to live a full 10 years despite all of the same type of things we experience in terms of poor quality and overall lack of content and such. So even though there are valid points, we cannot say for certain that either path is a sure bet as to what would happen. Which is of course why I offer the opposite side of the overall opinion considering what other games have demonstrated, not just this one.
Again, accurate counterpoints that have tangible facts to back them up. And they are also facts that I know about and do not actually disagree with, however I would like to point out that in many cases these are general extremes that do happen yes, but are not "usually" the main response. I only say that from personal experience spanning multiple games for 20 years now so yes, there is validity to them from personal experience but that makes it more a personal opinion than an informed one. I would note however, that despite the massive debacle that was SWG during 2004 that game did manage to live a full 10 years despite all of the same type of things we experience in terms of poor quality and overall lack of content and such. So even though there are valid points, we cannot say for certain that either path is a sure bet as to what would happen. Which is of course why I offer the opposite side of the overall opinion considering what other games have demonstrated, not just this one.
I think that they should do a better job communicating with the players. We are the ones who will make this boat sink or swim. The outrage expressed on the forums could have been severely mitigated. It all comes back to the lack of communication between community and the game company. There is so much in this game that has to be accounted for. The devs themselves can not be responsible for all of it and due to the lack of direct communication channels, we're left with too large of an area to cover and not enough man power to do anything about it. They would be doing themselves a favor by reaching out to the community and actively participating in it. There are die hard trekkies who hold a plethora of information that can be used to help research and develop new ideas that are canon to the game itself, instead of having the devs come up with the ideas, research it themselves and then try to implement it. Cut those corners. Not the ones you have been cutting recently. The forums are a fantastic place for feedback. Unfortunately, only a percentage of the actual in-game population read and participate in the forums. You can bounce ideas off of us. We can bounce ideas off of you. You can take these ideas to your design meetings and determine which ones are feasible and which ones simply can not be done. All in all, we, the players are an untapped resource for them to exploit properly. We're not just financial assets waiting to be sucked dry. We're happy to give you money, but only if you really deserve it.
P.S. have more people with direct access to the devs in game. i remember when people used to go crazy over the little pink dev chats in ESD. it's little things like that in which could be changed or implemented quickly and cheaply that would assure us that this game is heading in the right direction. this shoot now, ask questions later approach only results in dead customers.
One thing Cryptic fans always use as a selling point of how great the game is, is the great communication cryptic has with its player base. I have always thought this was a rubbish statement and this new act just solidifys my opinion.
I have to ask, what exactly is Brandon's job? Isn't he the community manager? It seems all he does is link stuff and say cheers.
I never liked the previous ones, but at least they posted especially in hot potato threads.
They generally don't care anymore.
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Comments
Incorrect, I asked you to pose a valid counterpoint to MY opinion. Not the opinions of other people you agree with. You have not told me your perspective that you claim is right over my stated fact about the LTS and the fact that nobody has been shafted by it since those who were already subscribed have lost nothing and that it's a great way to add incentive for other people to buy one. That's what my original post was all about, and that I was tired of seeing the posts both in and out of this thread regarding that somehow people are being screwed over who spent 1000 days subscribed to this game. They have not lost anything because hey, up until recently there wasn't an established reward for 1000 days. My opinion is that considering how nightmarish it is, that all LTS should all get the same benefits regardless of time spent subscribed because a LTS shows a level of dedication that someone is willing to have by dropping a large sum of money all at once, Regardless if it was done on day one or just recently now that the game is F2P with no financial obligation attached to it anymore.
Now mister "I've already stated my counterpoint", what exactly is your counterargument to that established fact? Oh and don't use someone's argument I want to hear from you how you think that this statement is wrong when everything I have said just now is correct? Take your time, I look forward to seeing your logic behind how you think my opinion is wrong about the base facts concerning this deal.
As I already stated, I have already offered my points. If you want to know them, click back a few pages. Or here, I will do the legwork for you:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6027171&postcount=330
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6027631&postcount=332
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6027901&postcount=336
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6050031&postcount=468
Now I'm not going to continue to go 'round and 'round with you about this, but since you ask and couldn't read the thread for yourself, here you go...
Dude or Dudette...
Just stop... please...
Special "I'm so important that you MUST hear what I have to say." font and coloring... Check...
Stating opinion as fact... repeatedly... Check...
Condescending phrasing... Check...
Hell, I AGREE with you and your posts STILL make me wanna argue with you...
It's like an election, and I've found one candidate that stands for what I believe in, but he's such a jerk I don't even wanna vote...
:rolleyes:
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
And I discredited your direct response to me because you did not read what I had said. In fact you said and interpreted quite the opposite of what I said. so once gain, either post your valid counterargument to my opinion that this change is something that has not shafted anyone. You feel that 1000 days should reflect 1000 days, great, when the game wasn't F2P I would have agreed with you. It's not now, so once again how do you justify your argument with a no obligation F2P format? I am still waiting for you. Take your time here friend. I look forward to deconstructing your argument piece by piece. Or, you can admit that you misrepresented what I said from the first moment and engage in this discussion like you claim to want to.
What on earth are you talking about? Like I said I have zero intention of indulging you and your self-centered and self-serving view of yourself. You got your answer, whether you like it or not (it was even spoon-fed to you). I swear the people you meet on the internet. :eek:
You have issues fella
So, your overall lack of ability to form a coherent and concise argument when I have more than given you the same original point more than once with the same supporting facts that are in regards to this particular incentive means that you are either unable to give a valid counterargument or you are simply intimidated by the fact that your "argument" could be proven wrong. Or perhaps there is a different underlying reason for why you won't legitimately post a valid counterpoint to my opinion based on the facts that surround this program surrounding the LTS. That's fine, it's okay to admit that you have nothing to go on to provide as an argument, I can appreciate that, in fact you're not alone many people have to endure that. Here's the cold hard facts Jack, This program offers a new incentive for LTS as I have now stated more times than I care to count. Also another fact about this, is that nobody has lost out on anything if they are a LTS. Now, frankly I would prefer to see this reward system gone along with the LTS considering that the game is wholly F2P which btw bud, I mentioned that to you in one of my direct responses to your statement which for whatever reason you have magically managed to overlook or disregard for whatever reasons because this system will create nothing but problems in the future since it is already a no obligation game. Making these "rewards" purchasable in game would be a far better solution as far as I am concerned.
However, this particular program while questionable for the longevity of this game does make sense from a business standpoint for hopes of generating more revenue. I have now stated this more than enough for you to get it. If you don't get this point, then the problem lies with you, not me. Nobody said you had to agree with it. All I said were the obvious facts surrounding the situation I made my opinion about in the first place. Which if you were going to engage in an actual discussion you would have acknowledged that.
Friend, it's over. Give it a rest already. OMW!
It's okay, I understand your frustration. Enjoy your game.
I don't think you understand anything about me friend. What I don't understand however is your persistence in the matter. What are you trying to prove. I mean everything was spelled out for you. Sorry!
And yet you disregarded the counter arguments without even giving a fact to base it off of, it must be nice to think whatever you want and have it actually be true for you. It's okay, I understand, enjoy your game.
You're a bot aren't you... I'm not here to state facts. I am here for 'forum' and to offer my opinion. You are the one who thinks their opinion is fact.
now as for why their actions are a bad business decision:
1. is an absolute and utter insult to all gold level subscribers. the people who pay per month, every 3 months or every 6 months are left in the cold by this decision. most of them are re-evaluating their decision to support this game per month and will ultimately result in them either going f2p or lifetime. either way, this detracts from income that could be earned by PWE over time.
2. their actions do nothing to increase loyal customers. loyal customers are those who support this game either through recurring subscriptions or micro-transactions. with all this money blown on the lifetime for some, it would be harder for them to justify spending more money in the immediate future for micro-transactions. these lifers also reap the benefits of never having to pay for character respecs, extra bridge officer slots, inventories and so on. it takes away from revenue that could have been earned from all these various micro transactions.
3. building customer relationships: in the current marketing environment, many successful companies rely on what is called relationship marketing. in a short sense, relationship marketing occurs when a company builds a positive relationship with their customers. this in turn creates customer loyalty and will increase the chances of the customer repeating their business with the company. the decision by PWE outraged many and thus soured the business relationship with those customers. for those who were not outraged, they did nothing to ensure that these customers would remain loyal to PWE after their large one-time transaction. sure, they may be locked in for "life" but it does not mean that they will continue to do business with this company.
Overall, in my opinion, I think PWE sacrificed long term security for a short term gain. I do not think that this was a great business decision. There was too much sacrificed and not enough gained.
PWE should focus on mending relationships with players to entice them to be and remain loyal customers. they need to do some serious advertising to bring in new players. they need to listen to all of their customers and make improvements across the board. invest some money into this game and actually build it out right. if things are actually done right, this game has the potential to be the star it deserves to be instead of the cash cow it is now waiting to be slaughtered.
- my 2 slits of GPL
@sharpe-
hee hee. when i read that my mind immediately went to this: link
LMAO! Too funny...thank you.
It is still a much needed laugh after a very long evening.
Well thought out and stated, overall I do not disagree with you on any particular point, I have a different opinion regarding the things but then again that's how feedback is meant to be given. Different perspectives give a broader range of things to look at as a whole. With that said, I'm not saying I agree with what has been done with this particular deal, I am also however not upset by it because I do understand the business reasoning behind it.
Of course, regardless of all of that, making this game truly free to play with all perks purchasable through the cash store would actually solve a lot of these problems from surfacing in the future. Which I would love to see happen. They could even manage to give all the LTS if they did away with the LTS the money refunded back in the form of cash shop currency, and then you could use that to purchase the said perks you would want from the old reward system. Granted that wouldn't happen because it would cause just as much of an uproar as this has.
Yes we know, you would rather use a personal opinion to state your argument as opposed to an informed opinion using facts surrounding what this offer actually does for new LTS. We get that you don't know how to make an informed opinion based on fact. You don't need to beat a dead horse about that to me. I figured that out about you more than 2 hours ago. So, I'm going to disregard your further posts since there is nothing to be gained in terms of insightful thought out informed opinions from you. Enjoy your game Redshirt.
Insults and attacks will get you nowhere. Ironic you accused me earlier of attacking you, which I didn't, and now here we are...
I spoon-fed my opinions (which were based on facts) to you yet you choose to ignore them or you do not comprehend them. I don't think you are 'figuring out' much. The only one beating a dead horse here is you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDnTJcjPhY&feature=related
:eek::cool::P
lol. Yup. That sums it up...
the integrity and productivity of this game has been questioned since before it's existence. the prevalent disparity between fed content and klingon content is more than indicative of that. as for productivity itself, these seasons that they have released are seriously lacking in content for the time that we wait. another foul decision they made was to revamp the leveling system. they should have left it the way it was. the way people level is too fast for the game. people do 1 mission and they increase a grade. it's no wonder people are crying for more content. they created a system where people bypass most of the existing content and then twiddle their thumbs with maxed out toons crying for more. all those individual sector space exploration missions, all the nebulas and stuff that could be explored. no one does that stuff anymore, because they don't have to. back in the day, we had to grind these areas to make rank. slow the system down. let people enjoy the ranks and their ships. what's the point of a t1, 2 or 3 ship if you spend a couple hours of gameplay in it?
As for the buffer of time they would need to play catch up, use my suggestion above and work on the game concurrently. They focus too much on one thing and rush it through production. They barely even test their own content, leaving users to test it for them in redshirt and tribble. That within itself is disgusting. Content is supposed to be new and surprising. Giving people a sneak peek to test, debug and explore the new content isn't fair for any consumer. You talk about making the field even and level playing fields right? The users that do this gain a significant advantage over people who don't. They learn the system in tribble and exploit it on holodeck. People raiding the exchange for things they need for the next big thing or hoarding this and hoarding that. It creates an economic disparity that is easily avoidable. All players should be surprised with meaningful, new and bug free content at the same time. Especially when we wait a whole year for a mere handful of episodes.
As for the integrity of the game itself, so many aspects of it are rushed into the mainstream. Incomplete systems that are pushed out and subsequently patched or not (i.e. the cloaking "feature that is working as intended" bug or the skills and powers that are neglected or nerfed), patches that break otherwise working features of the game and so on. Things are done and pushed out without any quality control standards and we are the ones suffering for it. People would experience game breaking bugs because of this. Today, it very rarely reaches critical mass, because you can generally skip missions and such. Before, you were SOL until the fix came.
It's like a chef that is cooking blind and sending out dishes to patrons without tasting it. Then re-evaluating when the dish gets sent back while the patrons wait hungrily. The kicker is that the restaurant still expects to be paid for the meal at the end of the day. Oh, imagine the audacity... lol. we don't have to. we live it. a little "food" for thought, no?
Very good read.
Dec '07 Account
I EARNED 1000 days...I didn't BUY it! New LTS=Death to Vet.System: 10/10/12 Never Forget
Something should be done for those who cared enough to have a 1000+ day sub.
I completely agree with that, it is true and it is something that has been a source of annoyance to me as well. Unfortunately I expected to see this for at least a year or more when I found that PWE would be getting direct invested control over STO from Atari which frankly between the two we got the lesser of two evils. But because of that, this game is nowhere near what PWE likes to have as a set up in their games and frankly because of the nature of this game when it was created it more than likely never will be. So I am under the impression that the solution is to leave what was in place and build the new formula over the existing formula which is going to cause more problems than solve. We have already on more than one occasion seen the implications and the effects of those particular formulas implemented up to and including of course the STF queing system while yes made it easier to find groups. Also made it a nightmare to do them for many people. The constant changing and buffing/nerfing of career abilities or BOFF abilities, the DOFF system all of these things in their own right was not a bad thing but they were not implemented back when the game really needed it to happen. Part of the problem is that we as a player base have adapted to the changes and then when PWE came along everything got turned on it's head and we are all playing catch up trying to establish what is going to be the new status quo for the majority of the game. This game is still in hardcore transition and it probably still will be for a very long time before there becomes an established constant. Honestly, it's not something I look forward to having to endure but I am a devoted fan of this game so I will stick it out regardless of how ridiculous it gets in the transitional stage. I just hope it won't stall in the transition which we have all seen has happened more than once already. Sadly this game was placed in bad hands investment wise to begin with and then it only got worse over time due to massive inaction for a very long time. Now we have more action than we need because various core elements have been thrown so far out of whack in comparison to where it was it's hard to get bearings on what the general plan will be for the future, if it even comes.
- I did make a correction to state that it was harder to justify spending more money after making a large transaction such as the purchase of a LTS. So although my initial claim was an invalid assertion, the correction is not.
And you are correct in this assessment that there is nothing to hold these players to the game after making the transaction. But I ask you from a personal standpoint, how many people would willingly blow a large sum of money on something if there would be any doubt that they would stop playing the game?
- from my personal standpoint, people make all sorts of stupid decisions when purchasing things all the time. it's called impulse buying and often leads to buyer's remorse. happy now because they are flying around in a pretty ship. sad later when they realize there's no new content to use said ship in.
I understand what you mean in this comment but I want you to understand that "technically" Nothing has been sacrificed "technically" All that has been done is given the additional incentive to purchase a LTS. There is no guarantee that this will in fact generate any further revenue for them, it does however make the LTS package more appealing to purchase since the original incentives for the F2P platform were not worth the 299.00 U.S.D. investment.
- the sacrifice itself is intangible, but if you re-read the assertion above, PWE is giving up long term revenue for the short term financial gain. those who feel they have been wronged, whether valid or not, have had their experience negatively affected, which in turn will affect their buying behavior. either way, long term > short term, especially since there isn't any real meaningful content for people to stick around for. the new reputation system will make people re-grind the stfs that many people already hate or loathe. it will appease some people, but overall not make much of a difference. instead of a chance grind, this is a guaranteed grind. as for the new stf. sure it'll be fun for a while. then it will become tedious and boring and even loathed. especially if it's "hard" for some people like IGE and CSE is for a lot. Others like me will snicker and laugh as I punch through it with my mk xii gear.
And this is something I do not disagree with, the real problem is that is a major mountain to surpass due to everything that was put in to "appease" and "offset" all the problems that still exist in this game. I agree that making it a cash cow was not a right decision.
- major mountain, yes. but baby steps. give us back our engineering reports. have a better dev presence both in game and in the forums. we're flying around in the dark, hoping for the best. don't make promises and beat around the bush. just get stuff done. give our feedback some feedback. don't just say "hmm. interesting idea, i'll forward it to whatever department" make things happen. i don't mind waiting. just make sure whatever i'm waiting for is worth it and isn't broken. you can start with fixing your company and giving a damn about this game and it's players.
I think that they should do a better job communicating with the players. We are the ones who will make this boat sink or swim. The outrage expressed on the forums could have been severely mitigated. It all comes back to the lack of communication between community and the game company. There is so much in this game that has to be accounted for. The devs themselves can not be responsible for all of it and due to the lack of direct communication channels, we're left with too large of an area to cover and not enough man power to do anything about it. They would be doing themselves a favor by reaching out to the community and actively participating in it. There are die hard trekkies who hold a plethora of information that can be used to help research and develop new ideas that are canon to the game itself, instead of having the devs come up with the ideas, research it themselves and then try to implement it. Cut those corners. Not the ones you have been cutting recently. The forums are a fantastic place for feedback. Unfortunately, only a percentage of the actual in-game population read and participate in the forums. You can bounce ideas off of us. We can bounce ideas off of you. You can take these ideas to your design meetings and determine which ones are feasible and which ones simply can not be done. All in all, we, the players are an untapped resource for them to exploit properly. We're not just financial assets waiting to be sucked dry. We're happy to give you money, but only if you really deserve it.
P.S. have more people with direct access to the devs in game. i remember when people used to go crazy over the little pink dev chats in ESD. it's little things like that in which could be changed or implemented quickly and cheaply that would assure us that this game is heading in the right direction. this shoot now, ask questions later approach only results in dead customers.
I have to ask, what exactly is Brandon's job? Isn't he the community manager? It seems all he does is link stuff and say cheers.
I never liked the previous ones, but at least they posted especially in hot potato threads.
They generally don't care anymore.
Amen!!! Preach it Brother...