Thought you left anyway? Do you desperately need to get your faulty logic across?
It's not faulty logic Solomace it's called reality about gaming and business. They have not shafted anyone with a Lifetime Subscription. People are enraged about something that is completely trivial, why? If they got their cosmetic rewards already, then it doesn't matter if the new players get theirs. This is an issue of entitlement saying that "I'm more special than you because I got to this game and pumped the money in first." Get over yourselves to the people who feel that way. You're a lifetime subscriber, great, so are many other people. Enjoy the perks that it brings.
Since I am already done with this topic. I'll simply reference you to read everything I posted and then allow you to realize that the argument you are supporting would support a double standard for a lifetime subscription. Either all Lifetime subscriptions reap all the the same rewards or there are no rewards at all. If you shortchange some people who forked out the same level of money like a person like I did during the original year of release by restricting certain perks associated with the lifetime subscription now, you'll just alienate and upset your newest group of supporters. So if you somehow feel that is the better way to handle something like this then you are putting yourself first and the rest of the player base second. I see this for what it is, I'm not upset by it and frankly neither should anyone else who is or has been a lifetime subscriber. You're basically saying yeah sure I'm no longer "unique" for buying my LTS. Well guess what? You are not unique because plenty of people also bought a LTS.
Case in point, accept it or keep trying to advocate a double standard. You're only proving my entitlement argument valid the more you try to claim that certain things should be excluded.
The only middle ground is that all accounts are credited from the time they originally played this game for the first time and then each day they were logged in. I wonder how many people who would lose out of a large number of days would feel if that happened then? How many people would advocate for the loss of credited time to their "veteran" rewards? Because that's what this argument about "veteran" status would be, "Oh sure, you can have this and that for spending the same money we did, but we'll be damned if you can have this." It's a title people, it's not something that gives a game breaking status. It's trivial to even complain about it, it's just another thing that people want to nitpick about that has nothing to do with the actual growth and development of this game when it comes to things like content or improvement. The more it gets argued about, the more the idea of "entitlement" comes to mind.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement and logic here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, derp, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case. At least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic's behalf due to a corruption of greed (it's a cash grab). The issue here is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and have a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people and hence the rage is that an unprecedented move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is all heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case, at least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic behalf due to a corruption of greed. The issue is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and has a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people is that a bold move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
There is absolutely nothing they have done with this that divides the player base. Only you allow yourself to do it because you don't like the good business decisions that are used to make money in a game that you are being allowed to play in the first place. Nothing has been done that is bad about this. I have seen multiple people in this thread talk about how this "veteran reward" system is no longer worth anything and that it's a solid F.U. to the player base who have been around for 3 years. Seriously, this whole argument and attitude about this is beyond childish. MMO gaming is about making money. Not everyone will agree with the decisions that are made to do it. But turning around and somehow thinking that they don't care about the player base is moronic.
EDIT: The only group out there that has shown they don't care about their player base is SOE during their TRIBBLE up with SWG and breaking the law.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case, at least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic behalf due to a corruption of greed. The issue is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and has a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people is that a bold move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
Why is time worthy of respect?
Effort, sure.
But time is just delivery time.
As long as you don't get something LATE, who cares if other people get it early?
I GET the frustration over android variants.
I really don't get why anyone, Cryptic included, should respect time elapsed since purchase. Time SPENT? Sure. Time elapsed? Huh? Why?
It's not faulty logic Solomace it's called reality about gaming and business. They have not shafted anyone with a Lifetime Subscription. People are enraged about something that is completely trivial, why? If they got their cosmetic rewards already, then it doesn't matter if the new players get theirs. This is an issue of entitlement saying that "I'm more special than you because I got to this game and pumped the money in first." Get over yourselves to the people who feel that way. You're a lifetime subscriber, great, so are many other people. Enjoy the perks that it brings.
Still here I see.
Why are you typing in green btw. Do you feel you have to be different? Issues?
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Pay attention then, because I am only going to say this one last time. Longevity DOES NOT DETERMINE LOYALTY.
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
All of you somehow feeling that this reward system being changed for a Lifetime Subscriber is somehow unfair need to look at this from the actual facts. A Lifetime Subscriber no matter when they subscribed NEVER HAS TO PAY FOR THIS GAME EVER AGAIN.
And as of F2P, nobody has to pay ever again full stop. Your point?
Now, you want to sit there and tell me that Longevity should be the prevailing factor in a reward system on what is now a F2P game with no actual financial obligation? Before the F2P conversion I would have agreed with you. However with the F2P platform that argument is no longer something that I can support with any kind of enthusiasm because it would create a double standard for the reward system.
That's not my problem - Cryptic created the rewards system to reward loyal subscribers and people that paid for LTS - and at the time they made it you had to be one or the other - there wasn't a third option.
What they should've done was come up with a proper plan for the veteran scheme - perhaps phasing it out and replacing it with something else - heck, they could've given out bonus Lobi with Zen/C-Store purchases that allowed Silver players to BUY vet rewards from the Lobi store whilst LTS/subscribers still got them for free (every hundred days).
In fact, if they'd gone that route, they could have continued the vet rewards long past the 1000 days (or alternatively offered a Lobi stipend as well as the Zen with subs/LTS). There's no shortage of things they could've done to make the LTS more appealing - they simply took the laziest, greediest route.
As it stands the reward system is now in place for a LTS to gain all of those perks, GREAT I'm glad to see that new LTS have something to look forward to. I feel badly that standard monthly Gold subscribers still have to do it the hard way, but that's is their choice is it not?
Well, ironically new LTS sales have nothing to look forward to - just a big bundle of goodies up front and a Zen stipend for the foreseeable future. As mentioned before though, I agree with you about the subscribers - especially those that are hitting their 1000-day milestone. They should be converted to LTS free. Cryptic won't do that though because they have no respect for their long-term customers.
Making a LTS have it's own segregation within itself from the reward system is a very bad idea.
Which is exactly what Cryptic did to the 1000-day LTS players - they made the fact that they'd reached 1000 days completely moot by giving everyone else the same stuff they've waited nearly three years for. There was no segregation prior to this - you bought the LTS, you waited for your rewards - just like everybody else.
But then again, I also believe that any kind of reward system is also a bad idea because it creates problems with other players.
The only problem it created prior to Cryptic's mismanagement of the whole issue was that inherently an LTS was unappealing - kinda obvious when the game is F2P. The should've come up with a better solution than this and they should've had it in place when F2P went live.
This was a smart business decision and sometimes those decisions people don't agree with. Would you rather less money gets into this game causing it to eventually shut down because of a lack of funds?
Any decision that alienates your long-standing customers is a poor one. And this wasn't considered - it was a ill-conceived cash-grab made just before the first of the veteran ships were due to be awarded. And please no more of the 'would you rather less money gets into the game' arguments - I've heard it way too many times and my answer is always the same:
Every two to three seconds, somebody wins a $250 lockbox ship - anything they're making from this disrespectful cash-grab is a drop in the bucket compared to the cash they're raking in from lockboxes.
Only you allow yourself to do it because you don't like the good business decisions that are used to make money in a game that you are being allowed to play in the first place.
Oh, I'm being allowed to play? Umm, yeah, I'm a consumer who bought the game just like a lot of people. If we aren't allowed to play the game it isn't a MMO or even a game is it...
Nothing has been done that is bad about this. I have seen multiple people in this thread talk about how this "veteran reward" system is no longer worth anything and that it's a solid F.U. to the player base who have been around for 3 years. Seriously, this whole argument and attitude about this is beyond childish.
Oh I get it, your opinion supersedes everyone elses. Talk about entitled. Not to mention myopic, egocentric-regressed, self-centered, self-indulgent, callow, narcissistic, unsophisticated and many other things. Probably the reason you feel the need to type in green. Have fun with yourself and your opinions.
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
When did Vet rewards have anything to do with time spent playing?
It's always just been time elapsed since a $200-300 purchase. An anniversary gift, not ANY indicator of anything earned.
As long as you don't get something LATE, who cares if other people get it early?
I GET the frustration over android variants.
I really don't get why anyone, Cryptic included, should respect time elapsed since purchase. Time SPENT? Sure. Time elapsed? Huh? Why?
Because these people took the plunge not knowing if the game would last 6 days let alone 1000. If they hadn't, I bet we wouldn't be on here talking.
Even cryptic are calling it 1000 day veteran reward? Why? What about the blurb cryptic say about rewarding long standing customers?
Some people are so thankful that cryptic made sto, that they don't pull them on anything.
See my Sig.
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
I never said that, Loyalty comes from people who actively support the game period. Money is the driving motivator for the gaming industry, not the players.
And as of F2P, nobody has to pay ever again full stop. Your point?
The point is that now there is absolutely no reason to even segregate the LTS. All there really is is a monthly stipend. Whoopdedoo. Almost everything is purely cosmetic.
That's not my problem - Cryptic created the rewards system to reward loyal subscribers and people that paid for LTS - and at the time they made it you had to be one or the other - there wasn't a third option.
Yes there was, you didn't play. But that's not the point.
What they should've done was come up with a proper plan for the veteran scheme - perhaps phasing it out and replacing it with something else - heck, they could've given out bonus Lobi with Zen/C-Store purchases that allowed Silver players to BUY vet rewards from the Lobi store whilst LTS/subscribers still got them for free (every hundred days).
And at what point would there be any incentive to have LTS with that option? Loss of money with that idea.
In fact, if they'd gone that route, they could have continued the vet rewards long past the 1000 days (or alternatively offered a Lobi stipend as well as the Zen with subs/LTS). There's no shortage of things they could've done to make the LTS more appealing - they simply took the laziest, greediest route.
They took the smart business route. What you consider lazy or greedy is what Capitalism is all about. Welcome to Online Gaming.
Well, ironically new LTS sales have nothing to look forward to - just a big bundle of goodies up front and a Zen stipend for the foreseeable future. As mentioned before though, I agree with you about the subscribers - especially those that are hitting their 1000-day milestone. They should be converted to LTS free. Cryptic won't do that though because they have no respect for their long-term customers.
Nor should they, it is their right as the owners and operators of the game.
Which is exactly what Cryptic did to the 1000-day LTS players - they made the fact that they'd reached 1000 days completely moot by giving everyone else the same stuff they've waited nearly three years for. There was no segregation prior to this - you bought the LTS, you waited for your rewards - just like everybody else.
No, there still is no segregation, the only segregation is the illusion of one that people have created with the thought that I waited 3 years to get this, now new people get it up front? REALITY CHECK: IT DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE NOW ANYWAYS! *gasp*
The only problem it created prior to Cryptic's mismanagement of the whole issue was that inherently an LTS was unappealing - kinda obvious when the game is F2P. The should've come up with a better solution than this and they should've had it in place when F2P went live.
First of all Cyptic only handles the technical and software aspects of the game. The management of the game falls under PWE and technically CBS don't confuse a development company for being in charge of game changing decisions. They only program it in when they are told to do so.
Any decision that alienates your long-standing customers is a poor one. And this wasn't considered - it was a ill-conceived cash-grab made just before the first of the veteran ships were due to be awarded. And please no more of the 'would you rather less money gets into the game' arguments - I've heard it way too many times and my answer is always the same:
And once again there is no alienation to the player base, once you figure it out that each upcoming reward wasn't even implemented at the inception of the game you might also realize just how idiotic this argument has been in the first place. There is only the illusion of alienation.
Every two to three seconds, somebody wins a $250 lockbox ship - anything they're making from this disrespectful cash-grab is a drop in the bucket compared to the cash they're raking in from lockboxes.
You might be surprised as much much less money they are making off the lock boxes taking into consideration how easy it is to obtain cash store point via dilithium and how easy it is to make EC in this game to purcahse them from people who buy the keys via dilithium. Like it or not, your argument is not nearly as sound as you might like to think.
I'm not so sure it's an issue of respect in this case but there are many examples in society that dictate this. Time is the one thing that we all have that is irreplaceable.
When did Vet rewards have anything to do with time spent playing?
It's always just been time elapsed since a $200-300 purchase. An anniversary gift, not ANY indicator of anything earned.
Well, to be fair luxandra's comment was longevity≠loyalty - the vet rewards were put in place primarily to reward subscribers and 'sweeten the deal' for LTS buyers but were based on a business model that more or less died the minute this game went F2P.
Whatever your opinion is on what the vet rewards signify, up until this point they'd been awarded every 100 days - it's taken 1000-day vets a long time to get here and this ship was always intended to be their 'thing' - irrespective of what you or anyone else personally believes, the evidence is there for all to see in the blog post, Tweets and even in the game text itself for the items.
Cryptic fumbled the ball shamefully on this one - and if I'm honest, I don't think it was them - I'd put the blame on PWE - it all happened too quickly for it to ever have been planned.
Mid-term LTS players got a nice surprise. Non LTS players got a good incentive to buy a subscription but in terms of customer service, we all lost.
You might be surprised as much much less money they are making off the lock boxes taking into consideration how easy it is to obtain cash store point via dilithium and how easy it is to make EC in this game to purcahse them from people who buy the keys via dilithium. Like it or not, your argument is not nearly as sound as you might like to think.
You're the one that's speculating. Plenty of people have done the math and posted the odds of winning one of those ships. You can see for yourself every time somebody wins one and the only place to get keys is the C-Store - Zen has to be spent and that Zen has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magically refreshed - people are buying it. Lots of it.
Obviously you aren't reading this thread let alone the rest of these forums.
You're right I have not payed attention to the base comments outside of this thread and the comments in this thread at all. What would I know about the uproar I have seen and how ridiculous it really is. What would I know about the underlying reasons behind most selfish behaviors that manifest themselves in gaming? Clearly you know me better than I do.
Oh, I'm being allowed to play? Umm, yeah, I'm a consumer who bought the game just like a lot of people. If we aren't allowed to play the game it isn't a MMO or even a game is it...
And yes, you are ALLOWED to play this game just like I am ALLOWED to play this game, you break rules and you can lose that ability. You adhere to policies and you are ALLOWED to access the product. That's what the Terms of Service and the End User Agreement License is about.
Oh I get it, your opinion supersedes everyone elses. Talk about entitled. Not to mention myopic, egocentric-regressed, self-centered, self-indulgent, callow, narcissistic, unsophisticated and many other things. Probably the reason you feel the need to type in green. Have fun with yourself and your opinions.
Your illusion of there being some kind of a segregation in the community due to this change is what is narcissistic. The point blank facts are this, there is absolutely nothing about the reward system that has changed aside from the LTS getting access to all of it all up front. And my response to that is fine. that's how it should be now that the game is F2P. There should be some kind of universal reward that all LTS have direct access to. This is it. Everyone else who isn't one will have to get there the long way. I hate reward systems, but it's here and this is actually about the only balanced way to appease any future LTS's in the first place because the basic benefits prior to this when the game went F2P was certainly not worth getting for a LTS.
I'm not so sure it's an issue of respect in this case but there are many examples in society that dictate this. Time is the one thing that we all have that is irreplaceable.
They did from launch until yesterday.
Incorrect, it was time spent subscribed. time spent playing has NEVER had anything to do with the reward system. If it had, I would wholly endorse THAT kind of reward system.
the vet rewards were put in place primarily to reward subscribers and 'sweeten the deal' for LTS buyers but were based on a business model that more or less died the minute this game went F2P.
I agree with the whole post except for the part above. Even after F2P hit you had to at least be a gold subscriber in order for your vet reward days to increment. Therefore, after F2P hit vet rewards were still incentive to go Gold or purchase a LTS.
You're the one that's speculating. Plenty of people have done the math and posted the odds of winning one of those ships. You can see for yourself every time somebody wins one and the only place to get keys is the C-Store - Zen has to be spent and that Zen has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magically refreshed - people are buying it. Lots of it.
I then direct you to free surveys and free offers page on earning free zen on top of stockpiling dilithium and buying points in bulk. I am not speculating seeing as how I know plenty of people who do exactly that. I can easily if I so choose get over 20 U.S.D. worth of points in about a week doing things like that if I so choose. Now with that being said, that's basically the ability to get 20 keys without spending an actual dime personally. PWE gets paid from the sponsors of those so no matter what, they still make money. Just not from us directly they get it from us indirectly. Now take into consideration the dilithium exchange with about 160 dilithium per point. Even with one toon on an 8k max per day in less than a month you can get 1k points worth from that. With 2 characters you can easily get more. Do the math with multiple people who do that and you can see how easily points can show up on the market with or without direct purchasing. It's not speculation when people do it.
Your illusion of there being some kind of a segregation in the community due to this change is what is narcissistic.
Once again, I direct you to the rest of the forums. If you think players aren't divided on this topic then I highly suggest you pick up reading as a hobby.
there is absolutely nothing about the reward system that has changed aside from the LTS getting access to all of it all up front. And my response to that is fine. that's how it should be now that the game is F2P. There should be some kind of universal reward that all LTS have direct access to. This is it. Everyone else who isn't one will have to get there the long way. I hate reward systems, but it's here and this is actually about the only balanced way to appease any future LTS's in the first place because the basic benefits prior to this when the game went F2P was certainly not worth getting for a LTS.
See above. I could honestly care less about your opinion on this. But if you present your opinions logically we can discuss them and exchange ideas. Hence the word 'forum'. You only seem interested in convincing everyone of your opinion for some reason. How arrogant.
Incorrect, it was time spent subscribed. time spent playing has NEVER had anything to do with the reward system. If it had, I would wholly endorse THAT kind of reward system.
Then I misunderstood stoleviathan's post. Yes, /timeplayed has never had anything to do with vet rewards, only time subscribed.
Once again, I direct you to the rest of the forums. If you think players aren't divided on this topic then I highly suggest you pick up reading as a hobby.
Once again you are here to 'tell me how it is' and force your opinion down everyone's throat. I truly feel sorry for you. How obtuse.
See above. I could honestly care less about your opinion on this. But if you present your opinions logically we can discuss them and exchange ideas. Hence the word 'forum'. You only seem interested in convincing everyone of your opinion for some reason. How arrogant.
then where is your counterpoints? I said the segregation is an illusion based in people somehow feeling that they have been ripped off when in fact they have not. Exchange your counterpoint or do not presume to think you are debating.
I then direct you to free surveys and free offers page on earning free zen on top of stockpiling dilithium and buying points in bulk. I am not speculating seeing as how I know plenty of people who do exactly that. I can easily if I so choose get over 20 U.S.D. worth of points in about a week doing things like that if I so choose. Now with that being said, that's basically the ability to get 20 keys without spending an actual dime personally. PWE gets paid from the sponsors of those so no matter what, they still make money. Just not from us directly they get it from us indirectly. Now take into consideration the dilithium exchange with about 160 dilithium per point. Even with one toon on an 8k max per day in less than a month you can get 1k points worth from that. With 2 characters you can easily get more. Do the math with multiple people who do that and you can see how easily points can show up on the market with or without direct purchasing. It's not speculation when people do it.
Considering you are not privy to viewing the bottom line on the ledger, anything you 'think' that you know is total speculation.
then where is your counterpoints? I said the segregation is an illusion based in people somehow feeling that they have been ripped off when in fact they have not. Exchange your counterpoint or do not presume to think you are debating.
You must not have been around these forums much or for very long. There are many issues that have divided the players going back to the Galaxy X fiasco (see, my time around this game has rewarded me with knowledge of this game's past, guess that makes me a true 'veteran' and not a tin one). You keep on beating the money drum to boot. Once again (or for the hundreth time) it's not about money. Something can be said about putting in the time. Also, forum does not equal debating, don't know where you got that from.
I then direct you to free surveys and free offers page on earning free zen on top of stockpiling dilithium and buying points in bulk. I am not speculating seeing as how I know plenty of people who do exactly that. I can easily if I so choose get over 20 U.S.D. worth of points in about a week doing things like that if I so choose. Now with that being said, that's basically the ability to get 20 keys without spending an actual dime personally. PWE gets paid from the sponsors of those so no matter what, they still make money. Just not from us directly they get it from us indirectly. Now take into consideration the dilithium exchange with about 160 dilithium per point. Even with one toon on an 8k max per day in less than a month you can get 1k points worth from that. With 2 characters you can easily get more. Do the math with multiple people who do that and you can see how easily points can show up on the market with or without direct purchasing. It's not speculation when people do it.
Irrelevant.
Cryptic is wholly-owned subsidiary of PWE - PWE funds Cryptic, not vice-versa. PWE gets money for every one of those deals (a better deal, I suspect than the companies that partner with them given the plethora of players that sign up with dummy accounts) - whether people pay for Zen (which is PWE's currency - not Cryptics) or they fill out the surveys, PWE still makes money.
Any money Cryptic makes (and the way things are set up now, they may actually get nothing) would go to PWE anyway.
I don't doubt that some of the Zen in the Dilithium Exchange is from stipends and Zen offers but the bulk of it is from paying customers. In fact, you're debating the point with one.
I agree with the whole post except for the part above. Even after F2P hit you had to at least be a gold subscriber in order for your vet reward days to increment. Therefore, after F2P hit vet rewards were still incentive to go Gold or purchase a LTS.
What I meant by that is that any kind of veteran rewards scheme is pretty much pointless in a F2P game - had STO been F2P from the beginning it most likely wouldn't have had one (or it would've been some kind of reward scheme tied to C-Store purchases) - ever since F2P came in though, STO's been a strange kind of F2P/P2P hybrid - again, this should've all been worked out before F2P launched.
Pay attention then, because I am only going to say this one last time. Longevity DOES NOT DETERMINE LOYALTY. All of you somehow feeling that this reward system being changed for a Lifetime Subscriber is somehow unfair need to look at this from the actual facts. A Lifetime Subscriber no matter when they subscribed NEVER HAS TO PAY FOR THIS GAME EVER AGAIN. Now then, with that said to give an incentive to purchase the 299.00 U.S.D. package which gives you full access to absolutely everything in this game minus cash shop items...
Making a LTS have it's own segregation within itself from the reward system is a very bad idea. But then again, I also believe that any kind of reward system is also a bad idea because it creates problems with other players. However that is the problem with a F2P game with or without a reward system, money gives additional perks. You don't segregate the perks when the money cost is the same, it doesn't create money flow for the people who run the game in the first place...
I don't think you've actually read anything I've said here. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over in slightly longer sentences. Let me break this response into points so you can reply to my thoughts one at a time:
Where did I mention longevity being related to loyalty? And if that comment wasn't directed at me, who are you actually talking about?
Please define how what anyone is saying here represents a double standard.
You argue that longevity isn't important after F2P. You use your personal feelings to justify your belief, which is fine. Yet at the same time you are telling people to stop using their personal feelings on the subject to justify their position that longevity is important. Is that a double standard?
When did I say anything about segregation of LTS subs? I will repeat what I said already. "I also don't see people arguing that some LTS should get all rewards while others shouldn't."
While I don't know how you came to the conclusion that a reward system is bad in general, it does sum up your entire point and explain why you aren't really reading my posts. You don't like reward systems, so you are staunchly opposed to it, which makes sense now. Still, that doesn't put you position to 'trivialize' the points others make as a result, especially since others do indeed find value in such a thing (hence why it exists).
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Cryptic is wholly-owned subsidiary of PWE - PWE funds Cryptic, not vice-versa. PWE gets money for every one of those deals (a better deal, I suspect than the companies that partner with them given the plethora of players that sign up with dummy accounts) - whether people pay for Zen (which is PWE's currency - not Cryptics) or they fill out the surveys, PWE still makes money.
Any money Cryptic makes (and the way things are set up now, they may actually get nothing) would go to PWE anyway.
I don't doubt that some of the Zen in the Dilithium Exchange is from stipends and Zen offers but the bulk of it is from paying customers. In fact, you're debating the point with one.
It's not irrelevant, it is a measure of fact that each month there is an unconfirmed amount of store points that are given out to all the various qualifying accounts. Now since we don't have an established percentage of players who get that monthly stipend we cannot say one way or another how many of those points are put up on the market to get dilithium for things like fleet equipment or fleet starbase development or what have you. There is also the facts that free points can be easily obtained by people. We can also safely assume that some people do. Now to what extent I can't say, regardless of that fact it would be reasonable to think that a good portion of points that get spent on the game can be directly attributed to that on top of direct purchasing from those who are willing to spend the money to do so. Without direct statistical information from the owners however, we cannot establish what kind of percentage that actually is. So no, it's not irrelevant when the figures cannot be directly accessed by us.
What I meant by that is that any kind of veteran rewards scheme is pretty much pointless in a F2P game - had STO been F2P from the beginning it most likely wouldn't have had one (or it would've been some kind of reward scheme tied to C-Store purchases) - ever since F2P came in though, STO's been a strange kind of F2P/P2P hybrid - again, this should've all been worked out before F2P launched.
I hear ya, Cryptic's failure to totally adapt to change has partially been the game's Achilles' heel. The other being the ability to consistently create content and update the game (PvP, FEs, Exploration, etc). For instance, when this rolled out they should have renamed the 'Veteran rewards' to 'Lifetime perks' or something, would've made more sense.
Considering you are not privy to viewing the bottom line on the ledger, anything you 'think' that you know is total speculation.
You must not have been around these forums much or for very long. There are many issues that have divided the players going back to the Galaxy X fiasco (see, my time around this game has rewarded me with knowledge of this game's past, guess that makes me a true 'veteran' and not a tin one). You keep on beating the money drum to boot. Once again (or for the hundreth time) it's not about money. Something can be said about putting in the time.
Gaming is ALL about money. That is the mainstream MMO dynamic now. Back when online gaming comprised of flash games or simple MUD's where these activities were created by someone and didn't cost anything to play aside from the cost of connecting to the internet is when money didn't matter. Online gaming is now a business and because it is a business, MAKING money is the principle motivator for making games such as these. I have been around these forums forever and finally decided to post here instead of starting a chat war in game. I have spent time on this game for a very long time, and I see all the changes and improvements and some destruction of good things in this game. I have also witnessed it many times over spanning dozens of games. You keep making assumptions about me thinking that it justifies this argument. People naturally disagree, but what has been done mechanically in the game has not segregated the community in terms of what people get. The only thing that has changed with this is that LTS all get the same rewards regardless of time subscribed. Great I'm thrilled for that. Getting upset about any one particular thing regarding it however unless you are a monthly subscriber or a F2P account is really a moot point because all of the LTS are now officially on the same page reward wise. Which is the way it should be since we all put forth a sizeable amount of money to get it in the first place because we enjoy the game enough to do so. Arguing the semantic that someone payed earlier than someone else is as I stated many times already. An entitlement issue and an ego problem nothing more.
And putting my money where my mouth is (so to speak)...
This is what they should've done IMO:
1) Formally announce the end of the veteran rewards at 1000 days.
2) Announce that all Gold subscribers would get complimentary LTS status on reaching 1000 days.
3) Offer discounts on LTS to Gold subscribers based on the length of time they'd subscribed for.
4) Retired monthly subscriptions leaving F2P or LTS as the only options.
5) Allowed Silver players to use their accumulated play-time towards vet rewards should they purchase a LTS.
6) Started putting certain veteran rewards into the Lobi store - 1 new one every couple of months or so.
7) Reduce the Zen price on certain necessary perks (respecs).
8) Ultimately (within 6-12 months) phase out the LTS (to new purchasers) altogether - giving the players plenty of notice that it's happening (leaving themselves the option of reintroducing it for short periods of time).
9) If they wanted to be really nice to LTS players they could've given them a Lobi stipend too (say 10 Lobi per month).
That's just one way of doing it - doubtless there's many other people could think of.
That is the mainstream MMO dynamic now. Back when online gaming comprised of flash games or simple MUD's where these activities were created by someone and didn't cost anything to play aside from the cost of connecting to the internet is when money didn't matter.
Wrong. The goal of ANY business venture is to make money, even if a 5 y.o.'s lemonade stand.
Online gaming is now a business and because it is a business, MAKING money is the principle motivator for making games such as these. I have been around these forums forever and finally decided to post here instead of starting a chat war in game. I have spent time on this game for a very long time, and I see all the changes and improvements and some destruction of good things in this game. I have also witnessed it many times over spanning dozens of games. You keep making assumptions about me thinking that it justifies this argument. People naturally disagree, but what has been done mechanically in the game has not segregated the community in terms of what people get. The only thing that has changed with this is that LTS all get the same rewards regardless of time subscribed. Great I'm thrilled for that. Getting upset about any one particular thing regarding it however unless you are a monthly subscriber or a F2P account is really a moot point because all of the LTS are now officially on the same page reward wise. Which is the way it should be since we all put forth a sizeable amount of money to get it in the first place because we enjoy the game enough to do so. Arguing the semantic that someone payed earlier than someone else is as I stated many times already. An entitlement issue and an ego problem nothing more.
Do not lecture me on economics, you are most certainly not qualified. A business making money is very important but business ethics are as well. A business can be judged by how it treats its customers. Treat your customers well and the money will roll in. It a basic principle that every student is taught.
...Without direct statistical information from the owners however, we cannot establish what kind of percentage that actually is. So no, it's not irrelevant when the figures cannot be directly accessed by us.
Actually, it is irrelevant. As you said here, we have no factual information for the owner and we have no access to the figures. All you can do is speculate, which is what you've done here, so weylandjuarez's original point still stands. Also, his argument appears to be supported by the majority of analysis done by the community and comments from Cryptic.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Comments
It's not faulty logic Solomace it's called reality about gaming and business. They have not shafted anyone with a Lifetime Subscription. People are enraged about something that is completely trivial, why? If they got their cosmetic rewards already, then it doesn't matter if the new players get theirs. This is an issue of entitlement saying that "I'm more special than you because I got to this game and pumped the money in first." Get over yourselves to the people who feel that way. You're a lifetime subscriber, great, so are many other people. Enjoy the perks that it brings.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement and logic here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, derp, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case. At least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic's behalf due to a corruption of greed (it's a cash grab). The issue here is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and have a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people and hence the rage is that an unprecedented move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is all heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
There is absolutely nothing they have done with this that divides the player base. Only you allow yourself to do it because you don't like the good business decisions that are used to make money in a game that you are being allowed to play in the first place. Nothing has been done that is bad about this. I have seen multiple people in this thread talk about how this "veteran reward" system is no longer worth anything and that it's a solid F.U. to the player base who have been around for 3 years. Seriously, this whole argument and attitude about this is beyond childish. MMO gaming is about making money. Not everyone will agree with the decisions that are made to do it. But turning around and somehow thinking that they don't care about the player base is moronic.
EDIT: The only group out there that has shown they don't care about their player base is SOE during their TRIBBLE up with SWG and breaking the law.
Why is time worthy of respect?
Effort, sure.
But time is just delivery time.
As long as you don't get something LATE, who cares if other people get it early?
I GET the frustration over android variants.
I really don't get why anyone, Cryptic included, should respect time elapsed since purchase. Time SPENT? Sure. Time elapsed? Huh? Why?
Still here I see.
Why are you typing in green btw. Do you feel you have to be different? Issues?
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
And as of F2P, nobody has to pay ever again full stop. Your point?
That's not my problem - Cryptic created the rewards system to reward loyal subscribers and people that paid for LTS - and at the time they made it you had to be one or the other - there wasn't a third option.
What they should've done was come up with a proper plan for the veteran scheme - perhaps phasing it out and replacing it with something else - heck, they could've given out bonus Lobi with Zen/C-Store purchases that allowed Silver players to BUY vet rewards from the Lobi store whilst LTS/subscribers still got them for free (every hundred days).
In fact, if they'd gone that route, they could have continued the vet rewards long past the 1000 days (or alternatively offered a Lobi stipend as well as the Zen with subs/LTS). There's no shortage of things they could've done to make the LTS more appealing - they simply took the laziest, greediest route.
Well, ironically new LTS sales have nothing to look forward to - just a big bundle of goodies up front and a Zen stipend for the foreseeable future. As mentioned before though, I agree with you about the subscribers - especially those that are hitting their 1000-day milestone. They should be converted to LTS free. Cryptic won't do that though because they have no respect for their long-term customers.
Which is exactly what Cryptic did to the 1000-day LTS players - they made the fact that they'd reached 1000 days completely moot by giving everyone else the same stuff they've waited nearly three years for. There was no segregation prior to this - you bought the LTS, you waited for your rewards - just like everybody else.
The only problem it created prior to Cryptic's mismanagement of the whole issue was that inherently an LTS was unappealing - kinda obvious when the game is F2P. The should've come up with a better solution than this and they should've had it in place when F2P went live.
Any decision that alienates your long-standing customers is a poor one. And this wasn't considered - it was a ill-conceived cash-grab made just before the first of the veteran ships were due to be awarded. And please no more of the 'would you rather less money gets into the game' arguments - I've heard it way too many times and my answer is always the same:
Every two to three seconds, somebody wins a $250 lockbox ship - anything they're making from this disrespectful cash-grab is a drop in the bucket compared to the cash they're raking in from lockboxes.
Obviously you aren't reading this thread let alone the rest of these forums.
Oh, I'm being allowed to play? Umm, yeah, I'm a consumer who bought the game just like a lot of people. If we aren't allowed to play the game it isn't a MMO or even a game is it...
Oh I get it, your opinion supersedes everyone elses. Talk about entitled. Not to mention myopic, egocentric-regressed, self-centered, self-indulgent, callow, narcissistic, unsophisticated and many other things. Probably the reason you feel the need to type in green. Have fun with yourself and your opinions.
OMG! Just saw this - I love it! Hats off to you sir!
When did Vet rewards have anything to do with time spent playing?
It's always just been time elapsed since a $200-300 purchase. An anniversary gift, not ANY indicator of anything earned.
Because these people took the plunge not knowing if the game would last 6 days let alone 1000. If they hadn't, I bet we wouldn't be on here talking.
Even cryptic are calling it 1000 day veteran reward? Why? What about the blurb cryptic say about rewarding long standing customers?
Some people are so thankful that cryptic made sto, that they don't pull them on anything.
See my Sig.
You might be surprised as much much less money they are making off the lock boxes taking into consideration how easy it is to obtain cash store point via dilithium and how easy it is to make EC in this game to purcahse them from people who buy the keys via dilithium. Like it or not, your argument is not nearly as sound as you might like to think.
I'm not so sure it's an issue of respect in this case but there are many examples in society that dictate this. Time is the one thing that we all have that is irreplaceable.
They did from launch until yesterday.
Well, to be fair luxandra's comment was longevity≠loyalty - the vet rewards were put in place primarily to reward subscribers and 'sweeten the deal' for LTS buyers but were based on a business model that more or less died the minute this game went F2P.
Whatever your opinion is on what the vet rewards signify, up until this point they'd been awarded every 100 days - it's taken 1000-day vets a long time to get here and this ship was always intended to be their 'thing' - irrespective of what you or anyone else personally believes, the evidence is there for all to see in the blog post, Tweets and even in the game text itself for the items.
Cryptic fumbled the ball shamefully on this one - and if I'm honest, I don't think it was them - I'd put the blame on PWE - it all happened too quickly for it to ever have been planned.
Mid-term LTS players got a nice surprise. Non LTS players got a good incentive to buy a subscription but in terms of customer service, we all lost.
You're the one that's speculating. Plenty of people have done the math and posted the odds of winning one of those ships. You can see for yourself every time somebody wins one and the only place to get keys is the C-Store - Zen has to be spent and that Zen has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magically refreshed - people are buying it. Lots of it.
Your illusion of there being some kind of a segregation in the community due to this change is what is narcissistic. The point blank facts are this, there is absolutely nothing about the reward system that has changed aside from the LTS getting access to all of it all up front. And my response to that is fine. that's how it should be now that the game is F2P. There should be some kind of universal reward that all LTS have direct access to. This is it. Everyone else who isn't one will have to get there the long way. I hate reward systems, but it's here and this is actually about the only balanced way to appease any future LTS's in the first place because the basic benefits prior to this when the game went F2P was certainly not worth getting for a LTS.
Incorrect, it was time spent subscribed. time spent playing has NEVER had anything to do with the reward system. If it had, I would wholly endorse THAT kind of reward system.
I agree with the whole post except for the part above. Even after F2P hit you had to at least be a gold subscriber in order for your vet reward days to increment. Therefore, after F2P hit vet rewards were still incentive to go Gold or purchase a LTS.
I then direct you to free surveys and free offers page on earning free zen on top of stockpiling dilithium and buying points in bulk. I am not speculating seeing as how I know plenty of people who do exactly that. I can easily if I so choose get over 20 U.S.D. worth of points in about a week doing things like that if I so choose. Now with that being said, that's basically the ability to get 20 keys without spending an actual dime personally. PWE gets paid from the sponsors of those so no matter what, they still make money. Just not from us directly they get it from us indirectly. Now take into consideration the dilithium exchange with about 160 dilithium per point. Even with one toon on an 8k max per day in less than a month you can get 1k points worth from that. With 2 characters you can easily get more. Do the math with multiple people who do that and you can see how easily points can show up on the market with or without direct purchasing. It's not speculation when people do it.
Once again, I direct you to the rest of the forums. If you think players aren't divided on this topic then I highly suggest you pick up reading as a hobby.
Once again you are here to 'tell me how it is' and force your opinion down everyone's throat. I truly feel sorry for you. How obtuse.
See above. I could honestly care less about your opinion on this. But if you present your opinions logically we can discuss them and exchange ideas. Hence the word 'forum'. You only seem interested in convincing everyone of your opinion for some reason. How arrogant.
Then I misunderstood stoleviathan's post. Yes, /timeplayed has never had anything to do with vet rewards, only time subscribed.
then where is your counterpoints? I said the segregation is an illusion based in people somehow feeling that they have been ripped off when in fact they have not. Exchange your counterpoint or do not presume to think you are debating.
Considering you are not privy to viewing the bottom line on the ledger, anything you 'think' that you know is total speculation.
You must not have been around these forums much or for very long. There are many issues that have divided the players going back to the Galaxy X fiasco (see, my time around this game has rewarded me with knowledge of this game's past, guess that makes me a true 'veteran' and not a tin one). You keep on beating the money drum to boot. Once again (or for the hundreth time) it's not about money. Something can be said about putting in the time. Also, forum does not equal debating, don't know where you got that from.
Irrelevant.
Cryptic is wholly-owned subsidiary of PWE - PWE funds Cryptic, not vice-versa. PWE gets money for every one of those deals (a better deal, I suspect than the companies that partner with them given the plethora of players that sign up with dummy accounts) - whether people pay for Zen (which is PWE's currency - not Cryptics) or they fill out the surveys, PWE still makes money.
Any money Cryptic makes (and the way things are set up now, they may actually get nothing) would go to PWE anyway.
I don't doubt that some of the Zen in the Dilithium Exchange is from stipends and Zen offers but the bulk of it is from paying customers. In fact, you're debating the point with one.
What I meant by that is that any kind of veteran rewards scheme is pretty much pointless in a F2P game - had STO been F2P from the beginning it most likely wouldn't have had one (or it would've been some kind of reward scheme tied to C-Store purchases) - ever since F2P came in though, STO's been a strange kind of F2P/P2P hybrid - again, this should've all been worked out before F2P launched.
I don't think you've actually read anything I've said here. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over in slightly longer sentences. Let me break this response into points so you can reply to my thoughts one at a time:
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
It's not irrelevant, it is a measure of fact that each month there is an unconfirmed amount of store points that are given out to all the various qualifying accounts. Now since we don't have an established percentage of players who get that monthly stipend we cannot say one way or another how many of those points are put up on the market to get dilithium for things like fleet equipment or fleet starbase development or what have you. There is also the facts that free points can be easily obtained by people. We can also safely assume that some people do. Now to what extent I can't say, regardless of that fact it would be reasonable to think that a good portion of points that get spent on the game can be directly attributed to that on top of direct purchasing from those who are willing to spend the money to do so. Without direct statistical information from the owners however, we cannot establish what kind of percentage that actually is. So no, it's not irrelevant when the figures cannot be directly accessed by us.
I hear ya, Cryptic's failure to totally adapt to change has partially been the game's Achilles' heel. The other being the ability to consistently create content and update the game (PvP, FEs, Exploration, etc). For instance, when this rolled out they should have renamed the 'Veteran rewards' to 'Lifetime perks' or something, would've made more sense.
Gaming is ALL about money. That is the mainstream MMO dynamic now. Back when online gaming comprised of flash games or simple MUD's where these activities were created by someone and didn't cost anything to play aside from the cost of connecting to the internet is when money didn't matter. Online gaming is now a business and because it is a business, MAKING money is the principle motivator for making games such as these. I have been around these forums forever and finally decided to post here instead of starting a chat war in game. I have spent time on this game for a very long time, and I see all the changes and improvements and some destruction of good things in this game. I have also witnessed it many times over spanning dozens of games. You keep making assumptions about me thinking that it justifies this argument. People naturally disagree, but what has been done mechanically in the game has not segregated the community in terms of what people get. The only thing that has changed with this is that LTS all get the same rewards regardless of time subscribed. Great I'm thrilled for that. Getting upset about any one particular thing regarding it however unless you are a monthly subscriber or a F2P account is really a moot point because all of the LTS are now officially on the same page reward wise. Which is the way it should be since we all put forth a sizeable amount of money to get it in the first place because we enjoy the game enough to do so. Arguing the semantic that someone payed earlier than someone else is as I stated many times already. An entitlement issue and an ego problem nothing more.
This is what they should've done IMO:
1) Formally announce the end of the veteran rewards at 1000 days.
2) Announce that all Gold subscribers would get complimentary LTS status on reaching 1000 days.
3) Offer discounts on LTS to Gold subscribers based on the length of time they'd subscribed for.
4) Retired monthly subscriptions leaving F2P or LTS as the only options.
5) Allowed Silver players to use their accumulated play-time towards vet rewards should they purchase a LTS.
6) Started putting certain veteran rewards into the Lobi store - 1 new one every couple of months or so.
7) Reduce the Zen price on certain necessary perks (respecs).
8) Ultimately (within 6-12 months) phase out the LTS (to new purchasers) altogether - giving the players plenty of notice that it's happening (leaving themselves the option of reintroducing it for short periods of time).
9) If they wanted to be really nice to LTS players they could've given them a Lobi stipend too (say 10 Lobi per month).
That's just one way of doing it - doubtless there's many other people could think of.
*derp* really? *derp*
Wrong. The goal of ANY business venture is to make money, even if a 5 y.o.'s lemonade stand.
Do not lecture me on economics, you are most certainly not qualified. A business making money is very important but business ethics are as well. A business can be judged by how it treats its customers. Treat your customers well and the money will roll in. It a basic principle that every student is taught.
Actually, it is irrelevant. As you said here, we have no factual information for the owner and we have no access to the figures. All you can do is speculate, which is what you've done here, so weylandjuarez's original point still stands. Also, his argument appears to be supported by the majority of analysis done by the community and comments from Cryptic.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor