It is 100% trivial, and I'll explain why. For all of us who have been Lifetime Subscribers since the game came out, we have had the ability to see absolutely everything that has been in place in this game, we have put forth our two cents worth of input. We have helped to develop other players. We have done all these various things. The reason why this argument is 100% trivial is because the ones getting into an uproar somehow feel that their money is now considered worthless because other people who now fork out the money for a Lifetime Subscription will get the EXACT same perks...
You make quite a few assumptions, almost all of which I already addressed in my first post to you. The same arguments I already mentioned still apply to everything you just said here. You seem to want this out to be about money. Read the first sentence in my last post. I think most people agree this has boosted the value of an LTS purchase. But the boost is relative to the amount of time you already put into the game.
Just because you are missing their argument doesn't make what they are doing trivial. If it were trivial, you wouldn't see people posting about it constantly since the announcement. What I think you are trying to say is that the change benefits a majority of players, and the ones who are complaining should consider that in their arguments. But you shouldn't be telling them it's completely trivial and nonsense that they keep arguing against a change that you personally like and may even benefit from.
It's like watching all your co-workers get a 5k Christmas bonus and your boss telling you "Sorry you got yours already in your last pay increase." You could argue that it's trivial, you weren't entitled to it, and you didn't really lose anything. But it doesn't make you feel good, does it?
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
You make quite a few assumptions, almost all of which I already addressed in my first post to you. The same arguments I already mentioned still apply to everything you just said here. You seem to want this out to be about money. Read the first sentence in my last post. I think most people agree this has boosted the value of an LTS purchase. But the boost is relative to the amount of time you already put into the game.
Just because you are missing their argument doesn't make what they are doing trivial. If it were trivial, you wouldn't see people posting about it constantly since the announcement. What I think you are trying to say is that the change benefits a majority of players, and the ones who are complaining should consider that in their arguments. But you shouldn't be telling them it's completely trivial and nonsense that they keep arguing against a change that you personally like and may even benefit from.
It's like watching all your co-workers get a 5k Christmas bonus and your boss telling you "Sorry you got yours already in your last pay increase." You could argue that it's trivial, you weren't entitled to it, and you didn't really lose anything. But it doesn't make you feel good, does it?
That's the whole point, they have not lost anything to begin with. Neither have I, the argument is about a double standard belief with the lifetime subscription. If everyone else aside from me who has had a Lifetime Subscription from the onset of the game somehow feel this has lessened the value of their LTS, then they are wrong. Our status has not changed at all. This is to motivate more poeple to buy one who thought about it before, that's what this whole thing has been about. Removing some of the perks just to satisfy a bruised ego about a title or some such is both wrong and idiotic period.
Seriously though - who's asking for anyone to have anything less? I paid for my LTS, I got my rewards over 1000 days - why shouldn't they?
When I bought my LTS I didn't get free C-Points or Zen. When I bought my LTS the game was a lot less developed than it is now.
In no way is someone buying an LTS now getting less than I did.
And in answer to your speculation, I wouldn't have a problem if someone's 'veteran' status was calculated from when they first set up an account (Silver, Gold right from the start, whatever).
In fact, I don't have an issue with anyone buying an LTS now and getting their titles and goodies immediately - I have an issue with Cryptic - specifically how they've handled this and what it says about their opinion of their longest-standing supporters.
And as if further validation of my previous comments were necessary, the moderators are busily consolidating all these threads into one easily locked and forgotten one - just like nothing ever happened...
this is probably the biggest bone headed idea anyone has had . what is wrong with you people , do you care anything about the player base ? The ones that have probably paid most of your salaries 10 times over in the last 3 years , do you not care that our loyalty to you is worth this .. A knife in the back . is that you really think of us ?
This is SWG all over again!!
This is a -far- cry from what SoE did with SW:G. There was a post (I'd have to find it) where someone said "why not reward the people who are willing to dish out the extra money for buying zen and using it instead of x". The reply was "Yea, something should be done for people who have spent extra money on the game".
This is the conclusion. Rather than say "Ok, here all you non-lifetime gamers, get this benefit for spending x-hundred of dollars on the game" they said "Here, all you LTS players, we're gonna give you this benefit as a thank you for being LTS members!"
Honestly, you should be happy they did this and not the other.
Seriously though - who's asking for anyone to have anything less? I paid for my LTS, I got my rewards over 1000 days - why shouldn't they?
When I bought my LTS I didn't get free C-Points or Zen. When I bought my LTS the game was a lot less developed than it is now.
In no way is someone buying an LTS now getting less than I did.
And in answer to your speculation, I wouldn't have a problem if someone's 'veteran' status was calculated from when they first set up an account (Silver, Gold right from the start, whatever).
In fact, I don't have an issue with anyone buying an LTS now and getting their titles and goodies immediately - I have an issue with Cryptic - specifically how they've handled this and what it says about their opinion of their longest-standing supporters.
And as if further validation of my previous comments were necessary, the moderators are busily consolidating all these threads into one easily locked and forgotten one - just like nothing ever happened...
Once again you are judging their opinion of their player base as fact. There is only one fact here, so try to keep up this time. This is about being able to give an incentive to some players to spend more money and actually feel like they are getting something worthwhile in return. The fact that you somehow think that everyone have to wait 1000 days just to reap the rewards of this system under a lifetime subscription now that the game has gone F2P and has been for almost a year now is idiotic. You are literally saying that your lifetime subscription is worth more than those who have had one for less time regardless if they spent more or less money on this game than you overall. Are you nuts or simply delusional? What this change actually does is allow for lifetime subscriptions to all share ALL (read that carefully) ALL of the aspects that are in this game minus what you have to purchase from the cash shop. And you never HAVE (read that word too.) HAVE to spend another dime on this game ever again. Frankly, I can't think of a better incentive to give potentially new LTS than this, telling them they still have to wait one two three years just to get these rewards will give absolutely nothing in terms of additional money flow. You are no less important than you were before so stop trying to throw a pity party for yourself that somehow you have been given a middle finger. You haven't. A real middle finger would have been to tell you that you have to keep spending money in order to earn these rewards in the first place after dropping 299.00 U.S.D. Get over yourself already, I'm done being nice.
That's the whole point, they have not lost anything to begin with. Neither have I, the argument is about a double standard belief with the lifetime subscription. If everyone else aside from me who has had a Lifetime Subscription from the onset of the game somehow feel this has lessened the value of their LTS, then they are wrong. Our status has not changed at all. This is to motivate more poeple to buy one who thought about it before, that's what this whole thing has been about. Removing some of the perks just to satisfy a bruised ego about a title or some such is both wrong and idiotic period.
You keep saying this a double standard, I'm not following your logic. Please explain.
Again, I don't see anyone arguing that this has lessened the value of their LTS purchase. I also don't see people arguing that some LTS should get all rewards while others shouldn't. The argument is that the system should reward longevity. What they are unhappy about is Cryptic has taken away a system that once made it an honor to have purchased your LTS at launch (or subbed for as long) and turned you into another name in the bucket.
Trivializing people because this isn't important to you is inconsiderate to others who perceive that is something valuable. It doesn't matter if you or I agree on the value of that perception, calling them idiots because of it isn't justified.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Re-read my post - I said no such thing - I even said I'm happy for the players that are buying into this and getting what they want out of it.
Once more, my issue is Cryptic, their handling of the matter and what it says about the value they've put on their long-term customers.
There were many, many ways they could have made the LTS more appealing - but instead they chose the quickest, greediest, most disrespectful option - they didn't even take the time to change the wording on the ship descriptions to 'as a Lifetime Subscriber' - all any of us is to them is wallet waiting to be plundered - we're not customers - just suckers.
You keep saying this a double standard, I'm not following your logic. Please explain.
Again, I don't see anyone arguing that this has lessened the value of their LTS purchase. I also don't see people arguing that some LTS should get all rewards while others shouldn't. The argument is that the system should reward longevity. What they are unhappy about is Cryptic has taken away a system that once made it an honor to have purchased your LTS at launch (or subbed for as long) and turned you into another name in the bucket.
Trivializing people because this isn't important to you is inconsiderate to others who perceive that is something valuable. It doesn't matter if you or I agree on the value of that perception, calling them idiots because of it isn't justified.
Pay attention then, because I am only going to say this one last time. Longevity DOES NOT DETERMINE LOYALTY. All of you somehow feeling that this reward system being changed for a Lifetime Subscriber is somehow unfair need to look at this from the actual facts. A Lifetime Subscriber no matter when they subscribed NEVER HAS TO PAY FOR THIS GAME EVER AGAIN. Now then, with that said to give an incentive to purchase the 299.00 U.S.D. package which gives you full access to absolutely everything in this game minus cash shop items. With the exception of course of the Borg Bridge Officer and the Liberated Borg Playable Captain, there is no more obligation to have to spend one more cent on this game as a result. Now, you want to sit there and tell me that Longevity should be the prevailing factor in a reward system on what is now a F2P game with no actual financial obligation? Before the F2P conversion I would have agreed with you. However with the F2P platform that argument is no longer something that I can support with any kind of enthusiasm because it would create a double standard for the reward system.
As it stands the reward system is now in place for a LTS to gain all of those perks, GREAT I'm glad to see that new LTS have something to look forward to. I feel badly that standard monthly Gold subscribers still have to do it the hard way, but that's is their choice is it not? They still contribute the same if not more than me to this game and I salute them for it. Making a LTS have it's own segregation within itself from the reward system is a very bad idea. But then again, I also believe that any kind of reward system is also a bad idea because it creates problems with other players. However that is the problem with a F2P game with or without a reward system, money gives additional perks. You don't segregate the perks when the money cost is the same, it doesn't create money flow for the people who run the game in the first place. This was a smart business decision and sometimes those decisions people don't agree with. Would you rather less money gets into this game causing it to eventually shut down because of a lack of funds?
Seriously though - who's asking for anyone to have anything less? I paid for my LTS, I got my rewards over 1000 days - why shouldn't they?
By all means, tell me how you did not say what you said. Over 1000 days, why shouldn't they? That's your entitlement kicking in right there. So please by all means tell me how you did not say what you said in that.
Pay attention then, because I am only going to say this one last tIme/FONT]
Man, you have so many issues it's unbelievable. Are you a dev in disguise? I think I prefer those with "Entitlement" issues over someone who likes to give out orders.
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Oh really? I direct you to what you said in your last post.
By all means, tell me how you did not say what you said. Over 1000 days, why shouldn't they? That's your entitlement kicking in right there. So please by all means tell me how you did not say what you said in that.
Thought you left anyway? Do you desperately need to get your faulty logic across?
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Thought you left anyway? Do you desperately need to get your faulty logic across?
It's not faulty logic Solomace it's called reality about gaming and business. They have not shafted anyone with a Lifetime Subscription. People are enraged about something that is completely trivial, why? If they got their cosmetic rewards already, then it doesn't matter if the new players get theirs. This is an issue of entitlement saying that "I'm more special than you because I got to this game and pumped the money in first." Get over yourselves to the people who feel that way. You're a lifetime subscriber, great, so are many other people. Enjoy the perks that it brings.
Since I am already done with this topic. I'll simply reference you to read everything I posted and then allow you to realize that the argument you are supporting would support a double standard for a lifetime subscription. Either all Lifetime subscriptions reap all the the same rewards or there are no rewards at all. If you shortchange some people who forked out the same level of money like a person like I did during the original year of release by restricting certain perks associated with the lifetime subscription now, you'll just alienate and upset your newest group of supporters. So if you somehow feel that is the better way to handle something like this then you are putting yourself first and the rest of the player base second. I see this for what it is, I'm not upset by it and frankly neither should anyone else who is or has been a lifetime subscriber. You're basically saying yeah sure I'm no longer "unique" for buying my LTS. Well guess what? You are not unique because plenty of people also bought a LTS.
Case in point, accept it or keep trying to advocate a double standard. You're only proving my entitlement argument valid the more you try to claim that certain things should be excluded.
The only middle ground is that all accounts are credited from the time they originally played this game for the first time and then each day they were logged in. I wonder how many people who would lose out of a large number of days would feel if that happened then? How many people would advocate for the loss of credited time to their "veteran" rewards? Because that's what this argument about "veteran" status would be, "Oh sure, you can have this and that for spending the same money we did, but we'll be damned if you can have this." It's a title people, it's not something that gives a game breaking status. It's trivial to even complain about it, it's just another thing that people want to nitpick about that has nothing to do with the actual growth and development of this game when it comes to things like content or improvement. The more it gets argued about, the more the idea of "entitlement" comes to mind.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement and logic here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, derp, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case. At least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic's behalf due to a corruption of greed (it's a cash grab). The issue here is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and have a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people and hence the rage is that an unprecedented move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is all heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case, at least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic behalf due to a corruption of greed. The issue is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and has a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people is that a bold move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
There is absolutely nothing they have done with this that divides the player base. Only you allow yourself to do it because you don't like the good business decisions that are used to make money in a game that you are being allowed to play in the first place. Nothing has been done that is bad about this. I have seen multiple people in this thread talk about how this "veteran reward" system is no longer worth anything and that it's a solid F.U. to the player base who have been around for 3 years. Seriously, this whole argument and attitude about this is beyond childish. MMO gaming is about making money. Not everyone will agree with the decisions that are made to do it. But turning around and somehow thinking that they don't care about the player base is moronic.
EDIT: The only group out there that has shown they don't care about their player base is SOE during their TRIBBLE up with SWG and breaking the law.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case, at least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic behalf due to a corruption of greed. The issue is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and has a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people is that a bold move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
Why is time worthy of respect?
Effort, sure.
But time is just delivery time.
As long as you don't get something LATE, who cares if other people get it early?
I GET the frustration over android variants.
I really don't get why anyone, Cryptic included, should respect time elapsed since purchase. Time SPENT? Sure. Time elapsed? Huh? Why?
It's not faulty logic Solomace it's called reality about gaming and business. They have not shafted anyone with a Lifetime Subscription. People are enraged about something that is completely trivial, why? If they got their cosmetic rewards already, then it doesn't matter if the new players get theirs. This is an issue of entitlement saying that "I'm more special than you because I got to this game and pumped the money in first." Get over yourselves to the people who feel that way. You're a lifetime subscriber, great, so are many other people. Enjoy the perks that it brings.
Still here I see.
Why are you typing in green btw. Do you feel you have to be different? Issues?
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Pay attention then, because I am only going to say this one last time. Longevity DOES NOT DETERMINE LOYALTY.
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
All of you somehow feeling that this reward system being changed for a Lifetime Subscriber is somehow unfair need to look at this from the actual facts. A Lifetime Subscriber no matter when they subscribed NEVER HAS TO PAY FOR THIS GAME EVER AGAIN.
And as of F2P, nobody has to pay ever again full stop. Your point?
Now, you want to sit there and tell me that Longevity should be the prevailing factor in a reward system on what is now a F2P game with no actual financial obligation? Before the F2P conversion I would have agreed with you. However with the F2P platform that argument is no longer something that I can support with any kind of enthusiasm because it would create a double standard for the reward system.
That's not my problem - Cryptic created the rewards system to reward loyal subscribers and people that paid for LTS - and at the time they made it you had to be one or the other - there wasn't a third option.
What they should've done was come up with a proper plan for the veteran scheme - perhaps phasing it out and replacing it with something else - heck, they could've given out bonus Lobi with Zen/C-Store purchases that allowed Silver players to BUY vet rewards from the Lobi store whilst LTS/subscribers still got them for free (every hundred days).
In fact, if they'd gone that route, they could have continued the vet rewards long past the 1000 days (or alternatively offered a Lobi stipend as well as the Zen with subs/LTS). There's no shortage of things they could've done to make the LTS more appealing - they simply took the laziest, greediest route.
As it stands the reward system is now in place for a LTS to gain all of those perks, GREAT I'm glad to see that new LTS have something to look forward to. I feel badly that standard monthly Gold subscribers still have to do it the hard way, but that's is their choice is it not?
Well, ironically new LTS sales have nothing to look forward to - just a big bundle of goodies up front and a Zen stipend for the foreseeable future. As mentioned before though, I agree with you about the subscribers - especially those that are hitting their 1000-day milestone. They should be converted to LTS free. Cryptic won't do that though because they have no respect for their long-term customers.
Making a LTS have it's own segregation within itself from the reward system is a very bad idea.
Which is exactly what Cryptic did to the 1000-day LTS players - they made the fact that they'd reached 1000 days completely moot by giving everyone else the same stuff they've waited nearly three years for. There was no segregation prior to this - you bought the LTS, you waited for your rewards - just like everybody else.
But then again, I also believe that any kind of reward system is also a bad idea because it creates problems with other players.
The only problem it created prior to Cryptic's mismanagement of the whole issue was that inherently an LTS was unappealing - kinda obvious when the game is F2P. The should've come up with a better solution than this and they should've had it in place when F2P went live.
This was a smart business decision and sometimes those decisions people don't agree with. Would you rather less money gets into this game causing it to eventually shut down because of a lack of funds?
Any decision that alienates your long-standing customers is a poor one. And this wasn't considered - it was a ill-conceived cash-grab made just before the first of the veteran ships were due to be awarded. And please no more of the 'would you rather less money gets into the game' arguments - I've heard it way too many times and my answer is always the same:
Every two to three seconds, somebody wins a $250 lockbox ship - anything they're making from this disrespectful cash-grab is a drop in the bucket compared to the cash they're raking in from lockboxes.
Only you allow yourself to do it because you don't like the good business decisions that are used to make money in a game that you are being allowed to play in the first place.
Oh, I'm being allowed to play? Umm, yeah, I'm a consumer who bought the game just like a lot of people. If we aren't allowed to play the game it isn't a MMO or even a game is it...
Nothing has been done that is bad about this. I have seen multiple people in this thread talk about how this "veteran reward" system is no longer worth anything and that it's a solid F.U. to the player base who have been around for 3 years. Seriously, this whole argument and attitude about this is beyond childish.
Oh I get it, your opinion supersedes everyone elses. Talk about entitled. Not to mention myopic, egocentric-regressed, self-centered, self-indulgent, callow, narcissistic, unsophisticated and many other things. Probably the reason you feel the need to type in green. Have fun with yourself and your opinions.
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
When did Vet rewards have anything to do with time spent playing?
It's always just been time elapsed since a $200-300 purchase. An anniversary gift, not ANY indicator of anything earned.
As long as you don't get something LATE, who cares if other people get it early?
I GET the frustration over android variants.
I really don't get why anyone, Cryptic included, should respect time elapsed since purchase. Time SPENT? Sure. Time elapsed? Huh? Why?
Because these people took the plunge not knowing if the game would last 6 days let alone 1000. If they hadn't, I bet we wouldn't be on here talking.
Even cryptic are calling it 1000 day veteran reward? Why? What about the blurb cryptic say about rewarding long standing customers?
Some people are so thankful that cryptic made sto, that they don't pull them on anything.
See my Sig.
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
I never said that, Loyalty comes from people who actively support the game period. Money is the driving motivator for the gaming industry, not the players.
And as of F2P, nobody has to pay ever again full stop. Your point?
The point is that now there is absolutely no reason to even segregate the LTS. All there really is is a monthly stipend. Whoopdedoo. Almost everything is purely cosmetic.
That's not my problem - Cryptic created the rewards system to reward loyal subscribers and people that paid for LTS - and at the time they made it you had to be one or the other - there wasn't a third option.
Yes there was, you didn't play. But that's not the point.
What they should've done was come up with a proper plan for the veteran scheme - perhaps phasing it out and replacing it with something else - heck, they could've given out bonus Lobi with Zen/C-Store purchases that allowed Silver players to BUY vet rewards from the Lobi store whilst LTS/subscribers still got them for free (every hundred days).
And at what point would there be any incentive to have LTS with that option? Loss of money with that idea.
In fact, if they'd gone that route, they could have continued the vet rewards long past the 1000 days (or alternatively offered a Lobi stipend as well as the Zen with subs/LTS). There's no shortage of things they could've done to make the LTS more appealing - they simply took the laziest, greediest route.
They took the smart business route. What you consider lazy or greedy is what Capitalism is all about. Welcome to Online Gaming.
Well, ironically new LTS sales have nothing to look forward to - just a big bundle of goodies up front and a Zen stipend for the foreseeable future. As mentioned before though, I agree with you about the subscribers - especially those that are hitting their 1000-day milestone. They should be converted to LTS free. Cryptic won't do that though because they have no respect for their long-term customers.
Nor should they, it is their right as the owners and operators of the game.
Which is exactly what Cryptic did to the 1000-day LTS players - they made the fact that they'd reached 1000 days completely moot by giving everyone else the same stuff they've waited nearly three years for. There was no segregation prior to this - you bought the LTS, you waited for your rewards - just like everybody else.
No, there still is no segregation, the only segregation is the illusion of one that people have created with the thought that I waited 3 years to get this, now new people get it up front? REALITY CHECK: IT DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE NOW ANYWAYS! *gasp*
The only problem it created prior to Cryptic's mismanagement of the whole issue was that inherently an LTS was unappealing - kinda obvious when the game is F2P. The should've come up with a better solution than this and they should've had it in place when F2P went live.
First of all Cyptic only handles the technical and software aspects of the game. The management of the game falls under PWE and technically CBS don't confuse a development company for being in charge of game changing decisions. They only program it in when they are told to do so.
Any decision that alienates your long-standing customers is a poor one. And this wasn't considered - it was a ill-conceived cash-grab made just before the first of the veteran ships were due to be awarded. And please no more of the 'would you rather less money gets into the game' arguments - I've heard it way too many times and my answer is always the same:
And once again there is no alienation to the player base, once you figure it out that each upcoming reward wasn't even implemented at the inception of the game you might also realize just how idiotic this argument has been in the first place. There is only the illusion of alienation.
Every two to three seconds, somebody wins a $250 lockbox ship - anything they're making from this disrespectful cash-grab is a drop in the bucket compared to the cash they're raking in from lockboxes.
You might be surprised as much much less money they are making off the lock boxes taking into consideration how easy it is to obtain cash store point via dilithium and how easy it is to make EC in this game to purcahse them from people who buy the keys via dilithium. Like it or not, your argument is not nearly as sound as you might like to think.
I'm not so sure it's an issue of respect in this case but there are many examples in society that dictate this. Time is the one thing that we all have that is irreplaceable.
When did Vet rewards have anything to do with time spent playing?
It's always just been time elapsed since a $200-300 purchase. An anniversary gift, not ANY indicator of anything earned.
Well, to be fair luxandra's comment was longevity≠loyalty - the vet rewards were put in place primarily to reward subscribers and 'sweeten the deal' for LTS buyers but were based on a business model that more or less died the minute this game went F2P.
Whatever your opinion is on what the vet rewards signify, up until this point they'd been awarded every 100 days - it's taken 1000-day vets a long time to get here and this ship was always intended to be their 'thing' - irrespective of what you or anyone else personally believes, the evidence is there for all to see in the blog post, Tweets and even in the game text itself for the items.
Cryptic fumbled the ball shamefully on this one - and if I'm honest, I don't think it was them - I'd put the blame on PWE - it all happened too quickly for it to ever have been planned.
Mid-term LTS players got a nice surprise. Non LTS players got a good incentive to buy a subscription but in terms of customer service, we all lost.
You might be surprised as much much less money they are making off the lock boxes taking into consideration how easy it is to obtain cash store point via dilithium and how easy it is to make EC in this game to purcahse them from people who buy the keys via dilithium. Like it or not, your argument is not nearly as sound as you might like to think.
You're the one that's speculating. Plenty of people have done the math and posted the odds of winning one of those ships. You can see for yourself every time somebody wins one and the only place to get keys is the C-Store - Zen has to be spent and that Zen has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magically refreshed - people are buying it. Lots of it.
Obviously you aren't reading this thread let alone the rest of these forums.
You're right I have not payed attention to the base comments outside of this thread and the comments in this thread at all. What would I know about the uproar I have seen and how ridiculous it really is. What would I know about the underlying reasons behind most selfish behaviors that manifest themselves in gaming? Clearly you know me better than I do.
Oh, I'm being allowed to play? Umm, yeah, I'm a consumer who bought the game just like a lot of people. If we aren't allowed to play the game it isn't a MMO or even a game is it...
And yes, you are ALLOWED to play this game just like I am ALLOWED to play this game, you break rules and you can lose that ability. You adhere to policies and you are ALLOWED to access the product. That's what the Terms of Service and the End User Agreement License is about.
Oh I get it, your opinion supersedes everyone elses. Talk about entitled. Not to mention myopic, egocentric-regressed, self-centered, self-indulgent, callow, narcissistic, unsophisticated and many other things. Probably the reason you feel the need to type in green. Have fun with yourself and your opinions.
Your illusion of there being some kind of a segregation in the community due to this change is what is narcissistic. The point blank facts are this, there is absolutely nothing about the reward system that has changed aside from the LTS getting access to all of it all up front. And my response to that is fine. that's how it should be now that the game is F2P. There should be some kind of universal reward that all LTS have direct access to. This is it. Everyone else who isn't one will have to get there the long way. I hate reward systems, but it's here and this is actually about the only balanced way to appease any future LTS's in the first place because the basic benefits prior to this when the game went F2P was certainly not worth getting for a LTS.
I'm not so sure it's an issue of respect in this case but there are many examples in society that dictate this. Time is the one thing that we all have that is irreplaceable.
They did from launch until yesterday.
Incorrect, it was time spent subscribed. time spent playing has NEVER had anything to do with the reward system. If it had, I would wholly endorse THAT kind of reward system.
the vet rewards were put in place primarily to reward subscribers and 'sweeten the deal' for LTS buyers but were based on a business model that more or less died the minute this game went F2P.
I agree with the whole post except for the part above. Even after F2P hit you had to at least be a gold subscriber in order for your vet reward days to increment. Therefore, after F2P hit vet rewards were still incentive to go Gold or purchase a LTS.
You're the one that's speculating. Plenty of people have done the math and posted the odds of winning one of those ships. You can see for yourself every time somebody wins one and the only place to get keys is the C-Store - Zen has to be spent and that Zen has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magically refreshed - people are buying it. Lots of it.
I then direct you to free surveys and free offers page on earning free zen on top of stockpiling dilithium and buying points in bulk. I am not speculating seeing as how I know plenty of people who do exactly that. I can easily if I so choose get over 20 U.S.D. worth of points in about a week doing things like that if I so choose. Now with that being said, that's basically the ability to get 20 keys without spending an actual dime personally. PWE gets paid from the sponsors of those so no matter what, they still make money. Just not from us directly they get it from us indirectly. Now take into consideration the dilithium exchange with about 160 dilithium per point. Even with one toon on an 8k max per day in less than a month you can get 1k points worth from that. With 2 characters you can easily get more. Do the math with multiple people who do that and you can see how easily points can show up on the market with or without direct purchasing. It's not speculation when people do it.
Comments
You make quite a few assumptions, almost all of which I already addressed in my first post to you. The same arguments I already mentioned still apply to everything you just said here. You seem to want this out to be about money. Read the first sentence in my last post. I think most people agree this has boosted the value of an LTS purchase. But the boost is relative to the amount of time you already put into the game.
Just because you are missing their argument doesn't make what they are doing trivial. If it were trivial, you wouldn't see people posting about it constantly since the announcement. What I think you are trying to say is that the change benefits a majority of players, and the ones who are complaining should consider that in their arguments. But you shouldn't be telling them it's completely trivial and nonsense that they keep arguing against a change that you personally like and may even benefit from.
It's like watching all your co-workers get a 5k Christmas bonus and your boss telling you "Sorry you got yours already in your last pay increase." You could argue that it's trivial, you weren't entitled to it, and you didn't really lose anything. But it doesn't make you feel good, does it?
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
That's the whole point, they have not lost anything to begin with. Neither have I, the argument is about a double standard belief with the lifetime subscription. If everyone else aside from me who has had a Lifetime Subscription from the onset of the game somehow feel this has lessened the value of their LTS, then they are wrong. Our status has not changed at all. This is to motivate more poeple to buy one who thought about it before, that's what this whole thing has been about. Removing some of the perks just to satisfy a bruised ego about a title or some such is both wrong and idiotic period.
I thought you were done with this?
Seriously though - who's asking for anyone to have anything less? I paid for my LTS, I got my rewards over 1000 days - why shouldn't they?
When I bought my LTS I didn't get free C-Points or Zen. When I bought my LTS the game was a lot less developed than it is now.
In no way is someone buying an LTS now getting less than I did.
And in answer to your speculation, I wouldn't have a problem if someone's 'veteran' status was calculated from when they first set up an account (Silver, Gold right from the start, whatever).
In fact, I don't have an issue with anyone buying an LTS now and getting their titles and goodies immediately - I have an issue with Cryptic - specifically how they've handled this and what it says about their opinion of their longest-standing supporters.
And as if further validation of my previous comments were necessary, the moderators are busily consolidating all these threads into one easily locked and forgotten one - just like nothing ever happened...
This is a -far- cry from what SoE did with SW:G. There was a post (I'd have to find it) where someone said "why not reward the people who are willing to dish out the extra money for buying zen and using it instead of x". The reply was "Yea, something should be done for people who have spent extra money on the game".
This is the conclusion. Rather than say "Ok, here all you non-lifetime gamers, get this benefit for spending x-hundred of dollars on the game" they said "Here, all you LTS players, we're gonna give you this benefit as a thank you for being LTS members!"
Honestly, you should be happy they did this and not the other.
Once again you are judging their opinion of their player base as fact. There is only one fact here, so try to keep up this time. This is about being able to give an incentive to some players to spend more money and actually feel like they are getting something worthwhile in return. The fact that you somehow think that everyone have to wait 1000 days just to reap the rewards of this system under a lifetime subscription now that the game has gone F2P and has been for almost a year now is idiotic. You are literally saying that your lifetime subscription is worth more than those who have had one for less time regardless if they spent more or less money on this game than you overall. Are you nuts or simply delusional? What this change actually does is allow for lifetime subscriptions to all share ALL (read that carefully) ALL of the aspects that are in this game minus what you have to purchase from the cash shop. And you never HAVE (read that word too.) HAVE to spend another dime on this game ever again. Frankly, I can't think of a better incentive to give potentially new LTS than this, telling them they still have to wait one two three years just to get these rewards will give absolutely nothing in terms of additional money flow. You are no less important than you were before so stop trying to throw a pity party for yourself that somehow you have been given a middle finger. You haven't. A real middle finger would have been to tell you that you have to keep spending money in order to earn these rewards in the first place after dropping 299.00 U.S.D. Get over yourself already, I'm done being nice.
You keep saying this a double standard, I'm not following your logic. Please explain.
Again, I don't see anyone arguing that this has lessened the value of their LTS purchase. I also don't see people arguing that some LTS should get all rewards while others shouldn't. The argument is that the system should reward longevity. What they are unhappy about is Cryptic has taken away a system that once made it an honor to have purchased your LTS at launch (or subbed for as long) and turned you into another name in the bucket.
Trivializing people because this isn't important to you is inconsiderate to others who perceive that is something valuable. It doesn't matter if you or I agree on the value of that perception, calling them idiots because of it isn't justified.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Re-read my post - I said no such thing - I even said I'm happy for the players that are buying into this and getting what they want out of it.
Once more, my issue is Cryptic, their handling of the matter and what it says about the value they've put on their long-term customers.
There were many, many ways they could have made the LTS more appealing - but instead they chose the quickest, greediest, most disrespectful option - they didn't even take the time to change the wording on the ship descriptions to 'as a Lifetime Subscriber' - all any of us is to them is wallet waiting to be plundered - we're not customers - just suckers.
Pay attention then, because I am only going to say this one last time. Longevity DOES NOT DETERMINE LOYALTY. All of you somehow feeling that this reward system being changed for a Lifetime Subscriber is somehow unfair need to look at this from the actual facts. A Lifetime Subscriber no matter when they subscribed NEVER HAS TO PAY FOR THIS GAME EVER AGAIN. Now then, with that said to give an incentive to purchase the 299.00 U.S.D. package which gives you full access to absolutely everything in this game minus cash shop items. With the exception of course of the Borg Bridge Officer and the Liberated Borg Playable Captain, there is no more obligation to have to spend one more cent on this game as a result. Now, you want to sit there and tell me that Longevity should be the prevailing factor in a reward system on what is now a F2P game with no actual financial obligation? Before the F2P conversion I would have agreed with you. However with the F2P platform that argument is no longer something that I can support with any kind of enthusiasm because it would create a double standard for the reward system.
As it stands the reward system is now in place for a LTS to gain all of those perks, GREAT I'm glad to see that new LTS have something to look forward to. I feel badly that standard monthly Gold subscribers still have to do it the hard way, but that's is their choice is it not? They still contribute the same if not more than me to this game and I salute them for it. Making a LTS have it's own segregation within itself from the reward system is a very bad idea. But then again, I also believe that any kind of reward system is also a bad idea because it creates problems with other players. However that is the problem with a F2P game with or without a reward system, money gives additional perks. You don't segregate the perks when the money cost is the same, it doesn't create money flow for the people who run the game in the first place. This was a smart business decision and sometimes those decisions people don't agree with. Would you rather less money gets into this game causing it to eventually shut down because of a lack of funds?
Oh really? I direct you to what you said in your last post.
By all means, tell me how you did not say what you said. Over 1000 days, why shouldn't they? That's your entitlement kicking in right there. So please by all means tell me how you did not say what you said in that.
Man, you have so many issues it's unbelievable. Are you a dev in disguise? I think I prefer those with "Entitlement" issues over someone who likes to give out orders.
Thought you left anyway? Do you desperately need to get your faulty logic across?
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
It's not faulty logic Solomace it's called reality about gaming and business. They have not shafted anyone with a Lifetime Subscription. People are enraged about something that is completely trivial, why? If they got their cosmetic rewards already, then it doesn't matter if the new players get theirs. This is an issue of entitlement saying that "I'm more special than you because I got to this game and pumped the money in first." Get over yourselves to the people who feel that way. You're a lifetime subscriber, great, so are many other people. Enjoy the perks that it brings.
I thought you were done
Anyway, I don't recall anyone ever claiming to be unique. I think you are letting preconceptions cloud your judgement and logic here. Obviously a lot of players are lifers, derp, I play with them all the time. Second, like other are pointing out, you are saying people are upset because of 'status' which is not the case. At least not for me because I can't speak for anyone else. The issue at hand is a failure on Cryptic's behalf due to a corruption of greed (it's a cash grab). The issue here is 1000 days is 1000 days. Doing time is doing time. I think you are the one advocating the double standard and have a bad case of entitlement because you think you should get 'something for nothing'. I don't understand how you think they are 'getting short changed' because if they are lifers they will be around for 1000 days and will eventually get what's coming to them. Good. I am all for more people playing the game. What is also scaring me and a lot of other people and hence the rage is that an unprecedented move like this by Cryptic could lead one to believe this game won't be around in 1000 days, because like I said, if they are lifers they will eventually get to 1000 days and get what's coming to them. It nothing to do with a title or a ship or a monkey. 1000 days is 1000 days. With that I leave you with "Your peanut butter is in my chocolate!" "No your chocolate is in my peanut butter!" Seems to be where this is all heading. Great move by Cryptic to once again divide the player base instead of bring us together.
There is absolutely nothing they have done with this that divides the player base. Only you allow yourself to do it because you don't like the good business decisions that are used to make money in a game that you are being allowed to play in the first place. Nothing has been done that is bad about this. I have seen multiple people in this thread talk about how this "veteran reward" system is no longer worth anything and that it's a solid F.U. to the player base who have been around for 3 years. Seriously, this whole argument and attitude about this is beyond childish. MMO gaming is about making money. Not everyone will agree with the decisions that are made to do it. But turning around and somehow thinking that they don't care about the player base is moronic.
EDIT: The only group out there that has shown they don't care about their player base is SOE during their TRIBBLE up with SWG and breaking the law.
Why is time worthy of respect?
Effort, sure.
But time is just delivery time.
As long as you don't get something LATE, who cares if other people get it early?
I GET the frustration over android variants.
I really don't get why anyone, Cryptic included, should respect time elapsed since purchase. Time SPENT? Sure. Time elapsed? Huh? Why?
Still here I see.
Why are you typing in green btw. Do you feel you have to be different? Issues?
Except of course, when it does. Admittedly, there are probably lots of LTS players that haven't logged in for months - then there's those of us that've have been here the whole time. If the time you've spent playing (and paying) doesn't equate to loyalty then what does? A one-off $240 payment? Seriously?
And as of F2P, nobody has to pay ever again full stop. Your point?
That's not my problem - Cryptic created the rewards system to reward loyal subscribers and people that paid for LTS - and at the time they made it you had to be one or the other - there wasn't a third option.
What they should've done was come up with a proper plan for the veteran scheme - perhaps phasing it out and replacing it with something else - heck, they could've given out bonus Lobi with Zen/C-Store purchases that allowed Silver players to BUY vet rewards from the Lobi store whilst LTS/subscribers still got them for free (every hundred days).
In fact, if they'd gone that route, they could have continued the vet rewards long past the 1000 days (or alternatively offered a Lobi stipend as well as the Zen with subs/LTS). There's no shortage of things they could've done to make the LTS more appealing - they simply took the laziest, greediest route.
Well, ironically new LTS sales have nothing to look forward to - just a big bundle of goodies up front and a Zen stipend for the foreseeable future. As mentioned before though, I agree with you about the subscribers - especially those that are hitting their 1000-day milestone. They should be converted to LTS free. Cryptic won't do that though because they have no respect for their long-term customers.
Which is exactly what Cryptic did to the 1000-day LTS players - they made the fact that they'd reached 1000 days completely moot by giving everyone else the same stuff they've waited nearly three years for. There was no segregation prior to this - you bought the LTS, you waited for your rewards - just like everybody else.
The only problem it created prior to Cryptic's mismanagement of the whole issue was that inherently an LTS was unappealing - kinda obvious when the game is F2P. The should've come up with a better solution than this and they should've had it in place when F2P went live.
Any decision that alienates your long-standing customers is a poor one. And this wasn't considered - it was a ill-conceived cash-grab made just before the first of the veteran ships were due to be awarded. And please no more of the 'would you rather less money gets into the game' arguments - I've heard it way too many times and my answer is always the same:
Every two to three seconds, somebody wins a $250 lockbox ship - anything they're making from this disrespectful cash-grab is a drop in the bucket compared to the cash they're raking in from lockboxes.
Obviously you aren't reading this thread let alone the rest of these forums.
Oh, I'm being allowed to play? Umm, yeah, I'm a consumer who bought the game just like a lot of people. If we aren't allowed to play the game it isn't a MMO or even a game is it...
Oh I get it, your opinion supersedes everyone elses. Talk about entitled. Not to mention myopic, egocentric-regressed, self-centered, self-indulgent, callow, narcissistic, unsophisticated and many other things. Probably the reason you feel the need to type in green. Have fun with yourself and your opinions.
OMG! Just saw this - I love it! Hats off to you sir!
When did Vet rewards have anything to do with time spent playing?
It's always just been time elapsed since a $200-300 purchase. An anniversary gift, not ANY indicator of anything earned.
Because these people took the plunge not knowing if the game would last 6 days let alone 1000. If they hadn't, I bet we wouldn't be on here talking.
Even cryptic are calling it 1000 day veteran reward? Why? What about the blurb cryptic say about rewarding long standing customers?
Some people are so thankful that cryptic made sto, that they don't pull them on anything.
See my Sig.
You might be surprised as much much less money they are making off the lock boxes taking into consideration how easy it is to obtain cash store point via dilithium and how easy it is to make EC in this game to purcahse them from people who buy the keys via dilithium. Like it or not, your argument is not nearly as sound as you might like to think.
I'm not so sure it's an issue of respect in this case but there are many examples in society that dictate this. Time is the one thing that we all have that is irreplaceable.
They did from launch until yesterday.
Well, to be fair luxandra's comment was longevity≠loyalty - the vet rewards were put in place primarily to reward subscribers and 'sweeten the deal' for LTS buyers but were based on a business model that more or less died the minute this game went F2P.
Whatever your opinion is on what the vet rewards signify, up until this point they'd been awarded every 100 days - it's taken 1000-day vets a long time to get here and this ship was always intended to be their 'thing' - irrespective of what you or anyone else personally believes, the evidence is there for all to see in the blog post, Tweets and even in the game text itself for the items.
Cryptic fumbled the ball shamefully on this one - and if I'm honest, I don't think it was them - I'd put the blame on PWE - it all happened too quickly for it to ever have been planned.
Mid-term LTS players got a nice surprise. Non LTS players got a good incentive to buy a subscription but in terms of customer service, we all lost.
You're the one that's speculating. Plenty of people have done the math and posted the odds of winning one of those ships. You can see for yourself every time somebody wins one and the only place to get keys is the C-Store - Zen has to be spent and that Zen has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magically refreshed - people are buying it. Lots of it.
Your illusion of there being some kind of a segregation in the community due to this change is what is narcissistic. The point blank facts are this, there is absolutely nothing about the reward system that has changed aside from the LTS getting access to all of it all up front. And my response to that is fine. that's how it should be now that the game is F2P. There should be some kind of universal reward that all LTS have direct access to. This is it. Everyone else who isn't one will have to get there the long way. I hate reward systems, but it's here and this is actually about the only balanced way to appease any future LTS's in the first place because the basic benefits prior to this when the game went F2P was certainly not worth getting for a LTS.
Incorrect, it was time spent subscribed. time spent playing has NEVER had anything to do with the reward system. If it had, I would wholly endorse THAT kind of reward system.
I agree with the whole post except for the part above. Even after F2P hit you had to at least be a gold subscriber in order for your vet reward days to increment. Therefore, after F2P hit vet rewards were still incentive to go Gold or purchase a LTS.
I then direct you to free surveys and free offers page on earning free zen on top of stockpiling dilithium and buying points in bulk. I am not speculating seeing as how I know plenty of people who do exactly that. I can easily if I so choose get over 20 U.S.D. worth of points in about a week doing things like that if I so choose. Now with that being said, that's basically the ability to get 20 keys without spending an actual dime personally. PWE gets paid from the sponsors of those so no matter what, they still make money. Just not from us directly they get it from us indirectly. Now take into consideration the dilithium exchange with about 160 dilithium per point. Even with one toon on an 8k max per day in less than a month you can get 1k points worth from that. With 2 characters you can easily get more. Do the math with multiple people who do that and you can see how easily points can show up on the market with or without direct purchasing. It's not speculation when people do it.