really? how would you know that? what we know is the STO team has limited staff on the pay roll... do you really believe they have spare dev, graphic designer, FX guy, programmers etc just working on filling up the C STORES? at best the C store team is composed of a few members of each team and they meet up once in a while to discuss which new items it would be good to add...
a proof would be Capt logan...who worked on the nebula/excelsior as well as some free in game contents...
and i would not be surprised the staff who worked on both in game bridges and sold in the C stores are the same persons...
I don t believe a second that the C store items would not be here if there was no revenue from it...why would they add something free in game when they can sell it as they know people want them.
they just pull away some people from the various core teams to work on C store items or just to fill in their work loads when the core job is done or delayed... i wonder why...:rolleyes:
The developers have been stressing that the C-store items are funded by the C-store alone and that if there was no C-store, the content would not be there. See Zinc's interview. Thinking that they're seperate teams is conjecture admittedly, but a logical conclusion. All C-store critisicm has been funneled into the C-store section of the forums for the C-store team to look at, mentioned many times by the various GMs. dStahl, the executive producer, has no control over the prices of the items put on the C-store, nor can he decide to add the ability to obtain the C-store items in-game arbitrarily. He stated that he had to push for it. This all says to me that the C-store team is a seperate team with it's own decision making process and developers.
You say CapnLogan worked on the Nebula and Excelsior. Where is this stated? The impression I got is that he was working on the other ships, he did not state that he was working on these. The Excelsior is, especially missing his touch. There are niggling details that do not seem absolutely right, which would not happen had CapnLogan designed the ship. Perhaps he had some input into the ship design but I doubt he was actually working on it.
Blablabla...?
i admit i was too lazy to look into the forum to prove it... but today's brought me fortune
I built a customizable skeleton for the ship, so in the future there will likely be variant pieces available. Not able to confirm or deny this yet since it's not really up to me to decide.
Axe Dstahl!
He s talking about the Nebula of course...feel free to read the previous posts in the same thread
I know nothing about the stats, that's up to the game designers and I rarely coordinate with them...
About the excelsior: I didn't make the ship, this was MTattersall. I haven't had much of a chance to talk to him about it... if I do though I'll update you all.
so yes i was wrong Caplogan did not work on the excelsior... he only worked on the Nebula... my mistake
as you can check by yourself both of them(caplogan and MTattersall)worked on C store items and core game ones... i m telling you there s no specific C store team... Do you start to understand how this works?
it s a one team business, they meet up, Mr Stahl leading(he s in charge after all) and they make the decision to create some stuff for the C store by allocating some time apart from creating stuff for the core game. theoretically if there was no C store we would only get core game stuff...but they would not get any extra money... and i thought i was naive...
so yes i was wrong Caplogan did not work on the excelsior... he only worked on the Nebula... my mistake
as you can check by yourself both of them(caplogan and MTattersall)worked on C store items and core game ones... i m telling you there s no specific C store team... Do you start to understand how this works?
it s a one team business, they meet up, Mr Stahl leading(he s in charge after all) and they make the decision to create some stuff for the C store by allocating some time apart from creating stuff for the core game. theoretically if there was no C store we would only get core game stuff...but they would not get any extra money... and i thought i was naive...
Fine.So I was wrong on that one point. How d'you know the other people who worked on it are all part of the core dev team though? We really don't know their structure except what's been told to us.
In any case, The point was made for people to consider the fairness of what they may be demanding. If they can come up with a convincing argument as to how the ships can be put in-game for free accounting for the other factors then that's perfectly fine.
Instead all there is are posts saying "It should be free because we should have had it."
Fine.So I was wrong on that one point. How d'you know the other people who worked on it are all part of the core dev team though? We really don't know their structure except what's been told to us.
In any case, The point was made for people to consider the fairness of what they may be demanding. If they can come up with a convincing argument as to how the ships can be put in-game for free accounting for the other factors then that's perfectly fine.
Instead all there is are posts saying "It should be free because we should have had it."
Hi mate, i just hope you did not take my post as a personal attack, a lot of people on this forum assumed exactly the same thing as Mr Stahl and other Cryptic staff have been using the C store team wording to avoid direct personal confrontation and/or to make the team looks bigger...
Would i know if other Core team members are working on C store stuff... i would not but my common sense and life experience are saying yes... there was another post yesterday from another Dev saying she/he was the only writter and was cross training for something else... it s all about maximizing staff... they even found a way to save on QA...asking players to test their product on tribble... i m telling you the 500 more bugs found on tribble over a week end saved them a lot of time, man power and ultamately money.
I would not be surprise if the Dev are becoming QA tester when a season or patch is finished and if all the forum moderators are also GM answering tickets under different usernames. I can recall a post from one of the dev talking about Zinc having various usernames on this forum... once again it s all about the appearance... how would you feel if your game was made by only 15 persons? it just look more serious to appear about 50...
Finally, regarding the C store items... i think the biggest issue is the lack of core game content... people are bored pretty quickly (even Mr Stahl stated he would like the game at the one year mark the way it should have been at launch)
As today players don t have much to do in game but are still charged full price for an unfinished product. W hile waiting to get a better game we are offered to buy some brand new designed items which could go into the game instead and get a better core product. I can totally understand why people are so upset with the C store and the STO team. Maybe they shoould focus on filling up the game first...then they can try to sell us whatever they want...
let s take a simple example to illustrate the situation...
you go to your local food shop and ask at the counter a dozen of donuts...she gives you a box with only 6 in it but charges you for 12. At the same time she offers you to buy some yummy canddies... Now you repeat this scenario every month... what would you think?... How about you fill up my box of donuts first then i ll see if i want to buy something else...No?
my point of view about the 2 new ships... i have no problem having the normal version of each in game and the superpowered ones in the C store as a paying alternative to the future tier 5 upgrade ships(galaxy, defiant, intrepid) we are going to have access in game at VA level.. i think this would be a very good compromise
the 2 addtional slots per character is just plain...
Hi mate, i just hope you did not take my post as a personal attack, a lot of people on this forum assumed exactly the same thing as Mr Stahl and other Cryptic staff have been using the C store team wording to avoid direct personal confrontation and/or to make the team looks bigger...
Would i know if other Core team members are working on C store stuff... i would not but my common sense and life experience are saying yes... there was another post yesterday from another Dev saying she/he was the only writter and was cross training for something else... it s all about maximizing staff... they even found a way to save on QA...asking players to test their product on tribble... i m telling you the 500 more bugs found on tribble over a week end saved them a lot of time, man power and ultamately money.
I would not be surprise if the Dev are becoming QA tester when a season or patch is finished and if all the forum moderators are also GM answering tickets under different usernames. I can recall a post from one of the dev talking about Zinc having various usernames on this forum... once again it s all about the appearance... how would you feel if your game was made by only 15 persons? it just look more serious to appear about 50...
Finally, regarding the C store items... i think the biggest issue is the lack of core game content... people are bored pretty quickly (even Mr Stahl stated he would like the game at the one year mark the way it should have been at launch)
As today players don t have much to do in game but are still charged full price for an unfinished product. W hile waiting to get a better game we are offered to buy some brand new designed items which could go into the game instead and get a better core product. I can totally understand why people are so upset with the C store and the STO team. Maybe they shoould focus on filling up the game first...then they can try to sell us whatever they want...
let s take a simple example to illustrate the situation...
you go to your local food shop and ask at the counter a dozen of donuts...she gives you a box with only 6 in it but charges you for 12. At the same time she offers you to buy some yummy canddies... Now you repeat this scenario every month... what would you think?... How about you fill up my box of donuts first then i ll see if i want to buy something else...No?
my point of view about the 2 new ships... i have no problem having the normal version of each in game and the superpowered ones in the C store as a paying alternative to the future tier 5 upgrade ships(galaxy, defiant, intrepid) we are going to have access in game at VA level.. i think this would be a very good compromise
the 2 addtional slots per character is just plain...
Hope this help...
No. I definitely don't take it as a personal attack. You do raise some interesting points. I get the point about not believing everything you hear and I was hasty in jumping to conclusions.
The part I have issues with is the part where we're waiting for an unfinished game. That really should not be the case. We paid for a game and we got what we paid for. Players made the choice to buy the game. If the choice was a bad one, then they can complain about that choice and try to get their money back. Or they can take it as a loss and stop playing the game, and in the process stop paying Cryptic more money over time. But either way, whether good or bad, the choice was made and if a person is still here, that's a consequence of their choice. I agree with the fact that there is a serious lack of content in the game and it needs more added to make it the game that it should be. Cryptic is working to improve the game and we as players, reward them by continuous subscriptions to the game. If we don't feel that we're getting enough to keep us in the game, we're free to leave if we like.
Now you say that the game is unfinished and you want them to add new things to the game that they've developed and they intend to charge for, good or bad I will not debate. This is, in essence, trying to make Cryptic take responsibility for the choice you made previously, i.e. to buy the game.
The whole argument that this is content that should have been in previously doesn't even make sense because if this really was a make or break thing, the argument should have come up at the start of the game, if it was so important to the game. This really isn't content. Content involves gameplay mechanics, missions or things like that. Things that without which, the game would really be incomplete. This is a variant of something that everyone already gets in-game i.e. ships. The new ships weren't promised at the start of the game, no one knew if they were going to be added let alone when. Now suddenly, there's a hole in the game and everyone needs to have it to round out the game? The things people wanted were for more missions, more end game, more mechanics, more things to do. They weren't complaining that much about the lack of the Nebula or Excelsior. The best part is that this still won't fill the percieved hole in the game. New ships don't help the problem of there being nowhere to fly.
I get that people have different perspectives and I get that it's easy to feel cheated out of something that was assumed to be given. Thing is it wasn't promised and if you're unhappy about it, there are recourses. There's your choice not to support the introduction of the ships by not buying it. There's the choice not to support the direction the game is going by ceasing to play it and pay for it. Those are the choices you have available and if you choose to take them, people will respect you for it. And if you do that and leave feedback as to why you're doing it on the forums for the developers, perhaps it will change in time. These are called feedback forums after all. That is what feedback is. Instead, people start crying, begging, pleading, threatening and all sorts of other measures to try and force what they want to happen. That way won't work. All it does is destroy their credibility to the point where no one will believe them Especially if people do an about face and buy the very things they were campaigning against.
Your analogy of donuts was interesting. I'll offer another in return. See it as an savings account in a bank. You put money in because the bank tells you there's a high interest rate. And you continue to invest in that account, a small percentage of your salary each month. The bank also offers you additional services like a debit card on the account for $5/month. Then the BLR drops, so the interest rate does too So instead of telling the bank you want to close your account, or keep investing in the account, hoping it will change for the better, you tell the bank you want a them to waive the debit card fee. Will it happen, even if you beg and plead and threaten to withdraw?
As to your doughnuts, perhaps a better analogy would be to say that you bought a dozen doughnuts, she gave you a dozen doughnuts but they tasted like paper. Do you then buy the candies that she offers? And is it her fault for selling you the papery doughnuts in the first place or her fault if you choose to buy the candies and they don't taste that good either? Should she give you the candies free because the doughnuts didn't taste well? Do you choose to go back to that shop again to buy more doughnuts, hoping that the baker will have improved them over time? Or would sticking the candies onto the doughnuts change anything even though they always taste like paper?
It's human nature to try and shift the responsibility for our choices onto someone else. What makes us mature is that we understand that what happens to us, ultimately is what we do to ourselves. I can understand where people are coming from, but I can hardly condone it.
You see, you can compromise. You at least gave Cryptic an option as to how you could be pleased. They may or may not take it and that's their choice. The consequence of their choice is theirs to deal with. This is at least better than the people who say "GImme, or else!".
The part I have issues with is the part where we're waiting for an unfinished game. That really should not be the case. We paid for a game and we got what we paid for. Players made the choice to buy the game. If the choice was a bad one, then they can complain about that choice and try to get their money back. Or they can take it as a loss and stop playing the game, and in the process stop paying Cryptic more money over time. But either way, whether good or bad, the choice was made and if a person is still here, that's a consequence of their choice. I agree with the fact that there is a serious lack of content in the game and it needs more added to make it the game that it should be. Cryptic is working to improve the game and we as players, reward them by continuous subscriptions to the game. If we don't feel that we're getting enough to keep us in the game, we're free to leave if we like.
Just this bit.
We keep revisiting this, and as far as it goes, I understand your point of view, but only in so far as buying the game.
We installed our game and logged on, and I'd doubt many people had many problems in the first hours of play. By Commander you maybe have a few raised eyebrows at the fact that the exploration of the galaxy just isn't that at all, and it's really just a handheld, regurgitated mission with a different backdrop.
You may also (like me) excuse the predictable missions of "kill 5 groups of Romulan ships" because when you justify it in your own mind you think, well is that so different really to "go get me 10 boar skins"?
Remember, this is all still in the threshold of initial purchase.
So remember, this is not a single player game. It's not fire and forget, where if you don't like your purchase you just uninstall and call it lesson learned.
If you took your time in STO you may be at 29 days now. So new month's subscription hits, and you're like "ok no problem, still a way to go and we've had the STF videos and the posts by Cryptic saying what's coming and even though I'm a little bored right now, and don't bother to even read my quest text anymore, it's going to get better."
You get pretty far on in Captain as a tac (for ex.) and think "hey, it could be my class that's a bit bland. I'll try science."
Go make a science officer, pretty well since you've learned a bit on your first go. Start up, and it's the same. Exactly the same. From mission 1, you don't read the quest text sionce there's no need. No divergence in paths from 1 class to the next, not class specific missions, and you're still killing 5 of these or scanning 5 of those.
Sigh...ok, I'm a fed. Klingons are the pvp faction, I'll go try that and get some excitement going.
Nope. No one is playing. If the needed number of Klingons is up on the queue, the feds aren't having any. If enough of your compadres are in the queue, the Klings aren't willing. What's going on here?
Ohhhhh, we have fed vs fed now. Those that couldn't handle the Kling cloaks have decided it's better to fight each other.
Nope. Feds got tired of just fighting each other, but in the interim, Klings got tired of waitjn g for feds and all left the game. This sux.
Nevermind, you say. Cryptic are bringing a load of stuff really soon; just look at the engineer reports. New ships, FDC, interiors, all that good stuff.
Tribble testing arrives on the new stuff.
Now I am one who likes to be able to bug report to make sure things are ok, but at the same time, on a game with very little to do, I don't want to use it all up before it even gets to live. So I have a quick look at interiors, do a first contact mission and leave it at that. TBH that's pretty much the extent of the new content anyway.
Oh, I went and checked out my new clothing options on my klingon. Nice! Now I can stand around with still nothing to do. Oh I forgot, the new Klingon episodes. Well, it takes like 2 weeks to level a fed character so how long will the Kling missions last me?
On top of that, the new ships that are coming; well they're going to the C store, not the game. Despite what you think, they are content. They're cosmetic content, but content nonetheless.
So what do we have to show now, considering money has been spent beyond the original purchase of the game? Nothing.
Ok we have interiors. I can now dance in engineering, sickbay, corridors or the lab, rather than just on my bridge.
With all the new additions, if I start a new character I could still level it in just over a week. I can go the FDC route if I want, and get a shiny new uniform, but I won't use that uniform, since to do so, I need a new slot. You can guess where that is.
As far as consequences for your own purchases go, I totally agree. Man cannot live on promises alone, and as a result, I have 1 day remaining to talk to you here.
edit- one other thing, people stick with and endure because of the IP. A Star Trek MMO/ What a dream! Many will keep pumping that cash every month just on the off chance it does realise its potential. As sad as I am to realise it isn't going to happen, I finally faced facts.
No. I definitely don't take it as a personal attack. You do raise some interesting points. I get the point about not believing everything you hear and I was hasty in jumping to conclusions.
The part I have issues with is the part where we're waiting for an unfinished game. That really should not be the case. We paid for a game and we got what we paid for. Players made the choice to buy the game. If the choice was a bad one, then they can complain about that choice and try to get their money back. Or they can take it as a loss and stop playing the game, and in the process stop paying Cryptic more money over time. But either way, whether good or bad, the choice was made and if a person is still here, that's a consequence of their choice. I agree with the fact that there is a serious lack of content in the game and it needs more added to make it the game that it should be. Cryptic is working to improve the game and we as players, reward them by continuous subscriptions to the game. If we don't feel that we're getting enough to keep us in the game, we're free to leave if we like.
Now you say that the game is unfinished and you want them to add new things to the game that they've developed and they intend to charge for, good or bad I will not debate. This is, in essence, trying to make Cryptic take responsibility for the choice you made previously, i.e. to buy the game.
The whole argument that this is content that should have been in previously doesn't even make sense because if this really was a make or break thing, the argument should have come up at the start of the game, if it was so important to the game. This really isn't content. Content involves gameplay mechanics, missions or things like that. Things that without which, the game would really be incomplete. This is a variant of something that everyone already gets in-game i.e. ships. The new ships weren't promised at the start of the game, no one knew if they were going to be added let alone when. Now suddenly, there's a hole in the game and everyone needs to have it to round out the game? The things people wanted were for more missions, more end game, more mechanics, more things to do. They weren't complaining that much about the lack of the Nebula or Excelsior. The best part is that this still won't fill the percieved hole in the game. New ships don't help the problem of there being nowhere to fly.
I get that people have different perspectives and I get that it's easy to feel cheated out of something that was assumed to be given. Thing is it wasn't promised and if you're unhappy about it, there are recourses. There's your choice not to support the introduction of the ships by not buying it. There's the choice not to support the direction the game is going by ceasing to play it and pay for it. Those are the choices you have available and if you choose to take them, people will respect you for it. And if you do that and leave feedback as to why you're doing it on the forums for the developers, perhaps it will change in time. These are called feedback forums after all. That is what feedback is. Instead, people start crying, begging, pleading, threatening and all sorts of other measures to try and force what they want to happen. That way won't work. All it does is destroy their credibility to the point where no one will believe them Especially if people do an about face and buy the very things they were campaigning against.
Your analogy of donuts was interesting. I'll offer another in return. See it as an savings account in a bank. You put money in because the bank tells you there's a high interest rate. And you continue to invest in that account, a small percentage of your salary each month. The bank also offers you additional services like a debit card on the account for $5/month. Then the BLR drops, so the interest rate does too So instead of telling the bank you want to close your account, or keep investing in the account, hoping it will change for the better, you tell the bank you want a them to waive the debit card fee. Will it happen, even if you beg and plead and threaten to withdraw?
As to your doughnuts, perhaps a better analogy would be to say that you bought a dozen doughnuts, she gave you a dozen doughnuts but they tasted like paper. Do you then buy the candies that she offers? And is it her fault for selling you the papery doughnuts in the first place or her fault if you choose to buy the candies and they don't taste that good either? Should she give you the candies free because the doughnuts didn't taste well? Do you choose to go back to that shop again to buy more doughnuts, hoping that the baker will have improved them over time? Or would sticking the candies onto the doughnuts change anything even though they always taste like paper?
It's human nature to try and shift the responsibility for our choices onto someone else. What makes us mature is that we understand that what happens to us, ultimately is what we do to ourselves. I can understand where people are coming from, but I can hardly condone it.
You see, you can compromise. You at least gave Cryptic an option as to how you could be pleased. They may or may not take it and that's their choice. The consequence of their choice is theirs to deal with. This is at least better than the people who say "GImme, or else!".
you right, i agree with you i should have spelled Doughnut properly.... it was early in the morning (PST) and was working night shift... my fault
more seriously there s no point to keep beating this dead horse... the C store items are just drops into a cup full of unsatisfied players, the C Store is not the cause of the problem.... the problem is to pay full price for a half finished game and the only option available to make it better is to buy additional stuff. i believe most people want a better game with more content, end game, closer to trek lore, real exploration etc... before having to buy fluffy stuff. So they can have fun playing it
Now looking at the last few month on the forums... Cryptic could have thrown most of the C store items (races, bridges, uniforms etc) as in game unlocks, mission rewards etc, mainly to appease players complaints about the core game weaknesses and asking us to be a bit more patient for more content and game improvements to happen down the road... open minded players would have acknowledged and understood the situation. THIS would have been great customers services as well....Now how many bashing threads would have been created if they did that...??? very little... but they went a different way...and at the end, we all pay the price... they seem to loose customers and there are less players on the server...i guess the RP guys get a real feel of space emptiness nowadays....
Just this bit.
We keep revisiting this, and as far as it goes, I understand your point of view, but only in so far as buying the game.
We installed our game and logged on, and I'd doubt many people had many problems in the first hours of play. By Commander you maybe have a few raised eyebrows at the fact that the exploration of the galaxy just isn't that at all, and it's really just a handheld, regurgitated mission with a different backdrop.
You may also (like me) excuse the predictable missions of "kill 5 groups of Romulan ships" because when you justify it in your own mind you think, well is that so different really to "go get me 10 boar skins"?
Remember, this is all still in the threshold of initial purchase.
So remember, this is not a single player game. It's not fire and forget, where if you don't like your purchase you just uninstall and call it lesson learned.
If you took your time in STO you may be at 29 days now. So new month's subscription hits, and you're like "ok no problem, still a way to go and we've had the STF videos and the posts by Cryptic saying what's coming and even though I'm a little bored right now, and don't bother to even read my quest text anymore, it's going to get better."
You get pretty far on in Captain as a tac (for ex.) and think "hey, it could be my class that's a bit bland. I'll try science."
Go make a science officer, pretty well since you've learned a bit on your first go. Start up, and it's the same. Exactly the same. From mission 1, you don't read the quest text sionce there's no need. No divergence in paths from 1 class to the next, not class specific missions, and you're still killing 5 of these or scanning 5 of those.
Sigh...ok, I'm a fed. Klingons are the pvp faction, I'll go try that and get some excitement going.
Nope. No one is playing. If the needed number of Klingons is up on the queue, the feds aren't having any. If enough of your compadres are in the queue, the Klings aren't willing. What's going on here?
Ohhhhh, we have fed vs fed now. Those that couldn't handle the Kling cloaks have decided it's better to fight each other.
Nope. Feds got tired of just fighting each other, but in the interim, Klings got tired of waitjn g for feds and all left the game. This sux.
Nevermind, you say. Cryptic are bringing a load of stuff really soon; just look at the engineer reports. New ships, FDC, interiors, all that good stuff.
Tribble testing arrives on the new stuff.
Now I am one who likes to be able to bug report to make sure things are ok, but at the same time, on a game with very little to do, I don't want to use it all up before it even gets to live. So I have a quick look at interiors, do a first contact mission and leave it at that. TBH that's pretty much the extent of the new content anyway.
Oh, I went and checked out my new clothing options on my klingon. Nice! Now I can stand around with still nothing to do. Oh I forgot, the new Klingon episodes. Well, it takes like 2 weeks to level a fed character so how long will the Kling missions last me?
On top of that, the new ships that are coming; well they're going to the C store, not the game. Despite what you think, they are content. They're cosmetic content, but content nonetheless.
So what do we have to show now, considering money has been spent beyond the original purchase of the game? Nothing.
Ok we have interiors. I can now dance in engineering, sickbay, corridors or the lab, rather than just on my bridge.
With all the new additions, if I start a new character I could still level it in just over a week. I can go the FDC route if I want, and get a shiny new uniform, but I won't use that uniform, since to do so, I need a new slot. You can guess where that is.
As far as consequences for your own purchases go, I totally agree. Man cannot live on promises alone, and as a result, I have 1 day remaining to talk to you here.
edit- one other thing, people stick with and endure because of the IP. A Star Trek MMO/ What a dream! Many will keep pumping that cash every month just on the off chance it does realise its potential. As sad as I am to realise it isn't going to happen, I finally faced facts.
Yeah. I get your point. It's the whole thing about throwing good money after the bad. Your investment doesn't live up to expectations so you invest more money in it hoping that it will turn out right in the end. It's a well documented phenomenon. Knowing where your tolerance level is, your level of risk, when to cut your losses, is the key here.
I'll be sorry to see you go. Thanks for the debate. Perhaps one day STO will blossom and you'll be back. Until then,
Live long and prosper.
you right, i agree with you i should have spelled Doughnut properly.... it was early in the morning (PST) and was working night shift... my fault
more seriously there s no point to keep beating this dead horse... the C store items are just drops into a cup full of unsatisfied players, the C Store is not the cause of the problem.... the problem is to pay full price for a half finished game and the only option available to make it better is to buy additional stuff. i believe most people want a better game with more content, end game, closer to trek lore, real exploration etc... before having to buy fluffy stuff. So they can have fun playing it
Now looking at the last few month on the forums... Cryptic could have thrown most of the C store items (races, bridges, uniforms etc) as in game unlocks, mission rewards etc, mainly to appease players complaints about the core game weaknesses and asking us to be a bit more patient for more content and game improvements to happen down the road... open minded players would have acknowledged and understood the situation. THIS would have been great customers services as well....Now how many bashing threads would have been created if they did that...??? very little... but they went a different way...and at the end, we all pay the price... they seem to loose customers and there are less players on the server...i guess the RP guys get a real feel of space emptiness nowadays....
Yeah. I know. The problem is the, I will not say unfinished, unsatisfying game. The additional stuff will not make it better though. At best,giving away the C-store items will merely be a stopgap, little shiny baubles to distract from the real issue. Whether or not they do it, the game will still be how it is. They say they're trying to fix it so we wait. We don't require the distractions. If Cryptic were to give them us, it would help pass the time. Great! But if they don't we're not entitled to them, like some people on the forums think we are. The choice to stay and wait or to give up and leave really does not depend on the C-store items, it depends on the game in the entirety.
Say that you're right. There is no C-store team and the whole thing is just a money grab. Money that will go to the developers? Money that can likely be used to improve the game? So why, while complaining about the lack of core features do you demand that they cut their sources of income and thus potential development funds? You don't want to spend the money and that's all well and good but someone else might and that will go towards a better game for everyone, yourself included. Instead you would rather get something for nothing, and deny the developers additional funding sources, thereby denying improvements to the game, requiring the addition of more features, which should be free, not generating more income. Need I go on?
They may do it if they want to. There's the option there and if they can do it, so much the better. If they don't, that's still their choice. No one else can make it for them, so if they lose customers by it, that's their decision.
As to how many bashing threads there would be? I suspect lots. It's happened so many times on these forums, so many brushfires over the smallest little things that start from nowhere and disappear into oblivion just as quickly.
It's time we spoke out against the Devs and Cryptic
we have been.
and for the most part it's been constructive on our part.... we just aren't that important it seems...
and, yet here we are...... hundreds of dollars invested...... with a very bad taste in our mouths.... and here comes another spoonful of "it" again....
ooo look !!! another $25 ship in the c-store Yay !
Services: (Skipped - these tend to be pay for services in other games as well, and it is difficult to view any argument against them as valid, save perhaps additional character slots)
Bridge Packs: All completely fluff/cosmetic
Ship "costumes": All completely fluff/cosmetic
Uniforms: All completely fluff/cosmetic. Many if not all were at one point exclusives, so buying them here is in a way cheaper than, say, buying a box with a licence and a bonus of these items. (particularly the Mirror Universe uniforms which had been only available with a $300 (?) limited time lifetime subscription to CO)
Misc pre-order bonus items - I'm looking at these as being justifiable, simply because they also were only available with specific pre-orders. They do need to add some of the newer ones (like the phaser mine thing), but otherwise the C-Store is actually the cheaper option to getting these instead of having blown $40 on an additional pre-order box, and/or blowing $$$ on a questionable eBay of one. THIS INCLUDES THE TOS CONSTITUTION CLASS! Also includes the Borg BOs, the NX registry, Khan and Bloodwine emotes, Targ, tribble, etc.
Galaxy X: There is actually a way to "earn" this ship instead of buying it. Technically this fits the directive to making these items earnable in other ways or only cosmetic, regardless of people's feelings on the matter, it matched the letter of the law, so to speak. $25 isn't too bad when compared to the hundreds spent by friends on their 5 accounts and retail boxes.
Emote packs: all fluff/cosmetic.
All of the above match the directive Cryptic set out - all achievable in game or fluff.
It is worthy of note however, that in CO, all the costumes were also achievable through Accolades! (kill 50,000 of something, get a costume unlock). I am quite insistent that the ship costumes, bridges, and uniforms, become part of an accolade shop at some point in the near future, costing large quantities of accolade points (the equivalent of a top-level accolade). But that's just me.
The following items are the only ones technically in violation of the directive set forth for the C-Store:
Races.
That's it.
They aren't fluff (they have in-game impact), they aren't earnable (save joined trill and liberated borg if they ever give that one out), they are on the C-store.
Theo others we can all argue about based on the spirit of things, but that really is the only one that has no other way of earning it and has an impact on the game...
Comments
Mr r2data answered me...
i admit i was too lazy to look into the forum to prove it... but today's brought me fortune
He s talking about the Nebula of course...feel free to read the previous posts in the same thread
link
link
so yes i was wrong Caplogan did not work on the excelsior... he only worked on the Nebula... my mistake
as you can check by yourself both of them(caplogan and MTattersall)worked on C store items and core game ones... i m telling you there s no specific C store team... Do you start to understand how this works?
it s a one team business, they meet up, Mr Stahl leading(he s in charge after all) and they make the decision to create some stuff for the C store by allocating some time apart from creating stuff for the core game. theoretically if there was no C store we would only get core game stuff...but they would not get any extra money... and i thought i was naive...
Fine.So I was wrong on that one point. How d'you know the other people who worked on it are all part of the core dev team though? We really don't know their structure except what's been told to us.
In any case, The point was made for people to consider the fairness of what they may be demanding. If they can come up with a convincing argument as to how the ships can be put in-game for free accounting for the other factors then that's perfectly fine.
Instead all there is are posts saying "It should be free because we should have had it."
Hi mate, i just hope you did not take my post as a personal attack, a lot of people on this forum assumed exactly the same thing as Mr Stahl and other Cryptic staff have been using the C store team wording to avoid direct personal confrontation and/or to make the team looks bigger...
Would i know if other Core team members are working on C store stuff... i would not but my common sense and life experience are saying yes... there was another post yesterday from another Dev saying she/he was the only writter and was cross training for something else... it s all about maximizing staff... they even found a way to save on QA...asking players to test their product on tribble... i m telling you the 500 more bugs found on tribble over a week end saved them a lot of time, man power and ultamately money.
I would not be surprise if the Dev are becoming QA tester when a season or patch is finished and if all the forum moderators are also GM answering tickets under different usernames. I can recall a post from one of the dev talking about Zinc having various usernames on this forum... once again it s all about the appearance... how would you feel if your game was made by only 15 persons? it just look more serious to appear about 50...
Finally, regarding the C store items... i think the biggest issue is the lack of core game content... people are bored pretty quickly (even Mr Stahl stated he would like the game at the one year mark the way it should have been at launch)
As today players don t have much to do in game but are still charged full price for an unfinished product. W hile waiting to get a better game we are offered to buy some brand new designed items which could go into the game instead and get a better core product. I can totally understand why people are so upset with the C store and the STO team. Maybe they shoould focus on filling up the game first...then they can try to sell us whatever they want...
let s take a simple example to illustrate the situation...
you go to your local food shop and ask at the counter a dozen of donuts...she gives you a box with only 6 in it but charges you for 12. At the same time she offers you to buy some yummy canddies... Now you repeat this scenario every month... what would you think?... How about you fill up my box of donuts first then i ll see if i want to buy something else...No?
my point of view about the 2 new ships... i have no problem having the normal version of each in game and the superpowered ones in the C store as a paying alternative to the future tier 5 upgrade ships(galaxy, defiant, intrepid) we are going to have access in game at VA level.. i think this would be a very good compromise
the 2 addtional slots per character is just plain...
Hope this help...
No. I definitely don't take it as a personal attack. You do raise some interesting points. I get the point about not believing everything you hear and I was hasty in jumping to conclusions.
The part I have issues with is the part where we're waiting for an unfinished game. That really should not be the case. We paid for a game and we got what we paid for. Players made the choice to buy the game. If the choice was a bad one, then they can complain about that choice and try to get their money back. Or they can take it as a loss and stop playing the game, and in the process stop paying Cryptic more money over time. But either way, whether good or bad, the choice was made and if a person is still here, that's a consequence of their choice. I agree with the fact that there is a serious lack of content in the game and it needs more added to make it the game that it should be. Cryptic is working to improve the game and we as players, reward them by continuous subscriptions to the game. If we don't feel that we're getting enough to keep us in the game, we're free to leave if we like.
Now you say that the game is unfinished and you want them to add new things to the game that they've developed and they intend to charge for, good or bad I will not debate. This is, in essence, trying to make Cryptic take responsibility for the choice you made previously, i.e. to buy the game.
The whole argument that this is content that should have been in previously doesn't even make sense because if this really was a make or break thing, the argument should have come up at the start of the game, if it was so important to the game. This really isn't content. Content involves gameplay mechanics, missions or things like that. Things that without which, the game would really be incomplete. This is a variant of something that everyone already gets in-game i.e. ships. The new ships weren't promised at the start of the game, no one knew if they were going to be added let alone when. Now suddenly, there's a hole in the game and everyone needs to have it to round out the game? The things people wanted were for more missions, more end game, more mechanics, more things to do. They weren't complaining that much about the lack of the Nebula or Excelsior. The best part is that this still won't fill the percieved hole in the game. New ships don't help the problem of there being nowhere to fly.
I get that people have different perspectives and I get that it's easy to feel cheated out of something that was assumed to be given. Thing is it wasn't promised and if you're unhappy about it, there are recourses. There's your choice not to support the introduction of the ships by not buying it. There's the choice not to support the direction the game is going by ceasing to play it and pay for it. Those are the choices you have available and if you choose to take them, people will respect you for it. And if you do that and leave feedback as to why you're doing it on the forums for the developers, perhaps it will change in time. These are called feedback forums after all. That is what feedback is. Instead, people start crying, begging, pleading, threatening and all sorts of other measures to try and force what they want to happen. That way won't work. All it does is destroy their credibility to the point where no one will believe them Especially if people do an about face and buy the very things they were campaigning against.
Your analogy of donuts was interesting. I'll offer another in return. See it as an savings account in a bank. You put money in because the bank tells you there's a high interest rate. And you continue to invest in that account, a small percentage of your salary each month. The bank also offers you additional services like a debit card on the account for $5/month. Then the BLR drops, so the interest rate does too So instead of telling the bank you want to close your account, or keep investing in the account, hoping it will change for the better, you tell the bank you want a them to waive the debit card fee. Will it happen, even if you beg and plead and threaten to withdraw?
As to your doughnuts, perhaps a better analogy would be to say that you bought a dozen doughnuts, she gave you a dozen doughnuts but they tasted like paper. Do you then buy the candies that she offers? And is it her fault for selling you the papery doughnuts in the first place or her fault if you choose to buy the candies and they don't taste that good either? Should she give you the candies free because the doughnuts didn't taste well? Do you choose to go back to that shop again to buy more doughnuts, hoping that the baker will have improved them over time? Or would sticking the candies onto the doughnuts change anything even though they always taste like paper?
It's human nature to try and shift the responsibility for our choices onto someone else. What makes us mature is that we understand that what happens to us, ultimately is what we do to ourselves. I can understand where people are coming from, but I can hardly condone it.
You see, you can compromise. You at least gave Cryptic an option as to how you could be pleased. They may or may not take it and that's their choice. The consequence of their choice is theirs to deal with. This is at least better than the people who say "GImme, or else!".
nevermind.
Some people just don't get it.
P.S. Interstellar University of Culinary Arts sounds about right right now. We've graduated from cakes and are now onto doughnuts!
Yeah. I know. I'm sorry.
Just this bit.
We keep revisiting this, and as far as it goes, I understand your point of view, but only in so far as buying the game.
We installed our game and logged on, and I'd doubt many people had many problems in the first hours of play. By Commander you maybe have a few raised eyebrows at the fact that the exploration of the galaxy just isn't that at all, and it's really just a handheld, regurgitated mission with a different backdrop.
You may also (like me) excuse the predictable missions of "kill 5 groups of Romulan ships" because when you justify it in your own mind you think, well is that so different really to "go get me 10 boar skins"?
Remember, this is all still in the threshold of initial purchase.
So remember, this is not a single player game. It's not fire and forget, where if you don't like your purchase you just uninstall and call it lesson learned.
If you took your time in STO you may be at 29 days now. So new month's subscription hits, and you're like "ok no problem, still a way to go and we've had the STF videos and the posts by Cryptic saying what's coming and even though I'm a little bored right now, and don't bother to even read my quest text anymore, it's going to get better."
You get pretty far on in Captain as a tac (for ex.) and think "hey, it could be my class that's a bit bland. I'll try science."
Go make a science officer, pretty well since you've learned a bit on your first go. Start up, and it's the same. Exactly the same. From mission 1, you don't read the quest text sionce there's no need. No divergence in paths from 1 class to the next, not class specific missions, and you're still killing 5 of these or scanning 5 of those.
Sigh...ok, I'm a fed. Klingons are the pvp faction, I'll go try that and get some excitement going.
Nope. No one is playing. If the needed number of Klingons is up on the queue, the feds aren't having any. If enough of your compadres are in the queue, the Klings aren't willing. What's going on here?
Ohhhhh, we have fed vs fed now. Those that couldn't handle the Kling cloaks have decided it's better to fight each other.
Nope. Feds got tired of just fighting each other, but in the interim, Klings got tired of waitjn g for feds and all left the game. This sux.
Nevermind, you say. Cryptic are bringing a load of stuff really soon; just look at the engineer reports. New ships, FDC, interiors, all that good stuff.
Tribble testing arrives on the new stuff.
Now I am one who likes to be able to bug report to make sure things are ok, but at the same time, on a game with very little to do, I don't want to use it all up before it even gets to live. So I have a quick look at interiors, do a first contact mission and leave it at that. TBH that's pretty much the extent of the new content anyway.
Oh, I went and checked out my new clothing options on my klingon. Nice! Now I can stand around with still nothing to do. Oh I forgot, the new Klingon episodes. Well, it takes like 2 weeks to level a fed character so how long will the Kling missions last me?
On top of that, the new ships that are coming; well they're going to the C store, not the game. Despite what you think, they are content. They're cosmetic content, but content nonetheless.
So what do we have to show now, considering money has been spent beyond the original purchase of the game? Nothing.
Ok we have interiors. I can now dance in engineering, sickbay, corridors or the lab, rather than just on my bridge.
With all the new additions, if I start a new character I could still level it in just over a week. I can go the FDC route if I want, and get a shiny new uniform, but I won't use that uniform, since to do so, I need a new slot. You can guess where that is.
As far as consequences for your own purchases go, I totally agree. Man cannot live on promises alone, and as a result, I have 1 day remaining to talk to you here.
edit- one other thing, people stick with and endure because of the IP. A Star Trek MMO/ What a dream! Many will keep pumping that cash every month just on the off chance it does realise its potential. As sad as I am to realise it isn't going to happen, I finally faced facts.
you right, i agree with you i should have spelled Doughnut properly.... it was early in the morning (PST) and was working night shift... my fault
more seriously there s no point to keep beating this dead horse... the C store items are just drops into a cup full of unsatisfied players, the C Store is not the cause of the problem.... the problem is to pay full price for a half finished game and the only option available to make it better is to buy additional stuff. i believe most people want a better game with more content, end game, closer to trek lore, real exploration etc... before having to buy fluffy stuff. So they can have fun playing it
Now looking at the last few month on the forums... Cryptic could have thrown most of the C store items (races, bridges, uniforms etc) as in game unlocks, mission rewards etc, mainly to appease players complaints about the core game weaknesses and asking us to be a bit more patient for more content and game improvements to happen down the road... open minded players would have acknowledged and understood the situation. THIS would have been great customers services as well....Now how many bashing threads would have been created if they did that...??? very little... but they went a different way...and at the end, we all pay the price... they seem to loose customers and there are less players on the server...i guess the RP guys get a real feel of space emptiness nowadays....
Yeah. I get your point. It's the whole thing about throwing good money after the bad. Your investment doesn't live up to expectations so you invest more money in it hoping that it will turn out right in the end. It's a well documented phenomenon. Knowing where your tolerance level is, your level of risk, when to cut your losses, is the key here.
I'll be sorry to see you go. Thanks for the debate. Perhaps one day STO will blossom and you'll be back. Until then,
Live long and prosper.
Yeah. I know. The problem is the, I will not say unfinished, unsatisfying game. The additional stuff will not make it better though. At best,giving away the C-store items will merely be a stopgap, little shiny baubles to distract from the real issue. Whether or not they do it, the game will still be how it is. They say they're trying to fix it so we wait. We don't require the distractions. If Cryptic were to give them us, it would help pass the time. Great! But if they don't we're not entitled to them, like some people on the forums think we are. The choice to stay and wait or to give up and leave really does not depend on the C-store items, it depends on the game in the entirety.
Say that you're right. There is no C-store team and the whole thing is just a money grab. Money that will go to the developers? Money that can likely be used to improve the game? So why, while complaining about the lack of core features do you demand that they cut their sources of income and thus potential development funds? You don't want to spend the money and that's all well and good but someone else might and that will go towards a better game for everyone, yourself included. Instead you would rather get something for nothing, and deny the developers additional funding sources, thereby denying improvements to the game, requiring the addition of more features, which should be free, not generating more income. Need I go on?
They may do it if they want to. There's the option there and if they can do it, so much the better. If they don't, that's still their choice. No one else can make it for them, so if they lose customers by it, that's their decision.
As to how many bashing threads there would be? I suspect lots. It's happened so many times on these forums, so many brushfires over the smallest little things that start from nowhere and disappear into oblivion just as quickly.
we have been.
and for the most part it's been constructive on our part.... we just aren't that important it seems...
and, yet here we are...... hundreds of dollars invested...... with a very bad taste in our mouths.... and here comes another spoonful of "it" again....
ooo look !!! another $25 ship in the c-store Yay !
.:mad::mad:
Bridge Packs: All completely fluff/cosmetic
Ship "costumes": All completely fluff/cosmetic
Uniforms: All completely fluff/cosmetic. Many if not all were at one point exclusives, so buying them here is in a way cheaper than, say, buying a box with a licence and a bonus of these items. (particularly the Mirror Universe uniforms which had been only available with a $300 (?) limited time lifetime subscription to CO)
Misc pre-order bonus items - I'm looking at these as being justifiable, simply because they also were only available with specific pre-orders. They do need to add some of the newer ones (like the phaser mine thing), but otherwise the C-Store is actually the cheaper option to getting these instead of having blown $40 on an additional pre-order box, and/or blowing $$$ on a questionable eBay of one. THIS INCLUDES THE TOS CONSTITUTION CLASS! Also includes the Borg BOs, the NX registry, Khan and Bloodwine emotes, Targ, tribble, etc.
Galaxy X: There is actually a way to "earn" this ship instead of buying it. Technically this fits the directive to making these items earnable in other ways or only cosmetic, regardless of people's feelings on the matter, it matched the letter of the law, so to speak. $25 isn't too bad when compared to the hundreds spent by friends on their 5 accounts and retail boxes.
Emote packs: all fluff/cosmetic.
All of the above match the directive Cryptic set out - all achievable in game or fluff.
It is worthy of note however, that in CO, all the costumes were also achievable through Accolades! (kill 50,000 of something, get a costume unlock). I am quite insistent that the ship costumes, bridges, and uniforms, become part of an accolade shop at some point in the near future, costing large quantities of accolade points (the equivalent of a top-level accolade). But that's just me.
The following items are the only ones technically in violation of the directive set forth for the C-Store:
Races.
That's it.
They aren't fluff (they have in-game impact), they aren't earnable (save joined trill and liberated borg if they ever give that one out), they are on the C-store.
Theo others we can all argue about based on the spirit of things, but that really is the only one that has no other way of earning it and has an impact on the game...