Really? Apparently I missed new ships then... which ones are those that have been added to the game and NOT the CStore? And Im especially talking full model ships (Galaxy X, Excelsior, Nebula - the last two are ships we've been asking for since launcjh and before) not just skins.
Season 2.0 refits, you get four ships, three feds and one klingon.
If any of you have been following the release of Starcraft 2's Battle.net 2.0, You will see that Blizzard is also going to attempt a style of the C-Store by selling premium maps. I will inevitably hate Blizzard for this action. However, due to the current MASS of complaints, Blizzard announced the option will not be implemented until later after the release IF! The player base would accept it.
Lol, I hate them already for selling that game in three parts and telling the players they had to to make a whole game
The problem with your argument is your sense of entitlement. You want everything you want at the price you want when you want it and how you want it. It's like going to a cake maker, saying "I'll buy a vanilla cake, now layer the top with chocolate and cherries and sprinkles free for me. It's still cake right? Like Star Trek is still Star Trek, with or without the bells and whistles. Or if you want an in-game example it's like you're saying, I've bought the game, I paid my 15/month, now I want to be RA5 in 1 hour and be damned if I don't get it.
And when you go to get that cake, the price is set, like Cryptic set the price of STO at 15 a month.
Now when you go to collect your cake and a whole layer is missing but the price remains the same, and the baker says you'll get that layer somewhere down the road or as an extra cost, you're going to be a bit miffed.
You don't get the work that they've put into it, worth the amount you've spent and the additional work that creating the additional content requires. Sure your 15/month subscription pays for some of that work, the core features that are implemented into the game via the Season releases and over the course of a Season as well. It's not like saying they have not improved the game one iota and are instead shovelling all their resources into paid content. Everyone gets the main features that they've put into the update.
No one says they haven't improved the game, and they have, and I hope will continue to do so, but the whole nature of an MMO is that you have to make new content for people to keep subscribing in the first place. This is not a favour they do for you, it is the need to keep you around. If the Nebula (for ex) was available as a rare drop from one of the STFs, it would both give people something to do in game, and by definition keep them paying in order to get that item. With the C store, you buy it, fly around for a bit, and still have nowhere to go, so it's just as likely you don't re-up at the end of the month.
The C-store team is a seperate team of developers, funded by purchases from the C-store. Without the content that people buy, there would be no C-store team and thus none of the content that you're raging about. We just wouldn't see any of it. Sure it may come in, years and years down the road, but the fact is that there wouldn't be any of these available now if it weren't for the store. So now, instead of just wanting your cake and eating it too, you'd rather deny everyone else the chance to have a richer experience because they're willling to pay for it and you aren't?
Well said, so by your own words, the C store doesn't fund the updates we all feel entitled to by our monthly sub.
Wouldn't you rather have your item as an accolade reward for some STF on hard mode in the future?
No one is forcing you to buy any of anything that the C-store has available. You pick and choose what you'd like and what you wouldn't like. Personally, I don't see any point in the bridge packs or races on the C-store. I like some of the costume variants and would buy some of those but not all. You act as if they're making you buy all of everything that's available or you will not be able to play any more. The game is perfectly playable and enjoyable without any of those extras. Stop beating your fists and get off the floor before you choke.
It is playable, you're right, and no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
Okay, let's assume you're not being a whiny brat and actually have a point, that everything in the C-store should have been included in the core game. That would require having a larger development team, one that integrates the current core development team as well as the C-store team. That plus all the resources they require would mean a higher cost. Would you be willing to pay a higher subscription rate because of that? There you go, you're turning purple again. Try to breathe.
That's not the customer's fault. To be blunt, if the developement team can't handle the job, they shouldn't be developing the game. And it's a fallacious argument anyway, since as you say, the C store part of the team could still continue to make their bits and pieces, and they would instead be loaded as content into the game structure.
You quote WoW to say that you pay for the game and expansions as well as the subscription but they have a totally different system. Do they really release new areas and mechanics and content as patches? Or do they save it all up for expansions? Do they get free Seasons like we do? I can't even think of a parallel for the new T5 ships that we're getting free because nothing to do with your character in WoW is big enough or requires as much effort. (As an aside, they spent two weeks just working on the Saucer Seperation mechanic,. Dyou think WoW would have given that away?)
Yes they do release an awful lot of stuff between paid expansions. Just in recent history, without going way back, the colleseum and Icecrown sprng to mind.
Not only are they new raids, similar I suppose to STFs, but they also comes with new tier itemisation, something STO does not have. MK X is Mk X, there is no timesink to gain new improved gear once you've upgraded. There is no improvement system such as gemming or enchanting to alter stats to make your character more unique.
You whine that WoW et. al gives you more character slots and ship slots but you forget how much resources a character, with bridge officers and ships take. You count one character as one character, not one character as, say 12 if you've got one captain, seven BOs and five ships. Count the three slots that Cryptic has given and... you get 26 slots on one server. So... how does that compute again?
Forget wow, and think Guild wars. I have (I think) 5 slots for my characters there. Each has about 10 heroes (like BOs) and I pay nothing per month at all for any of that.
There are no new features of the game that are placed in the C-Store. All the features that have been introduced, and promised are included in the core game. The C-Store merely has some bits and pieces of interest. Your game is by no means incomplete if you don't have everything that's on the C-store. I mean, seriously, what use will you have for that many bridge and costume variants. You can't implement them all at once. Some ships admittedly are unique, but again their use in no way detracts from the core game. I don't mind in the slightest that the Nebula and Excelsior are going to be on the C-store considering that I did not expect them to be in-game at all when they weren't introduced at launch. And if you don't support their addition now or don't want to buy them, the choice is simple. Don't buy them. Don't buy them if you don't think that the time the C-store team spent developing them was not worth it for you. That is your option right there. That is what your money will get you. You don't have to have them. But you say they have unique abilities? The devs have already said that they have unique abilities because they have detractions, they are less capable then equivalent ships that lack those abilities. That is the trade-off that is made when making your choice. So, in its way there is no loss because you don't have them.
I don't have a comment on that bit. That side of the argument doesn't really interest me in itself.
[quoteLearn the difference between need and want. Want means things that are desirable but that you can live without and your Star Trek Online experience will be in no way deminished by the absense of these extras. Needs are things that are game-breaking or changing that you cannot do without.[/QUOTE]
In a way you're right, if this wasn't the IP it is. The uniforms and ships are integral to Star Trek, and are what most people associate with the IP spanning 40 years. Leathery looking jackets and power ranger combat suits are not.
The C-Store would never be a problem if you consider a few things; you can take any amount of these, one or all, and it would drastically improve public opinion of the C-Store.
1) Allow us to spend some for mof in-game currency, such as Merits, to pay for C-Store items. Either to pay for them in full or to shave off half the price. Already there is precedent for this in-game... 20,000 Starfleet Merits/KDF Honor to pay to respend your Captain skills, and you can also purchase a Respec token in the C-Store.
2) Give us an in-game means to earn these rewards, perhaps tied to Accolades. Spend X-amount of time flying your Cruiser, and after a while, unlock one of the Cruiser costumes from the C-Store. Breed so many tribbles, and unlock the Tribble pet. Completion of difficult missions on Elite setting may earn you a different item, etc; the possibilities here are limitless.
3) Allow us to earn Cryptic Points in-game in some fashion. Perhaps every three months hand out 200-500 Cryptic points to every account, or tie them into Veteran rewards, or give us a couple by completing missions on Elite or doing Fleet Actions, or something.
All three of these together might be overkill, so I suggest taking one idea and running with it.
If we could earn these things in-game, there will be more incentive for people to play and strive for these rewards -- and thus hold onto their subscriptions longer (in effect, earning Cryptic more money through subscriptions). Those who want these items now and fork over their cash and pay for it through the C-Store.
The C-Store would never be a problem if you consider a few things; you can take any amount of these, one or all, and it would drastically improve public opinion of the C-Store.
1) Allow us to spend some for mof in-game currency, such as Merits, to pay for C-Store items. Either to pay for them in full or to shave off half the price. Already there is precedent for this in-game... 20,000 Starfleet Merits/KDF Honor to pay to respend your Captain skills, and you can also purchase a Respec token in the C-Store.
2) Give us an in-game means to earn these rewards, perhaps tied to Accolades. Spend X-amount of time flying your Cruiser, and after a while, unlock one of the Cruiser costumes from the C-Store. Breed so many tribbles, and unlock the Tribble pet. Completion of difficult missions on Elite setting may earn you a different item, etc; the possibilities here are limitless.
3) Allow us to earn Cryptic Points in-game in some fashion. Perhaps every three months hand out 200-500 Cryptic points to every account, or tie them into Veteran rewards, or give us a couple by completing missions on Elite or doing Fleet Actions, or something.
All three of these together might be overkill, so I suggest taking one idea and running with it.
Ah yes, We have stated each of these in some way shape or form throughout our discussion, but you have taken the best and summed it up. Quite nicely put
Regardless, and I shall re-iterate. I love the new features, and I'm very pleased with what is coming out. I'm just protesting like Deck over here, that we shouldn't be as he so eloquently put it "Nickeled and Dimed" for theme related extras.
I think the main threat of the store, is that, as it becomes more successful, it will start to usurp development priorities for the game. For so long as there is an economy in the game based on real-world currency that is officially sanctioned by the company itself, you are going to see this thing turn into a way for them to make a quick buck, at the expense of game play. More character slots? Thats understandable for C-STORE. But when you start putting pre-order items and things like ships on there... that is really a slap in the face to people who really want to support the game, jump in, and play.
There are a lot of FREE games online that require you to pay for all sorts of junk, or have an entire economy built into the game thats based on real-world cash (Second Life anyone?). This is where it could lead if the store gets out of control.
I think the main threat of the store, is that, as it becomes more successful, it will start to usurp development priorities for the game. For so long as there is an economy in the game based on real-world currency that is officially sanctioned by the company itself, you are going to see this thing turn into a way for them to make a quick buck, at the expense of game play. More character slots? Thats understandable for C-STORE. But when you start putting pre-order items and things like ships on there... that is really a slap in the face to people who really want to support the game, jump in, and play.
There are a lot of FREE games online that require you to pay for all sorts of junk, or have an entire economy built into the game thats based on real-world cash (Second Life anyone?). This is where it could lead if the store gets out of control.
Theyve already said that thats the case. the quote from the MMO article essentially says that.
"without the CStore we wouldnt have it" argument
In regards to your questions, I shall answer them in order
1. It's a discussion forum, it does not matter where I place my grievances. (Unless you are blind this has clearly turned into a discussion)
2. When i purchased the game, I did not look at the in-depth effects the C-Store would have on my interests of Star Trek (Be it that it has prohibited me from obtaining many of the features and looks I imagined when I bought that game (from watching all the episodes of Star Trek: TNG)
3. They won't get rid of it, but as I said, If you took the bloody time to read my origional post, They should reform it, Drastically.
4. Now you've made me hate-rage, And I warned of this in my post. Think about it for 2 ****in seconds why don't you? Races with abilities you can't obtain, Ships with abilities you cannot purchase in-game. Separation of the Saucer-Section. Clearly you have not done research into the most minuscule details that could effect the outcome of a situational battle. Please, go play risk.
Now I have nothing against you, nor do I want to argue, I am just telling you "how it is", so to speak.
1.) Yes this is a discussion forum, but it is divided into sub categories so that things aren't so disorderly. You are just cluttering things up by posting in the wrong area. try to be less disorganized in the future.
2.) It pays to investigate before making a purchase.....caveat emptor.
3.) It is here as it is, it will not be "drastically altered". And no, I took the time to read "your bloody post" you said (I will quote) "In all honesty, Abolish the C-Store." that does not mean "drastically alter"
4.) Hate rage all you want.... there is no advantage, sure they may be different, they may be something you want, but you said "advantage" give details (remember, I have only been playing since open beta and have seen nothing that would give an advantage....just different options). There is nothing that gives you an advantage in the C-store...THe moment they put something in that does give an advantage I will be right there with you screaming my head off about it....until then I will play the game and cruise the forums correcting people that need need it.
And I will go where I wish to go, and post where I will, Risk was great when I was a young boy, but I like to spend my time correcting people on the internet, now.
And I notice you neglected to answer the last question...(Do you write long winded letters to the cable company complaining about paying for their service but not getting all the PPV channels for free?) Which is exactly the same thing that you were complaining about with this game...
Seriously....Cryptic is a business, and a business does what it does to make money, giving everything away (no matter how much you want it) does not make them money.
I'll give this lot a shot
And when you go to get that cake, the price is set, like Cryptic set the price of STO at 15 a month.
Now when you go to collect your cake and a whole layer is missing but the price remains the same, and the baker says you'll get that layer somewhere down the road or as an extra cost, you're going to be a bit miffed.
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that you've bought the base cake. One that you paid for and that the baker has delivered. The 15/month is like paying the baker to come and pump cream filling into the cake while the C-store accoutrements are the cherries. There's nothing missing from the cake originally but you pay for the embellishments. It's interesting how far analogies will stretch. Some people would be willing to pay additional for the cherries on top. Some would say that a cake isn't a cake without cherries and demand that they be added at no extra cost and some would be happy with just a plain vanilla cake. See the parallel there?
No one says they haven't improved the game, and they have, and I hope will continue to do so, but the whole nature of an MMO is that you have to make new content for people to keep subscribing in the first place. This is not a favour they do for you, it is the need to keep you around. If the Nebula (for ex) was available as a rare drop from one of the STFs, it would both give people something to do in game, and by definition keep them paying in order to get that item. With the C store, you buy it, fly around for a bit, and still have nowhere to go, so it's just as likely you don't re-up at the end of the month.
I'd agree actually, except that rewards are not necessarily one thing or another. I suppose it could be said that a Nebula would motivate more people (and dStahl said he was pushing for something of the sort) but rewards could be something else and people would still work for it. Increased content is something that I would love to have. My personal view on STO is that it's a bit shallow and linear for me but I still come back to it because it is Star Trek after all.
Well said, so by your own words, the C store doesn't fund the updates we all feel entitled to by our monthly sub.
Wouldn't you rather have your item as an accolade reward for some STF on hard mode in the future?
Key point there is the future. If it was the future, how far into the future? This will suit people who want it sooner than that. Who knows, that far down the future, it might be taken down from the C-store and added to the game itself with new stuff in the C-store? Wouldn't that be ideal? The people who are willing to wait for content and are unwilling to pay for expedites will wait knowing that it will come out in due course, while those that want and can pay get it first.
That's not the customer's fault. To be blunt, if the developement team can't handle the job, they shouldn't be developing the game. And it's a fallacious argument anyway, since as you say, the C store part of the team could still continue to make their bits and pieces, and they would instead be loaded as content into the game structure.
But then who pays the extra developers. As I've said, if they can't pay the additional team, then no additional content. We'd just be getting what we've got now and nothing else.
EDIT: Perhaps some clarification is required. The impression I've gotten is that the C-store team is a team by itself, seperate from the main developers. Their rise and fall by no means afftects the game. What this means that in essence, you pay two teams for two parts of the game. Part A. Team A: The core game wtih your subscription that comes up with season updates. Part B Team B: The C-store items paid wth purchases that work exclusively on C-store items and have no affect on the core game at all.
Yes they do release an awful lot of stuff between paid expansions. Just in recent history, without going way back, the colleseum and Icecrown sprng to mind.
Not only are they new raids, similar I suppose to STFs, but they also comes with new tier itemisation, something STO does not have. MK X is Mk X, there is no timesink to gain new improved gear once you've upgraded. There is no improvement system such as gemming or enchanting to alter stats to make your character more unique.
Forget wow, and think Guild wars. I have (I think) 5 slots for my characters there. Each has about 10 heroes (like BOs) and I pay nothing per month at all for any of that.
That I do not know, seeing as I only played WoW for two months.
I can see where you're coming from but the simple fact is that it's done and it may change but will not be undone.
While I agree with the majority of your points I have to say. Bottom line, it seems CBS has their little tenticles too much in Cryptic's development process. That's probably the wrong phrase to use, but it's close enough as I am willing to go at 430 am.
I like STO, it is fun and I like what the team at Cryptic is doing in regards to the updates. In reference to WoW, they provide updates similar to Cryptic's seasons between major expansions. Look at ICC for example since WOTLK they have seen several updates which included dungeons and what not.
1. Hey man, you get some cool stuff that most other players can't get unless they want to spend mega bucks on some virtual items.
I don't think "mega bucks" is a term you should use here. Perhaps "extra cash" would be a better phrase. I don't see spending something around 2-3 bucks on a new species to be "mega bucks." I don't make a lot of money, and Caitians were one of the C-Store items I wanted enough to justify purchasing some points to get my hands on.
2. Some features like extra re-specs and name changes and special hull registry's are somethings that are worth paying for.
I agree, name changes and re-specs I would expect to be in the store. These things are a +1 from me. However, a hull registry? I suppose the price is low enough that I can justify dropping some "remaining points" on at some point, but nothing I will say "oh hey I want that, so I'm going to spend 6.25 for the points to get just that." This is one of those things that I will get, but only because I might have the extra points left over after buying -insert species-ship-race-stuffs here-.
3. You can do things other players can't.
I am not quite sure what you mean on this one. Currently, there are mostly cosmetics pretty to look at stuff on the store. With the exception of "that one ship." Some would argue even, some of the races have a clear distinct advantage over others currently in game. I have no opinion on this right now as I have not sat down and compared the stats of passives available to certain species.
So, unless you mean there is content available that "makes you better" at one thing or another or quest content to purchase in the store I fail to see the point of bullet number 3 here.
(Yeah, really not that many Pros, prepare for some Khans, err I mean cons!)
Cons:
1. It costs money, which the game itself charges you monthly.
I am okay with this, they have stated the C-Store brings things into the game we ask for, but wouldn't normally make it in an update. However, my biggest beef with this is how the money is used. Is it only applied to C-Store assets, or is it divided up amongst development items. So lets say 6.25 is divided up with C-store items, new art for upcoming patches, bug fixes, and a slew of other stuff. Or is that 6.25 available only for assets applied only to the C-store.
I hope, for the sake of cryptic, that money is applied to every aspect of the development including research!
I am sure they have to spend some time researching and devising ways to get things in game that we want, like UGC.
2. If your under 18 and your parents are the Anti-Christs of video games, might want to go play a different game if you really want something from the C-Store.
I kind of snickered at this, because it is true. There are a lot of parents out there who believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that video games are the devil and will corrupt and condemn your soul! However, I don't believe it is valid for the sake of this conversation, as it is a moral choice and who is to tell parents how to raise their own children? Certainly not me.
3. Certain special features such as Bridges / Ships / Races, are prohibited from the standard game unless you purchase bridge packs or special ships or races on the C-store.
This is okay with me for the most part; however I do believe that they should give a more balanced approach to this. Complete xyz quest chain and obtain a bridge pack, ship, or even unlock a race as a reward. DDO kind of does this, (their DDO Store asside) before they went free to play you could unlock Drow race and Favored soul class by playing the game and earning favor.
So I think STO should start doing something along those lines. At least have an in game way to allow people to earn some assets available in the store. Even if it is a hard grind to do so, something should be done here to balance this out...a lot. At this point, there is a clear imbalance to what is available to obtain through gameplay and what is available in the store. I don't feel their are enough rewards for every play style in the game just for playing the game.
4. Some players may find that they can obtain somewhat of an advantage over other players by having a race that has abilities that they couldn't obtain (If your going to try to quote this, just seriously I'll write you a 10 paragraph hate-rage as to why this is a valid point).
This is a Valid point, I didn't hit on it earlier, since I haven't sat down and compared all the stats each class gets passive or otherwise to determine how valid this arguement is. So really, I don't know how to argue this one. Except that Caitians get this 10% exploit damage. When trying to take out an opponent, this is a lot of damage if you figure the math.
10% will add up. Is it a huge advantage? Maybe not, but is it enough to gain an edge? I believe so. So yes, this is a valid point, but how valid?
5. Why are we limited to 3 character slots, bro, WoW has 10 (per server!!!), and even EvE-Online has at the least 4 (If I'm not mistaken I think it was upped to 6, FREE OF CHARGE!)
Well I don't know for sure, but I wonder how this works. Probably has something to do with the amount of money cryptic has, how much is coming in and how much base storage space they have for their database and all the characters currently stored and backed up.
I got a B- in my Relational Database class, and barely understood the stuff. So yeah that's all I will say. Ultimately, I think it boils down to resources, how much do they have and how much can they afford.
6. There's a limit on how many ships we can own? So let me get this straight, if we want to put one extra escort in the virtual drydock, its going to cost me around $5?
Again, database constraints? There is a lot of information per character stored. Customization of not only your characters, but also all of those bridge officers for each of your 3 characters, and your ships.
7. Your giving things to other players who simply put more money in your pocket and make the game quite unbalanced and unfair. (Oh let me guess, just like the Nebula and the Excelsior your putting in the C-Store, any other cool ships that all the players DID NOT WANT IN THE C-Store, are going to end up there?)
If you are referring to preorder lifers and perhaps anyone who went out and bought extra copies of the game just for the bonuses. Sure, but I don't feel I have an advantage over a non lifer. Not to mention if you bought a lifetime I believe they are offering lib borg again ? Someone confirm this for me if you can. I have only heard rumors.
Solution: I have a box of tissues if it will help you Cryptic but give it a year and it will boil down to this if you keep putting more items into the C-Store, Dan Stahl, I don't know what your broski Craig said to you, but I hope it was this word of advice about the C-store. But instead I'll outline it yet again and make it more to the point and simple to read.
1. Only use the C-Store for name changes and account transfers maybe, and it will hurt me to say this but I suppose you need some money (lol), go ahead and keep the option to add character slots. (And why not start selling t-shirts and some other STO gear, that'd be cool)
Eh, I don't agree. I think the C-store is fine as long as they stay true to the players with it. And so far, I think they are doing fine. Not great, but fine. They need to re-balance the C-store, but otherwise they're doing fine.
2. Give your players what they paid for, Star Trek, the whole shabang, not a piece meal choppy unfair advantage game for people who want to stuff your pockets with cash. (This will kill the MMO in good time if you keep this up). THIS MEANS ALL THE SHIP SKINS, ALL THE BRIDGES, ALL THE RACES THAT WE EXPECT TO SEE IN STAR TREK!
CBS wanted a release in 2 years, they got a release in 2 years. It is a playable game, although not complete. It is what CBS wanted I believe and CBS gets what CBS wants. Again I could be wrong on this, but I have read the forums enough to believe this is how it goes down.
Concept
CBS approval
Make it
CBS approval
something something something (DSTAHL posted something about this).
If you put my Nebula Class in the C-Store, I don't even want to describe what horrific acts of terror I will have to commit on my keyboard. We might as well whip open the bible and begin the funeral prayer for my computer, he will unfortunately be the next target.
In all honesty, Abolish the C-Store. But hey cryptic, should we look at all the games that you made that seemingly went "down the drain" in the past when you tried a thing similar to the C-store? I'd prefer that people's dreams of playing out the missions of a starfleet captain are not crushed because you pulled a stunt that obliterated a game with such great potential based on such an epic multi-generation tv-series that has never been taken on the MMO scale.
Please list these games? I would like to know so I can research and decide if you are just blabbing off some steam or have some valid facts to back up your claims here. Mainly because I just want to know what you are going on about here. Cryptic to my knowledge have only made STO and CO. Any others are beyond my knowledge. And fyi, CO is still going (strong or not) it is still alive.
I think overall pretty good post, you pointed out your concerns and how you feel. As many others have in the past year or so. And, perhaps they will go heard or unheard we may never know. But, I think that you have it well in your head about what we as Star Trek fans want and expect. As such good job on the post. I hope I wasn't too harsh on ya.
Now I have nothing against you, nor do I want to argue, I am just telling you "how it is", so to speak.
1.) Yes this is a discussion forum, but it is divided into sub categories so that things aren't so disorderly. You are just cluttering things up by posting in the wrong area. try to be less disorganized in the future.
2.) It pays to investigate before making a purchase.....caveat emptor.
3.) It is here as it is, it will not be "drastically altered". And no, I took the time to read "your bloody post" you said (I will quote) "In all honesty, Abolish the C-Store." that does not mean "drastically alter"
4.) Hate rage all you want.... there is no advantage, sure they may be different, they may be something you want, but you said "advantage" give details (remember, I have only been playing since open beta and have seen nothing that would give an advantage....just different options). There is nothing that gives you an advantage in the C-store...THe moment they put something in that does give an advantage I will be right there with you screaming my head off about it....until then I will play the game and cruise the forums correcting people that need need it.
And I will go where I wish to go, and post where I will, Risk was great when I was a young boy, but I like to spend my time correcting people on the internet, now.
And I notice you neglected to answer the last question...(Do you write long winded letters to the cable company complaining about paying for their service but not getting all the PPV channels for free?) Which is exactly the same thing that you were complaining about with this game...
Seriously....Cryptic is a business, and a business does what it does to make money, giving everything away (no matter how much you want it) does not make them money.
Have a pleasant day
Comcast and I have a mutual relationship, thanks for asking. In other news, I've had a splendid morning with the forums, and a good laugh at your insolence for quoting the wrong section of my OP. Above which I clearly stated a "Solution" outline. But my main vote remains to abolish it. Regardless, I shall re-edit upon my insights from this discussion.
Have a fantastic day . (You have been corrected as you needed to be)
Truwen, I enjoyed your post to be honest and I'm virtually congruent in agreement with what you posted. Yes I was probably a bit extraneous with some of my ranting, I will "edit" said rant.
r2data, I don't want to keep making mega sized posts full of quotes lol, so I'll just answer you without them
Either parallel works on the cake analogy, but specifically relating to Cryptic, you could argue that what we pay for in our subscriptions right now is sub par anyway to what was expected at launch. That's not to say though that they aren't making strides to put the game as it should be. Just remember though that you could either look at the upcomming season releases as more content, or as what should have been there in the first place.
It's like the public blindness towards budgets. If the government increase taxes 1 month, there's outcry. Six months down the line they decrease them back to their original level and the people cheer as if it's a great gift. What's forgotten is that they've gained absolutely nothing more than what they had in the first place.
Taking your next 2 points both together, it doesn't matter what the reward actually is. The point is, the existing items that are sold in the C store are good enough as rewards in game as they are. Not only that, but the things such as uniforms are actually pertinent to the game we're playing.
As far as the question of what exactly the future is, well there's a new STF coming up very shortly. No reason one of the ships being touted on the C store couldn't have been a reward or drop from that. The future is now :cool:
By the example you gave of amalgamation of devleopement and C store teams, there are no extra developers, and apparently none are needed. C store team make items- items go to content house-items are implemented into the game structure. That's exactly as it's done right now, but without the fleecing.
If you haven't played wow then you can't be expected to know what is and isn't added between paid expansions, so that's fair enough. Suffice to say though, the one thing blizzard is good at is keeping the players in the game, and paying for it. Some will say that' through the grind process, and I agree with that, but it works, and it's something we do not have here.
You didn't answer my point of comparison between Guild wars free storage of all the character data and the excuse here that it costs a lot to upkeep our STO data. Also add to that 6 years versus 6 months.
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that you've bought the base cake. One that you paid for and that the baker has delivered. The 15/month is like paying the baker to come and pump cream filling into the cake while the C-store accoutrements are the cherries. There's nothing missing from the cake originally but you pay for the embellishments. It's interesting how far analogies will stretch. Some people would be willing to pay additional for the cherries on top. Some would say that a cake isn't a cake without cherries and demand that they be added at no extra cost and some would be happy with just a plain vanilla cake. See the parallel there?
This isn't my argument, but I would like to dismiss this analogy -- just because someone is happy with a vanilla cake, doesn't necessarily mean everyone is -- or somehow preclude people who like other types of cakes.
Well, its 7:30 AM here, Heh, Guess ill check back in around noon after i sleep the day away. Good discussion so far, a lot of things ironed out and many new ideas thrown out on to the table. Hopefully the devs, and maybe Dstahl himself will take a peek over here.
I can understand someone not liking the current C-store arrangement.
Now, on to WoW.
Quoted from Wikipedia: "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of Warcraft on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the Warcraft franchise."
November 23, 2004, hmmmm so Blizzard has had 5 1/2 years to clear out bugs, add content, make expansions (which have sold for what, $50.00 U.S. per...$30.00, somewhere in between?), and generally polish a game to the product they have today?
Comparitively, STO has had roughly 5 months. less than 1/12 the time. Perhaps compare apples to apples?
I'm an EvE fan personally, yet I refuse to post "CCP has this and this and this in EvE, STO doesn't have that." for exactly the reason I cited above.
If you don't like the game, there's the wormhole. Don't let it close on your TRIBBLE on the way through. Please feel free to go make "Internet is for TRIBBLE", "Leroy Jenkins", or whatever fraps you choose to capture with your $15.00 monthly.
Do I think STO is perfect? No. Do I like the current C-store? No. Do I think there's going to be improvements over the next 5 years, while STO ages to WoW and EvE's current ages? That really goes without saying.
I can understand someone not liking the current C-store arrangement.
Now, on to WoW.
Quoted from Wikipedia: "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of Warcraft on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the Warcraft franchise."
November 23, 2004, hmmmm so Blizzard has had 5 1/2 years to clear out bugs, add content, make expansions (which have sold for what, $50.00 U.S. per...$30.00, somewhere in between?), and generally polish a game to the product they have today?
Comparitively, STO has had roughly 5 months. less than 1/12 the time. Perhaps compare apples to apples?
I'm an EvE fan personally, yet I refuse to post "CCP has this and this and this in EvE, STO doesn't have that." for exactly the reason I cited above.
If you don't like the game, there's the wormhole. Don't let it close on your TRIBBLE on the way through. Please feel free to go make "Internet is for TRIBBLE", "Leroy Jenkins", or whatever fraps you choose to capture with your $15.00 monthly.
Do I think STO is perfect? No. Do I like the current C-store? No. Do I think there's going to be improvements over the next 5 years, while STO ages to WoW and EvE's current ages? That really goes without saying.
Thank you captain obvious, however, we were comparing apples to similar apples, but of different age. Your acronyms shall only lead to your downfall. Don't let the transwarp hub dissolve your matter on your way out.
r2data, I don't want to keep making mega sized posts full of quotes lol, so I'll just answer you without them
Either parallel works on the cake analogy, but specifically relating to Cryptic, you could argue that what we pay for in our subscriptions right now is sub par anyway to what was expected at launch. That's not to say though that they aren't making strides to put the game as it should be. Just remember though that you could either look at the upcomming season releases as more content, or as what should have been there in the first place.
It's like the public blindness towards budgets. If the government increase taxes 1 month, there's outcry. Six months down the line they decrease them back to their original level and the people cheer as if it's a great gift. What's forgotten is that they've gained absolutely nothing more than what they had in the first place.
You do have a point there I agree, but who decided what was going to be there originally and what wasn't? I don't remember there being a list of things that they asked us to approve. Fact is they developed a Star Trek MMO. We bought it and when we bought it, we decided that it was what we would consider an appropriate game. We did not buy it because we thought it was unfinished. If it was, we wouldn't have bought it. That part is done and over with. No one dangled the promised land in front of you or wheedled that the streets would be paved with gold FOC a year down the road. Sure, you can say that it was supposed to be Star Trek and it should have all those things in it. How far can that go? Are they supposed to go head over heels just to please everyone's view of Star Trek? Work slavishly to add the obscure details of a single episode to make it be Star Trek? In this case, this game should never have been made. Some parts of it don't gel with some people's definition of Trek.
Should haves are should haves. We made the decision in spite of the lack. You can't turn around now and say what if. We didn't even know these additions would be made at all. in any form, paid or unpaid. What's important is that it is being added. The how, that's a bit iffy, but not unreasonable.
If it was missing a crucial portion of the game, you should have waited. Buy and subscribe when you think it meets your definitions, not before. They can only persuade you to buy early, not force you to. No one said the game would not be available down the road when it had more content added.
Taking your next 2 points both together, it doesn't matter what the reward actually is. The point is, the existing items that are sold in the C store are good enough as rewards in game as they are. Not only that, but the things such as uniforms are actually pertinent to the game we're playing.
As far as the question of what exactly the future is, well there's a new STF coming up very shortly. No reason one of the ships being touted on the C store couldn't have been a reward or drop from that. The future is now :cool:
No reason not to you say, but for the C-store, it would not even have been created, much less be the possibility for a reward drop. The uniforms and such are pertinent but are not significant to the game. Nothing is lost by you not being able to wear TNG uniforms. I would go as far to say as they may not be relevant to the game at all. The game is set 30 years down the road. Such uniforms would have been obsoleted. Even the Enterprise crew stopped wearing them. They are, in essence, no longer Star Trek.
By the example you gave of amalgamation of devleopement and C store teams, there are no extra developers, and apparently none are needed. C store team make items- items go to content house-items are implemented into the game structure. That's exactly as it's done right now, but without the fleecing.
The point about amalgamation is that they are two seperate teams. Having all free content would require the combination of two teams, meaning that half the bigger team will have to be paid for somehow. There are no extra developers. That is because the C-store team is currently paid for by C-store purchases. Would you support them giving away the C-store content but doubling the subscription fee to cover the remaining, not extra developers? Everything everywhere costs something, even if the costs are not percievable.
If you haven't played wow then you can't be expected to know what is and isn't added between paid expansions, so that's fair enough. Suffice to say though, the one thing blizzard is good at is keeping the players in the game, and paying for it. Some will say that' through the grind process, and I agree with that, but it works, and it's something we do not have here.
You didn't answer my point of comparison between Guild wars free storage of all the character data and the excuse here that it costs a lot to upkeep our STO data. Also add to that 6 years versus 6 months.
I could not answer that one as well because I haven't played Guild Wars as well. I'm sure they have their own business practices, but what works for one may not work for all. This again is about having your cake and eating it too. If everyone, everywhere were able to follow the ideals then there would be no diversity left, because everyone will be perfect.
This isn't my argument, but I would like to dismiss this analogy -- just because someone is happy with a vanilla cake, doesn't necessarily mean everyone is -- or somehow preclude people who like other types of cakes.
That is precisely my point. That one side of the argument does not preclude the other. And "vanilla" is actually a term to describe baseline, not necessarily a flavour. It can be such but can also be the other
Really? Apparently I missed new ships then... which ones are those that have been added to the game and NOT the CStore? And Im especially talking full model ships (Galaxy X, Excelsior, Nebula - the last two are ships we've been asking for since launcjh and before) not just skins.
I just had a new thought as to how this illustrates the diversity of the wants of this community. This is in no way an attack on you though Deck and I apologise if it is percieved as such.
The Klingons are decrying that the Federation gets three new ships when they only get one, while the anti-C-store people are complaining that there are two new ships on the store when there are none in game.
That just goes to show the complexities of things and the futility of trying to please everyone at the same time.
Comments
Season 2.0 refits, you get four ships, three feds and one klingon.
Lol, I hate them already for selling that game in three parts and telling the players they had to to make a whole game
Indeed, But for those of us with father's whom love Starcraft, We just put 2 copies of each on pre-order :P
And when you go to get that cake, the price is set, like Cryptic set the price of STO at 15 a month.
Now when you go to collect your cake and a whole layer is missing but the price remains the same, and the baker says you'll get that layer somewhere down the road or as an extra cost, you're going to be a bit miffed.
No one says they haven't improved the game, and they have, and I hope will continue to do so, but the whole nature of an MMO is that you have to make new content for people to keep subscribing in the first place. This is not a favour they do for you, it is the need to keep you around. If the Nebula (for ex) was available as a rare drop from one of the STFs, it would both give people something to do in game, and by definition keep them paying in order to get that item. With the C store, you buy it, fly around for a bit, and still have nowhere to go, so it's just as likely you don't re-up at the end of the month.
Well said, so by your own words, the C store doesn't fund the updates we all feel entitled to by our monthly sub.
Wouldn't you rather have your item as an accolade reward for some STF on hard mode in the future?
It is playable, you're right, and no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
That's not the customer's fault. To be blunt, if the developement team can't handle the job, they shouldn't be developing the game. And it's a fallacious argument anyway, since as you say, the C store part of the team could still continue to make their bits and pieces, and they would instead be loaded as content into the game structure.
Yes they do release an awful lot of stuff between paid expansions. Just in recent history, without going way back, the colleseum and Icecrown sprng to mind.
Not only are they new raids, similar I suppose to STFs, but they also comes with new tier itemisation, something STO does not have. MK X is Mk X, there is no timesink to gain new improved gear once you've upgraded. There is no improvement system such as gemming or enchanting to alter stats to make your character more unique.
Forget wow, and think Guild wars. I have (I think) 5 slots for my characters there. Each has about 10 heroes (like BOs) and I pay nothing per month at all for any of that.
I don't have a comment on that bit. That side of the argument doesn't really interest me in itself.
[quoteLearn the difference between need and want. Want means things that are desirable but that you can live without and your Star Trek Online experience will be in no way deminished by the absense of these extras. Needs are things that are game-breaking or changing that you cannot do without.[/QUOTE]
In a way you're right, if this wasn't the IP it is. The uniforms and ships are integral to Star Trek, and are what most people associate with the IP spanning 40 years. Leathery looking jackets and power ranger combat suits are not.
1) Allow us to spend some for mof in-game currency, such as Merits, to pay for C-Store items. Either to pay for them in full or to shave off half the price. Already there is precedent for this in-game... 20,000 Starfleet Merits/KDF Honor to pay to respend your Captain skills, and you can also purchase a Respec token in the C-Store.
2) Give us an in-game means to earn these rewards, perhaps tied to Accolades. Spend X-amount of time flying your Cruiser, and after a while, unlock one of the Cruiser costumes from the C-Store. Breed so many tribbles, and unlock the Tribble pet. Completion of difficult missions on Elite setting may earn you a different item, etc; the possibilities here are limitless.
3) Allow us to earn Cryptic Points in-game in some fashion. Perhaps every three months hand out 200-500 Cryptic points to every account, or tie them into Veteran rewards, or give us a couple by completing missions on Elite or doing Fleet Actions, or something.
All three of these together might be overkill, so I suggest taking one idea and running with it.
If we could earn these things in-game, there will be more incentive for people to play and strive for these rewards -- and thus hold onto their subscriptions longer (in effect, earning Cryptic more money through subscriptions). Those who want these items now and fork over their cash and pay for it through the C-Store.
Ah yes, We have stated each of these in some way shape or form throughout our discussion, but you have taken the best and summed it up. Quite nicely put
Yes, and thats usually a bad thing here. Locks come about once the heat gets turned up
I think the main threat of the store, is that, as it becomes more successful, it will start to usurp development priorities for the game. For so long as there is an economy in the game based on real-world currency that is officially sanctioned by the company itself, you are going to see this thing turn into a way for them to make a quick buck, at the expense of game play. More character slots? Thats understandable for C-STORE. But when you start putting pre-order items and things like ships on there... that is really a slap in the face to people who really want to support the game, jump in, and play.
There are a lot of FREE games online that require you to pay for all sorts of junk, or have an entire economy built into the game thats based on real-world cash (Second Life anyone?). This is where it could lead if the store gets out of control.
Theyve already said that thats the case. the quote from the MMO article essentially says that.
"without the CStore we wouldnt have it" argument
Confucius say, "Fear not he who has power, make him fear those who do not".
A wise parable, "A single man with a gun can be taken down by an unarmed man and his mind"
lol Ive seen it
Now I have nothing against you, nor do I want to argue, I am just telling you "how it is", so to speak.
1.) Yes this is a discussion forum, but it is divided into sub categories so that things aren't so disorderly. You are just cluttering things up by posting in the wrong area. try to be less disorganized in the future.
2.) It pays to investigate before making a purchase.....caveat emptor.
3.) It is here as it is, it will not be "drastically altered". And no, I took the time to read "your bloody post" you said (I will quote) "In all honesty, Abolish the C-Store." that does not mean "drastically alter"
4.) Hate rage all you want.... there is no advantage, sure they may be different, they may be something you want, but you said "advantage" give details (remember, I have only been playing since open beta and have seen nothing that would give an advantage....just different options). There is nothing that gives you an advantage in the C-store...THe moment they put something in that does give an advantage I will be right there with you screaming my head off about it....until then I will play the game and cruise the forums correcting people that need need it.
And I will go where I wish to go, and post where I will, Risk was great when I was a young boy, but I like to spend my time correcting people on the internet, now.
And I notice you neglected to answer the last question...(Do you write long winded letters to the cable company complaining about paying for their service but not getting all the PPV channels for free?) Which is exactly the same thing that you were complaining about with this game...
Seriously....Cryptic is a business, and a business does what it does to make money, giving everything away (no matter how much you want it) does not make them money.
Have a pleasant day
I could tell you some things, but I would be silenced IRL :P
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that you've bought the base cake. One that you paid for and that the baker has delivered. The 15/month is like paying the baker to come and pump cream filling into the cake while the C-store accoutrements are the cherries. There's nothing missing from the cake originally but you pay for the embellishments. It's interesting how far analogies will stretch. Some people would be willing to pay additional for the cherries on top. Some would say that a cake isn't a cake without cherries and demand that they be added at no extra cost and some would be happy with just a plain vanilla cake. See the parallel there?
I'd agree actually, except that rewards are not necessarily one thing or another. I suppose it could be said that a Nebula would motivate more people (and dStahl said he was pushing for something of the sort) but rewards could be something else and people would still work for it. Increased content is something that I would love to have. My personal view on STO is that it's a bit shallow and linear for me but I still come back to it because it is Star Trek after all.
Key point there is the future. If it was the future, how far into the future? This will suit people who want it sooner than that. Who knows, that far down the future, it might be taken down from the C-store and added to the game itself with new stuff in the C-store? Wouldn't that be ideal? The people who are willing to wait for content and are unwilling to pay for expedites will wait knowing that it will come out in due course, while those that want and can pay get it first.
But then who pays the extra developers. As I've said, if they can't pay the additional team, then no additional content. We'd just be getting what we've got now and nothing else.
EDIT: Perhaps some clarification is required. The impression I've gotten is that the C-store team is a team by itself, seperate from the main developers. Their rise and fall by no means afftects the game. What this means that in essence, you pay two teams for two parts of the game. Part A. Team A: The core game wtih your subscription that comes up with season updates. Part B Team B: The C-store items paid wth purchases that work exclusively on C-store items and have no affect on the core game at all.
That I do not know, seeing as I only played WoW for two months.
I can see where you're coming from but the simple fact is that it's done and it may change but will not be undone.
I like STO, it is fun and I like what the team at Cryptic is doing in regards to the updates. In reference to WoW, they provide updates similar to Cryptic's seasons between major expansions. Look at ICC for example since WOTLK they have seen several updates which included dungeons and what not.
Comcast and I have a mutual relationship, thanks for asking. In other news, I've had a splendid morning with the forums, and a good laugh at your insolence for quoting the wrong section of my OP. Above which I clearly stated a "Solution" outline. But my main vote remains to abolish it. Regardless, I shall re-edit upon my insights from this discussion.
Have a fantastic day
Either parallel works on the cake analogy, but specifically relating to Cryptic, you could argue that what we pay for in our subscriptions right now is sub par anyway to what was expected at launch. That's not to say though that they aren't making strides to put the game as it should be. Just remember though that you could either look at the upcomming season releases as more content, or as what should have been there in the first place.
It's like the public blindness towards budgets. If the government increase taxes 1 month, there's outcry. Six months down the line they decrease them back to their original level and the people cheer as if it's a great gift. What's forgotten is that they've gained absolutely nothing more than what they had in the first place.
Taking your next 2 points both together, it doesn't matter what the reward actually is. The point is, the existing items that are sold in the C store are good enough as rewards in game as they are. Not only that, but the things such as uniforms are actually pertinent to the game we're playing.
As far as the question of what exactly the future is, well there's a new STF coming up very shortly. No reason one of the ships being touted on the C store couldn't have been a reward or drop from that. The future is now :cool:
By the example you gave of amalgamation of devleopement and C store teams, there are no extra developers, and apparently none are needed. C store team make items- items go to content house-items are implemented into the game structure. That's exactly as it's done right now, but without the fleecing.
If you haven't played wow then you can't be expected to know what is and isn't added between paid expansions, so that's fair enough. Suffice to say though, the one thing blizzard is good at is keeping the players in the game, and paying for it. Some will say that' through the grind process, and I agree with that, but it works, and it's something we do not have here.
You didn't answer my point of comparison between Guild wars free storage of all the character data and the excuse here that it costs a lot to upkeep our STO data. Also add to that 6 years versus 6 months.
This isn't my argument, but I would like to dismiss this analogy -- just because someone is happy with a vanilla cake, doesn't necessarily mean everyone is -- or somehow preclude people who like other types of cakes.
Now, on to WoW.
Quoted from Wikipedia: "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of Warcraft on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the Warcraft franchise."
November 23, 2004, hmmmm so Blizzard has had 5 1/2 years to clear out bugs, add content, make expansions (which have sold for what, $50.00 U.S. per...$30.00, somewhere in between?), and generally polish a game to the product they have today?
Comparitively, STO has had roughly 5 months. less than 1/12 the time. Perhaps compare apples to apples?
I'm an EvE fan personally, yet I refuse to post "CCP has this and this and this in EvE, STO doesn't have that." for exactly the reason I cited above.
If you don't like the game, there's the wormhole. Don't let it close on your TRIBBLE on the way through. Please feel free to go make "Internet is for TRIBBLE", "Leroy Jenkins", or whatever fraps you choose to capture with your $15.00 monthly.
Do I think STO is perfect? No. Do I like the current C-store? No. Do I think there's going to be improvements over the next 5 years, while STO ages to WoW and EvE's current ages? That really goes without saying.
Thank you captain obvious, however, we were comparing apples to similar apples, but of different age. Your acronyms shall only lead to your downfall. Don't let the transwarp hub dissolve your matter on your way out.
You do have a point there I agree, but who decided what was going to be there originally and what wasn't? I don't remember there being a list of things that they asked us to approve. Fact is they developed a Star Trek MMO. We bought it and when we bought it, we decided that it was what we would consider an appropriate game. We did not buy it because we thought it was unfinished. If it was, we wouldn't have bought it. That part is done and over with. No one dangled the promised land in front of you or wheedled that the streets would be paved with gold FOC a year down the road. Sure, you can say that it was supposed to be Star Trek and it should have all those things in it. How far can that go? Are they supposed to go head over heels just to please everyone's view of Star Trek? Work slavishly to add the obscure details of a single episode to make it be Star Trek? In this case, this game should never have been made. Some parts of it don't gel with some people's definition of Trek.
Should haves are should haves. We made the decision in spite of the lack. You can't turn around now and say what if. We didn't even know these additions would be made at all. in any form, paid or unpaid. What's important is that it is being added. The how, that's a bit iffy, but not unreasonable.
If it was missing a crucial portion of the game, you should have waited. Buy and subscribe when you think it meets your definitions, not before. They can only persuade you to buy early, not force you to. No one said the game would not be available down the road when it had more content added.
No reason not to you say, but for the C-store, it would not even have been created, much less be the possibility for a reward drop. The uniforms and such are pertinent but are not significant to the game. Nothing is lost by you not being able to wear TNG uniforms. I would go as far to say as they may not be relevant to the game at all. The game is set 30 years down the road. Such uniforms would have been obsoleted. Even the Enterprise crew stopped wearing them. They are, in essence, no longer Star Trek.
The point about amalgamation is that they are two seperate teams. Having all free content would require the combination of two teams, meaning that half the bigger team will have to be paid for somehow. There are no extra developers. That is because the C-store team is currently paid for by C-store purchases. Would you support them giving away the C-store content but doubling the subscription fee to cover the remaining, not extra developers? Everything everywhere costs something, even if the costs are not percievable.
I could not answer that one as well because I haven't played Guild Wars as well. I'm sure they have their own business practices, but what works for one may not work for all. This again is about having your cake and eating it too. If everyone, everywhere were able to follow the ideals then there would be no diversity left, because everyone will be perfect.
That is precisely my point. That one side of the argument does not preclude the other. And "vanilla" is actually a term to describe baseline, not necessarily a flavour. It can be such but can also be the other
or Terra Nut Souffle on the C-store.
Forgive me. I have an odd craving for cake tonight.
I just had a new thought as to how this illustrates the diversity of the wants of this community. This is in no way an attack on you though Deck and I apologise if it is percieved as such.
The Klingons are decrying that the Federation gets three new ships when they only get one, while the anti-C-store people are complaining that there are two new ships on the store when there are none in game.
That just goes to show the complexities of things and the futility of trying to please everyone at the same time.