BarbarossaRotbart, you don't like his guide, you have made your complaints, he disagrees. You can't force him to change, so why don't you make your own guide on what you think is canon so others can use both,
Then you really misunderstood me. I like Blackavaar's guide, but there are some 'mistakes' he really should correct.
Currently I am reviewing DS9 for the upcoming Bajoran Militia guides. Memory Alpha seems a bit mixed up about which colors designate what, which I can understand since it is not really made entirely clear in the series. So, I have also borrowed a couple of books from the library and am studying those as well. My guides will be as accurate as possible.
The bajoran uniforms are really difficult, because it seems that some divisions have two different color combinations. It is only clear that there are six combinations:
- dark red/red (command, and normal militia officers)
- dark gray/gray (engineering, operations, but also normal militia officers)
- gray/green (engineering)
- beige/brown (security)
- yellow/brown (medical)
- orange/blue (medical)
Then you really misunderstood me. I like Blackavaar's guide, but there are some 'mistakes' he really should correct.
In your opinion, things are different than he thinks they are. He has already stated his ideas, you disagree with them and he isn't going to change them.
I was simply suggesting you make your own guide with your idea of what the Canon Uniforms would look like since you are so passionate about this.
@Blackavaar: patches, badges... That are semantics.
Tell that to a Naval Officer whose decorations those mission patches are based upon. Tell him that there is no difference between the bars on his sleeve and the decorations on his chest and see what happens.
:cool:
I think there's some confusion of the whole idea of Mission Patches, Assignment Patches, and Starbase Badges. From reading Blackavaar's recent posts, I believe what he's referring to when he says "Mission Patch" would probably be more accurately referred to as a Campaign Ribbon or Campaign Medal in the modern day real world. Essentially these are ribbons or medals saying that the officer was there for this specific conflict or war with very few if any of these medals and ribbons being awarded for peace time missions (at least there were very few the last time I checked any site that claimed to have a list, mostly Wikipedia).
Now, BarbarossaRotbart, I think is referring to the Assignment Patches, that arrowhead we see on the crew of the Enterprise's normal everyday uniforms. These patches say what ship the officer is assigned to RIGHT NOW as opposed to what campaigns he's been involved in before. In practice, the Assignment Patches appear to have the exact same function as the Starbase Badges, telling anyone who knows what these badges and patches mean where the officer is stationed now.
Hopefully, this is an accurate assessment on what both sides actually meant in that argument over patches and badges. If so, it should clear things up quite a bit.
...I must however thank Barbarossa. I did enjoy the discussion even if it did irritate me at times. It was challenging and it did get me to re-examine some of my conclusions.
Whenever the devs update the WoK uniforms I will consider Barbarossa's points again...
...Currently I am reviewing DS9 for the upcoming Bajoran Militia guides...
DS9 was one of the series I watched the least (wasn't watching much TV at the time, have yet to go back and watch videos)... I can't even picture what the Bajoran Militia looks like... Still, looking forward to new costumes, whatever they may be.
In your opinion, things are different than he thinks they are. He has already stated his ideas, you disagree with them and he isn't going to change them.
I was simply suggesting you make your own guide with your idea of what the Canon Uniforms would look like since you are so passionate about this.
Do I really have to repeat myself?
The TWOK uniform, Blackavaar calls junior officer uniform, is not a junior officer uniform but a cadet uniform, because we can see a lot of ensigns and lieutenants in all movies who do not wear red but other colors (Lieutenant JG Saavik in TSFS wore white, Ensign Demora Sulu in GEN wore yellow, 'Mr. Adventure', a lieutenant j.g. in TSFS, wore blue (making him not a communications officer but a special service officer), Kirk's yeoman in TFF (a lieutenant j.g.) wore grey and no other ensign or lieutenant except the cadets in TWOK and the first scenes of TSFS wore red.
His TWOK science uniform should include navigation, as can be seen on Chekov after TVH.
His TWOK tactical unifrom should be the same as the engineering and helm uniform.
His TWOK enlisted should not include security, but we cannot recreate the enlisted uniform, because collar, arm band and shoulder strap all have the same color (but in the movies enlisted have a black collar and arm band and shoulder taps in the color of their department). Commissioned security officers should have collar, arm band and shoulder strap in dark green.
His TMP security uniform should be removed because we cannot recreate the armor (which is brown and not grey) worn above the white jumpsuit.
The rest of his guide is IMO wonderful and correct. So there is really no need for me to create a guide of my own.
...
Now, BarbarossaRotbart, I think is referring to the Assignment Patches, that arrowhead we see on the crew of the Enterprise's normal everyday uniforms. These patches say what ship the officer is assigned to RIGHT NOW as opposed to what campaigns he's been involved in before. In practice, the Assignment Patches appear to have the exact same function as the Starbase Badges, telling anyone who knows what these badges and patches mean where the officer is stationed now.
Yes, that is exactly that I meant. An assignment patch always shows where the officer wearing it is assigned to, now. In TMP only Epsilon IX has a different patch than all other officers assigned either to Earth of the Enterprise.
EDIT: I looked at the scene with the security officers in TSFS (because it is running on TV now) and saw that arm band and collar of both officers is dark green and not black. But they wore red trousers making them enlisted.
Do I really have to repeat myself?
The TWOK uniform, Blackavaar calls junior officer uniform, is not a junior officer uniform but a cadet uniform, because we can see a lot of ensigns and lieutenants in all movies who do not wear red but other colors...
I think you might have misunderstood the designation of Junior Officer in my guide. What is meant by that is these these are junior officers in Command Training. If you notice at the Starfleet Bar on Earth most of the cadets wear black collars and red pants like enlisted crewmen. Only Command Training Cadets wear red collars and black pants. This is why Savek's collar changes from red in WoK to White in SFS. It is assumed that she graduated in the time between the two films. Maybe I should have been more clear in that designation.
Again, I will consider your points when it comes time to update those guides.
Thanks!
Edit: I have updated the aforementioned designation to be more clear.
Do I really have to repeat myself?
The TWOK uniform, Blackavaar calls junior officer uniform, is not a junior officer uniform but a cadet uniform, because we can see a lot of ensigns and lieutenants in all movies who do not wear red but other colors (Lieutenant JG Saavik in TSFS wore white, Ensign Demora Sulu in GEN wore yellow, 'Mr. Adventure', a lieutenant j.g. in TSFS, wore blue (making him not a communications officer but a special service officer), Kirk's yeoman in TFF (a lieutenant j.g.) wore grey and no other ensign or lieutenant except the cadets in TWOK and the first scenes of TSFS wore red.
His TWOK science uniform should include navigation, as can be seen on Chekov after TVH.
His TWOK tactical unifrom should be the same as the engineering and helm uniform.
His TWOK enlisted should not include security, but we cannot recreate the enlisted uniform, because collar, arm band and shoulder strap all have the same color (but in the movies enlisted have a black collar and arm band and shoulder taps in the color of their department). Commissioned security officers should have collar, arm band and shoulder strap in dark green.
His TMP security uniform should be removed because we cannot recreate the armor (which is brown and not grey) worn above the white jumpsuit.
The rest of his guide is IMO wonderful and correct. So there is really no need for me to create a guide of my own.
And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and he disagrees.
I merely suggested you make your own guide to put how you think it should be or choose not to use it.
I'm sorry if that bothers you, but he has stated he isn't going to change his guide so I was merely giving you a friendly solution, I'm sorry if that makes you upset.
I think you might have misunderstood the designation of Junior Officer in my guide. What is meant by that is these these are junior officers in Command Training.
As far as I know Junior Officers are the collective name for all ensigns, lieutenant j.g. and lieutenants. Senior officers are leiutenant commander, commander, captain and commodore (yes, a commodore is not a flag officer!). Flag officers are rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral and fleet admiral.
If you notice at the Starfleet Bar on Earth most of the cadets wear black collars and red pants like enlisted crewmen.
Are you sure that those a cadets? And not enlisted and petty officers? Forget the picture of Picard as cadet in NEm, that is clearly a costume error, because all cadets and trainees wear red and never black. Give me one reason wh y a cadet wears the uniform on a non-com? If they have a red collar those are trainees otherwise they have to bee crewmen or petty officers.
Only Command Training Cadets wear red collars and black pants.
Are you sure? Why should a command training cadet wear a different unifrom than any other cadet? Wearing adifferent uniform than an enliusted trainee makes much more sense.
This is why Savek's collar changes from red in WoK to White in SFS. It is assumed that she graduated in the time between the two films. Maybe I should have been more clear in that designation.
TSFS taes place only days after TWOK, so must have been the same kind of graduation Nog received in the sixth season of DS9.
As far as I know Junior Officers are the collective name for all ensigns, lieutenant j.g. and lieutenants. Senior officers are leiutenant commander, commander, captain and commodore (yes, a commodore is not a flag officer!).
Actually, I must correct myself. I remember why I made that distinction now. I just checked and the young officer that asks Admiral Kirk about a ceremony for their arrival at the beginning of TSFS is wearing a Lieutenant Junior Grade pin on his shoulder. "Mister" Saavik can be seen wearing the same pin here. Neither were cadets and Saavik was simply promoted to full Lieutenant after Wrath of Khan.
I also checked the Security Officers again. You were right. They are indeed a very dark green. But they are darker than those of the security officers seen later. Also, they appear to be wearing large red boots with steel toes. These notations will be added when the guides are updated.
By the time of TFF however those collars and boots were obviously changed and the leather football helmets and hockey padding was removed entirely.
Are you sure that those a cadets? And not enlisted and petty officers?
Considering that one young man playing a video game can be seen wearing a Petty Officer second class pin on his sleeve stripe, while another young woman petting tribbles can be seen wearing no pin at all, I'm pretty sure. It appears that cadets and enlisted wear the same uniforms to me.
This, of course, is contradicted later in the TNG series, which appears to use the divisional colors to show the particular career track the cadets are on.
See? You've got me looking more closely now.
Edit: Oh, and the reason I concluded that red is specific to Command Training is because another Lieutenant Junior Grade can be seen wearing Sciences and Communications gray when he is forced into a closet by Uhura at phaser point.
As far as I know Junior Officers are the collective name for all ensigns, lieutenant j.g. and lieutenants. Senior officers are leiutenant commander, commander, captain and commodore (yes, a commodore is not a flag officer!). Flag officers are rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral and fleet admiral.
Commodore is a flag rank. It's the equivalent of a one star (Brigadier) General. The question is slightly confused by the US Navy's use of the Rank as a position AND a rank, as well as the change to "Lower Half."
That said, your assessment is more or less correct. Junior Officers would be any officer from Ensign to Lt. Commander (naval tradition says a Lt. Commander is a Lieutenant with Commander's authority). Senior Officers would be Commanders and Captains (and in practice, Department Heads would be considered "Senior Officers" regardless of actual rank). Flag Officers are any officers allowed to have their own flag - all the ranks of the Admiralty, from Commodore (Rear Admiral Lower Half in the US) to Admiral.
Considering that one young man playing a video game can be seen wearing a Petty Officer second class pin on his sleeve stripe, while another young woman petting tribbles can be seen wearing no pin at all, I'm pretty sure. It appears that cadets and enlisted wear the same uniforms to me.
I've looked again. There were three characters wearing the enlisted jumpsuit in that bar. Of the first one we cannot see his rank insignia, so he could be anything from crewman to master chief, other two both wear petty officer rank insignia, so none of them is a trainee or cadet.
Edit: Oh, and the reason I concluded that red is specific to Command Training is because another Lieutenant Junior Grade can be seen wearing Sciences and Communications gray when he is forced into a closet by Uhura at phaser point.
A lieutenant j.g. is not a cadet. BTW most officers and enlisted on the Enterprise in TWOK wore red straps. And according to Flechter's note they are cadets and trainees. 'Mister Adventure' in TSFS has already graduated, so it is only natural that he wears the color of his department.
Commodore is a flag rank. It's the equivalent of a one star (Brigadier) General. The question is slightly confused by the US Navy's use of the Rank as a position AND a rank, as well as the change to "Lower Half."
A commodore is equal to a brigadier (who is not a general) and a brigadier general (who is a general).The use of raer admiral, lower half in the US Navy comes from the fact that a commodore is not a flag officer. Until 1899 the US Navy had no admirals. Commodores and flag officers were captains in a temporary position. In 1899 all commodores were promoted to rear admiral (a two star admiral). But the lower half of the rear admirals on the seniority list received the same pay as a brigadier general in the Army. In 1943 rank of commodore has been reactivated, but after 1947 no officer was promoted to that rank and in 1950 the last commodores were promoted to rear admiral. In 1982 the 1 star admiral rank of commodore admiral was created, only to be renamed into commodore and later in rear admiral, lower half, because commodore was used as a position since 1950. Since then the rear admiral, lower half exists as a rank with an insignia of its own.
BTW in the Royal Navy commodore became a substantive rank in 1996. Until then it was just an appointment for a captain, who returned to his former rank after his time as commodore was up.
BTW a commodore never flew his own flag but only a pennant.
That said, your assessment is more or less correct. Junior Officers would be any officer from Ensign to Lt. Commander (naval tradition says a Lt. Commander is a Lieutenant with Commander's authority). Senior Officers would be Commanders and Captains (and in practice, Department Heads would be considered "Senior Officers" regardless of actual rank). Flag Officers are any officers allowed to have their own flag - all the ranks of the Admiralty, from Commodore (Rear Admiral Lower Half in the US) to Admiral.
The Lieutenant Commander is only a junior officer in the US Navy in most other Navys they belong to the senior officers. The same applies to the commodore.
BTW it would be much better if cryptic renames the rear admiral lower half into commodore, because that rank fits much better into the universe than a modern, US-only construct with no real naval tradition.
BTW production nates from TNG show us that the rank of commodore did not exist during TNG and that the rear admiral with two groups gold framed bars of two pips each was the lowest admiral rank. It makes sense, because Picard commanding the blockade fleet had the position of commodore (but not the title or rank) during the Klingon Civil War. And Sisko was also a Commodore in all but name as commander of the allied fleet during Operation Return.
BTW it would be much better if cryptic renames the rear admiral lower half into commodore, because that rank fits much better into the universe than a modern, US-only construct with no real naval tradition
When Season Two was still in testing, and the Rear Admiral Lower Half was simply Rear Admiral Cryptic told us the rank was to be renamed Rear Admiral Lower, and the new rank for the next five levels was to be called Rear Admiral Upper Half. At the time, many a forum goer argued for Cryptic to rename Rear Admiral as Commodore and have the new rank be called Rear Admiral so as to avoid confusion over these two ranks. Many cited the use of the rank of Commodore as a Flag Officer in the Original Series as evidence the rank had been used before and that it could be used again (this also proves that the rank of Commodore is a Flag Officer and not a Senior Officer when used in Star Trek regardless of what you have said, but that's another topic). Cryptic did not listen then, they will not listen to this argument now.
Also, while from an in-universe perspective it might make sense for the rank of Commodore to be used instead of Rear Admiral Lower Half due to traditions of the planet Earth as a whole, the point falls apart in a production stand-point. Star Trek is an American made franchise, with most of it's writers, costume designers, editors and producers being American citizens and it's target audience also being American citizens. As such, it is written so that it's military and government structure is based on the American military and government. This is done for two reasons, one being it's what the writers, costume designers, etc. know and two being that it's what it's target audiences will find familiar. It cuts out much of the exposition of explaining that the rank of Royal Guard is equivalent to Lieutenant Commander and that Honorary Knight is the same as Captain when simply using these ranks will give the audience an intuitive cue as to who reports to who and it saves the writers having to keep cross-checking with one another to make sure they keep the rank structure intact.
Disclaimer: Both ranks of Royal Guard and Honorary Knight were completely made up for illustrative purposes, and any similarity (if any actually exists) in name or actual position to any nation's military is purely coincidental.
Two things:
1. They should listen to the fans.
2. Star Trek may be an American show, but I've read that the starfleet ranks were designed after the british system and not the americansystem. (dsadly, I cannot remember where I read it.)
If a commodore is a flag officer or a senior officer does not really matter. In TOS, ENT and the movies a commodore wore the same type of uniform as an admiral. In TNG, DS9 and VOY that rank did not exist, as production nates cleraly show that the lowest admiral rank was the 2 star rear admiral. And it makes sense if you look at the rank insignia.
I've looked again. There were three characters wearing the enlisted jumpsuit in that bar. Of the first one we cannot see his rank insignia, so he could be anything from crewman to master chief, other two both wear petty officer rank insignia, so none of them is a trainee or cadet.
Are you sure you are looking at the rank pin (on the colored sleeve stripe) and not the button clasp above? Look more closely at the Petty Officer playing the video game.
A lieutenant j.g. is not a cadet. BTW most officers and enlisted on the Enterprise in TWOK wore red straps. And according to Flechter's note they are cadets and trainees. 'Mister Adventure' in TSFS has already graduated, so it is only natural that he wears the color of his department.
I already said that they were not cadets. And most? Are you sure? In my review just yesterday I only saw two red collars in both WoK and SFS, both were Lieutenant Junior Grade, which confirms that they were not cadets but Junior Officers.
Now please, enough of this. Any further notes you have should be PMed directly to me and I will take them into consideration. Players do not visit this thread to read long winded discussions. They visit it to see new costume guides. Three new Off Duty guides will be added soon. In addition I am also working on Section 31 guides for both the TNG and DS9 uniforms.
The Canon Uniforms have been moved to their own page in order to make room for future additions. Click on the Canon Uniforms link in the Index above to go to that page.
Notice that I've labeled these as per the usual positions the colors were used to designate in the shows and movies, not by the generalized Tactical, Engineering and Science careers they are used to designate in game.
Note: Due to limited color choices and lack of certain details, these uniforms may not appear perfectly accurate with canon. However, within the constraints of the game, they are as close as you can possibly get. All uniforms have been tested in various lighting environments in the game in order to insure the most accurate color choices possible.
For those that crave more accuracy, I use a Dell E198WFP Monitor with the Color preset Normal. My Color Profile is sRGB IEC61966-2.1. These are the standard settings for most PCs and Monitors.
Enjoy!
This is a fun guide.
I might use it as a guide for some of my characters. :cool:
Out of curiosity, do you think you could try making some 25th Century Dress Uniform Variants? :cool:
I could if we had any Dress Uniforms for the 25th Century. Currently the closest we have is the Veteran Uniform or is that what you meant?
:cool:
Yes, that is part what I meant.
However, another part of what I meant is simply taking some of the B-Type 25th Century Uniforms and coming up with Dress Uniform Configurations, using the TNG Movie Dress Uniforms from Insurrection and Nemesis as templates.
However, another part of what I meant is simply taking some of the B-Type 25th Century Uniforms and coming up with Dress Uniform Configurations, using the TNG Movie Dress Uniforms from Insurrection and Nemesis as templates.
Think you'd be up for trying that? :cool:
Sure, I'll give it some thought after my current projects are finished, and of course, after the Bajoran Militia uniforms.
A Canon Bridges listing has also been added. This will show you which bridges are closest to fitting with their actual canon counterparts. While some of these may not actually be canon, they give that canon feeling when used with the proper ships.
Sorry, but IMO some of your suggestion do not really fit.
Standard/Uttility: this is not even similiar to the bridge of the Reliant.
Cruiser/Classic: two chairs are missing, so the Prototype version with its three chairs is a much better fit.
Miranda: It would use this bridge for the Nebula-class and not the Miranda-class (see TNG " Redemption").
Galaxy/Justice: This is not the bridge of the Sovereign-class, one of the sovereign bridges should fit.
Sorry, but IMO some of your suggestion do not really fit.
Standard/Uttility: this is not even similiar to the bridge of the Reliant.
As noted in the key (Yellow), it's close enough to give a feeling of canon without actually being canon. Basically this one was chosen for its size and color tones. There is no canon Reliant bridge available.
Cruiser/Classic: two chairs are missing, so the Prototype version with its three chairs is a much better fit.
True, but Prototype only becomes available at Captain rank, while Classic is available at Lt. Commander. Classic is chosen so that lower level players can find something that may fill in until they get something better.
Miranda: It would use this bridge for the Nebula-class and not the Miranda-class (see TNG " Redemption").
Again this was chosen for size and tone as there is no really accurate bridge.
Galaxy/Justice: This is not the bridge of the Sovereign-class, one of the sovereign bridges should fit.
The Sovereign bridges look nothing like the Enterprise E bridge though. Until something better is added, the Justice bridge is really the closest in style.
Then you used the wrong color from some suggestions:
- Miranda/*: Those bridges can be used for the Nebula-class because in atleast one Episode the bridge of a Nebula-class vessel looked like this.
- Miranda/Gamma: should be yellow and not green, because the Miranda-class bridge (like the refit-Constitution-class bridges (four different designs from TMP-TSFS, TVH, TFF & TUC) and the Excelsior-class bridges (three different designs from TSFS, TUC & GEN) do not exist yet.
- Galaxy/Order: this is the Enterprise-D bridge from GEN (and not TNG)
- Galaxy/Jusice: this should also be yellow, because that is not the Sovereign-class bridge from the movies
- Prometheus/*: This bridges are based on the bridge of the USS Prometheus
Then you used the wrong color from some suggestions:
- Miranda/*: Those bridges can be used for the Nebula-class because in atleast one Episode the bridge of a Nebula-class vessel looked like this.
- Miranda/Gamma: should be yellow and not green, because the Miranda-class bridge (like the refit-Constitution-class bridges (four different designs from TMP-TSFS, TVH, TFF & TUC) and the Excelsior-class bridges (three different designs from TSFS, TUC & GEN) do not exist yet.
- Galaxy/Order: this is the Enterprise-D bridge from GEN (and not TNG)
- Galaxy/Jusice: this should also be yellow, because that is not the Sovereign-class bridge from the movies
- Prometheus/*: This bridges are based on the bridge of the USS Prometheus
Dude, I work with what they give me. The only truly accurate bridge we have is the new TOS bridge.
I've been looking for a how-to topic giving instructions on how to create a seven of nine-like character in star trek online, but I just can't find anything giving me good information i can use at the character creator. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope
Some designs are very accurate. Correct me if I am wrong, but the layout of the Order bridge in the Galaxy pack is the same design we saw in GEN.
Correct, though much more widely spaced in the game version. Also, the upper displays of the LCARS along the sides are way too tall and completely inaccurate. The same can be said about the Defiant pack bridges. Hopefully these will be reworked with as much accuracy as the new TOS bridge someday.
I've been looking for a how-to topic giving instructions on how to create a seven of nine-like character in star trek online, but I just can't find anything giving me good information i can use at the character creator. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope
Well, you'd have to either have a liberated borg character (playable for lifers, or a BO can be C Store purchased, or comes with the Amazon versions of the game - last check, they were going pretty cheap) OR you can buy the 7 of 9 costume pack, and give any (female) character her borg attachments and catsuit.
Comments
Then you really misunderstood me. I like Blackavaar's guide, but there are some 'mistakes' he really should correct.
The bajoran uniforms are really difficult, because it seems that some divisions have two different color combinations. It is only clear that there are six combinations:
- dark red/red (command, and normal militia officers)
- dark gray/gray (engineering, operations, but also normal militia officers)
- gray/green (engineering)
- beige/brown (security)
- yellow/brown (medical)
- orange/blue (medical)
I hope that this helps.
In your opinion, things are different than he thinks they are. He has already stated his ideas, you disagree with them and he isn't going to change them.
I was simply suggesting you make your own guide with your idea of what the Canon Uniforms would look like since you are so passionate about this.
I think there's some confusion of the whole idea of Mission Patches, Assignment Patches, and Starbase Badges. From reading Blackavaar's recent posts, I believe what he's referring to when he says "Mission Patch" would probably be more accurately referred to as a Campaign Ribbon or Campaign Medal in the modern day real world. Essentially these are ribbons or medals saying that the officer was there for this specific conflict or war with very few if any of these medals and ribbons being awarded for peace time missions (at least there were very few the last time I checked any site that claimed to have a list, mostly Wikipedia).
Now, BarbarossaRotbart, I think is referring to the Assignment Patches, that arrowhead we see on the crew of the Enterprise's normal everyday uniforms. These patches say what ship the officer is assigned to RIGHT NOW as opposed to what campaigns he's been involved in before. In practice, the Assignment Patches appear to have the exact same function as the Starbase Badges, telling anyone who knows what these badges and patches mean where the officer is stationed now.
Hopefully, this is an accurate assessment on what both sides actually meant in that argument over patches and badges. If so, it should clear things up quite a bit.
Well said, Sir!
DS9 was one of the series I watched the least (wasn't watching much TV at the time, have yet to go back and watch videos)... I can't even picture what the Bajoran Militia looks like... Still, looking forward to new costumes, whatever they may be.
The TWOK uniform, Blackavaar calls junior officer uniform, is not a junior officer uniform but a cadet uniform, because we can see a lot of ensigns and lieutenants in all movies who do not wear red but other colors (Lieutenant JG Saavik in TSFS wore white, Ensign Demora Sulu in GEN wore yellow, 'Mr. Adventure', a lieutenant j.g. in TSFS, wore blue (making him not a communications officer but a special service officer), Kirk's yeoman in TFF (a lieutenant j.g.) wore grey and no other ensign or lieutenant except the cadets in TWOK and the first scenes of TSFS wore red.
His TWOK science uniform should include navigation, as can be seen on Chekov after TVH.
His TWOK tactical unifrom should be the same as the engineering and helm uniform.
His TWOK enlisted should not include security, but we cannot recreate the enlisted uniform, because collar, arm band and shoulder strap all have the same color (but in the movies enlisted have a black collar and arm band and shoulder taps in the color of their department). Commissioned security officers should have collar, arm band and shoulder strap in dark green.
His TMP security uniform should be removed because we cannot recreate the armor (which is brown and not grey) worn above the white jumpsuit.
The rest of his guide is IMO wonderful and correct. So there is really no need for me to create a guide of my own.
Yes, that is exactly that I meant. An assignment patch always shows where the officer wearing it is assigned to, now. In TMP only Epsilon IX has a different patch than all other officers assigned either to Earth of the Enterprise.
EDIT: I looked at the scene with the security officers in TSFS (because it is running on TV now) and saw that arm band and collar of both officers is dark green and not black. But they wore red trousers making them enlisted.
I think you might have misunderstood the designation of Junior Officer in my guide. What is meant by that is these these are junior officers in Command Training. If you notice at the Starfleet Bar on Earth most of the cadets wear black collars and red pants like enlisted crewmen. Only Command Training Cadets wear red collars and black pants. This is why Savek's collar changes from red in WoK to White in SFS. It is assumed that she graduated in the time between the two films. Maybe I should have been more clear in that designation.
Again, I will consider your points when it comes time to update those guides.
Thanks!
Edit: I have updated the aforementioned designation to be more clear.
:cool:
And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and he disagrees.
I merely suggested you make your own guide to put how you think it should be or choose not to use it.
I'm sorry if that bothers you, but he has stated he isn't going to change his guide so I was merely giving you a friendly solution, I'm sorry if that makes you upset.
Actually, I must correct myself. I remember why I made that distinction now. I just checked and the young officer that asks Admiral Kirk about a ceremony for their arrival at the beginning of TSFS is wearing a Lieutenant Junior Grade pin on his shoulder. "Mister" Saavik can be seen wearing the same pin here. Neither were cadets and Saavik was simply promoted to full Lieutenant after Wrath of Khan.
I also checked the Security Officers again. You were right. They are indeed a very dark green. But they are darker than those of the security officers seen later. Also, they appear to be wearing large red boots with steel toes. These notations will be added when the guides are updated.
By the time of TFF however those collars and boots were obviously changed and the leather football helmets and hockey padding was removed entirely.
Considering that one young man playing a video game can be seen wearing a Petty Officer second class pin on his sleeve stripe, while another young woman petting tribbles can be seen wearing no pin at all, I'm pretty sure. It appears that cadets and enlisted wear the same uniforms to me.
This, of course, is contradicted later in the TNG series, which appears to use the divisional colors to show the particular career track the cadets are on.
See? You've got me looking more closely now.
Edit: Oh, and the reason I concluded that red is specific to Command Training is because another Lieutenant Junior Grade can be seen wearing Sciences and Communications gray when he is forced into a closet by Uhura at phaser point.
:cool:
Commodore is a flag rank. It's the equivalent of a one star (Brigadier) General. The question is slightly confused by the US Navy's use of the Rank as a position AND a rank, as well as the change to "Lower Half."
That said, your assessment is more or less correct. Junior Officers would be any officer from Ensign to Lt. Commander (naval tradition says a Lt. Commander is a Lieutenant with Commander's authority). Senior Officers would be Commanders and Captains (and in practice, Department Heads would be considered "Senior Officers" regardless of actual rank). Flag Officers are any officers allowed to have their own flag - all the ranks of the Admiralty, from Commodore (Rear Admiral Lower Half in the US) to Admiral.
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A lieutenant j.g. is not a cadet. BTW most officers and enlisted on the Enterprise in TWOK wore red straps. And according to Flechter's note they are cadets and trainees. 'Mister Adventure' in TSFS has already graduated, so it is only natural that he wears the color of his department.
A commodore is equal to a brigadier (who is not a general) and a brigadier general (who is a general).The use of raer admiral, lower half in the US Navy comes from the fact that a commodore is not a flag officer. Until 1899 the US Navy had no admirals. Commodores and flag officers were captains in a temporary position. In 1899 all commodores were promoted to rear admiral (a two star admiral). But the lower half of the rear admirals on the seniority list received the same pay as a brigadier general in the Army. In 1943 rank of commodore has been reactivated, but after 1947 no officer was promoted to that rank and in 1950 the last commodores were promoted to rear admiral. In 1982 the 1 star admiral rank of commodore admiral was created, only to be renamed into commodore and later in rear admiral, lower half, because commodore was used as a position since 1950. Since then the rear admiral, lower half exists as a rank with an insignia of its own.
BTW in the Royal Navy commodore became a substantive rank in 1996. Until then it was just an appointment for a captain, who returned to his former rank after his time as commodore was up.
BTW a commodore never flew his own flag but only a pennant. The Lieutenant Commander is only a junior officer in the US Navy in most other Navys they belong to the senior officers. The same applies to the commodore.
BTW it would be much better if cryptic renames the rear admiral lower half into commodore, because that rank fits much better into the universe than a modern, US-only construct with no real naval tradition.
BTW production nates from TNG show us that the rank of commodore did not exist during TNG and that the rear admiral with two groups gold framed bars of two pips each was the lowest admiral rank. It makes sense, because Picard commanding the blockade fleet had the position of commodore (but not the title or rank) during the Klingon Civil War. And Sisko was also a Commodore in all but name as commander of the allied fleet during Operation Return.
When Season Two was still in testing, and the Rear Admiral Lower Half was simply Rear Admiral Cryptic told us the rank was to be renamed Rear Admiral Lower, and the new rank for the next five levels was to be called Rear Admiral Upper Half. At the time, many a forum goer argued for Cryptic to rename Rear Admiral as Commodore and have the new rank be called Rear Admiral so as to avoid confusion over these two ranks. Many cited the use of the rank of Commodore as a Flag Officer in the Original Series as evidence the rank had been used before and that it could be used again (this also proves that the rank of Commodore is a Flag Officer and not a Senior Officer when used in Star Trek regardless of what you have said, but that's another topic). Cryptic did not listen then, they will not listen to this argument now.
Also, while from an in-universe perspective it might make sense for the rank of Commodore to be used instead of Rear Admiral Lower Half due to traditions of the planet Earth as a whole, the point falls apart in a production stand-point. Star Trek is an American made franchise, with most of it's writers, costume designers, editors and producers being American citizens and it's target audience also being American citizens. As such, it is written so that it's military and government structure is based on the American military and government. This is done for two reasons, one being it's what the writers, costume designers, etc. know and two being that it's what it's target audiences will find familiar. It cuts out much of the exposition of explaining that the rank of Royal Guard is equivalent to Lieutenant Commander and that Honorary Knight is the same as Captain when simply using these ranks will give the audience an intuitive cue as to who reports to who and it saves the writers having to keep cross-checking with one another to make sure they keep the rank structure intact.
Disclaimer: Both ranks of Royal Guard and Honorary Knight were completely made up for illustrative purposes, and any similarity (if any actually exists) in name or actual position to any nation's military is purely coincidental.
1. They should listen to the fans.
2. Star Trek may be an American show, but I've read that the starfleet ranks were designed after the british system and not the americansystem. (dsadly, I cannot remember where I read it.)
If a commodore is a flag officer or a senior officer does not really matter. In TOS, ENT and the movies a commodore wore the same type of uniform as an admiral. In TNG, DS9 and VOY that rank did not exist, as production nates cleraly show that the lowest admiral rank was the 2 star rear admiral. And it makes sense if you look at the rank insignia.
Are you sure you are looking at the rank pin (on the colored sleeve stripe) and not the button clasp above? Look more closely at the Petty Officer playing the video game.
I already said that they were not cadets. And most? Are you sure? In my review just yesterday I only saw two red collars in both WoK and SFS, both were Lieutenant Junior Grade, which confirms that they were not cadets but Junior Officers.
Now please, enough of this. Any further notes you have should be PMed directly to me and I will take them into consideration. Players do not visit this thread to read long winded discussions. They visit it to see new costume guides.
Three new Off Duty guides will be added soon. In addition I am also working on Section 31 guides for both the TNG and DS9 uniforms.
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This is a fun guide.
I might use it as a guide for some of my characters. :cool:
Out of curiosity, do you think you could try making some 25th Century Dress Uniform Variants?
I could if we had any Dress Uniforms for the 25th Century. Currently the closest we have is the Veteran Uniform or is that what you meant?
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Yes, that is part what I meant.
However, another part of what I meant is simply taking some of the B-Type 25th Century Uniforms and coming up with Dress Uniform Configurations, using the TNG Movie Dress Uniforms from Insurrection and Nemesis as templates.
Think you'd be up for trying that? :cool:
Sure, I'll give it some thought after my current projects are finished, and of course, after the Bajoran Militia uniforms.
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Sorry, but IMO some of your suggestion do not really fit.
Standard/Uttility: this is not even similiar to the bridge of the Reliant.
Cruiser/Classic: two chairs are missing, so the Prototype version with its three chairs is a much better fit.
Miranda: It would use this bridge for the Nebula-class and not the Miranda-class (see TNG " Redemption").
Galaxy/Justice: This is not the bridge of the Sovereign-class, one of the sovereign bridges should fit.
As noted in the key (Yellow), it's close enough to give a feeling of canon without actually being canon. Basically this one was chosen for its size and color tones. There is no canon Reliant bridge available.
True, but Prototype only becomes available at Captain rank, while Classic is available at Lt. Commander. Classic is chosen so that lower level players can find something that may fill in until they get something better.
Again this was chosen for size and tone as there is no really accurate bridge.
The Sovereign bridges look nothing like the Enterprise E bridge though. Until something better is added, the Justice bridge is really the closest in style.
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- Miranda/*: Those bridges can be used for the Nebula-class because in atleast one Episode the bridge of a Nebula-class vessel looked like this.
- Miranda/Gamma: should be yellow and not green, because the Miranda-class bridge (like the refit-Constitution-class bridges (four different designs from TMP-TSFS, TVH, TFF & TUC) and the Excelsior-class bridges (three different designs from TSFS, TUC & GEN) do not exist yet.
- Galaxy/Order: this is the Enterprise-D bridge from GEN (and not TNG)
- Galaxy/Jusice: this should also be yellow, because that is not the Sovereign-class bridge from the movies
- Prometheus/*: This bridges are based on the bridge of the USS Prometheus
Dude, I work with what they give me. The only truly accurate bridge we have is the new TOS bridge.
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Correct, though much more widely spaced in the game version. Also, the upper displays of the LCARS along the sides are way too tall and completely inaccurate. The same can be said about the Defiant pack bridges. Hopefully these will be reworked with as much accuracy as the new TOS bridge someday.
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Well, you'd have to either have a liberated borg character (playable for lifers, or a BO can be C Store purchased, or comes with the Amazon versions of the game - last check, they were going pretty cheap) OR you can buy the 7 of 9 costume pack, and give any (female) character her borg attachments and catsuit.