I know, but if they had used a design more closely to the prte-TOS era, it would have looked unrealistic and anachronistic.
I still consider it part of the alternate reality, I don't even have a problem with a different style, but a lot of their choices were really poor. Blue for command for example.
Even those are easy to recreate, because most of them are similiar to the normal TOS uniforms. You only have to use the TOS medical tunic and nurse split skirt for the short sleeved female uniform, and the normal tunic and split skirt for the long sleeved version. And use the standard badges.
I know, but are we allowed since it is Paramount property? If so, I'd like for him to make a guide for them, he's quite good at it.
I know, but in two cases he made poor choices. The first one is the use of the complete TWOk officers uniform to emulate the TWOK enlisted jumpsuit. The second is the TMP security uniform which should not be different than the other uniforms, because there is no way we coul drecreate the body armor security officers wore in TMP.
I disagree, under the circumstances, I think he made the best possible choices to emulate those. I like them and I think he has done the best job at utilizing them. Nobody is forcing you to use them, ignore them if you don't like them.
I still consider it part of the alternate reality, I don't even have a problem with a different style, but a lot of their choices were really poor. Blue for command for example.
Wrong. We only seen one officer below Lieutenant Commander (except the Lieutenant in "The Savage Curtain", but that can clearly been interpreted as costume error, because he wore the same uniform as Scotty) and that was Lt. Areel Shaw. She wore the female version of the Lieutenant Dress Uniform.
Okay, upon reviewing Savage Curtain, Menagerie and Court Martial I have determined that you are still incorrect.
1. Lieutenant Shaw is wearing a Starbase 11 badge, not a mission patch. In TOS the Delta was actually specific to Enterprise crew. Other ships and starbases had their own badges. That is one of them. The same badge can be seen being worn on various starbase personnel, including Commodore Stone, in the same episode. Rank braids also only ever appear on the female Dress Uniform, likely because as a lawyer assigned to a starbase, Areel Shaw did not acquire any mission patches and therefor it was the only way to denote her rank.
2. Lieutenant Shaw's female Dress Uniform also has gold piping along the collar.
3. In addition to Areel Shaw, there is another unnamed Lieutenant seen in Court Martial. He is standing next to the Commodores on the bridge at the end of the episode. He is obviously a Security escort and cannot be a Lieutenant Commander as achieving that rank would make him head of Security and therefor he would not be relegated to escort duty.
Therefor Dickerson's Dress Uniform is not a mistake and the designation I have given Dress Uniform 3 as being both the Lieutenant and Lt. Commander uniform is correct.
In addition, in Court Martial there are several other Commodores seen with Stone. Only Stone wears the variant you say is the correct Commodore Dress Uniform. The other Commodores all appear in Dress Uniform 1. This is further confirmed by the appearance of Commodore Jose I. Mendez in Menagerie, who again wears Dress Uniform 1. This leads me to conclude that Commodore Stone, not every other Commodore, is wearing a variant because he is the presiding officer at the Court Martial. No other Commodore is seen wearing that uniform again during the series.
Therefor my designation of Dress Uniform 1 as being Captain and Commodore uniform is also correct.
Also, I have concluded that Dress Badge 5 is indeed a Cryptic original made with a combination of both Scotty's and Dickerson's mission patches. The devs likely assumed that including Scotty's would incite players to complain about the lack of a Scarf and Kilt to go with it and assumed that if they made Dickerson's many players would mistake it for Scotty's and make the same complaints.
My point was that, in my opinion, that was too big a change for no real reason. They could have just as easily made him gold, the others red, and then the medical blue.
Shades of the same basic color don't bother me, but I thought this was totally out of place.
The movie era makes some sense to me as a Starfleet experiment into dividing divisions more. It ended up too complex so they switched back and flipped Command and Operations.
I see, you're referring to the crew of the Kelvin. I didn't catch that initially. As far as I'm concerned, I discount anything I saw in that pile of steaming, big, beefy bear chunks. Like Star Trek V, it never happened (my take on things).
I mean, the Kelvin crew are even all wearing the Enterprise badge. Remember, the incident with the Kelvin happened before any timeline changes (the attack was the first change), so that ship should have been following established canon (which had different badges for different ships, and uniforms like Pike wore in The Cage).
Okay, upon reviewing Savage Curtain, Menagerie and Court Martial I have determined that you are still incorrect.
1. Lieutenant Shaw is wearing a Starbase 11 badge, not a mission patch. In TOS the Delta was actually specific to Enterprise crew. Other ships and starbases had their own badges. That is one of them. The same badge can be seen being worn on various starbase personnel, including Commodore Stone, in the same episode. Rank braids also only ever appear on the female Dress Uniform, likely because as a lawyer assigned to a starbase, Areel Shaw did not acquire any mission patches and therefor it was the only way to denote her rank.
Lt. Shaw was the JAG officer for Starbase 11, so her assigment patch would be that of Starbase 11.
3. In addition to Areel Shaw, there is another unnamed Lieutenant seen in Court Martial. He is standing next to the Commodores on the bridge at the end of the episode. He is obviously a Security escort and cannot be a Lieutenant Commander as achieving that rank would make him head of Security and therefor he would not be relegated to escort duty.
Therefor Dickerson's Dress Uniform is not a mistake and the designation I have given Dress Uniform 3 as being both the Lieutenant and Lt. Commander uniform is correct.
That changes only one thing: that a Lieutenant wears the same dress uniform as a Lieutenant Commander but he wears his assigment patch instead of his decorations. So Dickerson's uniform is still a costume error, or he was really a Leitenant Commander, then it would have been a script error.
In addition, in Court Martial there are several other Commodores seen with Stone. Only Stone wears the variant you say is the correct Commodore Dress Uniform. The other Commodores all appear in Dress Uniform 1. This is further confirmed by the appearance of Commodore Jose I. Mendez in Menagerie, who again wears Dress Uniform 1. This leads me to conclude that Commodore Stone, not every other Commodore, is wearing a variant because he is the presiding officer at the Court Martial. No other Commodore is seen wearing that uniform again during the series.
Therefor my designation of Dress Uniform 1 as being Captain and Commodore uniform is also correct.
The other officers in the court martial were captains and not commodores. And it would be illogical that there were four commodore present on a simple Starbase. The reason for Commodore Mendez wearing a captain's dress uniform is a simple costume error which can be explained that they had created only a commodore's dress uniform in red, but a green one was needed, so they simply reused the one worn by one of the two captains of the command division.
I see, you're referring to the crew of the Kelvin. I didn't catch that initially. As far as I'm concerned, I discount anything I saw in that pile of steaming, big, beefy bear chunks. Like Star Trek V, it never happened (my take on things).
I mean, the Kelvin crew are even all wearing the Enterprise badge. Remember, the incident with the Kelvin happened before any timeline changes (the attack was the first change), so that ship should have been following established canon (which had different badges for different ships, and uniforms like Pike wore in The Cage).
Well, the attack on the USS Kelvin happened in 2233, Pike's mission on Thalos IV was in 2253 (Thridteen years before the first season of TOS), so it is wuite probable that the uniform was different. Between 2269 and 2279 the style of the uniform had been changed twice, the same happened between 2266 and 2273. Although in both cases you can argue that one of the changes was a simple retcon (which BTW was Roddenberry's opinion on the topic regarding the TMP uniforms and the look of the klingons and the Enterprise).
I see, you're referring to the crew of the Kelvin. I didn't catch that initially. As far as I'm concerned, I discount anything I saw in that pile of steaming, big, beefy bear chunks. Like Star Trek V, it never happened (my take on things).
I mean, the Kelvin crew are even all wearing the Enterprise badge. Remember, the incident with the Kelvin happened before any timeline changes (the attack was the first change), so that ship should have been following established canon (which had different badges for different ships, and uniforms like Pike wore in The Cage).
I totally agree on the case of it making no sense that it is the prime timeline.
However, I kinda like the movie so my simple explanation is that is an alternate timeline before they show up, they just alter it even more.
It is never specifically stated it is the prime timeline when they show up.
But I'm getting a bit off topic.
I really like the mockups of the Cage style uniforms, I really wish they would make me in game
We the release of the d'kyr and the possiblility of a purely vulcan ship crew any one have or had any ideas on possible uniforms for a Vulcan Science ship crew?
I'd be very grateful for any ideas peeps have.
We the release of the d'kyr and the possiblility of a purely vulcan ship crew any one have or had any ideas on possible uniforms for a Vulcan Science ship crew?
I'd be very grateful for any ideas peeps have.
Well, my all Vulcan crew uses the T'Pol jumpsuit for females and the All Good Things uniform for males in warm gray and divisional colors with white trim. It's completely improvised though and has no basis in canon. Here's a screen shot.
Lt. Shaw was the JAG officer for Starbase 11, so her assigment patch would be that of Starbase 11.
And is made from the same fabric as thze other dress uniforms.
That changes only one thing: that a Lieutenant wears the same dress uniform as a Lieutenant Commander but he wears his assigment patch instead of his decorations. So Dickerson's uniform is still a costume error, or he was really a Leitenant Commander, then it would have been a script error.
The other officers in the court martial were captains and not commodores. And it would be illogical that there were four commodore present on a simple Starbase. The reason for Commodore Mendez wearing a captain's dress uniform is a simple costume error which can be explained that they had created only a commodore's dress uniform in red, but a green one was needed, so they simply reused the one worn by one of the two captains of the command division.
It's a starbase badge, not a mission patch. It is worn on standard uniforms by all Starbase 11 personnel. And no mission patches ever seen during the series are that big. They are a combination of tiny patches and pins representing the various honors the officers have received, not simple badges.
Seeing two Lieutenants wearing the same uniform with gold piping makes it pretty clear that it is not a mistake.
And the fact that no other Commodore wears Stone's version again during the entire series? Seems to me more likely that Stone's was a special case uniform and every other Commodore's uniform seen were not mistakes.
It is obvious that you are not going to accept anything except what is written in whatever websites you are reading. I did the actual research. I watched the episodes myself and further confirmed my results with the book Star Trek: The Original Series by Paula M. Block and Terry J. Erdman. I didn't depend on something someone else wrote on the interwebs. I am content that I am right and you are wrong. If you don't like my choices feel free to ignore them. I will argue about these items with you no longer.
Thank you for the new TOS and EMH guides. I literally spent hours playing around with my character's costumes last night. Using your guides to give her the canon costumes, but also making a couple minor variants.
This particular character (Danica Pym) has now used-up all the costumes slots I've purchased. I think I counted that she's got 41 uniforms... :cool: So many that the list goes top to bottom, I want to get more, but I'm worried they won't scroll and I won't be able to change into them on the fly. Heh. I guess I'll find out once the Tax Day Sale comes 'round and I buy some more slots...
I digress, but the point I'm trying to make is that while I was adding I had to take away a couple of old variants to make room... And while I was reviewing her existing costumes I noticed her DS9 and Voyager Canon costumes were colored wrong. After consulting your guides it seems the undershirt gray color got swapped with the divisional "top-quarter/shoulder" color. An easy enough fix, but was that changed by the game at some point?
I sure wish there was a way I could organize my costume list order... At least Cryptic could make them ordered alphanumerically. That would be cool... :rolleyes:
Thank you for the new TOS and EMH guides. I literally spent hours playing around with my character's costumes last night. Using your guides to give her the canon costumes, but also making a couple minor variants.
This particular character (Danica Pym) has now used-up all the costumes slots I've purchased. I think I counted that she's got 41 uniforms... :cool: So many that the list goes top to bottom, I want to get more, but I'm worried they won't scroll and I won't be able to change into them on the fly. Heh. I guess I'll find out once the Tax Day Sale comes 'round and I buy some more slots...
I digress, but the point I'm trying to make is that while I was adding I had to take away a couple of old variants to make room... And while I was reviewing her existing costumes I noticed her DS9 and Voyager Canon costumes were colored wrong. After consulting your guides it seems the undershirt gray color got swapped with the divisional "top-quarter/shoulder" color. An easy enough fix, but was that changed by the game at some point?
I sure wish there was a way I could organize my costume list order... At least Cryptic could make them ordered alphanumerically. That would be cool... :rolleyes:
Anyway, thanks again!
Yes, when the devs updated the uniforms they realigned the DS9 uniform colors to coincide with the TNG Film uniform colors, even though it makes more sense that the colors would affect the proper areas when changing between the two uniforms. I noted this when I updated the guides.
And yes, I too wish that drag and drop tech was added to both costume slots and character slots (on the selection screen). It would make it much easier to keep things organized. As it is I currently have to save and reload previous costumes to keep them in the order I like. And when switching characters I have to hop on and off repeatedly to keep them organized by rank and faction whenever I play different characters.
I figure they'll eventually get to these little QoL improvements. Right now they have bigger fish to fry.
It's a starbase badge, not a mission patch. It is worn on standard uniforms by all Starbase 11 personnel. And no mission patches ever seen during the series are that big. They are a combination of tiny patches and pins representing the various honors the officers have received, not simple badges.
:rolleyes: A starbase ptach is an assignment patch, because the person who wears that patch is assigned to that particular starbase!
Seeing two Lieutenants wearing the same uniform with gold piping makes it pretty clear that it is not a mistake.
:rolleyes: The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.
And the fact that no other Commodore wears Stone's version again during the entire series? Seems to me more likely that Stone's was a special case uniform and every other Commodore's uniform seen were not mistakes.
:rolleyes:
The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background.
It is obvious that you are not going to accept anything except what is written in whatever websites you are reading. I did the actual research. I watched the episodes myself and further confirmed my results with the book Star Trek: The Original Series by Paula M. Block and Terry J. Erdman. I didn't depend on something someone else wrote on the interwebs. I am content that I am right and you are wrong. If you don't like my choices feel free to ignore them. I will argue about these items with you no longer.
The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
:rolleyes: A starbase ptach is an assignment patch, because the person who wears that patch is assigned to that particular starbase!
:rolleyes: The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.
:rolleyes:
The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background.
The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
As far as the dress uniforms go, it looks to me like they're set up as Junior Officer (Ens-LtCdr.)/Senior Officer (Cdr)/Command Officer (Capt+).
As far as the dress uniforms go, it looks to me like they're set up as Junior Officer (Ens-LtCdr.)/Senior Officer (Cdr)/Command Officer (Capt+).
That was the rank insignia policy during the two pilots, and even during the first season of TOS they had a similiar policy (Ensign/crewmen, Lieutenant J.G., Lietenant, Department Head, First Officer, Captain, Commodore), because Spock was referred to as Lietenant Commander during the first season but wore the rank insignia of a full Commander.
If you consider Dickerson's uniform as a costume error, which would not be so out of place considering that the third season was very weak and had a very smal budget. BTW Scotty only wore in that seaon a kilt to his dress uniform.
I think that the TOS dress uniform should be:
- Ensign to Lieutenant Commander, with the Lieutenant Commander wearing no rank insignia and no assignment patch but his decorations instead.
- Commander
- Captain
- Commodore (only seen once)
- Admiral (not seen in the show)
That was the rank insignia policy during the two pilots, and even during the first season of TOS they had a similiar policy (Ensign/crewmen, Lieutenant J.G., Lietenant, Department Head, First Officer, Captain, Commodore), because Spock was referred to as Lietenant Commander during the first season but wore the rank insignia of a full Commander.
If you consider Dickerson's uniform as a costume error, which would not be so out of place considering that the third season was very weak and had a very smal budget. BTW Scotty only wore in that seaon a kilt to his dress uniform.
I think that the TOS dress uniform should be:
- Ensign to Lieutenant Commander, with the Lieutenant Commander wearing no rank insignia and no assignment patch but his decorations instead.
- Commander
- Captain
- Commodore (only seen once)
- Admiral (not seen in the show)
That Spock might be called Lt. Commander but be wearing the braid of a full Commander might be explained by the military tradition of "brevetting" and officer to a higher rank during a time of service (such as wartime). In essence, he would be a Commander in all ways until his service concludes, and then revert ot his original rank. For example, George S. Patton was a Captain during WW I, but was brevetted to Colonel, with all the responsibility and authority that entailed. When the war ended, he reverted to Captain.
I know, but that's a modern explanation for Spock's rank and rank insignia during the first season and it does not explain the rank insignia of the first two pilots. In "The Cage" all officer wore the same rank insignia (a single stripe), a chief wore a 'hollow stripe' and all crewmen wore nothing. With "Where No Man Has Gone Before" the captain gained a second stripe as rank insignia.
A starbase ptach is an assignment patch, because the person who wears that patch is assigned to that particular starbase!
The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.
The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background.
The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
No, a starbase BADGE is not an assignment patch. It is worn in place of assignment patches on officers who have not achieved any.
And Dickerson was also Chief of Security, which could account for his mission patches. Or did you not think of that?
Further confirmation that the Captain Dress Uniform was also proper canon for Commodores via Memory Alpha, Commodore Robert April. True it's from the Animated Series, but Memory Alpha itself lists it.
Memory Alpha is also still a wiki that can be edited and re-edited by anyone with an account, while a hardback book cannot. And the book doesn't say that those officers were Captains or Commodores, btw. That was my own mistake and I am willing to admit that one.
That's it. I'm done arguing. It's a guide, not the end all be all and not restricted by or made to adhere to anyone's definition of canon. I create and designate costume parts as best I can with the materials and colors I have available. In some cases there is not much else I can do. Since there is no alternate version of a Commodore Dress Uniform or a Lieutenant Dress Uniform, I have designated the ones we have as being appropriate to be worn as such since they can be seen being worn as such in the series. Deal with it and move on. Stop pestering.
I know, but that's a modern explanation for Spock's rank and rank insignia during the first season and it does not explain the rank insignia of the first two pilots. In "The Cage" all officer wore the same rank insignia (a single stripe), a chief wore a 'hollow stripe' and all crewmen wore nothing. With "Where No Man Has Gone Before" the captain gained a second stripe as rank insignia.
What's wrong with the three stripe system? Enlisted with the hollow stripe, officers with one, commanding officer with two. Works for me. Rank would be less important than position in that system.
No, a starbase BADGE is not an assignment patch. It is worn in place of assignment patches on officers who have not achieved any..
Semantics. In my opinion all those patches worn by the starfleet officers are assignment patches, because they tell us the current assignment of those officers that can either be a specific department of a starship (like the Enterprise) or a starbase. The great differnce is that only starships have different assigment patches for each department. All planetary/starbase personal wear the same assignment patch (see all the Commodores and Admirals in TOS).
And Dickerson was also Chief of Security, which could account for his mission patches. Or did you not think of that?.
Or he was due for a promotion (to lieutenant commander) and was allowed to wear the lieutenant commander stripes befor his promotion becomes official. The same happened IMHO to Spock during the first season (being a lieutenant commander but wearing commander stripes).
Further confirmation that the Captain Dress Uniform was also proper canon for Commodores via Memory Alpha, Commodore Robert April. True it's from the Animated Series, but Memory Alpha itself lists it..
TAS has many problem, especially uniform colors. So we really do not know if this was an error or a mistake or intention.
Memory Alpha is also still a wiki that can be edited and re-edited by anyone with an account, while a hardback book cannot. And the book doesn't say that those officers were Captains or Commodores, btw. That was my own mistake and I am willing to admit that one.
.
I know, that this is big problem of any wiki, but it is also the great strength of a wiki, because that way mistakes can be removed much faster than in any book, where you have to wait for the next edition that may never be published. Using the discussion feature is also very helpful in order to remove errors and mistakes.
What's wrong with the three stripe system? Enlisted with the hollow stripe, officers with one, commanding officer with two. Works for me. Rank would be less important than position in that system.
Semantics. In my opinion all those patches worn by the starfleet officers are assignment patches, because they tell us the current assignment of those officers that can either be a specific department of a starship (like the Enterprise) or a starbase. The great differnce is that only starships have different assigment patches for each department. All planetary/starbase personal wear the same assignment patch (see all the Commodores and Admirals in TOS).
This argument is purely opinion, and as such is not a valid argument on how the assignment patches and starbase badges works.
Or he was due for a promotion (to lieutenant commander) and was allowed to wear the lieutenant commander stripes befor his promotion becomes official. The same happened IMHO to Spock during the first season (being a lieutenant commander but wearing commander stripes).
This is speculation and as such is not a valid argument on the use of Dress Uniforms, their assignment patches/starbase badges and rank braids. This is further compounded by using an opinion as support, making this argument doubly invalid.
TAS has many problem, especially uniform colors. So we really do not know if this was an error or a mistake or intention.
This argument is of the "I'm right, therefore anything you say that disagrees with me is an invalid argument" variety and as such is invalid in determining how the Dress Uniforms should work.
I know, that this is big problem of any wiki, but it is also the great strength of a wiki, because that way mistakes can be removed much faster than in any book, where you have to wait for the next edition that may never be published. Using the discussion feature is also very helpful in order to remove errors and mistakes.
This IS a valid argument about what is and is not a good source material for canon. It is filled with nothing but statements that can be proven or dis-proven.
This is also a valid argument about the use of rank braids as it contains nothing but information that can be proven or dis-proven. However, it can be strengthened by adding in examples and references to illustrate your point.
This argument is purely opinion, and as such is not a valid argument on how the assignment patches and starbase badges works.
Really? What do we know? We know that the crew of a starship wears a distinctive patch based on vessel (we know about the patches of the Enterprise, the Exeter, the Defiant, the Constellation and the Antares) and on department (command, science and operations). We know that all other officers wear the same patch (see Mendez, Stocker, Stone, Wesley, Shaw, Fitzgerald, Piper, Barstow, a cadet, a lieutenant etc). That suggests that all officers not assigned to a starship wear the same patch, making this their assignment patch.
An intersting fact is that many officers (in most cases nameless extras) not assigned to the Enterprise did wear the Enterprise patch.
This is speculation and as such is not a valid argument on the use of Dress Uniforms, their assignment patches/starbase badges and rank braids. This is further compounded by using an opinion as support, making this argument doubly invalid.
But it explains, why a lieutenant wears the same dress uniform as a lieutenant commander and a lieutenant commander wears a different rank insignia than two other lieutenant commanders.
That, or we have several cases of costume error (regarding Spock's rank insignia in the first season).
But two other lieutenant commanders (Giotto, Finney) also wore the two full stripes of a commander...
This argument is of the "I'm right, therefore anything you say that disagrees with me is an invalid argument" variety and as such is invalid in determining how the Dress Uniforms should work.
No, it is not. TAS has many problems. Some are of the legal kind (Kzinti), others are contradiction to information of later episodes (holodecks, force fields instead of spacesuits), and some are based on the fact that the producer was color blind. It is told that Roddenberry himself demanded that TAS is removed from Trek canon and that he would have made several things different in that show if he had known that Star Trek will continue after that.
It is an argument to stop the discussion because we cannot find out if this was a mistake or an intention.
This IS a valid argument about what is and is not a good source material for canon. It is filled with nothing but statements that can be proven or dis-proven.
But books about Trek are also not a good source, especially if they are written by someone who was not a member of the production staff, even if they were members of the staff, they are not prone to making mistakes (see the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology).
The problem with a wiki is, if someone writes something without mentioning a source you cannot prove if that is correct, but the same can be said about books.
This is also a valid argument about the use of rank braids as it contains nothing but information that can be proven or dis-proven. However, it can be strengthened by adding in examples and references to illustrate your point.
If the stripes were just a way to illustrate the position, than we should not have a lieutenant j.g. and a lot less lieutenants, because then a single stripe would mean that the officer is the head of a smaller department like communication or navigation. But all the information from the show suggests that the stripes illustrate a rank and not a position. And even then we have many costume errors: unnamed commanders and lieutenant commanders (example 1, example 2, example 3).
Really? What do we know? We know that the crew of a starship wears a distinctive patch based on vessel (we know about the patches of the Enterprise, the Exeter, the Defiant, the Constellation and the Antares) and on department (command, science and operations). We know that all other officers wear the same patch (see Mendez, Stocker, Stone, Wesley, Shaw, Fitzgerald, Piper, Barstow, a cadet, a lieutenant etc). That suggests that all officers not assigned to a starship wear the same patch, making this their assignment patch.
An intersting fact is that many officers (in most cases nameless extras) not assigned to the Enterprise did wear the Enterprise patch.
But it explains, why a lieutenant wears the same dress uniform as a lieutenant commander and a lieutenant commander wears a different rank insignia than two other lieutenant commanders.
That, or we have several cases of costume error (regarding Spock's rank insignia in the first season).
But two other lieutenant commanders (Giotto, Finney) also wore the two full stripes of a commander...
No, it is not. TAS has many problems. Some are of the legal kind (Kzinti), others are contradiction to information of later episodes (holodecks, force fields instead of spacesuits), and some are based on the fact that the producer was color blind. It is told that Roddenberry himself demanded that TAS is removed from Trek canon and that he would have made several things different in that show if he had known that Star Trek will continue after that.
It is an argument to stop the discussion because we cannot find out if this was a mistake or an intention.
But books about Trek are also not a good source, especially if they are written by someone who was not a member of the production staff, even if they were members of the staff, they are not prone to making mistakes (see the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology).
The problem with a wiki is, if someone writes something without mentioning a source you cannot prove if that is correct, but the same can be said about books.
If the stripes were just a way to illustrate the position, than we should not have a lieutenant j.g. and a lot less lieutenants, because then a single stripe would mean that the officer is the head of a smaller department like communication or navigation. But all the information from the show suggests that the stripes illustrate a rank and not a position. And even then we have many costume errors: unnamed commanders and lieutenant commanders (example 1, example 2, example 3).
I believe you misinterpreted the meaning behind my post. I did not post in order to say you were wrong, or that Blackavaar was wrong. I was attempting to show you the problems with your own arguments. In the post I originally quoted, you had started with a comment on the differences between starbase badges and assignment patches that I agree with, but you rendered it moot as an argument because you stated the entire argument was your OPINION. Opinions by their very nature cannot be proven or dis-proven even if the idea stated in them is correct. Example if I stated Obama was president because IN MY OPINION he won the 2008 election, then my argument would be rendered invalid because I am stating an opinion. That Obama did in fact win the election means nothing when I state that his winning is my opinion.
After that you went into speculation about the dress uniforms and how certain parts of them play out. Speculation is not a valid argument because you are filling in blanks with information might not be correct.
The way you worded your argument over the TAS lead me to what was apparently an incorrect conclusion you were trying to say you were right and Blackavaar was wrong. If you're trying to admit Blackavaar's argument can be right just as easily as it can be wrong, it is a good way to drop the topic.
The last two points I had said were completely valid arguments. I included them to show I was not saying all your arguments are bad ones.
Actually, if you watch closely, you can see that though the starbase badges are very similar there are differences depending on the particular base. Note how Areel Shaw's badge (Starbase 11) has a star-like shape in the middle with an indentation in the center, while Charles Stocker's badge (Starbase 10) is completely circular with no indentation. This difference unfortunately is not listed on Memory Alpha, though it should be. It is noted in the book I am referring to and can be clearly seen if you actually watch the shows yourself, which I always do when researching for my guides. You see, I research and cross reference various sources. I do not depend on a single one. Which is why I believe that though the conclusions I come to may be my opinion in some cases, they are more accurate than your opinions.
And you keep on calling them patches. They are badges, not patches. Yes, they are sewn on but they are still badges and are not to be confused with mission patches, which are a completely different thing. Badges denote the particular ship or starbase an officer is assigned to, while mission patches denote the honors they have received and the battles they have fought in.
Mission patches are also completely separated from rank in that though officers of higher rank obviously will have achieved more mission patches over the course of their careers, they do not necessarily have to be of a certain rank to have achieved them in the first place and are actually the cause for them being promoted at a later time. This means that both the instances of Spock in Season One and Dickerson in Season Three are not mistakes because they do not necessarily have to have been of a certain rank in order to have achieved those honors and were likely near promotion because of those honors at the time of those episodes.
I wonder why Dickersons patches can cause such a fuzz. As I recall, you all agreed that those triangular patches on dress uniforms represent commendations and decorations. Although it might seem unlikely to some people, still the possibility remains that a mere Lieutenant may have received as many commendations as as Lieutenant Commander. Frankly, I see no logical reason why he shouldnt have more than a Lieutenant Commander.
Concerning all other discussion-points, I can see where you all are coming from. But please consider this: Star Trek is just a television show. Furthermore, the Original Series has been a television show that had been produced with a budget that would hardly be enough to produce it properly for radio (and not television). So they had to cut corners, and they had to recycle and reuse Everything (Yes folks, that everything with capital E!).
In essence: Dickersons uniform was actually Scottys uniform from a previous episode. So were many other uniforms.
In essence: There are irregularities in canon - severe ones. Although I dont agree with every little detail of Blackavaars guide, I believe he comes pretty close to what we have seen on screen, considering the tools Cryptic has offered to us as of now. However, close is not exact. But no-one can exactly reproduce those uniforms in a manner that reflects the irregularities in canon. So I must conclude that any »guide to canon colors« will remain a close approximation that will leave points open for discussion. I hardly heard anyone complain about the fact that ST:Os class A and class B uniforms were never seen on screen and therefore can not be canon. *g*
As Blackavaar has put it in his previous post: Everything presented here is a proposal. You are totally free to equip your crew with uniforms that you see fit (and I have seen some really terrible variations out there ).
So, Mr. Blackavaar, as theres almost a complete week until the release of those bajoran uniforms, why dont you show us some of your un-cannon work?
@Blackavaar: patches, badges... That are semantics. BTW I've never used the word mission patch, I always wrote assignment patch.
@gorillakhan: You are right. TOS had a budget so small that they really had to cut corners. That's the reason they reused the Enterprise assignment patches for non-Enterprise personnel, uniforms and props. And that's the reason so many 'costume errors' exist.
Most of Blackavaar's proposals are good, in a few cases he made mistakes. For TOS those mistakes are debatable, for TMP we see that production notes regarding the uniforms are not always followed, but for the TWOK uniforms those mistakes are clearly mistakes because Flechter's notes were followed in the three movies he was responsible for the uniforms. Only TFF with a new color for security and TUC with the totaly wrong uniform color and rank insignia for Valeris did not follow those notes.
@Blackavaar: patches, badges... That are semantics.
Tell that to a Naval Officer whose decorations those mission patches are based upon. Tell him that there is no difference between the bars on his sleeve and the decorations on his chest and see what happens.
You both have different opinions, and you each interpret things differently.
Blackavaar, you have an awesome guide and I hope you keep on making it that awesome
BarbarossaRotbart, you don't like his guide, you have made your complaints, he disagrees. You can't force him to change, so why don't you make your own guide on what you think is canon so others can use both,
You both have different opinions, and you each interpret things differently.
Blackavaar, you have an awesome guide and I hope you keep on making it that awesome
BarbarossaRotbart, you don't like his guide, you have made your complaints, he disagrees. You can't force him to change, so why don't you make your own guide on what you think is canon so others can use both,
I agree. I will no longer argue. I must however thank Barbarossa. I did enjoy the discussion even if it did irritate me at times. It was challenging and it did get me to re-examine some of my conclusions.
Whenever the devs update the WoK uniforms I will consider Barbarossa's points again. Until then I am not changing anything as I do not like the current belt and do not want to use it in my guide.
Currently I am reviewing DS9 for the upcoming Bajoran Militia guides. Memory Alpha seems a bit mixed up about which colors designate what, which I can understand since it is not really made entirely clear in the series. So, I have also borrowed a couple of books from the library and am studying those as well. My guides will be as accurate as possible.
Comments
I still consider it part of the alternate reality, I don't even have a problem with a different style, but a lot of their choices were really poor. Blue for command for example.
I know, but are we allowed since it is Paramount property? If so, I'd like for him to make a guide for them, he's quite good at it.
I disagree, under the circumstances, I think he made the best possible choices to emulate those. I like them and I think he has done the best job at utilizing them. Nobody is forcing you to use them, ignore them if you don't like them.
It should not be a problem, because all other uniforms are also Paramount (now CBS) property.
Okay, upon reviewing Savage Curtain, Menagerie and Court Martial I have determined that you are still incorrect.
1. Lieutenant Shaw is wearing a Starbase 11 badge, not a mission patch. In TOS the Delta was actually specific to Enterprise crew. Other ships and starbases had their own badges. That is one of them. The same badge can be seen being worn on various starbase personnel, including Commodore Stone, in the same episode. Rank braids also only ever appear on the female Dress Uniform, likely because as a lawyer assigned to a starbase, Areel Shaw did not acquire any mission patches and therefor it was the only way to denote her rank.
2. Lieutenant Shaw's female Dress Uniform also has gold piping along the collar.
3. In addition to Areel Shaw, there is another unnamed Lieutenant seen in Court Martial. He is standing next to the Commodores on the bridge at the end of the episode. He is obviously a Security escort and cannot be a Lieutenant Commander as achieving that rank would make him head of Security and therefor he would not be relegated to escort duty.
Therefor Dickerson's Dress Uniform is not a mistake and the designation I have given Dress Uniform 3 as being both the Lieutenant and Lt. Commander uniform is correct.
In addition, in Court Martial there are several other Commodores seen with Stone. Only Stone wears the variant you say is the correct Commodore Dress Uniform. The other Commodores all appear in Dress Uniform 1. This is further confirmed by the appearance of Commodore Jose I. Mendez in Menagerie, who again wears Dress Uniform 1. This leads me to conclude that Commodore Stone, not every other Commodore, is wearing a variant because he is the presiding officer at the Court Martial. No other Commodore is seen wearing that uniform again during the series.
Therefor my designation of Dress Uniform 1 as being Captain and Commodore uniform is also correct.
Also, I have concluded that Dress Badge 5 is indeed a Cryptic original made with a combination of both Scotty's and Dickerson's mission patches. The devs likely assumed that including Scotty's would incite players to complain about the lack of a Scarf and Kilt to go with it and assumed that if they made Dickerson's many players would mistake it for Scotty's and make the same complaints.
:cool:
I have seen Star Trek before.
My point was that, in my opinion, that was too big a change for no real reason. They could have just as easily made him gold, the others red, and then the medical blue.
Shades of the same basic color don't bother me, but I thought this was totally out of place.
The movie era makes some sense to me as a Starfleet experiment into dividing divisions more. It ended up too complex so they switched back and flipped Command and Operations.
ST XI's seemed too random and out of place.
No, they aren't. Cryptic can't make the 2009 uniforms because Paramount and CBS are seperate entitites.
I mean, the Kelvin crew are even all wearing the Enterprise badge. Remember, the incident with the Kelvin happened before any timeline changes (the attack was the first change), so that ship should have been following established canon (which had different badges for different ships, and uniforms like Pike wore in The Cage).
Well, the attack on the USS Kelvin happened in 2233, Pike's mission on Thalos IV was in 2253 (Thridteen years before the first season of TOS), so it is wuite probable that the uniform was different. Between 2269 and 2279 the style of the uniform had been changed twice, the same happened between 2266 and 2273. Although in both cases you can argue that one of the changes was a simple retcon (which BTW was Roddenberry's opinion on the topic regarding the TMP uniforms and the look of the klingons and the Enterprise).
I totally agree on the case of it making no sense that it is the prime timeline.
However, I kinda like the movie so my simple explanation is that is an alternate timeline before they show up, they just alter it even more.
It is never specifically stated it is the prime timeline when they show up.
But I'm getting a bit off topic.
I really like the mockups of the Cage style uniforms, I really wish they would make me in game
I'd be very grateful for any ideas peeps have.
Well, my all Vulcan crew uses the T'Pol jumpsuit for females and the All Good Things uniform for males in warm gray and divisional colors with white trim. It's completely improvised though and has no basis in canon. Here's a screen shot.
:cool:
It's a starbase badge, not a mission patch. It is worn on standard uniforms by all Starbase 11 personnel. And no mission patches ever seen during the series are that big. They are a combination of tiny patches and pins representing the various honors the officers have received, not simple badges.
Seeing two Lieutenants wearing the same uniform with gold piping makes it pretty clear that it is not a mistake.
And the fact that no other Commodore wears Stone's version again during the entire series? Seems to me more likely that Stone's was a special case uniform and every other Commodore's uniform seen were not mistakes.
It is obvious that you are not going to accept anything except what is written in whatever websites you are reading. I did the actual research. I watched the episodes myself and further confirmed my results with the book Star Trek: The Original Series by Paula M. Block and Terry J. Erdman. I didn't depend on something someone else wrote on the interwebs. I am content that I am right and you are wrong. If you don't like my choices feel free to ignore them. I will argue about these items with you no longer.
:cool:
Thank you for the new TOS and EMH guides. I literally spent hours playing around with my character's costumes last night. Using your guides to give her the canon costumes, but also making a couple minor variants.
This particular character (Danica Pym) has now used-up all the costumes slots I've purchased. I think I counted that she's got 41 uniforms... :cool: So many that the list goes top to bottom, I want to get more, but I'm worried they won't scroll and I won't be able to change into them on the fly. Heh. I guess I'll find out once the Tax Day Sale comes 'round and I buy some more slots...
I digress, but the point I'm trying to make is that while I was adding I had to take away a couple of old variants to make room... And while I was reviewing her existing costumes I noticed her DS9 and Voyager Canon costumes were colored wrong. After consulting your guides it seems the undershirt gray color got swapped with the divisional "top-quarter/shoulder" color. An easy enough fix, but was that changed by the game at some point?
I sure wish there was a way I could organize my costume list order... At least Cryptic could make them ordered alphanumerically. That would be cool... :rolleyes:
Anyway, thanks again!
Yes, when the devs updated the uniforms they realigned the DS9 uniform colors to coincide with the TNG Film uniform colors, even though it makes more sense that the colors would affect the proper areas when changing between the two uniforms. I noted this when I updated the guides.
And yes, I too wish that drag and drop tech was added to both costume slots and character slots (on the selection screen). It would make it much easier to keep things organized. As it is I currently have to save and reload previous costumes to keep them in the order I like. And when switching characters I have to hop on and off repeatedly to keep them organized by rank and faction whenever I play different characters.
I figure they'll eventually get to these little QoL improvements. Right now they have bigger fish to fry.
And as always you are very welcome.
:cool:
:rolleyes: The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.
:rolleyes:
The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background. The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
As far as the dress uniforms go, it looks to me like they're set up as Junior Officer (Ens-LtCdr.)/Senior Officer (Cdr)/Command Officer (Capt+).
That was the rank insignia policy during the two pilots, and even during the first season of TOS they had a similiar policy (Ensign/crewmen, Lieutenant J.G., Lietenant, Department Head, First Officer, Captain, Commodore), because Spock was referred to as Lietenant Commander during the first season but wore the rank insignia of a full Commander.
If you consider Dickerson's uniform as a costume error, which would not be so out of place considering that the third season was very weak and had a very smal budget. BTW Scotty only wore in that seaon a kilt to his dress uniform.
I think that the TOS dress uniform should be:
- Ensign to Lieutenant Commander, with the Lieutenant Commander wearing no rank insignia and no assignment patch but his decorations instead.
- Commander
- Captain
- Commodore (only seen once)
- Admiral (not seen in the show)
That Spock might be called Lt. Commander but be wearing the braid of a full Commander might be explained by the military tradition of "brevetting" and officer to a higher rank during a time of service (such as wartime). In essence, he would be a Commander in all ways until his service concludes, and then revert ot his original rank. For example, George S. Patton was a Captain during WW I, but was brevetted to Colonel, with all the responsibility and authority that entailed. When the war ended, he reverted to Captain.
No, a starbase BADGE is not an assignment patch. It is worn in place of assignment patches on officers who have not achieved any.
And Dickerson was also Chief of Security, which could account for his mission patches. Or did you not think of that?
Further confirmation that the Captain Dress Uniform was also proper canon for Commodores via Memory Alpha, Commodore Robert April. True it's from the Animated Series, but Memory Alpha itself lists it.
Memory Alpha is also still a wiki that can be edited and re-edited by anyone with an account, while a hardback book cannot. And the book doesn't say that those officers were Captains or Commodores, btw. That was my own mistake and I am willing to admit that one.
That's it. I'm done arguing. It's a guide, not the end all be all and not restricted by or made to adhere to anyone's definition of canon. I create and designate costume parts as best I can with the materials and colors I have available. In some cases there is not much else I can do. Since there is no alternate version of a Commodore Dress Uniform or a Lieutenant Dress Uniform, I have designated the ones we have as being appropriate to be worn as such since they can be seen being worn as such in the series. Deal with it and move on. Stop pestering.
Thank you.
:cool:
What's wrong with the three stripe system? Enlisted with the hollow stripe, officers with one, commanding officer with two. Works for me. Rank would be less important than position in that system.
Or he was due for a promotion (to lieutenant commander) and was allowed to wear the lieutenant commander stripes befor his promotion becomes official. The same happened IMHO to Spock during the first season (being a lieutenant commander but wearing commander stripes).
TAS has many problem, especially uniform colors. So we really do not know if this was an error or a mistake or intention.
I know, that this is big problem of any wiki, but it is also the great strength of a wiki, because that way mistakes can be removed much faster than in any book, where you have to wait for the next edition that may never be published. Using the discussion feature is also very helpful in order to remove errors and mistakes.
Nothing, except that they used it inconsequently.
This argument is purely opinion, and as such is not a valid argument on how the assignment patches and starbase badges works.
This is speculation and as such is not a valid argument on the use of Dress Uniforms, their assignment patches/starbase badges and rank braids. This is further compounded by using an opinion as support, making this argument doubly invalid.
This argument is of the "I'm right, therefore anything you say that disagrees with me is an invalid argument" variety and as such is invalid in determining how the Dress Uniforms should work.
This IS a valid argument about what is and is not a good source material for canon. It is filled with nothing but statements that can be proven or dis-proven.
This is also a valid argument about the use of rank braids as it contains nothing but information that can be proven or dis-proven. However, it can be strengthened by adding in examples and references to illustrate your point.
An intersting fact is that many officers (in most cases nameless extras) not assigned to the Enterprise did wear the Enterprise patch.
But it explains, why a lieutenant wears the same dress uniform as a lieutenant commander and a lieutenant commander wears a different rank insignia than two other lieutenant commanders.
That, or we have several cases of costume error (regarding Spock's rank insignia in the first season).
But two other lieutenant commanders (Giotto, Finney) also wore the two full stripes of a commander...
No, it is not. TAS has many problems. Some are of the legal kind (Kzinti), others are contradiction to information of later episodes (holodecks, force fields instead of spacesuits), and some are based on the fact that the producer was color blind. It is told that Roddenberry himself demanded that TAS is removed from Trek canon and that he would have made several things different in that show if he had known that Star Trek will continue after that.
It is an argument to stop the discussion because we cannot find out if this was a mistake or an intention.
But books about Trek are also not a good source, especially if they are written by someone who was not a member of the production staff, even if they were members of the staff, they are not prone to making mistakes (see the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology).
The problem with a wiki is, if someone writes something without mentioning a source you cannot prove if that is correct, but the same can be said about books.
If the stripes were just a way to illustrate the position, than we should not have a lieutenant j.g. and a lot less lieutenants, because then a single stripe would mean that the officer is the head of a smaller department like communication or navigation. But all the information from the show suggests that the stripes illustrate a rank and not a position. And even then we have many costume errors: unnamed commanders and lieutenant commanders (example 1, example 2, example 3).
I believe you misinterpreted the meaning behind my post. I did not post in order to say you were wrong, or that Blackavaar was wrong. I was attempting to show you the problems with your own arguments. In the post I originally quoted, you had started with a comment on the differences between starbase badges and assignment patches that I agree with, but you rendered it moot as an argument because you stated the entire argument was your OPINION. Opinions by their very nature cannot be proven or dis-proven even if the idea stated in them is correct. Example if I stated Obama was president because IN MY OPINION he won the 2008 election, then my argument would be rendered invalid because I am stating an opinion. That Obama did in fact win the election means nothing when I state that his winning is my opinion.
After that you went into speculation about the dress uniforms and how certain parts of them play out. Speculation is not a valid argument because you are filling in blanks with information might not be correct.
The way you worded your argument over the TAS lead me to what was apparently an incorrect conclusion you were trying to say you were right and Blackavaar was wrong. If you're trying to admit Blackavaar's argument can be right just as easily as it can be wrong, it is a good way to drop the topic.
The last two points I had said were completely valid arguments. I included them to show I was not saying all your arguments are bad ones.
And you keep on calling them patches. They are badges, not patches. Yes, they are sewn on but they are still badges and are not to be confused with mission patches, which are a completely different thing. Badges denote the particular ship or starbase an officer is assigned to, while mission patches denote the honors they have received and the battles they have fought in.
Mission patches are also completely separated from rank in that though officers of higher rank obviously will have achieved more mission patches over the course of their careers, they do not necessarily have to be of a certain rank to have achieved them in the first place and are actually the cause for them being promoted at a later time. This means that both the instances of Spock in Season One and Dickerson in Season Three are not mistakes because they do not necessarily have to have been of a certain rank in order to have achieved those honors and were likely near promotion because of those honors at the time of those episodes.
:cool:
Concerning all other discussion-points, I can see where you all are coming from. But please consider this: Star Trek is just a television show. Furthermore, the Original Series has been a television show that had been produced with a budget that would hardly be enough to produce it properly for radio (and not television). So they had to cut corners, and they had to recycle and reuse Everything (Yes folks, that everything with capital E!).
In essence: Dickersons uniform was actually Scottys uniform from a previous episode. So were many other uniforms.
In essence: There are irregularities in canon - severe ones. Although I dont agree with every little detail of Blackavaars guide, I believe he comes pretty close to what we have seen on screen, considering the tools Cryptic has offered to us as of now. However, close is not exact. But no-one can exactly reproduce those uniforms in a manner that reflects the irregularities in canon. So I must conclude that any »guide to canon colors« will remain a close approximation that will leave points open for discussion. I hardly heard anyone complain about the fact that ST:Os class A and class B uniforms were never seen on screen and therefore can not be canon. *g*
As Blackavaar has put it in his previous post: Everything presented here is a proposal. You are totally free to equip your crew with uniforms that you see fit (and I have seen some really terrible variations out there
So, Mr. Blackavaar, as theres almost a complete week until the release of those bajoran uniforms, why dont you show us some of your un-cannon work?
Read you later, dudes.
@gorillakhan: You are right. TOS had a budget so small that they really had to cut corners. That's the reason they reused the Enterprise assignment patches for non-Enterprise personnel, uniforms and props. And that's the reason so many 'costume errors' exist.
Most of Blackavaar's proposals are good, in a few cases he made mistakes. For TOS those mistakes are debatable, for TMP we see that production notes regarding the uniforms are not always followed, but for the TWOK uniforms those mistakes are clearly mistakes because Flechter's notes were followed in the three movies he was responsible for the uniforms. Only TFF with a new color for security and TUC with the totaly wrong uniform color and rank insignia for Valeris did not follow those notes.
Tell that to a Naval Officer whose decorations those mission patches are based upon. Tell him that there is no difference between the bars on his sleeve and the decorations on his chest and see what happens.
:cool:
You both have different opinions, and you each interpret things differently.
Blackavaar, you have an awesome guide and I hope you keep on making it that awesome
BarbarossaRotbart, you don't like his guide, you have made your complaints, he disagrees. You can't force him to change, so why don't you make your own guide on what you think is canon so others can use both,
I agree. I will no longer argue. I must however thank Barbarossa. I did enjoy the discussion even if it did irritate me at times. It was challenging and it did get me to re-examine some of my conclusions.
Whenever the devs update the WoK uniforms I will consider Barbarossa's points again. Until then I am not changing anything as I do not like the current belt and do not want to use it in my guide.
Currently I am reviewing DS9 for the upcoming Bajoran Militia guides. Memory Alpha seems a bit mixed up about which colors designate what, which I can understand since it is not really made entirely clear in the series. So, I have also borrowed a couple of books from the library and am studying those as well. My guides will be as accurate as possible.
:cool: