There is no fallacy in my argument, I provided critical reviews that point out the fallacy with the current mechanic - along with a basic tenant of human nature. Im sorry if those facts are inconvenient for you...you claim critics are often wrong...ok, maybe, but instead of offering an unconvincing generalized statement, you might want to try specifically refuting their conclusions with some FACTS. Because their observations ARE DEAD ON. No death penalty pun intended.
As far as your "follow the crowd" comment....the people upset with a death consequence are screaming that THEY represent the crowd...so uh, now who is really using a flawed argument?
Unfortunately, I must correct you at least for the sake of anyone reading your assertion. Your argument's logic is that I should agree because some critics' opinions fall in line with your view.... that is a fallacy in terms of classic debate... categorized as "follow the crowd". Further Your statements and the critics statements are purely normative. Meaning there is no true way to prove or disprove it. Facts are not normative. A fact is a positive statement. Light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second is a positive statement or otherwise factual. Saying the world would be better if everyone was forced to wear enormous clown shoes cannot be proved or disproved in the context of this argument. That is a normative statement and therefore not factual.
My argument has been born out of mere principle.
1st This is not what I paid for and had I known my buying decision would have been influenced. Based on the posts on this forum, I think I speak for more than just myself. Fact 1.
2nd You're supporting forcing something on people who do not want it. Fact 2. I do not care how small or large the group is. They have and are paying for what is and have asked not to have something forced on them. Your push for it is the same mindset that has brought us Indian reservations, gulags, apartheid, etc. Now in the grand scheme of things, people can cash out and say sionara and find something else to do... like debating in forums.
You clearly are dissatisfied with parts of the game... that is evident, but deciding that it will be better if everything is done the way you say it should be done is not going to be received very well.
Originally Posted by Charlest81
There's no DP so why should I care if I'm boom'd? For me self preservation is an aspect of this MMO I'm not concerned about because there's no reason to be.
because when you get bumped, your friends die a lot faster. How about every time you "die" the entire mission or fleet action completely resets? Because I think that is sort of what they had in mind. Dieing takes you out of that round and the team loses an asset. There is the penalty. But forcing someone to play extra hours to earn credits to pay a repair bill... sorry, I work all day and I don't find that entertaining or enjoyable. But c'est la vie. If Cryptic changes the game I'll either like it or not. Right now I am loving it and I hope to keep on loving it. \\//(^_^)
I Agree 1000% If u Don't have no Self respect for your self Then I guess u don't care if u die or u get the other ppl in your group Killed from not caring. I for 1 Hate to die. Not to say anything about having a Battleship to 2% and when I die he gain's 98% heath in that 15 sec's Dam I wish my ship had reg like that.
The DP now is Fine, But I don't mind a DP if they do it right, Repair bill that a Shipyard has to repair. On the Ground Your BO's Die forever if they die 3 time's in 1 hr time frame with a Rez immu for 3 sec's So wwhen u Rez someone and they die before u heal them (3 sec) it don't count towards the DP limit.
I vote for no death penalty. I think it will probably reduce the fun factor of the game. That said, Knox's minigame suggestion sounds pretty cool but even that could potentially get tedious and repetitive. How many variations of repair games go you think would actually be implemented for something like this? Two or three?
...
Thnx.
To start with I would hope they would have 5 different versions/minigames for each class...just off the top of my head...also, I would also envision a "cancel" button where you just respawn at a less convenient location with a debuff. But I would also like to see rewards - something for averting 10 warp core breaches, etc. Something as simple perhaps as a cool title, or a few extra skill points, or whatever...
Engineering
1) Life support
2)Warp core
3)Structural Integrity/Hull breaches
Tactical
1) Disarm a warhead
2)Manage internal security to contain/repel boarders
3)Fix a phaser coolant leak
Science
1) Save a vital crew member (think biobed in sickbay)
2) Overcome an anomaly your ship just got blasted into...
3)Triage crew
4) Stop a main computer cascade failure
Of course the devil would be in the details to make minigames that were fast, challenging and fun...But these would also add more content and distinction to each of the classes.
Also, typically games will have different consequences for pve death versus pvp death. I wouldnt be surprised if there was NO pvp death penalty...dying in pvp is much more common place than in PvE. Really, if they fix the spawn problems/DSE encounter problems, etc. that have been mentioned by so many, so many times...pve death should be fairly rare...this is NOT a hard game...lol
I think the most important issue here is that STO should be Star Trek FIRST and MMO second. If STO ever became WOW, I would give up my life time subscription in a heart beat.
Right now it feels like Star Trek. Has there ever been a Star Trek episode when the good guy don't win in the end? NO.
I think you have it right already. I don't think we should have a death penalty. This is not a hard core MMO game. This is Star Trek. Having to wait a little bit to get back into the game is penalty enough.
I should never leave playing STO feeling like I have been stomped on. It is just plain fun and always should be. I don't want it to be real. i want it to be the great happy fantasy that is Star Trek.
U got to Agree That alot of time there is Sting. Let me say 1st I voted No to DP ,Unless done right. But how many time's have our Hero's be floating in space disabled and have to get Repair's done while foundin a way to keep there attack from taking there ship or there Cargo. I can think of quite a few time the ship looked like something u pick through for part's. Wire's hangin ,console's smoking, Outside panel's missing hehe.
You know, I am wondering that very same thing myself. It seems like the voice of a few are shouting over the top of everyone else. Oh well, I expected nothing less.
What I really want to know is when they're going to expand the Klingon content beyond 4 sectors and never ending PvP?
the feeling that you guys weren't listening to us , one that i had been able to laugh-off finally came slithering into my conscience, earlier today as a matter of fact. Your "STATE OF THE GAME" has banished that monster for me and i thank you. it's a sincere, frank and informative letter to "us" and it has brought back that "chummy-friend" feeling i had for you guys in the beginning, thank you for validating my belief that any group of persons that work (obviously very diligently) on a Star Trek project are the kick-awesome type of people i'd be comfortable sharing a schooner at the pub or a bong in my game room with.
loving you peops, and dont let the "gotta be angry about something" haters get ya down, everyone else is too busy enjoying the fruit of your labor to post.
I can' t understand someone has a problem with a kind of deathpenalty. Guys, we live in 2010 the time for really strong dp are over. But a little bit of dp is important for the feeling. See, if you get a dp within a battle. for example 5% of weapon dmg you can die 20 times (!!!) til your weapons are useless. If you die in a mission your weapons are 5% less strong. That would not be a hard dp BUT after your second or third death you will start to be a little bit more carful to go in to your mission or you will not be able to finish them until you repaired it. Another thing is that you will start to ask some of your friends to help you finish the missions maybe. After that you go to Memory Alpha or Ganalda or somewhere else to repair your weapons for some energy credits. First it makes you playing a little bit more careful or it makes you playing more often together with your friends, second the money suddenly is worth something. ATM money is not worth anything. You have got more than enough of it but if you need it to repair your items, you will need it and take a look after it, third it makes the whole space missions and pvp feel a little bit more realistic.
I don' t think a dp will be much more than 5% system dmg. Cryptic is aware that too much dp is not fun so don't be afraid. It will not. I am very sure of it.;)
This DP I think would be Great for Space. But I'm Still votin for the BO's die after 2 or 3 death's in a time frame. We do pay alot to get our BO's where we want them but come on how many poor Red Shirt's know that a Away mission mean's trouble. hehe:D
Like the vocal minority in this thread that are raging against any kind of death consequence, irregardless of how interesting, immersive, or mild it might be?
Once again ... You are not citing fact. You cannot prove whether your assertion is true or not true. A normative statement. Also, I may point of that those that are supporting a death penalty are indeed the minority within the context of this forum thread. Fact.
How funny, you complain that cryptic might actually be listening to customers posting on its forum, then you demand they turn around and do the same thing for you and people posting related "I am gonna quit" posts?
I FULLY understand people that dont want to see a death penalty that 1) encourages griefing or 2) is a needless, painful sink of whatever. But If you have watched ONE episode of star trek you have probably figured out that getting your ship and crew blown up would be a big deal with some kind of consequence...
Not having a death penalty doesnt cause me to lose sleep, but it does seem silly and removes thrill from the game...because there is no risk. That cuts down on excitement and fun. That is just plain human nature. If I had to pick between harsh dp and no dp...I'd probably leave it the way it is...
Normative statement ... What you describe as human nature is not true for everyone. You assert that it is.
Secondly, you employ an "appeal to the crowd" mechanism with your next statement saying if it is too harsh then they should leave it the way it is. But your logic is flawed in that you assume that it won't be too harsh for you and therefore fine for everyone else.
But as I have posted before I would much rather see death consequence minigames...where basically when your ship gets incapped, you load into the interior of your ship and use consoles at bridge stations to play a minigame to save you ship and/or crew. These would be fast and quick. If you failed the minigame, or opted out of the minigame, then you would respawn in a less convenent location with a debuff for x amt of time. If you win the minigame, you get un-incapped with a modest buff and get back into the fight.
That is not what people initially paid for. And regardless of numbers it is unethical to force it on anyone whom does not want it. If I wanted a mini game I would have bought of copy of tetris and would not be here debating. Fact. The statement is true for me and I did not imply that it is true for everyone.
We want DEATH penalties!!
Reading that made my day, when I kill you in PvP (or anywhere) it should sting.
DP DP DP!!
Dude... aren't you in the wrong game?
STO = Star Trek Online, not Surreal Tournament Online or something alike.
Now in STO PvP, everyone wins. If you actually also win the PvP match, you just win more than those that don't.
Now it's fun. Not frustration because that respawn bug didn't get my personal shield back up, or I'm in a game with twice as many people on the other side. Who cares if I get vaporized fifteen times? I'll just try and do it back to you and joke about my ineptness while congratulating you on your amazing PvP skills.
You see? Fun.
Do you really want to punish others because you are better at PvP?
Just take your reward, gloat and smirk all you want, and let the fun continue.
So... NO to death penalties.
Craig is my hero (despite the goats)!
Once again ... You are not citing fact. You cannot prove whether your assertion is true or not true. A normative statement. Also, I may point of that those that are supporting a death penalty are indeed the minority within the context of this forum thread. Fact.
Normative statement ... What you describe as human nature is not true for everyone. You assert that it is.
Secondly, you employ an "appeal to the crowd" mechanism with your next statement saying if it is too harsh then they should leave it the way it is. But your logic is flawed in that you assume that it won't be too harsh for you and therefore fine for everyone else.
That is not what people initially paid for. And regardless of numbers it is unethical to force it on anyone whom does not want it. If I wanted a mini game I would have bought of copy of tetris and would not be here debating. Fact. The statement is true for me and I did not imply that it is true for everyone.
Unfortunately you repeatedly twist your labels of "fact" and "opinion" to suit your own needs. That is also human nature. The reviewers were dead on with their assessments. Now, first, if you want to say that anti DPers are the majority in this thread and label it as a fact, start counting and provide the data. Second, suggesting that the comments in this thread would be representative of the player pop as a whole is disingenuous AT BEST.
Finally the hallmark of MMOs is that their play experience changes over time. Unless this is your first MMo, you should know that...so "what you initially paid for..." is a meaningless concept. The logic of your argument boils down to "Its bad because I don't want it"...Well, there are several good reasons to have one...none of which I have seen refuted. For example, a lack of a death penalty negates the need for a tank, or the utility of a tank, in most of the game, especially pve and leveling. No reason not to fly an escort, and kill as fast as possible when dying doesnt matter. Why kill slower in order to reduce your death percentage?
um I dont post on forums for games often but... I think i will on this since you say you are listining. Um I dont know about the rest of the community but a Death penelty is a no no for me. I dont like them one bit. I dont like running back to my body, I dont like being forced to pay for repairs, and I really really dont like having to work it off exp wise like in City of Heroes espessially since you like warping me into giant throngs of enemy ships that you cant help but die in. I vote no to death! I guess thats all I got. I am rather passionate about this subject.
As the death penalty debate is kicking into high gear, I would suggest an option from the following to keep people happy:-
1. Make it an option, a higher risk for higher rewards (more rare stuff dropped in game, more exp, etc...)
2. Have a mandatory vote on the issue over a week - everyone logging in for one week gets to vote before they play (i.e. between the login and the choose a character screens).
Personally, I would prefer to have the option as it caters to everyone.
Unfortunately you repeatedly twist your labels of "fact" and "opinion" to suit your own needs. That is also human nature. The reviewers were dead on with their assessments. Now, first, if you want to say that anti DPers are the majority in this thread and label it as a fact, start counting and provide the data. Second, suggesting that the comments in this thread would be representative of the player pop as a whole is disingenuous AT BEST.
Twice you employed a new, but common fallacy... "the straw man" You assert I am twisting 'fact' and 'opinion', but completely fail to point out where I did and imply I am taking the position I speak for the majority when I have stated I speak for myself and perhaps a few others. Once again you apply a normative statement implying something that cannot be proven true or untrue as human nature. Once again you assert the opinion of a critic that cannot be proven to be true or untrue. You did do one thing right in calling me out on numbers, but perhaps you should have checked your numbers before calling me out. Like a game of chess I had had already calculated there were 6 unique individual posts in support of the death penalty and over 15 individual unique posts against (the 17th if you read the post immediately following yours)
Finally the hallmark of MMOs is that their play experience changes over time. Unless this is your first MMo, you should know that...so "what you initially paid for..." is a meaningless concept. The logic of your argument boils down to "Its bad because I don't want it"...Well, there are several good reasons to have one...none of which I have seen refuted. For example, a lack of a death penalty negates the need for a tank, or the utility of a tank, in most of the game, especially pve and leveling. No reason not to fly an escort, and kill as fast as possible when dying doesnt matter. Why kill slower in order to reduce your death percentage?
Again you cite something as fact that cannot be proved either way in regards to mmos. And I submit in the context and terms of contractual obligations that if you pay for a car and get a tricycle... someone has committed outright fraud also considered criminal under said circumstances. So your argument is counter intuitive and goes against most precedence. Also you employ "the straw man" argument. I said had the death penalty been fully disclosed it would have influenced my buying decision on a lifetime sub (something my credit card company agreed with).
Once again you state your opinion as fact (aka a normative statement). Neither of us can prove or disprove your assertion about lack of said death penalty negating the need for tanks, etc. Also, if I may pose a question? Is that the intent behind the game Tanks, DPS, Healer ... or was that something cryptic used to help us gain perspective on the ships and potential function of said ships. Because it seems to me that function is in part tied to your bridge officers. Anyhow... I'm going to tell you what my next move is going to be... I'm going to employ an "appeal to the masses" wrapped in a "gain agreement".
Would anyone pay for a year of satellite radio expecting their favorite music, only to have the company keep your money and deliver music that you detest? There is nothing you can say to that that will sound genuinely honest other than the proverbial corner I painted you into. Now I'm going to use some of the same mechanisms you are using with blanket normative statements designed to cow people. The trend in mmos with regard to death penalties is they scale them back over time and cryptic should listen to me and follow the example of top mmos out there. I am implying a higher source of this wisdom, while not citing any source/example. Man I could be a critic..... there I just employed mockery.
Or I could apply a character attack with a straw man by saying you're just upset no one will team up with your cruiser. But that doesn't get us anywhere.
Once again my points are and have been
1. Had they fully disclosed a death penalty up front, it would have influenced my buying decision.
2. Forcing B on anyone who has paid for A is unethical.
The server is not capable of handling the load. The queue never works properly. So, let's make things more complicated by adding new features. That way we can have a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't work right!
Yay.
Count me in for that....
Why is anyone thinking, "new content", let alone discussing it?
I had to set aside some STO playing time to make my point in case now while I still have a chance to be heard amongst the many STO fans/players/supporters' voices along with the critiques
First, thanks very much for the February 26th News update to notify us of the prospect of changes in STO, which you've laid out for discussion in STO forum on some of these things you listed:
-- Respec
-- Death Penalty ( DP )
-- Difficulty Slider
-- More Open Auto-Fire
-- Replayable Missions
-- Improving Memory Alpha
-- Fixing those Commodities Mission
I'll only discuss 2 of the listed things since the rest is fine with me on what you have to do to improve the game.
Auto-fire. I think it's a great option to click on as like we could with the full impulse thruster toggle button. I don't mind even if it's not dealt with to give us as an option since I've managed well enough so far without it with no respawns. But it would be helpful in a bee-hive battling scenario with multiple enemy ships like bees swarming around you at every sides, which every STO players know all too well. The fast left hand/fingers coordinated dance over the keyboard trying to maneuver and maintain shields is a bit of a challenge, but it's part of the fun for what it is, I guess.
Here's an OST plausible scenario to illustrate my point:
The Enterprise having just been caught in a battle with it's long time foe after answering to the distress calls from a Federation science vessel caught just within the Orion nebula near its asteroid belt while conducting its special research mission. The Orion pirates were up to it's old tricks of ambushing ships, especially an unsuspecting Federation ship wandering in. "Chekov, target the lead ship and give 'em all we got!" Kirk orders, as he hits the captain chair's com link button. "Scotty Bridge. Give me all you got in engines. I want the Enterprise's nose to be able to smell out all the romulan ales from their six!" One of the Orion ships equipped with a new special plasma weapon cannon just fired off a shot at the Enterprise in protest to her going after the lead ship. "Sulu,, execute Delta 5 - Tango 6b." The bridge crew suddenly lurch to the starboard side as Enterprise tries to dodge the green pulsating plume, showing it's heading directly towards them on the main view screen. "Sir " the helmsman lets out. "I know." Kirk interrupted. "Enterprise. Brace for impact!" Moments later, the bridge's light flickers off and on as it shudders violently in the midst of being hit on the port side. As the smokes slowly clears from the sparks still shooting out from some bridge instrument panels, the noble ship still held together as if in defiance to being outnumbered by her foes. The captain of the Enterprise and his determine grits puts himself up first to assess the bridge situation and sees his helmsman and weapon officers are still down on the floor - motionless - and with some blood showing on them. "Dammit " Kirk utters under his breath. Hitting the comm link again. "Bones. Bridge - now!" He glanced over and sees his science officer already moving quickly in helping the nearby station communication officer back on her feet and back on her chair while right away the vulcan's already moving under some station panels to attempt restoring the bridge systems to be back fully online. Kirk immediately motion over his helmsman's chair, keying quickly some buttons trying to maintain helms control if any is left.. His luck held. He looks back over his shoulder to his first officer. Spock returns the look with a confirming nod. No words between the two friends. "Computer " Kirks calls out. 'Working..' the familiar female computer voice replied. "Access overide manual to computer M-6 weapons control. Authorization: Kirk - Omega 9741-X37 " The captain has initiated and authorize the Computer to take over control of bridge weapon controls under his direct order using his Captain special signature command key codes to override manual to comp control. Once activated the Enterprise defense is temporary under the M-6 ship weapons defense mode to act out as AI weapon officer in case of bridge officer down and or incapacitated in an emergency. "Computer, target ship A3 and maintain all weapons locks and auto firing on my command Initiates Attack pattern Apha 1-4, " Kirk gives the orders to his ship computer. 'Acknowledge.' came the reply. "Fire!" The Enterprise fires back a volley of photon torpedoes and her phaser beams blazed the Orion nebula hitting her targets, one by one Her foes shields began to melt under the great Lady's fury.
(btw, one of my favorite OST episodes was 'Balance of Terror' )
Yes, Auto-fire is a good thing to have if you ask me. A bit challenging to maintain the bridge tasks of shields modulating, firing weapons, and maneuvering -- all at the same time -- but if that's part of the intended fun of STO MMO's gaming, then so be it. I don't mind either way, really.
Now my personal takes on DP.
Why is DP an issue now when I thought you and your Cryptic Development staffs surely already set aside meetings in the initial developmental stages of STO and during the beta testing months to have decided to be apart from other MMO's to have launch the game without DP? Am sure you and your team wanted each players to have the 'freedom' to choose how they play with care in avoiding "respawn" because players who puts 'respawn' in the back their mind in game play would not truly see the fun challenge of avoiding it at all costs.
Why now in bringing up DP and without even putting it up along with other STO subscribers survey questionnaires recently? That would have been nice and shows actually how many really support DP and how many does not. I would love to know with setting aside both sides of the DP arguments. Each of us has a handle and carries a vote, so you would clearly see the numbers of where you should take this DP matters or have it just optional as if it's viable for Cryptic DEV's
When I first get a ship commissioned to my character, I try to test out what it can dish out and takes in to see the thresholds of my ship's strength and achille's heals, so to speak, by either going on battle mission or more recent in 'Fleet combat' against Klingons. Sorta like Captain's prerogative to use captain's 'Holodeck' for simulated training purposes to learn more about his/her own ship and its abilities and weaknesses, and so forth.
For example: My first Cruiser encounter with the Romulan's War Bird ( battleship ) was not successful, of course. I learn both ships' strengths and weaknesses, mine and the Romulan battleship, and I learn to play smart and be patient to wear down the War Bird's shields and gain the upper hands win as David vs Goliath. Now, if I had been punished with a DP losses during those initial encounters it would not been fair to any players starting this game to not know what it's like because they lose something along with the trials and error losses initially and they likely get frustrated and moved on to other MMO's games that's not so severe in such rewarding experiments with harsh DP's. I don't buy STO to ride behind long time STO players who've gain their skills and now presumes to dictate their hope of DP as means to be incentives to avoid resorting to Respawn when they failed to see the obvious that most STO players don't enjoy respawn as it is to not see it as 'option' even. These seasoned players supporting DP are being selfish to want what's best for them having already enjoyed the initial learning phase of the game on what ships and equipments works best on what, and now they want to deprive all those new comers of the same initial enjoyments and privileges they got to enjoyed to where they're at. That's way uncool a thinking on their part, or maybe just lack of consideration for all new players going in who may not have experience much MMO's and knows what DP even means. How others play their STO game is not my business since it's personal to each player buying this or any other games.
"Zinc", sir, you are considering giving into demands from some that makes no sense to rest of us. So please at least make such 'DP' optional to every players to choose how they want it to be, and not let these selfish DP bunch impose how they want on those who don't. The game started as IS and they play it thus far and now they want others coming into this game to suffers for what experience advantage they've already gain from trials and errors in playing with the respawn as far as they did and benefitted without any losses of credits, items , or any such forms of DP's.
If Cryptic DEV's team can't make DP optional and viable for each players to choose then stick with your original guns. If not there's alternatives. Place a Medal pin tag on player's character/ship's Icon that they and others encountering their character or ship shows how like an ace war pilot gets an enemy's flag painted on the side of their plane for every bogey kills they shot down, etc. In STO format it's under their ship's name and character icon sowing say' =A= S1 - G2. Meaning No respawn in Space battles since 100 space battles, and no Ground combat respawn since 200 ground missions. Easy to implement, and makes sense to have indicator to really show their skills. But trying to drive away new players to STO by not letting the newbies have all the previous experiences gained by all these DP advocates while repawns in their early STO beta game days is a bit harsh.
Thanks for letting me put it all out there, so now got my full say on this DP matters once and for all.
ok, ok, Its not what you expected but does that really matter. You see this game as some internet service that should hold up to what you expected to get, but its not, its a game that may or may not be like all the others in the genere.
I myself paid for a lifetime subscription, not becuse the game had everything WOW and Guild Wars had, but because it is Star Trek. Some people just want what they've seen before, but I know that other Trekkers out there just want to be apart of a new "evolving" universe made in the image of Gene Rodeberry's vision.
I would really not like death penalties. I like the fact that I can go into places I'm not ready for and get my TRIBBLE kicked and learn how to play with no penalty for TRIBBLE up. Make a death penalty for PvP, item loot or something, but leave PvE alone.
Death Penalties, in my opinion, are a BAD idea. I vote NO on Death Penalties. Also, Combat Missions are fine on occasion, but if you actually watch Star Trek you will see that fighting is not what drives the show. There were wars, yes, but exploration, discovery, new places, new people, new ideas, hope for the future... All these things are Star Trek... So yes on Non-Combat Missions. I would also like to see the patrol missions replayable for those who reach Admiral. In addiion, I would like to be able to go into any star system I want and repeat past missions any time I desire. Us Admirals have put in a lot of time and effort to make it to that rank and we deserve to be able to play after working to get to this level... Thanks for listening Cryptic.
Some of the few things on the way: My thoughts/comments
Respec - NEEDED
Death Penalty - NOT NEEDED OR OPTIONAL (Hardcore type mode perhaps?
Difficulty Slider - Could Be useful for replay missions
More open auto-fire - SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN AT RELEASE
Replayable missions - Depends on which missions and will they scale for higher level
Improving Memory Alpha - YES, give us more than upgrades
Fixing those Commodity missions - YES
New PvP maps and Fleet Actions are rather nice, too. - How about fixing the existing ones that have been broken since Beta first?
"Well, The Users think that we need to do more non-combat." - Of course, we need more than another shoot anything that moves type experience
"Guys, I'm sorry to interrupt, but The Players really want ground auto-attack back. Drop what we're doing." - Why was it ever taken out?
"We already know what you think about a death penalty, Craig but The Community really thinks it's a good idea and their opinion is more valid than yours because they probably don't own goats." - See above comment regarding this subject
Everything looks great...
I'm really looking forward to those new klingon ships especially!
Thanks very much zinc and cryptic for keeping an eye on what the players want.
It's gonna be great!
As the death penalty debate is kicking into high gear, I would suggest an option from the following to keep people happy:-
1. Make it an option, a higher risk for higher rewards (more rare stuff dropped in game, more exp, etc...)
2. Have a mandatory vote on the issue over a week - everyone logging in for one week gets to vote before they play (i.e. between the login and the choose a character screens).
Personally, I would prefer to have the option as it caters to everyone.
Amen brother.
I find it interesting that people who are anti-DP like myself are quite happy to put it to a vote, but I never see that call from the pro-DP crowd. Guess what? I can already give you a startelingly acurate estimate on the result. Most people don't want to be penalized. The score would be in the neighborhood of 80/20 with No DP winning.
I am pleased. Sadly, I'm tight on cash and cannot play Star Trek Online for a few months, but from the look of things, it will be a grand and glorious place once I return. I am absolutely 110% behind EVERYTHING they said in this address.
Yes, I want more non-combat.
Yes, I want ship interiors.
AND YES, I ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY, TOTALLY WANT DEATH PENALTIES...preferably with some interactive engineering type things to make it more immersive.
Man. For once it really looks like the devs get the picture! Listen to your players!
THANK YOU, CRYPTIC AND STO!
I'll be sure to POST my ideas, since I can be sure you'll listen!
Right now it looks like you have some great people putting out so much of what I already want to see happen here. This game might just turn out to be...
It is a wonderful feeling to be part of such a small and elite group of 3. Tell ya what, you don't want a DP? Then have Cryptic turn friendly fire on so that we can remove the obstacles (read idiots who just blast away ruining team efforts for the rest of us...) and everyone can have a grand ole time.
Sadly enough with no DP they will be back is 15 to 20 seconds to cause turmoil again and to add insult to injury they would be fully recharged and 100% operational and you on the other hand, would more than likely be depleted and/or damaged to a large degree.
It is insane to me that people want a death penalty put into game! For so many reasons I would urge against this action, mostly because I go into missions and get vaporized by some thing 20 lvl's higher then me on a regular bases. If those bug and kinks get worked out then maybe, but a time that grows longer with each death until you respawn is more in order for this universe in mu opinion.
I did experience why people may want this penalty once I tried to run the CE mission but I dont think that such a thing would hamper those who want to grief. I am sure they wouldjust cause us a new trype of grief.
Comments
Keep up the excellent work (and play from the sound of it), Cryptic!
Captain Arnold Oli Hallanger
U.S.S. Minnesota
320th Fleet
Unfortunately, I must correct you at least for the sake of anyone reading your assertion. Your argument's logic is that I should agree because some critics' opinions fall in line with your view.... that is a fallacy in terms of classic debate... categorized as "follow the crowd". Further Your statements and the critics statements are purely normative. Meaning there is no true way to prove or disprove it. Facts are not normative. A fact is a positive statement. Light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second is a positive statement or otherwise factual. Saying the world would be better if everyone was forced to wear enormous clown shoes cannot be proved or disproved in the context of this argument. That is a normative statement and therefore not factual.
My argument has been born out of mere principle.
1st This is not what I paid for and had I known my buying decision would have been influenced. Based on the posts on this forum, I think I speak for more than just myself. Fact 1.
2nd You're supporting forcing something on people who do not want it. Fact 2. I do not care how small or large the group is. They have and are paying for what is and have asked not to have something forced on them. Your push for it is the same mindset that has brought us Indian reservations, gulags, apartheid, etc. Now in the grand scheme of things, people can cash out and say sionara and find something else to do... like debating in forums.
You clearly are dissatisfied with parts of the game... that is evident, but deciding that it will be better if everything is done the way you say it should be done is not going to be received very well.
I yield the floor.
There's no DP so why should I care if I'm boom'd? For me self preservation is an aspect of this MMO I'm not concerned about because there's no reason to be.
I Agree 1000% If u Don't have no Self respect for your self Then I guess u don't care if u die or u get the other ppl in your group Killed from not caring. I for 1 Hate to die. Not to say anything about having a Battleship to 2% and when I die he gain's 98% heath in that 15 sec's Dam I wish my ship had reg like that.
The DP now is Fine, But I don't mind a DP if they do it right, Repair bill that a Shipyard has to repair. On the Ground Your BO's Die forever if they die 3 time's in 1 hr time frame with a Rez immu for 3 sec's So wwhen u Rez someone and they die before u heal them (3 sec) it don't count towards the DP limit.
Thnx.
To start with I would hope they would have 5 different versions/minigames for each class...just off the top of my head...also, I would also envision a "cancel" button where you just respawn at a less convenient location with a debuff. But I would also like to see rewards - something for averting 10 warp core breaches, etc. Something as simple perhaps as a cool title, or a few extra skill points, or whatever...
Engineering
1) Life support
2)Warp core
3)Structural Integrity/Hull breaches
Tactical
1) Disarm a warhead
2)Manage internal security to contain/repel boarders
3)Fix a phaser coolant leak
Science
1) Save a vital crew member (think biobed in sickbay)
2) Overcome an anomaly your ship just got blasted into...
3)Triage crew
4) Stop a main computer cascade failure
Of course the devil would be in the details to make minigames that were fast, challenging and fun...But these would also add more content and distinction to each of the classes.
Also, typically games will have different consequences for pve death versus pvp death. I wouldnt be surprised if there was NO pvp death penalty...dying in pvp is much more common place than in PvE. Really, if they fix the spawn problems/DSE encounter problems, etc. that have been mentioned by so many, so many times...pve death should be fairly rare...this is NOT a hard game...lol
U got to Agree That alot of time there is Sting. Let me say 1st I voted No to DP ,Unless done right. But how many time's have our Hero's be floating in space disabled and have to get Repair's done while foundin a way to keep there attack from taking there ship or there Cargo. I can think of quite a few time the ship looked like something u pick through for part's. Wire's hangin ,console's smoking, Outside panel's missing hehe.
What I really want to know is when they're going to expand the Klingon content beyond 4 sectors and never ending PvP?
loving you peops, and dont let the "gotta be angry about something" haters get ya down, everyone else is too busy enjoying the fruit of your labor to post.
Liam
This DP I think would be Great for Space. But I'm Still votin for the BO's die after 2 or 3 death's in a time frame. We do pay alot to get our BO's where we want them but come on how many poor Red Shirt's know that a Away mission mean's trouble. hehe:D
Normative statement ... What you describe as human nature is not true for everyone. You assert that it is.
Secondly, you employ an "appeal to the crowd" mechanism with your next statement saying if it is too harsh then they should leave it the way it is. But your logic is flawed in that you assume that it won't be too harsh for you and therefore fine for everyone else.
That is not what people initially paid for. And regardless of numbers it is unethical to force it on anyone whom does not want it. If I wanted a mini game I would have bought of copy of tetris and would not be here debating. Fact. The statement is true for me and I did not imply that it is true for everyone.
Dude... aren't you in the wrong game?
STO = Star Trek Online, not Surreal Tournament Online or something alike.
Now in STO PvP, everyone wins. If you actually also win the PvP match, you just win more than those that don't.
Now it's fun. Not frustration because that respawn bug didn't get my personal shield back up, or I'm in a game with twice as many people on the other side. Who cares if I get vaporized fifteen times? I'll just try and do it back to you and joke about my ineptness while congratulating you on your amazing PvP skills.
You see? Fun.
Do you really want to punish others because you are better at PvP?
Just take your reward, gloat and smirk all you want, and let the fun continue.
So... NO to death penalties.
Craig is my hero (despite the goats)!
Unfortunately you repeatedly twist your labels of "fact" and "opinion" to suit your own needs. That is also human nature. The reviewers were dead on with their assessments. Now, first, if you want to say that anti DPers are the majority in this thread and label it as a fact, start counting and provide the data. Second, suggesting that the comments in this thread would be representative of the player pop as a whole is disingenuous AT BEST.
Finally the hallmark of MMOs is that their play experience changes over time. Unless this is your first MMo, you should know that...so "what you initially paid for..." is a meaningless concept. The logic of your argument boils down to "Its bad because I don't want it"...Well, there are several good reasons to have one...none of which I have seen refuted. For example, a lack of a death penalty negates the need for a tank, or the utility of a tank, in most of the game, especially pve and leveling. No reason not to fly an escort, and kill as fast as possible when dying doesnt matter. Why kill slower in order to reduce your death percentage?
1. Make it an option, a higher risk for higher rewards (more rare stuff dropped in game, more exp, etc...)
2. Have a mandatory vote on the issue over a week - everyone logging in for one week gets to vote before they play (i.e. between the login and the choose a character screens).
Personally, I would prefer to have the option as it caters to everyone.
Twice you employed a new, but common fallacy... "the straw man" You assert I am twisting 'fact' and 'opinion', but completely fail to point out where I did and imply I am taking the position I speak for the majority when I have stated I speak for myself and perhaps a few others. Once again you apply a normative statement implying something that cannot be proven true or untrue as human nature. Once again you assert the opinion of a critic that cannot be proven to be true or untrue. You did do one thing right in calling me out on numbers, but perhaps you should have checked your numbers before calling me out. Like a game of chess I had had already calculated there were 6 unique individual posts in support of the death penalty and over 15 individual unique posts against (the 17th if you read the post immediately following yours)
Again you cite something as fact that cannot be proved either way in regards to mmos. And I submit in the context and terms of contractual obligations that if you pay for a car and get a tricycle... someone has committed outright fraud also considered criminal under said circumstances. So your argument is counter intuitive and goes against most precedence. Also you employ "the straw man" argument. I said had the death penalty been fully disclosed it would have influenced my buying decision on a lifetime sub (something my credit card company agreed with).
Once again you state your opinion as fact (aka a normative statement). Neither of us can prove or disprove your assertion about lack of said death penalty negating the need for tanks, etc. Also, if I may pose a question? Is that the intent behind the game Tanks, DPS, Healer ... or was that something cryptic used to help us gain perspective on the ships and potential function of said ships. Because it seems to me that function is in part tied to your bridge officers. Anyhow... I'm going to tell you what my next move is going to be... I'm going to employ an "appeal to the masses" wrapped in a "gain agreement".
Would anyone pay for a year of satellite radio expecting their favorite music, only to have the company keep your money and deliver music that you detest? There is nothing you can say to that that will sound genuinely honest other than the proverbial corner I painted you into. Now I'm going to use some of the same mechanisms you are using with blanket normative statements designed to cow people. The trend in mmos with regard to death penalties is they scale them back over time and cryptic should listen to me and follow the example of top mmos out there. I am implying a higher source of this wisdom, while not citing any source/example. Man I could be a critic..... there I just employed mockery.
Or I could apply a character attack with a straw man by saying you're just upset no one will team up with your cruiser. But that doesn't get us anywhere.
Once again my points are and have been
1. Had they fully disclosed a death penalty up front, it would have influenced my buying decision.
2. Forcing B on anyone who has paid for A is unethical.
I yield the floor
Yay.
Count me in for that....
Why is anyone thinking, "new content", let alone discussing it?
I had to set aside some STO playing time to make my point in case now while I still have a chance to be heard amongst the many STO fans/players/supporters' voices along with the critiques
First, thanks very much for the February 26th News update to notify us of the prospect of changes in STO, which you've laid out for discussion in STO forum on some of these things you listed:
-- Respec
-- Death Penalty ( DP )
-- Difficulty Slider
-- More Open Auto-Fire
-- Replayable Missions
-- Improving Memory Alpha
-- Fixing those Commodities Mission
I'll only discuss 2 of the listed things since the rest is fine with me on what you have to do to improve the game.
Auto-fire. I think it's a great option to click on as like we could with the full impulse thruster toggle button. I don't mind even if it's not dealt with to give us as an option since I've managed well enough so far without it with no respawns. But it would be helpful in a bee-hive battling scenario with multiple enemy ships like bees swarming around you at every sides, which every STO players know all too well. The fast left hand/fingers coordinated dance over the keyboard trying to maneuver and maintain shields is a bit of a challenge, but it's part of the fun for what it is, I guess.
Here's an OST plausible scenario to illustrate my point:
The Enterprise having just been caught in a battle with it's long time foe after answering to the distress calls from a Federation science vessel caught just within the Orion nebula near its asteroid belt while conducting its special research mission. The Orion pirates were up to it's old tricks of ambushing ships, especially an unsuspecting Federation ship wandering in. "Chekov, target the lead ship and give 'em all we got!" Kirk orders, as he hits the captain chair's com link button. "Scotty Bridge. Give me all you got in engines. I want the Enterprise's nose to be able to smell out all the romulan ales from their six!" One of the Orion ships equipped with a new special plasma weapon cannon just fired off a shot at the Enterprise in protest to her going after the lead ship. "Sulu,, execute Delta 5 - Tango 6b." The bridge crew suddenly lurch to the starboard side as Enterprise tries to dodge the green pulsating plume, showing it's heading directly towards them on the main view screen. "Sir " the helmsman lets out. "I know." Kirk interrupted. "Enterprise. Brace for impact!" Moments later, the bridge's light flickers off and on as it shudders violently in the midst of being hit on the port side. As the smokes slowly clears from the sparks still shooting out from some bridge instrument panels, the noble ship still held together as if in defiance to being outnumbered by her foes. The captain of the Enterprise and his determine grits puts himself up first to assess the bridge situation and sees his helmsman and weapon officers are still down on the floor - motionless - and with some blood showing on them. "Dammit " Kirk utters under his breath. Hitting the comm link again. "Bones. Bridge - now!" He glanced over and sees his science officer already moving quickly in helping the nearby station communication officer back on her feet and back on her chair while right away the vulcan's already moving under some station panels to attempt restoring the bridge systems to be back fully online. Kirk immediately motion over his helmsman's chair, keying quickly some buttons trying to maintain helms control if any is left.. His luck held. He looks back over his shoulder to his first officer. Spock returns the look with a confirming nod. No words between the two friends. "Computer " Kirks calls out. 'Working..' the familiar female computer voice replied. "Access overide manual to computer M-6 weapons control. Authorization: Kirk - Omega 9741-X37 " The captain has initiated and authorize the Computer to take over control of bridge weapon controls under his direct order using his Captain special signature command key codes to override manual to comp control. Once activated the Enterprise defense is temporary under the M-6 ship weapons defense mode to act out as AI weapon officer in case of bridge officer down and or incapacitated in an emergency. "Computer, target ship A3 and maintain all weapons locks and auto firing on my command Initiates Attack pattern Apha 1-4, " Kirk gives the orders to his ship computer. 'Acknowledge.' came the reply. "Fire!" The Enterprise fires back a volley of photon torpedoes and her phaser beams blazed the Orion nebula hitting her targets, one by one Her foes shields began to melt under the great Lady's fury.
(btw, one of my favorite OST episodes was 'Balance of Terror' )
Yes, Auto-fire is a good thing to have if you ask me. A bit challenging to maintain the bridge tasks of shields modulating, firing weapons, and maneuvering -- all at the same time -- but if that's part of the intended fun of STO MMO's gaming, then so be it. I don't mind either way, really.
Now my personal takes on DP.
Why is DP an issue now when I thought you and your Cryptic Development staffs surely already set aside meetings in the initial developmental stages of STO and during the beta testing months to have decided to be apart from other MMO's to have launch the game without DP? Am sure you and your team wanted each players to have the 'freedom' to choose how they play with care in avoiding "respawn" because players who puts 'respawn' in the back their mind in game play would not truly see the fun challenge of avoiding it at all costs.
Why now in bringing up DP and without even putting it up along with other STO subscribers survey questionnaires recently? That would have been nice and shows actually how many really support DP and how many does not. I would love to know with setting aside both sides of the DP arguments. Each of us has a handle and carries a vote, so you would clearly see the numbers of where you should take this DP matters or have it just optional as if it's viable for Cryptic DEV's
When I first get a ship commissioned to my character, I try to test out what it can dish out and takes in to see the thresholds of my ship's strength and achille's heals, so to speak, by either going on battle mission or more recent in 'Fleet combat' against Klingons. Sorta like Captain's prerogative to use captain's 'Holodeck' for simulated training purposes to learn more about his/her own ship and its abilities and weaknesses, and so forth.
For example: My first Cruiser encounter with the Romulan's War Bird ( battleship ) was not successful, of course. I learn both ships' strengths and weaknesses, mine and the Romulan battleship, and I learn to play smart and be patient to wear down the War Bird's shields and gain the upper hands win as David vs Goliath. Now, if I had been punished with a DP losses during those initial encounters it would not been fair to any players starting this game to not know what it's like because they lose something along with the trials and error losses initially and they likely get frustrated and moved on to other MMO's games that's not so severe in such rewarding experiments with harsh DP's. I don't buy STO to ride behind long time STO players who've gain their skills and now presumes to dictate their hope of DP as means to be incentives to avoid resorting to Respawn when they failed to see the obvious that most STO players don't enjoy respawn as it is to not see it as 'option' even. These seasoned players supporting DP are being selfish to want what's best for them having already enjoyed the initial learning phase of the game on what ships and equipments works best on what, and now they want to deprive all those new comers of the same initial enjoyments and privileges they got to enjoyed to where they're at. That's way uncool a thinking on their part, or maybe just lack of consideration for all new players going in who may not have experience much MMO's and knows what DP even means. How others play their STO game is not my business since it's personal to each player buying this or any other games.
"Zinc", sir, you are considering giving into demands from some that makes no sense to rest of us. So please at least make such 'DP' optional to every players to choose how they want it to be, and not let these selfish DP bunch impose how they want on those who don't. The game started as IS and they play it thus far and now they want others coming into this game to suffers for what experience advantage they've already gain from trials and errors in playing with the respawn as far as they did and benefitted without any losses of credits, items , or any such forms of DP's.
If Cryptic DEV's team can't make DP optional and viable for each players to choose then stick with your original guns. If not there's alternatives. Place a Medal pin tag on player's character/ship's Icon that they and others encountering their character or ship shows how like an ace war pilot gets an enemy's flag painted on the side of their plane for every bogey kills they shot down, etc. In STO format it's under their ship's name and character icon sowing say' =A= S1 - G2. Meaning No respawn in Space battles since 100 space battles, and no Ground combat respawn since 200 ground missions. Easy to implement, and makes sense to have indicator to really show their skills. But trying to drive away new players to STO by not letting the newbies have all the previous experiences gained by all these DP advocates while repawns in their early STO beta game days is a bit harsh.
Thanks for letting me put it all out there, so now got my full say on this DP matters once and for all.
I myself paid for a lifetime subscription, not becuse the game had everything WOW and Guild Wars had, but because it is Star Trek. Some people just want what they've seen before, but I know that other Trekkers out there just want to be apart of a new "evolving" universe made in the image of Gene Rodeberry's vision.
now stop hating and have patience.
Respec - NEEDED
Death Penalty - NOT NEEDED OR OPTIONAL (Hardcore type mode perhaps?
Difficulty Slider - Could Be useful for replay missions
More open auto-fire - SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN AT RELEASE
Replayable missions - Depends on which missions and will they scale for higher level
Improving Memory Alpha - YES, give us more than upgrades
Fixing those Commodity missions - YES
New PvP maps and Fleet Actions are rather nice, too. - How about fixing the existing ones that have been broken since Beta first?
"Well, The Users think that we need to do more non-combat." - Of course, we need more than another shoot anything that moves type experience
"Guys, I'm sorry to interrupt, but The Players really want ground auto-attack back. Drop what we're doing." - Why was it ever taken out?
"We already know what you think about a death penalty, Craig but The Community really thinks it's a good idea and their opinion is more valid than yours because they probably don't own goats." - See above comment regarding this subject
I'm really looking forward to those new klingon ships especially!
Thanks very much zinc and cryptic for keeping an eye on what the players want.
It's gonna be great!
Amen brother.
I find it interesting that people who are anti-DP like myself are quite happy to put it to a vote, but I never see that call from the pro-DP crowd. Guess what? I can already give you a startelingly acurate estimate on the result. Most people don't want to be penalized. The score would be in the neighborhood of 80/20 with No DP winning.
Yes, I want more non-combat.
Yes, I want ship interiors.
AND YES, I ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY, TOTALLY WANT DEATH PENALTIES...preferably with some interactive engineering type things to make it more immersive.
THANK YOU, CRYPTIC AND STO!
I'll be sure to POST my ideas, since I can be sure you'll listen!
Right now it looks like you have some great people putting out so much of what I already want to see happen here. This game might just turn out to be...
VERY VERY AWESOME!
Sadly enough with no DP they will be back is 15 to 20 seconds to cause turmoil again and to add insult to injury they would be fully recharged and 100% operational and you on the other hand, would more than likely be depleted and/or damaged to a large degree.
I did experience why people may want this penalty once I tried to run the CE mission but I dont think that such a thing would hamper those who want to grief. I am sure they wouldjust cause us a new trype of grief.