Why was that even necessary? Isn’t he supposed to be on the Farragut? Talk about milking nostalgia for money.
The universe only gets smaller when they use old characters and aliens. There are an actual infinite number of stars in the universe—and only 4.1 billion Earth-like suns in our Galaxy. How many aliens have we seen in Star Trek? 100? Star Trek is an intellectual property with infinite potential and yet we are stuck talking forever about a handful of ships and people.
If som were here he would talk about how Star Trek has already told every possible story or because most of the galaxy has been discovered in Trek— it means that the viewer too has already met all the aliens. There is nothing left to explore.
I highly doubt it. It seems to me the writers are either trapped by the phantom—the ghost of Star Trek history—or the studio is.
The Farragut incident (where Kirk first encounter the Cloud Creature killed in TOS S2 - Obsession) occurred about the same time as Pike's and the 1701 first encounter with the Talosians in "The Cage" - so it 4 to 5 years later for Kirk if the encounter with him takes place circa 2259-2260.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
> @jonsills said:
> So Kirk's done his tour of teaching at the Academy and his stint as helm officer of the Farragut, so he's probably either made Lt Cdr or about to.
He has Captain rank braids on his uniform sleeves in the screenshot
Yeah, I'm assuming that's an error in a costume put on him for a publicity photo, given that season 1 wrapped filming in October and season 2 is currently under production. Either that, or it's for some sort of flash-forward scene, because the announcement doesn't tell us what Kirk's doing on the show, just that the role's been cast.
> @jonsills said:
> So Kirk's done his tour of teaching at the Academy and his stint as helm officer of the Farragut, so he's probably either made Lt Cdr or about to.
He has Captain rank braids on his uniform sleeves in the screenshot
Yeah, I'm assuming that's an error in a costume put on him for a publicity photo, given that season 1 wrapped filming in October and season 2 is currently under production. Either that, or it's for some sort of flash-forward scene, because the announcement doesn't tell us what Kirk's doing on the show, just that the role's been cast.
COMPUTER: James T. Kirk, serial number SC937-0176CEC. Service rank, Captain. Position, Starship command. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Commendations, Palm Leaf Of Axanar Peace Mission, Grankite Order of Tactics, Class of Excellence, Prantares Ribbon of Commendation, Classes first and second...
SHAW: May it please the court.
STONE: Court recognizes counsel for the prosecution.
SHAW: The prosecution concedes the inestimable record of Captain Kirk.
STONE: Mister Cogley?
COGLEY: I wouldn't want to slow the wheels of progress. But then on the other hand, I wouldn't want those wheels to run over my client in their unbridled haste.
STONE: Continue.
COMPUTER: Awards of valor, Medal of Honor, Silver Palm with Cluster, Starfleet citation for Conspicuous Gallantry, Karagite Order of Heroism...
COGLEY: Stop. I think that's enough. I wouldn't want to slow things up too much.
I don't think one could claim he was just sitting around as an instructor at Star Fleet Academy before he was granted command of the Enterprise.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
> @jonsills said:
> So Kirk's done his tour of teaching at the Academy and his stint as helm officer of the Farragut, so he's probably either made Lt Cdr or about to.
He has Captain rank braids on his uniform sleeves in the screenshot
Yeah, I'm assuming that's an error in a costume put on him for a publicity photo, given that season 1 wrapped filming in October and season 2 is currently under production. Either that, or it's for some sort of flash-forward scene, because the announcement doesn't tell us what Kirk's doing on the show, just that the role's been cast.
COMPUTER: James T. Kirk, serial number SC937-0176CEC. Service rank, Captain. Position, Starship command. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Commendations, Palm Leaf Of Axanar Peace Mission, Grankite Order of Tactics, Class of Excellence, Prantares Ribbon of Commendation, Classes first and second...
SHAW: May it please the court.
STONE: Court recognizes counsel for the prosecution.
SHAW: The prosecution concedes the inestimable record of Captain Kirk.
STONE: Mister Cogley?
COGLEY: I wouldn't want to slow the wheels of progress. But then on the other hand, I wouldn't want those wheels to run over my client in their unbridled haste.
STONE: Continue.
COMPUTER: Awards of valor, Medal of Honor, Silver Palm with Cluster, Starfleet citation for Conspicuous Gallantry, Karagite Order of Heroism...
COGLEY: Stop. I think that's enough. I wouldn't want to slow things up too much.
I don't think one could claim he was just sitting around as an instructor at Star Fleet Academy before he was granted command of the Enterprise.
It's the apparent captain's stripes that are in question here. It seems improbable that a man with such a record would be stuck at the rank of captain for over ten years, which is what would be required for Jim to be a captain in SNW *and* TOS (he apparently wasn't promoted to Rear Admiral until about 2 years before the events of ST:TMP). OTOH, if they want to make him a full Commander and have command of one of the fleet's less-important craft, I could understand that...
Why was that even necessary? Isn’t he supposed to be on the Farragut? Talk about milking nostalgia for money.
The universe only gets smaller when they use old characters and aliens. There are an actual infinite number of stars in the universe—and only 4.1 billion Earth-like suns in our Galaxy. How many aliens have we seen in Star Trek? 100? Star Trek is an intellectual property with infinite potential and yet we are stuck talking forever about a handful of ships and people.
If som were here he would talk about how Star Trek has already told every possible story or because most of the galaxy has been discovered in Trek— it means that the viewer too has already met all the aliens. There is nothing left to explore.
I highly doubt it. It seems to me the writers are either trapped by the phantom—the ghost of Star Trek history—or the studio is.
The Farragut incident (where Kirk first encounter the Cloud Creature killed in TOS S2 - Obsession) occurred about the same time as Pike's and the 1701 first encounter with the Talosians in "The Cage" - so it 4 to 5 years later for Kirk if the encounter with him takes place circa 2259-2260.
The first encounter with the Talosians was in 2254 when Kirk was 21 and would have been an ensign or lieutenant jg on the USS Republic, and according to A Private Little War was still on the Republic as late as 2255 when he was in charge of the ground team in the survey of Neural.
It is probable that the favorable result of that covert study mission resulted in him being put up for promotion to full lieutenant where he was rotated back to the Academy for command school. He could not have been at the academy for too long because he was on USS Farragut by 2257, so it is highly likely that the references to his being an instructor was part of command school, such as being assigned a coterie of basic program cadets to teach and whip into shape as part of his own command training.
The last solid information on Kirk past that point and before his taking command of USS Enterprise in 2265 that can be pinpointed by time is the incident with the dikironium cloud creature in 2257 where he was still considered a new full lieutenant but on board long enough to have the kind of tight bonds with the rest of the crew that his actions in Obsession imply.
It is probable that if SNW is set shortly after USS Discovery's jump to the future in 2258 that Kirk would still be serving on the Farragut, either still as a full lieutenant or possibly as a Lt. Cmdr (though it is probably too early for the latter).
It is implied that early in the 2260s that Kirk was given command of a ship (Roddenberry used to say a destroyer, but it was never in any official information) and had such success that he was given command of a capital ship (Enterprise) much earlier than normal.
Personally, I think it would have been more interesting to have had Kirk appear in the show later, in command of that destroyer with his XO Gary Mitchel (apparently the only other person to make the move from that ship to Enterprise in 2265) for a double cameo (and in the case of Mitchel a kind of macabre parallel to Pike's own dark fate).
Hopefully Kirk is not on Enterprise under Pike's command since his logs in the second pilot make it clear that he does not know Spock very well at that point and does not entirely trust him yet, a situation that is unlikely if he served under Pike and Spock on the Enterprise.
Unfortunately, if it is supposed to be a "USS Republic" badge it just underlines how little Kurtzman's team knows about Star Trek, especially TOS. Official word on badges, from an internal memo where Justman was chewing out the costume department for their blunder in Omega Glory that had captain Tracy wear some weird badge instead of the proper one (his crew all wore the standard Starship Duty badge if you look closely at the uniforms scattered around, btw).
In essence there are only six different emblems, and those are division badges, not individual ship insignia (the first alternate badge seen on the show was on the crew of a merchant marine ship from the Auxillary division, not a war ship). All of those "ship emblem charts" are fan-made, not studio made (and they only agree with each other because they are all based on the first fan-made chart that was passed around at conventions and published in fanzines).
There is a page here that goes into the myth that each starship had its own badge, and has a copy of the official memo:
Sometime shortly before TMP, Starfleet apparently simplified their emblems so everyone on active duty used the delta regardless of which division they were assigned to.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,670Community Moderator
In that sense, Discovery did uphold intended canon of using the arrowhead for ship service. The only time ships actually DID have individual ship insignia was back in the 22nd Century, most notably among the NX class.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The thing is though, stuff said off-screen isn't actually canon. While there are plenty of things I don't like in the new Trek, whether they follow some off-screen memo certainly won't be one of them.
At least you can embed a picture. I can never figure it out
If you look along the "tool bar" along the top of the text box, you should see a button with what looks like a portrait. You click that, and you can put a URL into the offered text field. Depending on the format it will automatically generate the {img} tags to go around it. Otherwise you can manually put in the {img} and {/img} tags around the URL. (replace { with [ )
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
It seems the individual ship badges are now canon, the way STO implemented it as well. It would have been great if they had honoured the original intent, but you can't really blame them in this instance because the shows were never really consistent in that regard.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> @rattler2 said: > If you look along the "tool bar" along the top of the text box, you should see a button with what looks like a portrait. You click that, and you can put a URL into the offered text field. Depending on the format it will automatically generate the {img} tags to go around it. Otherwise you can manually put in the {img} and {/img} tags around the URL. (replace { with [ ) Thanks Rattler!
I tried both those methods and neither worked. Maybe it’s a problem with the iPhone’s Safari interface or keyboard.
The thing is though, stuff said off-screen isn't actually canon. While there are plenty of things I don't like in the new Trek, whether they follow some off-screen memo certainly won't be one of them.
Except that internal memos like that control what is seen on the screen, and therefore control canon, and TOS never showed any badges except for those six and the one mistake that was made with Tracy (and even then the rest of the crew of the Exeter wore the delta which confirms that the rectangle was a costuming error, not a "ship badge"), so canon favors the off-screen official memo, not the fanzine chart. Of course the "only what is seen onscreen" thing is an oversimplification of the Star Trek canon anyway, but that is a subject for a different thread.
The fact that they made a common error in ENT does not change the facts established in TOS, and it isn't like they never made errors in ENT. Even the TOS-Remastered stuff has its share of errors (though not in regard to the badges).
I used to like the idea of custom ship badges too, before I realized that with thousands of ships simple badge shapes to denote which ship a person came from without words would not be practical at all, and that memo along with the story behind it (it was published in The Making of Star Trek back in the seventies) just made so much more sense than the "ship badge" myth.
The hilarious part of that "USS Defiant badge" seen in that ENT episode is that it isn't a badge at all, it is the pennant for Starfleet itself, not a unique identifier for any individual ship. In fact, that symbol is painted on the side of the Enterprise and all the other Constitution class ships shown (which it would not be if it was the symbol for a particular ship) and appears in a lot of the rooms in the interior of the ship and on the walls in fleet bases like the one here:
along with being seen behind every admiral seen on the mainscreen.
As for the pictures not showing, Vanilla can only handle jpeg images so none of the webp ones that are so common on the web now don't work, and even a lot of the jpegs get borked.
I look forward to Kirk’s return and hope the keep this character in alignment with bold, heroic, and inspiring character he was in TOS. James T. Kirk has been a hero of mine since I was young. It would be a major personal disappointment to me if they changed him up in SNW.
I have always favored the individual ship insignia for ships in the TOS era. I understand the Justman memo, but I accept more what I saw in “The Omega Glory” and “The Doomsday Machine” and later in that mirror universe ENT episode. I really like that Kirk in the SNW shows a unique ship insignia along those lines.
Hopefully he commands a ship that is a smaller and older ship that fits the premise that it was a stepping stone to command of the Enterprise later.
I look forward to Kirk’s return and hope the keep this character in alignment with bold, heroic, and inspiring character he was in TOS. James T. Kirk has been a hero of mine since I was young. It would be a major personal disappointment to me if they changed him up in SNW.
Yeah, same here. I don't mind him being slightly less mature/confident, but I hope they don't try to take him in any 'new direction'. As long as he is consistent with the character we saw in TOS/movies it's all good.
That no money thing has always been a myth, they just don't have a hard-cash currency, and biometrics make the person their own credit card, so they don't have to carry one of those either.
False, its been explicitly stated. Picard explicitly states money does not exist in the 24th century in first contact
I look forward to Kirk’s return and hope the keep this character in alignment with bold, heroic, and inspiring character he was in TOS. James T. Kirk has been a hero of mine since I was young. It would be a major personal disappointment to me if they changed him up in SNW.
I have always favored the individual ship insignia for ships in the TOS era. I understand the Justman memo, but I accept more what I saw in “The Omega Glory” and “The Doomsday Machine” and later in that mirror universe ENT episode. I really like that Kirk in the SNW shows a unique ship insignia along those lines.
Hopefully he commands a ship that is a smaller and older ship that fits the premise that it was a stepping stone to command of the Enterprise later.
I hope that they get Kirk right too.
Pike was pretty much right on (According to Roddenberry he was modeled after Hornblower, the "gentleman officer with humble beginnings" type), and the Kelvin timeline Kirk was not too bad so they have a good start if they can get rid of the overconfident to the point of stupidity part the Kelvin one has.
Kirk was originally based on some civil war generals (I forget which) but in the 1970s Roddenberry started using captain Richard Bolitho from Douglas Reeman's Bolitho novels as an example of the type he was thinking of when he created Kirk. Think of a mix of tactically brilliant thinker, charismatic grifter, and loose cannon in the right proportions to get a very unusual officer instead of a criminal.
Captain Tracy's badge in The Omega Glory was the only one that was not on the list, and it was an error that was caught too late to correct before the episode was released. All but one (the chief medical officer, and that was part of the error Justman was blasting the wardrobe department about) of the rest of the crew of the Exeter wore the correct delta insignia.
Commodore Decker's badge in The Doomsday Machine was the partial-starflower badge that signified a commodore who was not assigned to a headquarters unit like a starbase, but rather a (presumably junior) commodore with a mobile field command instead. If any of his crew was still around instead of eaten with the planet they would wear the standard delta.
Commodore Wesely wore the full starflower because he was assigned to a headquarters unit. He temporarily planted his flag on the USS Lexington just for the wargames testing the M5. In the background there is a brief glimpse of one of the ship's regular crew where the delta is visible. In addition, if those were 'ship badges' instead of division badges then Wesely would have been wearing the supposed Lexington badge instead of the starflower, which according to the usual fanmade charts:
would have been a diamond over a sort of four-leaf-clover shape as shown by the first one on the bottom row.
That no money thing has always been a myth, they just don't have a hard-cash currency, and biometrics make the person their own credit card, so they don't have to carry one of those either.
False, its been explicitly stated. Picard explicitly states money does not exist in the 24th century in first contact
Yes, he did say that but it was obvious that he was impatient and just giving her the quickest approximate answer instead of delving into the details of their post-scarcity society and how the average person can get away with ignoring economic concerns entirely because their basic living stipend covers it all without handling any cash or credit IDs. He also makes it very plain in the series that he considers Starfleet and science a calling and does not care about money as long as it does not keep him from heeding that call.
Picard pontificates about that a bit in TNG in a few episodes, and on DS9 Jake and Nog just as explicitly talk about exchanging some of Jake's Federation Credits into GPL. So there IS money of a sort, though it has no physical existence in the Federation and only exists as numbers in rarely if ever looked at accounts.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,670Community Moderator
There's also the fact that Replicators do tend to make getting things a lot easier. Sure you still have tailor shops and everything, even restaurants, but replicators do kinda make the need for cash kinda moot.
However, not all races are as generous as the Federation, and there is a need for some form of currency for trade. But for all intents and purposes, cost of ships/equipment and the persuit of monetary wealth is virturally non-existent within Starfleet itself. So why would you try and assign a dollar value to a starship like the Enterprise or bother with saying how much you make? Kinda pointless in a post-scarcity economy like the Federation.
I'm sure the La Sirena cost some credits, but that's on the civilian side of things. Something we really haven't gotten an in depth look at outside of Picard.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Kirk says there is no money in the future when they get pizza in TVH. I'm NOT crazy about Kirk Uhura and Chapel being in SNW. the only crossover is spock. and a child of Khan? all the augments left on the botany bay
I expect that maybe money doesn't exist (in a non-literal sense, because it's flat-out impossible to run any sort of advanced society with NO exchange medium at all, nor is it possible to interact with other nations who DO use it) in the Federation's core worlds because they're fully developed, replicators on every street corner, etc....but on the fringe, things aren't QUITE so utopian - how many episodes of early TNG has made that clear that a lot of the Federation's outlying colonies are constantly in need of some basic resource or another? And every time money has come up in an episode that wasn't just as part of a quote (like McCoy referencing giving real money if Chang would shut up) it was always on the fringe - K7, DS9 and so on, so I would expect money to show up there even within the Federation.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,670Community Moderator
Kirk says there is no money in the future when they get pizza in TVH. I'm NOT crazy about Kirk Uhura and Chapel being in SNW. the only crossover is spock. and a child of Khan? all the augments left on the botany bay
It would make sense if Kirk wasn't a Captain at the time though. Maybe a Lieutenant. Commander at most. Uhura... having her as a Cadet at the time allows for her to be there, and Chapel I don't mind because some officers do stick around on ships.
As for the descendant of Khan... we don't know if she's an augment or just the descendant of one. The circumstances of her ancestry could be as simple as Khan had a lover before he left who didn't know she was pregnant until after he left. That would allow for a descendant into the 23rd Century.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
They had an augment in The Cage so having one in SNW is actually doing it right for a change, even though the augment is a different person in SNW. In The Cage it was Number One, which is the reason she had to rely on conscious adherence to Kantian ethics rules instead of depending on her own (defective) moral sense.
In her bio it said something along the lines of not all of the eugenics people were rounded up, some of the less morally damaged ones either switched sides or just faded into the normal population and disappeared until things cooled off, and in the meantime developed ways to overcome the social problems they had with things like the logic and Kantian rules stuff. They were rare even by the time of TOS but small communities of them still existed.
Of course, there is nothing said of her history in the dialog of the pilot and her rather peculiar personality is the only hint of it, so it is all behind-the-scenes stuff as far as 'canon' is concerned. On the other hand, I prefer that they take the original author's ideas like that into account in sequels, but not everyone cares about things like that.
Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,670Community Moderator
edited March 2022
IMO I'm just interested in seeing where they take the characters. It could be that in some instances going with some elements of intended behind the scenes stuff from the 60s might not work out as well, so adapt what you can. Honestly from what I remember of the times Una showed up in Discovery (As I didn't see the Short Treks with her) she was a serious officer, but there were some hints of devious. I swear she enjoyed annoying the officer who asked for her name and rank in the season 2 finale. Which I don't mind at all.
There was also that scene with the food, and apparently her love of spicy when she was aboard Discovery.
Being able to flesh out these characters that were really only seen once, like Number One, is great. And IMO so far the casting choices they made have worked out very well. Anson Mount fits Pike like a glove, and I mean to the levels of Robert Downey Jr IS Iron Man glove. And I am looking forward to seeing more of Number One. Maybe Pike gave her that nickname because her name is Una, and she just owns it now like a badge of honor.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
> @rattler2 said:
> If you look along the "tool bar" along the top of the text box, you should see a button with what looks like a portrait. You click that, and you can put a URL into the offered text field. Depending on the format it will automatically generate the {img} tags to go around it. Otherwise you can manually put in the {img} and {/img} tags around the URL. (replace { with [ )
Thanks Rattler!
I tried both those methods and neither worked. Maybe it’s a problem with the iPhone’s Safari interface or keyboard.
Might be an interface issue. The Vanilla software is designed to be used with computers, rather than phones.
Comments
The Farragut incident (where Kirk first encounter the Cloud Creature killed in TOS S2 - Obsession) occurred about the same time as Pike's and the 1701 first encounter with the Talosians in "The Cage" - so it 4 to 5 years later for Kirk if the encounter with him takes place circa 2259-2260.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Flash Forward/Time Travel, etc. Given Kirk's award history from TOS S1 - "Court Martial":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/15.htm
I don't think one could claim he was just sitting around as an instructor at Star Fleet Academy before he was granted command of the Enterprise.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The first encounter with the Talosians was in 2254 when Kirk was 21 and would have been an ensign or lieutenant jg on the USS Republic, and according to A Private Little War was still on the Republic as late as 2255 when he was in charge of the ground team in the survey of Neural.
It is probable that the favorable result of that covert study mission resulted in him being put up for promotion to full lieutenant where he was rotated back to the Academy for command school. He could not have been at the academy for too long because he was on USS Farragut by 2257, so it is highly likely that the references to his being an instructor was part of command school, such as being assigned a coterie of basic program cadets to teach and whip into shape as part of his own command training.
The last solid information on Kirk past that point and before his taking command of USS Enterprise in 2265 that can be pinpointed by time is the incident with the dikironium cloud creature in 2257 where he was still considered a new full lieutenant but on board long enough to have the kind of tight bonds with the rest of the crew that his actions in Obsession imply.
It is probable that if SNW is set shortly after USS Discovery's jump to the future in 2258 that Kirk would still be serving on the Farragut, either still as a full lieutenant or possibly as a Lt. Cmdr (though it is probably too early for the latter).
It is implied that early in the 2260s that Kirk was given command of a ship (Roddenberry used to say a destroyer, but it was never in any official information) and had such success that he was given command of a capital ship (Enterprise) much earlier than normal.
Personally, I think it would have been more interesting to have had Kirk appear in the show later, in command of that destroyer with his XO Gary Mitchel (apparently the only other person to make the move from that ship to Enterprise in 2265) for a double cameo (and in the case of Mitchel a kind of macabre parallel to Pike's own dark fate).
Hopefully Kirk is not on Enterprise under Pike's command since his logs in the second pilot make it clear that he does not know Spock very well at that point and does not entirely trust him yet, a situation that is unlikely if he served under Pike and Spock on the Enterprise.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Unfortunately, if it is supposed to be a "USS Republic" badge it just underlines how little Kurtzman's team knows about Star Trek, especially TOS. Official word on badges, from an internal memo where Justman was chewing out the costume department for their blunder in Omega Glory that had captain Tracy wear some weird badge instead of the proper one (his crew all wore the standard Starship Duty badge if you look closely at the uniforms scattered around, btw).
In essence there are only six different emblems, and those are division badges, not individual ship insignia (the first alternate badge seen on the show was on the crew of a merchant marine ship from the Auxillary division, not a war ship). All of those "ship emblem charts" are fan-made, not studio made (and they only agree with each other because they are all based on the first fan-made chart that was passed around at conventions and published in fanzines).
There is a page here that goes into the myth that each starship had its own badge, and has a copy of the official memo:
https://startrek.com/article/starfleet-insignia-explained
Sometime shortly before TMP, Starfleet apparently simplified their emblems so everyone on active duty used the delta regardless of which division they were assigned to.
I give up trying to resize with BBCode...
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
I know about the memo too, but TOS was rather sloppy about the implementation— and remember ENT used USS Defiant badges in the Mirror Darkly.
At least you can embed a picture. I can never figure it out
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6xoH967aC00/STKSDJ1KTCI/AAAAAAAAOys/P4RDgFFW5Ys/s1600-h/ST723.jpg”>
The thing is though, stuff said off-screen isn't actually canon. While there are plenty of things I don't like in the new Trek, whether they follow some off-screen memo certainly won't be one of them.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
If you look along the "tool bar" along the top of the text box, you should see a button with what looks like a portrait. You click that, and you can put a URL into the offered text field. Depending on the format it will automatically generate the {img} tags to go around it. Otherwise you can manually put in the {img} and {/img} tags around the URL. (replace { with [ )
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Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
> If you look along the "tool bar" along the top of the text box, you should see a button with what looks like a portrait. You click that, and you can put a URL into the offered text field. Depending on the format it will automatically generate the {img} tags to go around it. Otherwise you can manually put in the {img} and {/img} tags around the URL. (replace { with [ )
Thanks Rattler!
I tried both those methods and neither worked. Maybe it’s a problem with the iPhone’s Safari interface or keyboard.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6xoH967aC00/STKSDJ1KTCI/AAAAAAAAOys/P4RDgFFW5Ys/s1600-h/ST723.jpg [/img]
Except that internal memos like that control what is seen on the screen, and therefore control canon, and TOS never showed any badges except for those six and the one mistake that was made with Tracy (and even then the rest of the crew of the Exeter wore the delta which confirms that the rectangle was a costuming error, not a "ship badge"), so canon favors the off-screen official memo, not the fanzine chart. Of course the "only what is seen onscreen" thing is an oversimplification of the Star Trek canon anyway, but that is a subject for a different thread.
The fact that they made a common error in ENT does not change the facts established in TOS, and it isn't like they never made errors in ENT. Even the TOS-Remastered stuff has its share of errors (though not in regard to the badges).
I used to like the idea of custom ship badges too, before I realized that with thousands of ships simple badge shapes to denote which ship a person came from without words would not be practical at all, and that memo along with the story behind it (it was published in The Making of Star Trek back in the seventies) just made so much more sense than the "ship badge" myth.
The hilarious part of that "USS Defiant badge" seen in that ENT episode is that it isn't a badge at all, it is the pennant for Starfleet itself, not a unique identifier for any individual ship. In fact, that symbol is painted on the side of the Enterprise and all the other Constitution class ships shown (which it would not be if it was the symbol for a particular ship) and appears in a lot of the rooms in the interior of the ship and on the walls in fleet bases like the one here:
https://res.cloudinary.com/startrekdesignproject-com/image/upload/c_fill,w_1140,f_auto/v1556234660/Starfleet_Pennant1.webp
the one above is in a Starfleet building and in the one below notice the pennant in yellow on the red "racing stripe" on the secondary hull:
along with being seen behind every admiral seen on the mainscreen.
As for the pictures not showing, Vanilla can only handle jpeg images so none of the webp ones that are so common on the web now don't work, and even a lot of the jpegs get borked.
I have always favored the individual ship insignia for ships in the TOS era. I understand the Justman memo, but I accept more what I saw in “The Omega Glory” and “The Doomsday Machine” and later in that mirror universe ENT episode. I really like that Kirk in the SNW shows a unique ship insignia along those lines.
Hopefully he commands a ship that is a smaller and older ship that fits the premise that it was a stepping stone to command of the Enterprise later.
Yeah, same here. I don't mind him being slightly less mature/confident, but I hope they don't try to take him in any 'new direction'. As long as he is consistent with the character we saw in TOS/movies it's all good.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
False, its been explicitly stated. Picard explicitly states money does not exist in the 24th century in first contact
I hope that they get Kirk right too.
Pike was pretty much right on (According to Roddenberry he was modeled after Hornblower, the "gentleman officer with humble beginnings" type), and the Kelvin timeline Kirk was not too bad so they have a good start if they can get rid of the overconfident to the point of stupidity part the Kelvin one has.
Kirk was originally based on some civil war generals (I forget which) but in the 1970s Roddenberry started using captain Richard Bolitho from Douglas Reeman's Bolitho novels as an example of the type he was thinking of when he created Kirk. Think of a mix of tactically brilliant thinker, charismatic grifter, and loose cannon in the right proportions to get a very unusual officer instead of a criminal.
Captain Tracy's badge in The Omega Glory was the only one that was not on the list, and it was an error that was caught too late to correct before the episode was released. All but one (the chief medical officer, and that was part of the error Justman was blasting the wardrobe department about) of the rest of the crew of the Exeter wore the correct delta insignia.
Commodore Decker's badge in The Doomsday Machine was the partial-starflower badge that signified a commodore who was not assigned to a headquarters unit like a starbase, but rather a (presumably junior) commodore with a mobile field command instead. If any of his crew was still around instead of eaten with the planet they would wear the standard delta.
Commodore Wesely wore the full starflower because he was assigned to a headquarters unit. He temporarily planted his flag on the USS Lexington just for the wargames testing the M5. In the background there is a brief glimpse of one of the ship's regular crew where the delta is visible. In addition, if those were 'ship badges' instead of division badges then Wesely would have been wearing the supposed Lexington badge instead of the starflower, which according to the usual fanmade charts:
would have been a diamond over a sort of four-leaf-clover shape as shown by the first one on the bottom row.
Yes, he did say that but it was obvious that he was impatient and just giving her the quickest approximate answer instead of delving into the details of their post-scarcity society and how the average person can get away with ignoring economic concerns entirely because their basic living stipend covers it all without handling any cash or credit IDs. He also makes it very plain in the series that he considers Starfleet and science a calling and does not care about money as long as it does not keep him from heeding that call.
Picard pontificates about that a bit in TNG in a few episodes, and on DS9 Jake and Nog just as explicitly talk about exchanging some of Jake's Federation Credits into GPL. So there IS money of a sort, though it has no physical existence in the Federation and only exists as numbers in rarely if ever looked at accounts.
However, not all races are as generous as the Federation, and there is a need for some form of currency for trade. But for all intents and purposes, cost of ships/equipment and the persuit of monetary wealth is virturally non-existent within Starfleet itself. So why would you try and assign a dollar value to a starship like the Enterprise or bother with saying how much you make? Kinda pointless in a post-scarcity economy like the Federation.
I'm sure the La Sirena cost some credits, but that's on the civilian side of things. Something we really haven't gotten an in depth look at outside of Picard.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It would make sense if Kirk wasn't a Captain at the time though. Maybe a Lieutenant. Commander at most. Uhura... having her as a Cadet at the time allows for her to be there, and Chapel I don't mind because some officers do stick around on ships.
As for the descendant of Khan... we don't know if she's an augment or just the descendant of one. The circumstances of her ancestry could be as simple as Khan had a lover before he left who didn't know she was pregnant until after he left. That would allow for a descendant into the 23rd Century.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In her bio it said something along the lines of not all of the eugenics people were rounded up, some of the less morally damaged ones either switched sides or just faded into the normal population and disappeared until things cooled off, and in the meantime developed ways to overcome the social problems they had with things like the logic and Kantian rules stuff. They were rare even by the time of TOS but small communities of them still existed.
Of course, there is nothing said of her history in the dialog of the pilot and her rather peculiar personality is the only hint of it, so it is all behind-the-scenes stuff as far as 'canon' is concerned. On the other hand, I prefer that they take the original author's ideas like that into account in sequels, but not everyone cares about things like that.
There was also that scene with the food, and apparently her love of spicy when she was aboard Discovery.
Being able to flesh out these characters that were really only seen once, like Number One, is great. And IMO so far the casting choices they made have worked out very well. Anson Mount fits Pike like a glove, and I mean to the levels of Robert Downey Jr IS Iron Man glove. And I am looking forward to seeing more of Number One. Maybe Pike gave her that nickname because her name is Una, and she just owns it now like a badge of honor.
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