It is easy to point to existing species and say, "well look at all these differences!" They didn't start out different, though. They evolved divergently, supposedly gradually. Here we are looking at groups that can interbreed, thus their DNA is obviously compatible, yet trying to call them different species based on superficial differences. That doesn't make a lot of sense, as most species do have a lot of superficial differences among them.
That still doesn't explain how a Vulcan, with Copper based GREEN BLOOD, can be considered "the same species" as Humans with Iron based RED BLOOD. Or the fact that its been pointed out many times that the location of organs in Vulcans is different from Humans, their Psionic capabilities compared to humans, sheer physical strength and enhanced senses, the longer natural lifespans...
And then we have Klingons with redundant organs...
And please don't tell me you think Humans and Ferengi might be the same species too because there's no way in hell that is true.
You want to know why most humanoid species are genetically compatible with each other? The Preservers seeding life across the galaxy. That is why there's so many humanoid species.
Like I said, Star Trek is fiction. There is no realistic way that Vulcans and humans are the same species. Yet that has to be reconciled with the fact that they can reproduce and have viable offspring themselves able to reproduce (at least Klingons-humans are certain, while I don't think there are any half-Vulcan(Romulan) parents. Sela and Spock don't have children.)
(Oh, and fox, those were separate species by taxonomy, with clear physiological differences, but plainly they were able to create viable, fertile offspring, as witnessed by the fact that about 3% of the modern human genome can be traced to neanderthal ancestors. Please forget Linnaeus and study a little modern evolutionary biology.)
I'm not sure you understand what you're saying. Linneaus classified species by precisely what everyone else is doing here, and what I am arguing against. They look different so they are a different species. Yes we are beyond that, and that's the issue I'm pointing out.
Species is a hard concept to define with the chaos that DNA causes but the easiest way to do so for sexually reproducing animals is to use the reproductive limits of a group. Consider that Klingons in canon can look radically different, yet they are all Klingons. Whether it is the augment virus Klingons, the Klingorcs of ST:D or the TMP/TNG era Klingons, they are all the same (sub)species: Klingons. Yet they can also successfully produce human/klingon offspring (Torres) that itself can reproduce (Miral Paris) and that means that humans and klingons are the same species.
Consider, do all humans (who can reproduce) have the same organs? No. Coloration? No. Ability to see color? No. Muscle mass? No. Blood type? No. Susceptibility to a given disease? No. The one thing that unites humans is reproduction. DNA makes us very diverse otherwise.
Then there is epigenetics. Klingons have extra organs which humans don't. But that doesn't make them a different species necessarily. In fact, Trek could decide that humans, under the right conditions activate epigenetic triggers that cause them to also grow backup organs, and that means it is already there in our DNA, just inactive. McCoy did give a woman a pill to grow a new kidney, afterall, which could have just activated a latent part of her DNA.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
And yet, scans can tell the difference between a human and a non human. There is FAR MORE than just "Can they reproduce" that identifies distinct species.
Arne Darvin was exposed as a Klingon even though he appeared human when McCoy finally took a Tricorder to him. And even TRIBBLES can tell the difference between a human and a Klingon.
A starship can tell the difference between human, Klingon, and even Cardassian and Bajoran lifesigns. Hell... it can even tell BORG lifesigns, despite the fact that your argument basically rules them out as a species because THEY DON'T REPRODUCE.
I'm sorry but I don't see the ability to reproduce being a deciding factor, or even the only factor because we're all human apparently even if we're from Qo'noS, Andoria, Vulcan, or Romulus.
Yes humans are quite diverse on Earth, but we all have the same traits that identify us as Human, even with some genetic drift that makes distinct ethnic groups. Our DNA identifies us as Human. Same is true of Vulcan DNA identifiying them as Vulcan, and so on. Again... Genetic Compatibility does NOT equal SAME SPECIES. The Preservers seeded life, hence that whole TNG episode revealing how many species are related because one ancient species was lonely. How that life developed into the various species of the galaxy differs from planet to planet through evolution, but they all had the same foundation block, which in turn imparts a compatibility despite the fact that they all developed differently. As a STRETCH, it would be far more acceptable to say that most humanoid species are children of the Preservers. Not that "they're all human because Miral Paris."
Okay.... lets try and re-rail this badly derailed thread.....
'New' Dedication plaque for the Enterprise, apparently taken on the set on SNW:
I LIKE! That is awesome. It maintains the classic "Starship Class" while also identifying the specific class OF starship. It kinda ties in the look of the original dedication plaque with future iterations.
Also I noticed, although hard to see...
Chief of Staff: R. Roddenberry
And I think a CNIC (Probably wrong, can't make it out) Gene Roddenberry
I suspect that the Preservers included some kind of exotic bridge code in the protoDNA they seeded so many planets with, which overrides the usual reproduction barriers when mating with other species that have the code. It was kind of very obliquely implied in TNG in the preserver episode though unlike most things they did not technobabble it to death to hammer the idea home so it is not a hard-and-fast certainty by any means.
The whole species argument is moot, because the show itself classifies humans and all the other beings as different species in dialogue, even in the recent shows. That's it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And yet, scans can tell the difference between a human and a non human. There is FAR MORE than just "Can they reproduce" that identifies distinct species.
Arne Darvin was exposed as a Klingon even though he appeared human when McCoy finally took a Tricorder to him. And even TRIBBLES can tell the difference between a human and a Klingon.
A starship can tell the difference between human, Klingon, and even Cardassian and Bajoran lifesigns. Hell... it can even tell BORG lifesigns, despite the fact that your argument basically rules them out as a species because THEY DON'T REPRODUCE.
I'm sorry but I don't see the ability to reproduce being a deciding factor, or even the only factor because we're all human apparently even if we're from Qo'noS, Andoria, Vulcan, or Romulus.
Yes humans are quite diverse on Earth, but we all have the same traits that identify us as Human, even with some genetic drift that makes distinct ethnic groups. Our DNA identifies us as Human. Same is true of Vulcan DNA identifiying them as Vulcan, and so on. Again... Genetic Compatibility does NOT equal SAME SPECIES. The Preservers seeded life, hence that whole TNG episode revealing how many species are related because one ancient species was lonely. How that life developed into the various species of the galaxy differs from planet to planet through evolution, but they all had the same foundation block, which in turn imparts a compatibility despite the fact that they all developed differently. As a STRETCH, it would be far more acceptable to say that most humanoid species are children of the Preservers. Not that "they're all human because Miral Paris."
Yes, actually genetic compatibility does equal same species, by definition. The problem here is that all these superficial and internal differences between klingons and humans still result in no difference on a species level, because despite all the differences, they are still so genetically close that they can reproduce and their offspring can reproduce. If they are different species, what species is Torres?
Klingons and humans would be different subspecies, having obvious differences that a tricorder can pick up, just like it can tell the difference between a man and woman despite the different DNA of the two genders, different organs and physical appearances and so on, or just like DNA can tell races apart.
Borg aren't a species, of course. That's a weird statement to make because Borg are comprised of assimilated life forms, all from different species (or subspecies) not their own unique organism.
And sure we can say Star Trek calls them all different species and shrug, but the fact is they are just using the word in a particularly archaic form that doesn't actually mean anything because it offers very poor and inconsistent classifications of organisms. You don't have to like calling klingons and humans the same species, but the problem is it is consistent by using a reproductive definition, which itself is inherently and necessarily based on DNA similarities.
Now to recall why I even brought all this up was the idea of cannibalism. Consider that if a klingon and human have a child, the parents could eat the other one and it would not be considered cannibalism if we call them two different species. Does that honestly make sense? What about the child? Can the child eat both parents and its not cannibalism? Eating your own blood relatives or the other parent of your child is surely cannibalism, and the taboo against it is for essentially that reason. Chopping up family for food is clearly something any society or species should abhor.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
...
...
*facedesk*
Maybe you should start a thread dedicated to this philosophical debate. Or I should learn how to split posts off into a new thread...
Fox, your "scientific knowledge" appears to have frozen somewhere around grade-school biology. Get back to us when you learn more.
Meanwhile, still digging that dedication plaque. And I wonder if we might see a young Dr. McCoy, fresh out of the academy and working on his multispecies internship, spending a short time learning from Dr. Boyce aboard Pike's Enterprise?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
So I saw on youtube they released some images of the new Transporter Room. While it is bigger than the TOS one, they did bring in many elements from TOS and adapt them to the modern look, even getting the odd greenish back paneling from TOS adapted over.
That 'odd greenish back paneling' was probably a green screen they didn't build right, or use the right camera settings for...assuming green screens were a thing back int he 60s.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
No. Back then it probably would have been blue screens.
And it wasn't meant to be either because they had wavy patterns. Also they didn't go all the way across the back to be effective as there were angles they shot the transporter from where that wasn't behind everyone.
Fox, your "scientific knowledge" appears to have frozen somewhere around grade-school biology. Get back to us when you learn more.
Meanwhile, still digging that dedication plaque. And I wonder if we might see a young Dr. McCoy, fresh out of the academy and working on his multispecies internship, spending a short time learning from Dr. Boyce aboard Pike's Enterprise?
Except your complaints of my knowledge were wildly wrong, and should have been aimed at other posters.
Maybe you should start a thread dedicated to this philosophical debate. Or I should learn how to split posts off into a new thread...
If you don't want spinoff discussions then don't engage in them. Its only natural, though, to go from one topic tangential to another in a discussion. I saw an interesting comment and pointed out a problem with it. Some Star Trek nerd nitpicking a detail, that's never happened before!
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I don't mind going off in another direction for a bit, but ultimately it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and is growing to a point where it should probably have its own thread.
I think out of universe those green wavy panels are there as decorations to make the set more interesting to look at and also probably to add color to the set to show that they're in fact filming in color (since when TOS came out color TVs weren't that great in quality so muted colors might seem black and white).
It was probably supposed to be some sort of special material, like an energized crystal panel or whatever as part of the transporter. The tech on TOS was supposed to be higher tech and more alien then it was in later shows, the 1970s was a sort of regression from the futuristic aspects of sci-fi and settled into the "future tech is just like today, only smaller" approach that it has been stuck on since.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
When does the next Star Trek show (whatever it is) start. I am getting star-trek hungry.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I think they wrapped up filming SNW recently, so its basically now down to visual effects, the CG stuff... and... probably either next year or near the end of this year for SNW. Also looks like Prodigy is getting closer as we now have an image for the new ship.
Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign.
Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign.
Jareth, Leonin Titan ... approves. XD
It would be about nine years too early for M'Ress on the Enterprise, supposedly she did not join the crew until 2269. Her backstory is vague enough though that she might have spent a short time on it as an ensign but left before 2265 if you ignore the line in TAS about significantly mixed crews being a new thing because of improved medical and life support tech.
It would be about nine years too early for M'Ress on the Enterprise, supposedly she did not join the crew until 2269. Her backstory is vague enough though that she might have spent a short time on it as an ensign but left before 2265 if you ignore the line in TAS about significantly mixed crews being a new thing because of improved medical and life support tech.
Well... technically speaking TAS is in a bit of a gray zone on canon status. Feels like some parts are while others aren't. Thanks to Discovery, I think we can say that M'Ress saying that mixed crews are new can be thrown out as we see a much more diverse Starfleet. Its a common issue with prequels showing more than what was in the original, or showing things that are different from what we were told of in the originals of that time period.
I think in that case a quote from a certain Master of another franchise is accurate.
So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
While it might be too early for M'Ress... its not too early to say there was a Caitian at some point. Or they could pull the same thing they did with Tuvok and say that M'Ress had joined earlier, than took a leave of absense before rejoining.
For sure. He's almost like "Captain America" set in the Star Trek universe. Like Cornwell told him, he and the Enterprise were "the best of Starfleet":
"You sat out the war because if we'd lost to the Klingons, we wanted the best of Starfleet to survive. And as this conversation makes clear, that was you… and all you represent."
He's a very inspirational character and I'm really looking forward to the show.
Also, I think I might have posted about this before but this was a pretty good story about Pike and the Enterprise crew before S2 of Discovery:
Yeah I read “Enterprise War” based on your recommendation last time. It was pretty good. It certainly kept me entertained for 2 or 3 days. Thanks for the recommendation.
if they avoid all the temporal stupidities and the mirror TRIBBLE, then this tv show will be perhaps very interesting.
Ah... but Jason Issacs has said he is interested in returning as Lorca, which means we may have to have some Mirror shenanigans as we never actually saw Prime Lorca dead. Its just assumed that he's dead. If Prime Lorca is as resourceful as his Mirror counterpart, I can see him surviving over there long enough to figure out how to get back, and maybe end up aboard the Enterprise.
if they avoid all the temporal stupidities and the mirror TRIBBLE, then this tv show will be perhaps very interesting.
Ah... but Jason Issacs has said he is interested in returning as Lorca, which means we may have to have some Mirror shenanigans as we never actually saw Prime Lorca dead. Its just assumed that he's dead. If Prime Lorca is as resourceful as his Mirror counterpart, I can see him surviving over there long enough to figure out how to get back, and maybe end up aboard the Enterprise.
Issacs would be good at playing a part like that, with Federation ideals at his core but with a tough outer shell of pragmatism and multi-layered guile built up from his time in the MU. He may even be prone to the light problems of the mirror universe Terrans after having been there so long (along with possible covert medical treatments there to blend in better).
Comments
Like I said, Star Trek is fiction. There is no realistic way that Vulcans and humans are the same species. Yet that has to be reconciled with the fact that they can reproduce and have viable offspring themselves able to reproduce (at least Klingons-humans are certain, while I don't think there are any half-Vulcan(Romulan) parents. Sela and Spock don't have children.)
I'm not sure you understand what you're saying. Linneaus classified species by precisely what everyone else is doing here, and what I am arguing against. They look different so they are a different species. Yes we are beyond that, and that's the issue I'm pointing out.
Species is a hard concept to define with the chaos that DNA causes but the easiest way to do so for sexually reproducing animals is to use the reproductive limits of a group. Consider that Klingons in canon can look radically different, yet they are all Klingons. Whether it is the augment virus Klingons, the Klingorcs of ST:D or the TMP/TNG era Klingons, they are all the same (sub)species: Klingons. Yet they can also successfully produce human/klingon offspring (Torres) that itself can reproduce (Miral Paris) and that means that humans and klingons are the same species.
Consider, do all humans (who can reproduce) have the same organs? No. Coloration? No. Ability to see color? No. Muscle mass? No. Blood type? No. Susceptibility to a given disease? No. The one thing that unites humans is reproduction. DNA makes us very diverse otherwise.
Then there is epigenetics. Klingons have extra organs which humans don't. But that doesn't make them a different species necessarily. In fact, Trek could decide that humans, under the right conditions activate epigenetic triggers that cause them to also grow backup organs, and that means it is already there in our DNA, just inactive. McCoy did give a woman a pill to grow a new kidney, afterall, which could have just activated a latent part of her DNA.
Arne Darvin was exposed as a Klingon even though he appeared human when McCoy finally took a Tricorder to him. And even TRIBBLES can tell the difference between a human and a Klingon.
A starship can tell the difference between human, Klingon, and even Cardassian and Bajoran lifesigns. Hell... it can even tell BORG lifesigns, despite the fact that your argument basically rules them out as a species because THEY DON'T REPRODUCE.
I'm sorry but I don't see the ability to reproduce being a deciding factor, or even the only factor because we're all human apparently even if we're from Qo'noS, Andoria, Vulcan, or Romulus.
Yes humans are quite diverse on Earth, but we all have the same traits that identify us as Human, even with some genetic drift that makes distinct ethnic groups. Our DNA identifies us as Human. Same is true of Vulcan DNA identifiying them as Vulcan, and so on. Again... Genetic Compatibility does NOT equal SAME SPECIES. The Preservers seeded life, hence that whole TNG episode revealing how many species are related because one ancient species was lonely. How that life developed into the various species of the galaxy differs from planet to planet through evolution, but they all had the same foundation block, which in turn imparts a compatibility despite the fact that they all developed differently. As a STRETCH, it would be far more acceptable to say that most humanoid species are children of the Preservers. Not that "they're all human because Miral Paris."
I LIKE! That is awesome. It maintains the classic "Starship Class" while also identifying the specific class OF starship. It kinda ties in the look of the original dedication plaque with future iterations.
Also I noticed, although hard to see...
Chief of Staff: R. Roddenberry
And I think a CNIC (Probably wrong, can't make it out) Gene Roddenberry
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yes, actually genetic compatibility does equal same species, by definition. The problem here is that all these superficial and internal differences between klingons and humans still result in no difference on a species level, because despite all the differences, they are still so genetically close that they can reproduce and their offspring can reproduce. If they are different species, what species is Torres?
Klingons and humans would be different subspecies, having obvious differences that a tricorder can pick up, just like it can tell the difference between a man and woman despite the different DNA of the two genders, different organs and physical appearances and so on, or just like DNA can tell races apart.
Borg aren't a species, of course. That's a weird statement to make because Borg are comprised of assimilated life forms, all from different species (or subspecies) not their own unique organism.
And sure we can say Star Trek calls them all different species and shrug, but the fact is they are just using the word in a particularly archaic form that doesn't actually mean anything because it offers very poor and inconsistent classifications of organisms. You don't have to like calling klingons and humans the same species, but the problem is it is consistent by using a reproductive definition, which itself is inherently and necessarily based on DNA similarities.
Now to recall why I even brought all this up was the idea of cannibalism. Consider that if a klingon and human have a child, the parents could eat the other one and it would not be considered cannibalism if we call them two different species. Does that honestly make sense? What about the child? Can the child eat both parents and its not cannibalism? Eating your own blood relatives or the other parent of your child is surely cannibalism, and the taboo against it is for essentially that reason. Chopping up family for food is clearly something any society or species should abhor.
...
*facedesk*
Maybe you should start a thread dedicated to this philosophical debate. Or I should learn how to split posts off into a new thread...
Meanwhile, still digging that dedication plaque. And I wonder if we might see a young Dr. McCoy, fresh out of the academy and working on his multispecies internship, spending a short time learning from Dr. Boyce aboard Pike's Enterprise?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And it wasn't meant to be either because they had wavy patterns. Also they didn't go all the way across the back to be effective as there were angles they shot the transporter from where that wasn't behind everyone.
Except your complaints of my knowledge were wildly wrong, and should have been aimed at other posters.
If you don't want spinoff discussions then don't engage in them. Its only natural, though, to go from one topic tangential to another in a discussion. I saw an interesting comment and pointed out a problem with it. Some Star Trek nerd nitpicking a detail, that's never happened before!
I do like the new set. Did we post a picture of it already?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
When does the next Star Trek show (whatever it is) start. I am getting star-trek hungry.
Jareth, Leonin Titan ... approves. XD
It would be about nine years too early for M'Ress on the Enterprise, supposedly she did not join the crew until 2269. Her backstory is vague enough though that she might have spent a short time on it as an ensign but left before 2265 if you ignore the line in TAS about significantly mixed crews being a new thing because of improved medical and life support tech.
https://trekmovie.com/2021/07/24/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-s1-wraps-production-anson-mount-hopes-tos-fans-will-be-pleased/
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Well... technically speaking TAS is in a bit of a gray zone on canon status. Feels like some parts are while others aren't. Thanks to Discovery, I think we can say that M'Ress saying that mixed crews are new can be thrown out as we see a much more diverse Starfleet. Its a common issue with prequels showing more than what was in the original, or showing things that are different from what we were told of in the originals of that time period.
I think in that case a quote from a certain Master of another franchise is accurate.
While it might be too early for M'Ress... its not too early to say there was a Caitian at some point. Or they could pull the same thing they did with Tuvok and say that M'Ress had joined earlier, than took a leave of absense before rejoining.
For sure. He's almost like "Captain America" set in the Star Trek universe. Like Cornwell told him, he and the Enterprise were "the best of Starfleet":
"You sat out the war because if we'd lost to the Klingons, we wanted the best of Starfleet to survive. And as this conversation makes clear, that was you… and all you represent."
He's a very inspirational character and I'm really looking forward to the show.
Also, I think I might have posted about this before but this was a pretty good story about Pike and the Enterprise crew before S2 of Discovery:
https://www.audible.com/pd/Star-Trek-Discovery-The-Enterprise-War-Audiobook/1508283192
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Ah... but Jason Issacs has said he is interested in returning as Lorca, which means we may have to have some Mirror shenanigans as we never actually saw Prime Lorca dead. Its just assumed that he's dead. If Prime Lorca is as resourceful as his Mirror counterpart, I can see him surviving over there long enough to figure out how to get back, and maybe end up aboard the Enterprise.
Issacs would be good at playing a part like that, with Federation ideals at his core but with a tough outer shell of pragmatism and multi-layered guile built up from his time in the MU. He may even be prone to the light problems of the mirror universe Terrans after having been there so long (along with possible covert medical treatments there to blend in better).