Exactly. Contrary to what Garak, Quark or Eddington might philosophize, the Federation is not like the Borg, that turns everyone into a Feddie drone. The planets that join retain their unique cultural aspects, even rituals that might be strange or dumb or dangerous to humans.
It's become popular for a while now though. Around DS9 parts of the fandom (including producers) reinforced the believe that the presumed utopia of Roddenberry was nonsense and "unrealistic" and everything needs to be grey or black. Which they don't realize was already the case, as Turkana IV was a thing during TNGs first "Reddenberry'd" season even. Now that isolationist and nationalist policy became en vogue again it also became more popular to actually vilify the Federation in parts of the fandom methinks.
I guess it might have something to do with real world disillusionment. We thought the US or the Wester World was so enlightened and benign, but as we get older and as time moves on, we learn its not all that great. So why should the fictional awesome galactic nation be better? It might be a bit different from the Cold War era, where we might have believed we were the good guys, but we had no faith humanity overall would make it. Star Trek had that faith.
And this is not just a fan issue, it is something the writers will be affected by, too. And even if they themselves might still believe in that Utopian Federation, they have to wonder if it would feel attractive to the audience. I hope the writers find always ways to reaffirm Star Trek's Utopian ideals, finding ways to reaffirm our faith that there can be a better future and we don't have to compromise ourselves all the time. But not every writer might be able or willing to do so.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Federation assimilates cultures into their own with its benefits and set of rules. So in order for a world that eats their dead as a form of respect to join the Federation, then they have to betray their culture. So the future Federation might not be evil, but there are good reasons to fear the Federation.
Then there is the possibility that the future Federation has become evil for some reason.
This is completely untrue.
We have seen as far back as TOS that the Federation allows its member cultures to keep practicing even ritualistic duels to the death(such as the Vulcan's Kal-if-fee ritual), after joining. Same with the Andorians and their Ushaan death-fight ritual.
If a member culture ate their dead as a form of respect, the Federation would allow it so long as it was organized and done so legally by the laws of the culture it stemmed from.
Hell, if the Klingons were to join the Federation they could still keep doing all of their pain stick rituals and, and their challenges to the death as well. The only thing they would have to stop is randomly walking up to someone and stabbing them because they insulted their honor or w/e. The challenge would have to be made officially, and overseen in a standard manner.
The Federation doesn't care.
There is a huge difference between ritualistic duels and cannibalism or sapient carnivore races preying on sapient herbivore races. The Federation has its own set of morals that it has to uphold or else it is not the Federation.
There is a huge difference between ritualistic duels and cannibalism or sapient carnivore races preying on sapient herbivore races. The Federation has its own set of morals that it has to uphold or else it is not the Federation.
I really don't see the Federation having an issue with cannibalism so long as the species in question doesn't cannibalize outside of people who are willing.
You mean as long as they are dead and willing. Alive and willing would be too much for Federation sensibilities. It is likely that the Federation would have problems with a race similar to the Moclans and their forced gender reassignment surgery in The Orville.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
You mean as long as they are dead and willing. Alive and willing would be too much for Federation sensibilities. It is likely that the Federation would have problems with a race similar to the Moclans and their forced gender reassignment surgery in The Orville.
That would probably fall under the Prime Directive, thus Starfleet and the Federation cannot do anything anyways. And I believe that a similar thing was actually handled in TNG with a species that viewed gender identity in their citizens as a disease.
You mean as long as they are dead and willing. Alive and willing would be too much for Federation sensibilities. It is likely that the Federation would have problems with a race similar to the Moclans and their forced gender reassignment surgery in The Orville.
That would probably fall under the Prime Directive, thus Starfleet and the Federation cannot do anything anyways. And I believe that a similar thing was actually handled in TNG with a species that viewed gender identity in their citizens as a disease.
Interestingly the TNG ep ended with the idea that allowing the people to leave the planet and their society behind was acceptable, IIRC. The Federation would not force change, but would allow it.
You mean as long as they are dead and willing. Alive and willing would be too much for Federation sensibilities. It is likely that the Federation would have problems with a race similar to the Moclans and their forced gender reassignment surgery in The Orville.
That would probably fall under the Prime Directive, thus Starfleet and the Federation cannot do anything anyways. And I believe that a similar thing was actually handled in TNG with a species that viewed gender identity in their citizens as a disease.
This is not about the Prime Directive, but about members of the Federation.
According to the Accession episode from Deep Space Nine:
SISKO: You realise that caste-based discrimination goes against the Federation charter. If Bajor returns to the D'jarra system, I have no doubt that its petition to join the Federation will be rejected.
According to Memory Alpha, "a lengthy, thorough investigation of the prospective member's culture followed, including copying records from the applicant's central computer. (TNG: "The Hunted") This investigation could take several years, and was done to ascertain whether or not the culture genuinely shared the values of the Federation: values of benevolence, peaceful co-existence and co-operation, the rule of law, and equal rights and justice. (DS9: "Rapture"; TNG: "The Measure Of A Man", "Attached") For example, the discovery on the petitioning planet, Angosia III, of enhanced soldiers being unjustly and indefinitely imprisoned without treatment in times of peace was considered unacceptable in Captain Jean-Luc Picard's official evaluation of the planet for the Federation. (TNG: "The Hunted")"
So if a world has some practice that goes against the Federation charter, then they won't be able to join the Federation until they change their ways. So if the Federation charter is against cannibalism, then there is no way that a cannibalistic society would be able to join the Federation. The Federation would tolerate the cannibalistic society due to the Prime Directive, but they would never let them join until they change their dietary needs.
I have to say that although I liked the second season, I preferred season 1 (Which I watched twice at least). I actually liked burnham in season 1 as she was actually flawed. By the end of season 2 I actually want her to disappear because she spends season 2 becoming more and more irritating.
Also there is more than a hint of Wesley about her in season 2 and not the good bits...
Exactly. Contrary to what Garak, Quark or Eddington might philosophize, the Federation is not like the Borg, that turns everyone into a Feddie drone. The planets that join retain their unique cultural aspects, even rituals that might be strange or dumb or dangerous to humans.
It's become popular for a while now though. Around DS9 parts of the fandom (including producers) reinforced the believe that the presumed utopia of Roddenberry was nonsense and "unrealistic" and everything needs to be grey or black. Which they don't realize was already the case, as Turkana IV was a thing during TNGs first "Reddenberry'd" season even. Now that isolationist and nationalist policy became en vogue again it also became more popular to actually vilify the Federation in parts of the fandom methinks.
Another reason I never cared for DS9.
Those who think a Utopia is nonsense or unrealistic can't envision it, because they had the ideas like ruthless, dog eat dog competition, artificial scarcity, and so on beaten over their heads with, and can't see outside their paradigm.
Overall though DS9 is a great show. The character development is probably the most advanced in the whole franchise.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Overall though DS9 is a great show. The character development is probably the most advanced in the whole franchise.
And realistic. The characters act like actual people and not like cyphers for the writers.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Another reason I never cared for DS9.
Those who think a Utopia is nonsense or unrealistic can't envision it, because they had the ideas like ruthless, dog eat dog competition, artificial scarcity, and so on beaten over their heads with, and can't see outside their paradigm.
Like Yoda said, "Unlearn what you have learned".
Scarcity is a real life issue and will never go away no matter how much wishful thinking is made.
Replicators and easy access to lots of cheap and clean energy would certain help in reducing scarcity.
Another reason I never cared for DS9.
Those who think a Utopia is nonsense or unrealistic can't envision it, because they had the ideas like ruthless, dog eat dog competition, artificial scarcity, and so on beaten over their heads with, and can't see outside their paradigm.
Like Yoda said, "Unlearn what you have learned".
Scarcity is a real life issue and will never go away no matter how much wishful thinking is made.
Replicators and easy access to lots of cheap and clean energy would certain help in reducing scarcity.
being able to give people food? sure. The equivalent of a 1 bedroom apartment? Sure, why not? Beyond that though? Feeding people is easy compared to building starships. Starships though? Trek talks about a lot of things as being rare and valuable. either people can't replicate them, or replicating them is too expensive to be worth it.
Replicators and easy access to lots of cheap and clean energy would certain help in reducing scarcity.
Replicators aren't real.
Same with Star Trek and yet we constantly debate about things that aren't real. However, replicators are far more likely to be an actual technology compared to Warp Drives and Transporters. We can currently 3D print food and in 20 years we might be able to create any type of food just using Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen.
You're never going to 3D print enough food for everyone.
When you can make seemingly infinite food, from seemingly infinite energy, from anywhere and at any time, suddenly you can. We can't 3d Print enough food for everyone. But we don't have seemingly infinite resources yet. Their ability to convert energy into matter enables them to. The federation is set hundreds of years in the future with technology and resources we currently can't quite achieve and the applications of those technology to solve things such as, world hunger makes sense. Because in Star Trek, the federation isn't being driven by greed, or a need for profit that might stop or slow down them solving issues that exist in our society, because they are simply a more advanced and superior society. Now there is the problem of getting replicators to people, but considering I think its Picard who mentions that world hunger no longer exists, they are able to easily supply their own planets with enough food, and even star ships can supply large amounts of food where it might be hard to come by.
world hunger stopped being an issue long before even protein resequencers became a thing, never mind replicators...which makes no sense, given the time period all these problems after first contact were supposed to have vanished still placed it well within the post-atomic horror
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
When you can make seemingly infinite food, from seemingly infinite energy, from anywhere and at any time, suddenly you can. We can't 3d Print enough food for everyone. But we don't have seemingly infinite resources yet. Their ability to convert energy into matter enables them to. The federation is set hundreds of years in the future with technology and resources we currently can't quite achieve and the applications of those technology to solve things such as, world hunger makes sense. Because in Star Trek, the federation isn't being driven by greed, or a need for profit that might stop or slow down them solving issues that exist in our society, because they are simply a more advanced and superior society. Now there is the problem of getting replicators to people, but considering I think its Picard who mentions that world hunger no longer exists, they are able to easily supply their own planets with enough food, and even star ships can supply large amounts of food where it might be hard to come by.
Yes, I'm familiar with the fictional technology and world history within the Trek universe. I'm talking about the real world here, not a fantasy one.
Sorry, I thought you were using that as evidence against a utopia.
Well even in star trek there is no "free" or "unlimited" energy. It's just that replicating food is a small expenditure compared to other stuff the Feds do.
You're never going to 3D print enough food for everyone.
When you can make seemingly infinite food, from seemingly infinite energy, from anywhere and at any time, suddenly you can. We can't 3d Print enough food for everyone. But we don't have seemingly infinite resources yet. Their ability to convert energy into matter enables them to. The federation is set hundreds of years in the future with technology and resources we currently can't quite achieve and the applications of those technology to solve things such as, world hunger makes sense. Because in Star Trek, the federation isn't being driven by greed, or a need for profit that might stop or slow down them solving issues that exist in our society, because they are simply a more advanced and superior society. Now there is the problem of getting replicators to people, but considering I think its Picard who mentions that world hunger no longer exists, they are able to easily supply their own planets with enough food, and even star ships can supply large amounts of food where it might be hard to come by.
It took a while for the Federation to solve world hunger since they didn't have replicators, food synthesizers, or protein sequencers on Tarsus IV when Governor Kodos killed half of his colony so the other half could survive due to their food supply being destroyed by a fungus. Unfortunately, supply ships arrived earlier than expected so the sacrifice of half of the colony was completely meaningless.
The existence of transporters implies the existence of replicators; just keep patterns of the items you want in the transporter buffer, beam in some plain old matter, and the transporter reorganizes it at the subatomic level into the desired substance.
Given sufficient energy to supply a network of small replicative transporters, or "replicators", "scarcity" becomes a meaningless term - anything you might desire is literally at your fingertips. (I would assume certain built-in restrictions, as you don't want random civilians able to reconstruct nuclear weapons, or even military-grade phasers, at will.) Said energy is clearly available - if it weren't, there wouldn't be transporters either. Therefore, the concept that the Trekverse, at least starting from some point in the late 23rd or early 24th century, is a post-scarcity society is hardly "unbelievable". (I choose that date because prior to that, the Enterprise apparently used food synthesizers rather than replicators. "If the crew has to eat reconstituted meatloaf, I want it to at least look like turkey!")
There will, of course, be regions of space where either energy or materials to construct and operate replicators may be lacking; in those regions, we're still dealing with a scarcity mindset. (Recall Sisko's speech in DS9 about "saints in paradise".)
You're never going to 3D print enough food for everyone.
When you can make seemingly infinite food, from seemingly infinite energy, from anywhere and at any time, suddenly you can. We can't 3d Print enough food for everyone. But we don't have seemingly infinite resources yet. Their ability to convert energy into matter enables them to. The federation is set hundreds of years in the future with technology and resources we currently can't quite achieve and the applications of those technology to solve things such as, world hunger makes sense. Because in Star Trek, the federation isn't being driven by greed, or a need for profit that might stop or slow down them solving issues that exist in our society, because they are simply a more advanced and superior society. Now there is the problem of getting replicators to people, but considering I think its Picard who mentions that world hunger no longer exists, they are able to easily supply their own planets with enough food, and even star ships can supply large amounts of food where it might be hard to come by.
It took a while for the Federation to solve world hunger since they didn't have replicators, food synthesizers, or protein sequencers on Tarsus IV when Governor Kodos killed half of his colony so the other half could survive due to their food supply being destroyed by a fungus. Unfortunately, supply ships arrived earlier than expected so the sacrifice of half of the colony was completely meaningless.
They still have agricultural worlds and natural products are considered a luxury. It is quite possible that an agro colony would not bother with a lot of food synthesizers when they can supply themselves with luxury cuisine at relatively low cost, especially in TOS times when the dialog mentions fabricators and general purpose replicators are apparently not at all common. In fact, Scotty mentioned that he replaced the food packs in the Bird of Prey because the Klingon stuff gave him a sour stomach (of course it may be that Klingon ships don't use food replicators anyway).
As for the economy in TOS, it was fairly well established that the only measure of wealth that meant anything was dilithium crystals. It was also what the Romulan commander was talking about when she told Spock they were a poor but proud people (which is also why at least some (and probably most) Romulan ships use the singularity cores, they settled in an area of space where the dilithium that is essential to matter/antimatter reactors is extremely scarce).
They still have agricultural worlds and natural products are considered a luxury. It is quite possible that an agro colony would not bother with a lot of food synthesizers when they can supply themselves with luxury cuisine at relatively low cost, especially in TOS times when the dialog mentions fabricators and general purpose replicators are apparently not at all common. In fact, Scotty mentioned that he replaced the food packs in the Bird of Prey because the Klingon stuff gave him a sour stomach (of course it may be that Klingon ships don't use food replicators anyway).
Well, Klingons have been established as having a cultural aversion to replicated food. So the food stores were probably the Klingon equivalent of jerky or MREs are something. I'm not sure that the Klingons even had a replicator in that bucket of bolts. They see it as a convenience, not a necessity.
Anyways, replicated food canonically doesn't taste like natural food. Apparently it takes incredible skill to make it even close to the real thing. Just scanning something isn't good enough. You have to create a set of assembly instructions.
Comments
And this is not just a fan issue, it is something the writers will be affected by, too. And even if they themselves might still believe in that Utopian Federation, they have to wonder if it would feel attractive to the audience. I hope the writers find always ways to reaffirm Star Trek's Utopian ideals, finding ways to reaffirm our faith that there can be a better future and we don't have to compromise ourselves all the time. But not every writer might be able or willing to do so.
There is a huge difference between ritualistic duels and cannibalism or sapient carnivore races preying on sapient herbivore races. The Federation has its own set of morals that it has to uphold or else it is not the Federation.
You mean as long as they are dead and willing. Alive and willing would be too much for Federation sensibilities. It is likely that the Federation would have problems with a race similar to the Moclans and their forced gender reassignment surgery in The Orville.
That would probably fall under the Prime Directive, thus Starfleet and the Federation cannot do anything anyways. And I believe that a similar thing was actually handled in TNG with a species that viewed gender identity in their citizens as a disease.
My character Tsin'xing
This is not about the Prime Directive, but about members of the Federation.
According to the Accession episode from Deep Space Nine:
SISKO: You realise that caste-based discrimination goes against the Federation charter. If Bajor returns to the D'jarra system, I have no doubt that its petition to join the Federation will be rejected.
According to Memory Alpha, "a lengthy, thorough investigation of the prospective member's culture followed, including copying records from the applicant's central computer. (TNG: "The Hunted") This investigation could take several years, and was done to ascertain whether or not the culture genuinely shared the values of the Federation: values of benevolence, peaceful co-existence and co-operation, the rule of law, and equal rights and justice. (DS9: "Rapture"; TNG: "The Measure Of A Man", "Attached") For example, the discovery on the petitioning planet, Angosia III, of enhanced soldiers being unjustly and indefinitely imprisoned without treatment in times of peace was considered unacceptable in Captain Jean-Luc Picard's official evaluation of the planet for the Federation. (TNG: "The Hunted")"
So if a world has some practice that goes against the Federation charter, then they won't be able to join the Federation until they change their ways. So if the Federation charter is against cannibalism, then there is no way that a cannibalistic society would be able to join the Federation. The Federation would tolerate the cannibalistic society due to the Prime Directive, but they would never let them join until they change their dietary needs.
Also there is more than a hint of Wesley about her in season 2 and not the good bits...
Another reason I never cared for DS9.
Those who think a Utopia is nonsense or unrealistic can't envision it, because they had the ideas like ruthless, dog eat dog competition, artificial scarcity, and so on beaten over their heads with, and can't see outside their paradigm.
Like Yoda said, "Unlearn what you have learned".
Overall though DS9 is a great show. The character development is probably the most advanced in the whole franchise.
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And realistic. The characters act like actual people and not like cyphers for the writers.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
Probably because it was heavily influenced by Babylon 5. Babylon 5 is a better show than any Star Trek series and made DS9 a better Star Trek show.
Replicators and easy access to lots of cheap and clean energy would certain help in reducing scarcity.
My character Tsin'xing
Same with Star Trek and yet we constantly debate about things that aren't real. However, replicators are far more likely to be an actual technology compared to Warp Drives and Transporters. We can currently 3D print food and in 20 years we might be able to create any type of food just using Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen.
When you can make seemingly infinite food, from seemingly infinite energy, from anywhere and at any time, suddenly you can. We can't 3d Print enough food for everyone. But we don't have seemingly infinite resources yet. Their ability to convert energy into matter enables them to. The federation is set hundreds of years in the future with technology and resources we currently can't quite achieve and the applications of those technology to solve things such as, world hunger makes sense. Because in Star Trek, the federation isn't being driven by greed, or a need for profit that might stop or slow down them solving issues that exist in our society, because they are simply a more advanced and superior society. Now there is the problem of getting replicators to people, but considering I think its Picard who mentions that world hunger no longer exists, they are able to easily supply their own planets with enough food, and even star ships can supply large amounts of food where it might be hard to come by.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Sorry, I thought you were using that as evidence against a utopia.
My character Tsin'xing
It took a while for the Federation to solve world hunger since they didn't have replicators, food synthesizers, or protein sequencers on Tarsus IV when Governor Kodos killed half of his colony so the other half could survive due to their food supply being destroyed by a fungus. Unfortunately, supply ships arrived earlier than expected so the sacrifice of half of the colony was completely meaningless.
Given sufficient energy to supply a network of small replicative transporters, or "replicators", "scarcity" becomes a meaningless term - anything you might desire is literally at your fingertips. (I would assume certain built-in restrictions, as you don't want random civilians able to reconstruct nuclear weapons, or even military-grade phasers, at will.) Said energy is clearly available - if it weren't, there wouldn't be transporters either. Therefore, the concept that the Trekverse, at least starting from some point in the late 23rd or early 24th century, is a post-scarcity society is hardly "unbelievable". (I choose that date because prior to that, the Enterprise apparently used food synthesizers rather than replicators. "If the crew has to eat reconstituted meatloaf, I want it to at least look like turkey!")
There will, of course, be regions of space where either energy or materials to construct and operate replicators may be lacking; in those regions, we're still dealing with a scarcity mindset. (Recall Sisko's speech in DS9 about "saints in paradise".)
http://trekzone.org/1701/2019062349500
They still have agricultural worlds and natural products are considered a luxury. It is quite possible that an agro colony would not bother with a lot of food synthesizers when they can supply themselves with luxury cuisine at relatively low cost, especially in TOS times when the dialog mentions fabricators and general purpose replicators are apparently not at all common. In fact, Scotty mentioned that he replaced the food packs in the Bird of Prey because the Klingon stuff gave him a sour stomach (of course it may be that Klingon ships don't use food replicators anyway).
As for the economy in TOS, it was fairly well established that the only measure of wealth that meant anything was dilithium crystals. It was also what the Romulan commander was talking about when she told Spock they were a poor but proud people (which is also why at least some (and probably most) Romulan ships use the singularity cores, they settled in an area of space where the dilithium that is essential to matter/antimatter reactors is extremely scarce).
Anyways, replicated food canonically doesn't taste like natural food. Apparently it takes incredible skill to make it even close to the real thing. Just scanning something isn't good enough. You have to create a set of assembly instructions.
My character Tsin'xing