Then there is the problem that there is no reference to any of the events of Discovery in any other Star Trek series.
Who cares? Discovery is 106-120 years before TNG, DS9, and VOY, and over 100 years AFTER ENT. How often do we talk abut events from 1899-1913 in the modern day? Rarely.
Those other events only get bought up in the series when they are relevant to the current matter, not as just casual conversation. Why would the events of Discovery be any different?
Not to mention its extremely poor writing to constrict yourself to only the limited handful of events that were made up when the series first began.
And it is less than 10 years before TOS. If there was a Klingon War less than 10 years before TOS, then they would be still talking about it in TOS. We are still talking about World War II and its villains that happened 75 years ago.
and yet there is no hatred towards the Klingons from the Klingon War that happened about 10 years ago.
Except that massive Federation vs Klingon Empire cold war that is going on during TOS that 4 of the 5 episodes with Klingon are in are about, and influences how they act in the other episode.
Except there is only the fear that the cold war will explode into a war at some point not the hatred that is caused from killing a person's family. There should be far more people similar to Ensign Stiles in Balance of Terror that are still hurting from the Klingon War and yet the only real instance of hatred towards Klingons is Kirk due to some Klingons killing his son. So either the Klingon War never happened in TOS, Q snapped his fingers to make everyone forget, or someone traveled to the past to stop the Klingon War from ever happening.
Of course, there is also the new Business Model (BM for short) in entertainment:
Defecate profusely upon the built-in fan base then cast said built-in fan base as villains when they speak out against said defecation.
Of course, there is also the new Business Model (BM for short) in entertainment:
Defecate profusely upon the built-in fan base then cast said built-in fan base as villains when they speak out against said defecation.
that's pretty much not a new thing. What's changed is that it's been mixed with an insular culture where the paid critics are seen as more important than the paying audience. (Which is only a moderately new thing) and the showrunners, producers and some of the cast get wrapped up in the side effect of icons like TOS, without realizing the how and why of those side effects. (TOS did good stories FIRST, the social activism was accomplished by doing good shows, not the other way around.)
But it has become far more common in recent years. There is a reason why "Get Woke Go Broke" became such a popular meme last year. With companies trying to appease a certain group of people, they alienate their customers or fans. The certain group of people will not buy the company's product or not enough of them will buy the product to counteract the amount of business lost due to betrayed customers that take their business elsewhere.
I wonder with the Star Trek: Section 31 show coming up, if they could tap Peter Weller to play Adr. Marcus again.
I mean he had years to be an evil TRIBBLE before Kelvin, and was likely already knowledgeable if not in S31 by the DIS timeframe.
Admiral Marcus is from a different reality so there is no reason why he would be part of Section 31, Admiral, or even alive. He could have died on some mission before the Klingon War or during the Klingon War. Just look at the Tapestry episode in TNG. Because Picard got into a fight, he became Captain, but when he stopped the fight, he became a lowly crew member. So it is likely that the choices that Admiral Marcus made in his life never happened in the Prime Universe. After all, the Federation was at relative peace for at least the past 20 years until the Klingon War while Admiral Marcus' reality was preparing for an enemy from the 24th Century.
I wonder with the Star Trek: Section 31 show coming up, if they could tap Peter Weller to play Adr. Marcus again.
I mean he had years to be an evil TRIBBLE before Kelvin, and was likely already knowledgeable if not in S31 by the DIS timeframe.
Though we'll very likely never see any KT exclusive characters, Marcus and Robau are the two I'd like to see most in DSC.
The Klingon War is in 2256 and ID is in 2259, so Marcus (who is Commander Starfleet in ID) is unlikely to be anything less than an Admiral 3 years earlier and he spent ID itching for a fight with Klingons, seeing his Prime counterpart in an actual war with them would be great. Also, seeing as the Dreadnought Class is basically a hybrid of the Cardenas and Crossfield classes it'd be interesting to see if Marcus had anything to do with those. Marcus is also the guy who told Pike to join Starfleet.
Robau was very much like Georgiou for me. They both made a big impact in their very short scenes before dying horribly. He'd have made it back to Earth in the Prime Timeline (in order for Kirk to be born in Iowa) around the same time Georgiou was picking up Saru.
Rights issues and the unstable future of the KT films in general will ensure that never happens and they already lost something by not having the same actors for Sarek, Pike, Amanda, and Spock (nothing against Mount here his Pike is quite like Greenwood's and Hunter's but the others pale in comparison to their similarly aged KT actors) they've already lost something.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Time travel certainly makes everything more complicated. So if the Red Angel is a human that is trying to change the timeline to save all life on the universe and it saved Burnham as a child by informing Spock of his location, then Burnham was killed or severely injured in the Red Angel's timeline. So the question is if the Red Angel's timeline the timeline that we have been used to for the past 50 years and who the Red Angel is.
If Burnham was killed in the TOS timeline, then almost everything in Discovery could have not happened. There would have been no attempted mutiny on the Shenzhou or T'Kuvma being killed by Burnham. Which could have resulted in there being no Klingon War. Without the Klingon War, there would have been no incentive for Starfleet to create the Spore Drive or give lots of power to Section 31. Empress Georgiou would not have become part of Section 31 without Burnham bringing the Empress back to Burnham's universe. So almost all of the differences between TOS and Discovery could be explained by the Red Angel going back in time and saving Burnham as a child.
Now as far as who is the Red Angel, the latest episode certainly destroyed the Iconian theory. I had a weird thought that it might be Picard. Picard found the Red Angel suit in some advanced ancient alien ruins. It could be T'Kon Empire technology for all we know. It would be a way to tie Discovery and the new Picard series together. If it is some other human, then it is either some human that found an ancient alien artifact or someone that is from a few hundred years in the future.
Then there is the aliens that modified Discovery's probe and inserted some type of code in Airiam. If the aliens that modified Discovery's probe caused the destruction of life in the galaxy, then the Red Angel could be partially responsible for it due to leaving a temporal rift that caused Airiam to get infected. Of course, this is dependent on whether the Red Bursts are caused by the Red Angel and not enemies and if the program that infected Airiam was created by the aliens that the Red Angel is trying to stop.
There would have been no attempted mutiny on the Shenzhou or T'Kuvma being killed by Burnham. Which could have resulted in there being no Klingon War.
This is incorrect. T'Kuvma lured Starfleet with the intent of starting a war. Regardless of what Burnham did, the war would have happened. Her actions had zero impact on the war starting or not.
is episode 1, season 1 still even a topic? *snip*
It is a topic because in one possible timeline, Burnham would have been killed when she ran away from home, probably after a logic extremist attack, in an effort to protect her family. Unfortunately, Vulcan is not a safe planet for children. Or, really, anyone, given by what predators live in its forests.
But this did not happen, due to time travel shenanigans.
But it makes some people wonder how that alternate timeline would have worked out. So it's completely irrelevant what anyone in Starfleet knew. It's really about what we, as viewers, know about the universe.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That argument makes...zero sense to the story. regardless of what the Klingons would have done or not, Burnham is still responsible for Burnham's actions. (or rather, her writers are responsible, but that's out of character information.)
I'm not sure how it would have affected the timeline.
Sarek seems to be the only being with any knowledge of the Klingons prior to the Battle of the Binary Stars. Starfleet Command, Starfleet Intelligence, even Section 31 seems to know absolutely nothing about the Klingons, which leads to the conflict. So, since no one would be in a position to ask Sarek about the Klingons, it makes sense that events would play out exactly the same. The only difference is that Burnham would not be around to suggest taking T'Kuvma hostage might end the conflict (which, turns out to be a pointless suggestion, since she murders T'Kuvma anyway).
is episode 1, season 1 still even a topic? Okay, Som, I'll bite, how in hell would anyone on starfleet's side know this??
Once again Pat you completely and utterly fail to read the post you are responding to, or the post that post is responding to, just so you can make another unnecessarily long rant about something else entirely unrelated to what either post was talking about.
Starkos mentioned that without Burnham the war would have never started. I pointed out that it would have because that was T'Kuvma's goal from the beginning. None of us made any mention, nor was there any attempt to debate, what the Federation's in-universe view of how the war started was.
I stated that the war might have not happened not that it wouldn't have happened. We don't know how events would have played out if Burnham wasn't around to attempt her mutiny or kill T'Kuvma. All we do know is that Burnham had a major effect on the outcome of the battle since she killed T'Kuvma. So Burnham's actions during the Battle of the Binary Stars changed the timeline even if the Klingon War happened in the original timeline.
We don't know how T'Kuvma would have reacted during the Klingon War if he was still alive. Part of the reason for T'Kuvma's War on the Federation was as a means to unify the Klingon Houses. So if he survived, then he might have unified the Klingon Houses and become Emperor instead of L'Rell.
Comments
And it is less than 10 years before TOS. If there was a Klingon War less than 10 years before TOS, then they would be still talking about it in TOS. We are still talking about World War II and its villains that happened 75 years ago.
Except there is only the fear that the cold war will explode into a war at some point not the hatred that is caused from killing a person's family. There should be far more people similar to Ensign Stiles in Balance of Terror that are still hurting from the Klingon War and yet the only real instance of hatred towards Klingons is Kirk due to some Klingons killing his son. So either the Klingon War never happened in TOS, Q snapped his fingers to make everyone forget, or someone traveled to the past to stop the Klingon War from ever happening.
Defecate profusely upon the built-in fan base then cast said built-in fan base as villains when they speak out against said defecation.
But it has become far more common in recent years. There is a reason why "Get Woke Go Broke" became such a popular meme last year. With companies trying to appease a certain group of people, they alienate their customers or fans. The certain group of people will not buy the company's product or not enough of them will buy the product to counteract the amount of business lost due to betrayed customers that take their business elsewhere.
sounds like you've jumped completely off the deep end with speculation based on speculation.
My character Tsin'xing
I am not certain to whom you refer, or if you refer to the last several posts as a whole.
My character Tsin'xing
Though, I disagree that something demonstrable can be reasonably be called speculation.
My character Tsin'xing
Admiral Marcus is from a different reality so there is no reason why he would be part of Section 31, Admiral, or even alive. He could have died on some mission before the Klingon War or during the Klingon War. Just look at the Tapestry episode in TNG. Because Picard got into a fight, he became Captain, but when he stopped the fight, he became a lowly crew member. So it is likely that the choices that Admiral Marcus made in his life never happened in the Prime Universe. After all, the Federation was at relative peace for at least the past 20 years until the Klingon War while Admiral Marcus' reality was preparing for an enemy from the 24th Century.
Though we'll very likely never see any KT exclusive characters, Marcus and Robau are the two I'd like to see most in DSC.
The Klingon War is in 2256 and ID is in 2259, so Marcus (who is Commander Starfleet in ID) is unlikely to be anything less than an Admiral 3 years earlier and he spent ID itching for a fight with Klingons, seeing his Prime counterpart in an actual war with them would be great. Also, seeing as the Dreadnought Class is basically a hybrid of the Cardenas and Crossfield classes it'd be interesting to see if Marcus had anything to do with those. Marcus is also the guy who told Pike to join Starfleet.
Robau was very much like Georgiou for me. They both made a big impact in their very short scenes before dying horribly. He'd have made it back to Earth in the Prime Timeline (in order for Kirk to be born in Iowa) around the same time Georgiou was picking up Saru.
Rights issues and the unstable future of the KT films in general will ensure that never happens and they already lost something by not having the same actors for Sarek, Pike, Amanda, and Spock (nothing against Mount here his Pike is quite like Greenwood's and Hunter's but the others pale in comparison to their similarly aged KT actors) they've already lost something.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
If Burnham was killed in the TOS timeline, then almost everything in Discovery could have not happened. There would have been no attempted mutiny on the Shenzhou or T'Kuvma being killed by Burnham. Which could have resulted in there being no Klingon War. Without the Klingon War, there would have been no incentive for Starfleet to create the Spore Drive or give lots of power to Section 31. Empress Georgiou would not have become part of Section 31 without Burnham bringing the Empress back to Burnham's universe. So almost all of the differences between TOS and Discovery could be explained by the Red Angel going back in time and saving Burnham as a child.
Now as far as who is the Red Angel, the latest episode certainly destroyed the Iconian theory. I had a weird thought that it might be Picard. Picard found the Red Angel suit in some advanced ancient alien ruins. It could be T'Kon Empire technology for all we know. It would be a way to tie Discovery and the new Picard series together. If it is some other human, then it is either some human that found an ancient alien artifact or someone that is from a few hundred years in the future.
Then there is the aliens that modified Discovery's probe and inserted some type of code in Airiam. If the aliens that modified Discovery's probe caused the destruction of life in the galaxy, then the Red Angel could be partially responsible for it due to leaving a temporal rift that caused Airiam to get infected. Of course, this is dependent on whether the Red Bursts are caused by the Red Angel and not enemies and if the program that infected Airiam was created by the aliens that the Red Angel is trying to stop.
But this did not happen, due to time travel shenanigans.
But it makes some people wonder how that alternate timeline would have worked out. So it's completely irrelevant what anyone in Starfleet knew. It's really about what we, as viewers, know about the universe.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Sarek seems to be the only being with any knowledge of the Klingons prior to the Battle of the Binary Stars. Starfleet Command, Starfleet Intelligence, even Section 31 seems to know absolutely nothing about the Klingons, which leads to the conflict. So, since no one would be in a position to ask Sarek about the Klingons, it makes sense that events would play out exactly the same. The only difference is that Burnham would not be around to suggest taking T'Kuvma hostage might end the conflict (which, turns out to be a pointless suggestion, since she murders T'Kuvma anyway).
I stated that the war might have not happened not that it wouldn't have happened. We don't know how events would have played out if Burnham wasn't around to attempt her mutiny or kill T'Kuvma. All we do know is that Burnham had a major effect on the outcome of the battle since she killed T'Kuvma. So Burnham's actions during the Battle of the Binary Stars changed the timeline even if the Klingon War happened in the original timeline.
We don't know how T'Kuvma would have reacted during the Klingon War if he was still alive. Part of the reason for T'Kuvma's War on the Federation was as a means to unify the Klingon Houses. So if he survived, then he might have unified the Klingon Houses and become Emperor instead of L'Rell.