Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I despise the idea of new universes being constantly created.
From a 7th dimensional point of view, it's a violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy.
Exactly. So unless the conservation of energy is completely meaningless in higher dimensions and energy is constantly being created out of nothing that requires the creation of new universes to keep things balanced or some other weird nonsensical theory, then the infinite number of parallel universes created during the Big Bang is all we get.
I think you are confusing “canon” with “Prime Universe”. STO can be in the Prime Universe and not be canon.
There are different forms of canon, but every TV series and movie before Star Trek 2009 is the only canon for the Prime Universe. STO IS NOT IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE. STO canon is canon to the STO Universe, novel canon is canon to a particular novel universe, and Kelvin canon is canon to the Kelvin Universe.
However, with the amount of time travel in Star Trek, canon in the Prime Universe can get extremely confusing. Since the Prime Timeline in TOS is not the same as the Prime Timeline in Nemesis, Enterprise, or Discovery due to TOS didn't have the Xindi attack that killed millions of humans.
It is split based on ownership. CBS owns the Prime Universe which is everything they produce. Paramount owns the Kelvin Universe.
Again being in the universe and being canon are two different things. STO is set in the Prime Universe but isn’t canon. The Kelvin Star Trek comics are set in the Kelvin Universe but aren’t canon.
> @kabutotokugawa said: > starkaos wrote: » > > There are different forms of canon, but every TV series and movie before Star Trek 2009 is the only canon for the Prime Universe. STO IS NOT IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE. STO canon is canon to the STO Universe, novel canon is canon to a particular novel universe, and Kelvin canon is canon to the Kelvin Universe. > > However, with the amount of time travel in Star Trek, canon in the Prime Universe can get extremely confusing. Since the Prime Timeline in TOS is not the same as the Prime Timeline in Nemesis, Enterprise, or Discovery due to TOS didn't have the Xindi attack that killed millions of humans. > > > > > Wouldn't it be easier to simply split Star Trek up based on copyright ownership. Prior to 2005 Viacom/Paramount held the copyright. After the company split the copyright for Star Trek split up between CBS and Paramount, so wouldn't there then be three official sets of material. The pre-2005 Star Trek (So from ST:TOS to STE), and then the Paramount properties ST:2009/ST:KT, and now CBS TRIBBLE properties. All of those constitute different copyright holders at different times so wouldn't that also mean three sets of official material; perhaps even three different Star Trek universes?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
CBS's stance on Canon (it's a term they use) is that Canon is anything from the Films and TV series, except very rare cases (they struck the episode 'Threshold' for example). It's basically the same rules Gene Roddenberry set down. That is the official stance. Books, comics, etc, even if licensed, are non-canon, or 'soft' canon until contradicted onscreen.
You'll have to forgive me for not caring about "canon", it's too convoluted and oftentimes is actually more just fan-opinion shared by the majority of fans than actual official material. I stick to what is officially licensed material. I understand TRIBBLE is officially licensed and is apart of the official material, but so are the novels, RPG, video games, and anything else produced for Star Trek over the last 50-years.
The current canon policy is well... "We made it thus it's canon". Well that's an extrapolation based on the database on their website.
Setting Discovery in its own universe won’t cut down on any TRIBBLE-storm. The Kelvin Timeline is its own universe and we saw the same level of TRIBBLE-storms
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
that's partially because some nitwits thought - and STILL think - the KT stuff actually takes place in and overwrote all prior trek, thereby making it a reboot - it didn't
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @ryan218 said: > CBS's stance on Canon (it's a term they use) is that Canon is anything from the Films and TV series, except very rare cases (they struck the episode 'Threshold' for example). It's basically the same rules Gene Roddenberry set down. That is the official stance. Books, comics, etc, even if licensed, are non-canon, or 'soft' canon until contradicted onscreen.
Threshold has not been removed from canon. That's a myth. Otherwise this is correct.
It's not complicated at all.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Yeah before they put the Kelvin stuff in the game when someone asked for it in the game is was met with the same level of hatred
> @kabutotokugawa said: > khan5000 wrote: » > > Setting Discovery in its own universe won’t cut down on any ****-storm. The Kelvin Timeline is its own universe and we saw the same level of ****-storms > > > > > Seriously? After all this time. > Weird. > I like the ST:KT a lot. It is a great reboot and I've never hated on it. It has the aesthetic that looks like a modernized ST:TOS in my opinion and I'm an older guy (over 40).
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
that's partially because some nitwits thought - and STILL think - the KT stuff actually takes place in and overwrote all prior trek, thereby making it a reboot - it didn't
Except that the only instance of where changing the past in Star Trek creating a new timeline and the original timeline still exists is the comments made by the creators of Star Trek 2009. All other instances of changing the past in Star Trek had the original timeline overwritten until the heroes changed it back. The writers in Star Trek 2009 did a lousy job in explaining how every other instance of changing the past overwrites the timeline, but this one instance is completely different from all the others.
So all the 'nitwits' that believe the KT stuff actually takes place in and overwrote all prior Trek is based purely on the time travel rules established by Star Trek over the years and the only evidence that all prior Trek is perfectly fine is by the comments of the creators of Star Trek 2009.
So either the heroes in previous Star Trek series didn't need to travel back in time since their timeline wasn't erased, the original timeline is erased no matter what anyone says, old Spock and Nero traveled to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century, or old Spock in Star Trek 2009 is from a parallel universe not the Spock from TOS. If the heroes didn't need to travel back in time, then one timeline is perfectly fine, but the heroes vanished from it, another timeline is completely screwed since the villain won or due to some accident, and the last timeline is created by the heroes where they go to a new timeline that looks like their original timeline.
yes, they're nitwits because nothing got overwritten, and the only reason i use something that mild is because the forums disallow stronger language; but sufficed to say, i believe more highly of the dog TRIBBLE i scrape off my shoe than anyone who actually believes that garbage
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
yes, they're nitwits because nothing got overwritten, and the only reason i use something that mild is because the forums disallow stronger language; but sufficed to say, i believe more highly of the dog **** i scrape off my shoe than anyone who actually believes that garbage
And besides the comments made by the creators of Star Trek 2009, where is the proof that nothing got overwritten? The 'nitwits' have evidence that in previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, changing the past overwrites the present. The City at the Edge of Forever and First Contact being the most notable examples of it.
Personally, only what is in the TV series or movies is evidence since if we accept what is said by creators in interviews, then the catgirl twins in Into Darkness are Caitians and not some unnamed alien species we have never encountered before. So the only reasonable response is until there is a TV series or movie that verifies that a bunch of major events happened to how we remember them or the technical details of Spock's and Nero's trip, then we don't know if all prior Trek is safe.
I despise the idea of new universes being constantly created.
From a 7th dimensional point of view, it's a violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy.
Exactly. So unless the conservation of energy is completely meaningless in higher dimensions and energy is constantly being created out of nothing that requires the creation of new universes to keep things balanced or some other weird nonsensical theory, then the infinite number of parallel universes created during the Big Bang is all we get.
It's infinite. In an infinite multiverse, time travel can be explained away as always having happened between those two time periods in those two (sets of) universes. You don't have to create anything on the fly, because it had already been created in anticipation of the time travel event.
(Arguably, the concept of the multiverse also guarantees that time travel will happen somewhere, and the only question is whether anyone from our universe will figure out how to do it.)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
(Arguably, the concept of the multiverse also guarantees that time travel will happen somewhere, and the only question is whether anyone from our universe will figure out how to do it.)
The concept of the multiverse does not neccessarily imply that everything happens somewhere. Only things that are allowed with the laws of physics. If that does not include time travel, then no time travel anywhere.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
(Arguably, the concept of the multiverse also guarantees that time travel will happen somewhere, and the only question is whether anyone from our universe will figure out how to do it.)
The concept of the multiverse does not neccessarily imply that everything happens somewhere. Only things that are allowed with the laws of physics. If that does not include time travel, then no time travel anywhere.
Hence my use of the word "arguably". There's two arguments that could be used here, either of which is sufficient for time travel, and neither of which we are currently capable of testing:
Time travel is possible with our physical laws, we just haven't figured it out yet
The laws of physics are not a multiversal constant, and there are universes with different physical laws and/or constants
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I think the big concern with the whole multiverse continuity angle is that every production team is going to want their own custom tailored incarnation of the brand. That this will cause the overall continuity to become completely meaningless as you could skip entire shows and not miss anything of significance to the overall experience.
We are already seeing the signs of this with how many people go around scoffing at pre-2009 Star Trek as being "old broken Trek".
You have to remember Star Trek is one of those rare examples where the fanbase has kept the franchise going even during long periods when the owners had given up on it. That kind of community support is hard to come by and has to be earned. Unfortunately the modern entertainment industry seems to only be in it for the short term gain with no regard for the long term health of their IPs.
CBS's stance on Canon (it's a term they use) is that Canon is anything from the Films and TV series, except very rare cases (they struck the episode 'Threshold' for example). It's basically the same rules Gene Roddenberry set down. That is the official stance. Books, comics, etc, even if licensed, are non-canon, or 'soft' canon until contradicted onscreen.
Setting Discovery in its own universe won’t cut down on any ****-storm. The Kelvin Timeline is its own universe and we saw the same level of ****-storms
I did say that before. Hell, we saw it about ENT and that is the same universe. WE (fans in general not me obviously) saw it with TNG. It's the nature of sections of fandoms to despise the new due to iration reasons...
that's partially because some nitwits thought - and STILL think - the KT stuff actually takes place in and overwrote all prior trek, thereby making it a reboot - it didn't
yes, they're nitwits because nothing got overwritten, and the only reason i use something that mild is because the forums disallow stronger language; but sufficed to say, i believe more highly of the dog **** i scrape off my shoe than anyone who actually believes that garbage
And all they needed to do was watch the film. Spock lays it all out.
@starkaos
Star Trek does not have consistent rules on time travel. I know you have you personal little nuggets of physics that you quite like but ST does not. Sometimes time travel merely places you in that timeframe (TVH or Triles and Tribblations) other times it changes the course of your future diverging from the original (09), sometimes it overwrites the future (that TAS episode with the Guardian of Forever and Yesterday's Enterprise).
And besides the comments made by the creators of Star Trek 2009, where is the proof that nothing got overwritten? The 'nitwits' have evidence that in previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, changing the past overwrites the present. The City at the Edge of Forever and First Contact being the most notable examples of it.
Well obviously you shouldn't listen to them because firstly what they say is not canon and secondly they don't agree. Pegg reckons it rewrote the past, Abrams thinks it's a reboot that wiped away all other Trek so only his toys could be sold until CBS told him to bugger off then he thinks it became a mirror universe type situation, Kurtzman and the one beginning with O think it's a branching timeline which is the official version as that's why the series was named The Kelvin Timeline.
Personally, only what is in the TV series or movies is evidence since if we accept what is said by creators in interviews, then the catgirl twins in Into Darkness are Caitians and not some unnamed alien species we have never encountered before. So the only reasonable response is until there is a TV series or movie that verifies that a bunch of major events happened to how we remember them or the technical details of Spock's and Nero's trip, then we don't know if all prior Trek is safe.
Spock himself says,
Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
"'An alternate reality?"'
"'Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."'
There's only two ways to interpret that, firstly that this did a Yesterday's Enterprise and overwrote the future or that it created an alternate timeline. As DSC is set in the Prime Timeline after 2233 we know it can't be the former so it must be the latter.
Unlike you Spock is an expert in temporal mechanics, so much so that he is capable in calculating the precise variables for time travel without a computer, and I think we can be reasonably certain he knows what he's on about within the fictional physics of Star Trek's universe.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,601Community Moderator
We have further evidence that Discovery is Prime Timeline as well.
In the Prime Timeline it was established that Captain Pike was in command of the Enterprise for many years before Kirk. In the Kelvin Timeline, we see a fresh out of spacedock Enterprise commanded by Pike before confronting Nero around 2258 or so, then Kirk takes command and Pike is promoted to Admiral.
In Discovery, we see a vastly different Enterprise than we see in the Kelvin Timeline 1-2 years BEFORE the Kelvin Enterprise was even launched, under the command of Christopher Pike. There is absolutely no mention of Nero or an attack on the USS Kelvin in 2233, the Enterprise is much closer to the TOS design, although visually modernized, and we have a shot of ESD under construction. ESD appears to be the same class of starbase as we see starting in the TMP era. Phasers in space are blue, USS Discovery appeared to be equipped with the same kind of "tadpole" torpedoes as we see in TOS...
CBS cannot touch the Kelvin Timeline as that is owned by Paramount. Until such time as CBS and Paramount merge, Star Trek will have two owners who produce seperate content on different platforms.
And STO takes place in the Prime Timeline, but is not considered Canon. Only one game I can think of is considered Canon, and that is the Kelvin Timeline Star Trek, which takes place between 09 and Into Darkness, and is somewhat referenced in Into Darkness when McCoy talks to Marcus while on the planet and mentions dealing with a Gorn. The game had the Gorn as the primary antagonist, and said event is referenced, although not witnessed, by the player during an away mission.
As for "the search for Spock"... I interpret it less like "Spock has gone missing because he was abducted" and more "need to help him figure out what's going on" sort of thing. Pike clearly said Spock took a leave of absence, not that he was taken. It was Burnham who figures Spock needs help. Anything further is mere speculation. Best thing to do is just wait and see when Season 2 starts.
I despise the idea of new universes being constantly created.
From a 7th dimensional point of view, it's a violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy.
Exactly. So unless the conservation of energy is completely meaningless in higher dimensions and energy is constantly being created out of nothing that requires the creation of new universes to keep things balanced or some other weird nonsensical theory, then the infinite number of parallel universes created during the Big Bang is all we get.
It's infinite. In an infinite multiverse, time travel can be explained away as always having happened between those two time periods in those two (sets of) universes. You don't have to create anything on the fly, because it had already been created in anticipation of the time travel event.
(Arguably, the concept of the multiverse also guarantees that time travel will happen somewhere, and the only question is whether anyone from our universe will figure out how to do it.)
But, this means that the universe ISN'T splitting because of decisions. Instead there are so many universes with slightly different histories that you'll probably never find one where a specific thing happened.
Only one game I can think of is considered Canon, and that is the Kelvin Timeline Star Trek, which takes place between 09 and Into Darkness, and is somewhat referenced in Into Darkness when McCoy talks to Marcus while on the planet and mentions dealing with a Gorn. The game had the Gorn as the primary antagonist, and said event is referenced, although not witnessed, by the player during an away mission.
That game's not canon either. The makers claimed it was but Paramount don't have the ability to do that. There's a section on MA (cited for once) where Abrams gets told off by CBS for trying to determine canon (not relating to the game but a separate issue), possibly the Countdown comic.
Referencing the concept in the films or TV series doesn't make the source of the reference canon else Red Dwarf would be canon to Star Trek.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
Knock it off. — StarSword-C
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Knock it off. — StarSword-C
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Exactly. So unless the conservation of energy is completely meaningless in higher dimensions and energy is constantly being created out of nothing that requires the creation of new universes to keep things balanced or some other weird nonsensical theory, then the infinite number of parallel universes created during the Big Bang is all we get.
There are different forms of canon, but every TV series and movie before Star Trek 2009 is the only canon for the Prime Universe. STO IS NOT IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE. STO canon is canon to the STO Universe, novel canon is canon to a particular novel universe, and Kelvin canon is canon to the Kelvin Universe.
However, with the amount of time travel in Star Trek, canon in the Prime Universe can get extremely confusing. Since the Prime Timeline in TOS is not the same as the Prime Timeline in Nemesis, Enterprise, or Discovery due to TOS didn't have the Xindi attack that killed millions of humans.
Again being in the universe and being canon are two different things. STO is set in the Prime Universe but isn’t canon. The Kelvin Star Trek comics are set in the Kelvin Universe but aren’t canon.
> @kabutotokugawa said:
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> There are different forms of canon, but every TV series and movie before Star Trek 2009 is the only canon for the Prime Universe. STO IS NOT IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE. STO canon is canon to the STO Universe, novel canon is canon to a particular novel universe, and Kelvin canon is canon to the Kelvin Universe.
>
> However, with the amount of time travel in Star Trek, canon in the Prime Universe can get extremely confusing. Since the Prime Timeline in TOS is not the same as the Prime Timeline in Nemesis, Enterprise, or Discovery due to TOS didn't have the Xindi attack that killed millions of humans.
>
>
>
>
> Wouldn't it be easier to simply split Star Trek up based on copyright ownership. Prior to 2005 Viacom/Paramount held the copyright. After the company split the copyright for Star Trek split up between CBS and Paramount, so wouldn't there then be three official sets of material. The pre-2005 Star Trek (So from ST:TOS to STE), and then the Paramount properties ST:2009/ST:KT, and now CBS TRIBBLE properties. All of those constitute different copyright holders at different times so wouldn't that also mean three sets of official material; perhaps even three different Star Trek universes?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
@starswordc I think this is getting out of hand now.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
My character Tsin'xing
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> CBS's stance on Canon (it's a term they use) is that Canon is anything from the Films and TV series, except very rare cases (they struck the episode 'Threshold' for example). It's basically the same rules Gene Roddenberry set down. That is the official stance. Books, comics, etc, even if licensed, are non-canon, or 'soft' canon until contradicted onscreen.
Threshold has not been removed from canon. That's a myth. Otherwise this is correct.
It's not complicated at all.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
> @kabutotokugawa said:
> khan5000 wrote: »
>
> Setting Discovery in its own universe won’t cut down on any ****-storm. The Kelvin Timeline is its own universe and we saw the same level of ****-storms
>
>
>
>
> Seriously? After all this time.
> Weird.
> I like the ST:KT a lot. It is a great reboot and I've never hated on it. It has the aesthetic that looks like a modernized ST:TOS in my opinion and I'm an older guy (over 40).
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Except that the only instance of where changing the past in Star Trek creating a new timeline and the original timeline still exists is the comments made by the creators of Star Trek 2009. All other instances of changing the past in Star Trek had the original timeline overwritten until the heroes changed it back. The writers in Star Trek 2009 did a lousy job in explaining how every other instance of changing the past overwrites the timeline, but this one instance is completely different from all the others.
So all the 'nitwits' that believe the KT stuff actually takes place in and overwrote all prior Trek is based purely on the time travel rules established by Star Trek over the years and the only evidence that all prior Trek is perfectly fine is by the comments of the creators of Star Trek 2009.
So either the heroes in previous Star Trek series didn't need to travel back in time since their timeline wasn't erased, the original timeline is erased no matter what anyone says, old Spock and Nero traveled to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century, or old Spock in Star Trek 2009 is from a parallel universe not the Spock from TOS. If the heroes didn't need to travel back in time, then one timeline is perfectly fine, but the heroes vanished from it, another timeline is completely screwed since the villain won or due to some accident, and the last timeline is created by the heroes where they go to a new timeline that looks like their original timeline.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And besides the comments made by the creators of Star Trek 2009, where is the proof that nothing got overwritten? The 'nitwits' have evidence that in previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, changing the past overwrites the present. The City at the Edge of Forever and First Contact being the most notable examples of it.
Personally, only what is in the TV series or movies is evidence since if we accept what is said by creators in interviews, then the catgirl twins in Into Darkness are Caitians and not some unnamed alien species we have never encountered before. So the only reasonable response is until there is a TV series or movie that verifies that a bunch of major events happened to how we remember them or the technical details of Spock's and Nero's trip, then we don't know if all prior Trek is safe.
It's infinite. In an infinite multiverse, time travel can be explained away as always having happened between those two time periods in those two (sets of) universes. You don't have to create anything on the fly, because it had already been created in anticipation of the time travel event.
(Arguably, the concept of the multiverse also guarantees that time travel will happen somewhere, and the only question is whether anyone from our universe will figure out how to do it.)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Hence my use of the word "arguably". There's two arguments that could be used here, either of which is sufficient for time travel, and neither of which we are currently capable of testing:
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
We are already seeing the signs of this with how many people go around scoffing at pre-2009 Star Trek as being "old broken Trek".
You have to remember Star Trek is one of those rare examples where the fanbase has kept the franchise going even during long periods when the owners had given up on it. That kind of community support is hard to come by and has to be earned. Unfortunately the modern entertainment industry seems to only be in it for the short term gain with no regard for the long term health of their IPs.
Threshold is still canon.
I did say that before. Hell, we saw it about ENT and that is the same universe. WE (fans in general not me obviously) saw it with TNG. It's the nature of sections of fandoms to despise the new due to iration reasons...
...Such as those people.
And all they needed to do was watch the film. Spock lays it all out.
@starkaos
Star Trek does not have consistent rules on time travel. I know you have you personal little nuggets of physics that you quite like but ST does not. Sometimes time travel merely places you in that timeframe (TVH or Triles and Tribblations) other times it changes the course of your future diverging from the original (09), sometimes it overwrites the future (that TAS episode with the Guardian of Forever and Yesterday's Enterprise).
Well obviously you shouldn't listen to them because firstly what they say is not canon and secondly they don't agree. Pegg reckons it rewrote the past, Abrams thinks it's a reboot that wiped away all other Trek so only his toys could be sold until CBS told him to bugger off then he thinks it became a mirror universe type situation, Kurtzman and the one beginning with O think it's a branching timeline which is the official version as that's why the series was named The Kelvin Timeline.
Spock himself says,
There's only two ways to interpret that, firstly that this did a Yesterday's Enterprise and overwrote the future or that it created an alternate timeline. As DSC is set in the Prime Timeline after 2233 we know it can't be the former so it must be the latter.
Unlike you Spock is an expert in temporal mechanics, so much so that he is capable in calculating the precise variables for time travel without a computer, and I think we can be reasonably certain he knows what he's on about within the fictional physics of Star Trek's universe.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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In the Prime Timeline it was established that Captain Pike was in command of the Enterprise for many years before Kirk. In the Kelvin Timeline, we see a fresh out of spacedock Enterprise commanded by Pike before confronting Nero around 2258 or so, then Kirk takes command and Pike is promoted to Admiral.
In Discovery, we see a vastly different Enterprise than we see in the Kelvin Timeline 1-2 years BEFORE the Kelvin Enterprise was even launched, under the command of Christopher Pike. There is absolutely no mention of Nero or an attack on the USS Kelvin in 2233, the Enterprise is much closer to the TOS design, although visually modernized, and we have a shot of ESD under construction. ESD appears to be the same class of starbase as we see starting in the TMP era. Phasers in space are blue, USS Discovery appeared to be equipped with the same kind of "tadpole" torpedoes as we see in TOS...
CBS cannot touch the Kelvin Timeline as that is owned by Paramount. Until such time as CBS and Paramount merge, Star Trek will have two owners who produce seperate content on different platforms.
And STO takes place in the Prime Timeline, but is not considered Canon. Only one game I can think of is considered Canon, and that is the Kelvin Timeline Star Trek, which takes place between 09 and Into Darkness, and is somewhat referenced in Into Darkness when McCoy talks to Marcus while on the planet and mentions dealing with a Gorn. The game had the Gorn as the primary antagonist, and said event is referenced, although not witnessed, by the player during an away mission.
As for "the search for Spock"... I interpret it less like "Spock has gone missing because he was abducted" and more "need to help him figure out what's going on" sort of thing. Pike clearly said Spock took a leave of absence, not that he was taken. It was Burnham who figures Spock needs help. Anything further is mere speculation. Best thing to do is just wait and see when Season 2 starts.
My character Tsin'xing
https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/30/exclusive-doug-jones-talks-about-meeting-sarus-family-in-star-trek-discovery-season-2/
That game's not canon either. The makers claimed it was but Paramount don't have the ability to do that. There's a section on MA (cited for once) where Abrams gets told off by CBS for trying to determine canon (not relating to the game but a separate issue), possibly the Countdown comic.
Referencing the concept in the films or TV series doesn't make the source of the reference canon else Red Dwarf would be canon to Star Trek.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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