Have you ever added anything of substance to a conversation? Nothing you wrote addressed my concerns.
You even doubled down on the questions I raised. The issue is with the STORY and the STORY TELLING. Hell, I wrote "Stamets" when I was clearly talking about "Cullen" and you were in such a huge hurry to dismiss everything I wrote that you could not even pick up on that.
For the record, I had Stamets on the brain. I like that character, which is why the lack of development is so irritating. Season One could have had an entire episode fleshing out what the heck is going on with Stamets and how the Spore Drive and the Mycelial Network were affecting him. If the audience understands the rules it makes his actions less arbitrary and bizarre. However, they have to shove "mystery boxes" in everything, so all these ideas are introduced and dropped.
That is one of the major frustrations of Season One. All these ideas introduced and dropped.
Actually, I have no idea why I am responding to you. You'll just ignore my points and call me a "whiney fanboi, afraid of change" as Star Trek: Discovery burns itself to the ground. Whatever. The show has several significant issues to address, more than "it's different".
Just pointing out, its not uncommon for a show to drop ideas introduced in its first season. Take the blue gills from TNG for instance, or the destroyed Neutral Zone colonies, which doesn't get picked up until the end of Season 3. Voyager suffered from this as well, with the writers initially setting up supply issues. That idea didn't even survive Season 1!
But, you have a point. DSC has a lot of these issues. I put it down to a fragmented creative vision (the show changed writers and producers several times during production) and a case of CBS not really knowing what to do with the show, leading to a 'throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks' approach. Hopefully, the current team can overcome these issues, but given the sudden change of tact...
To be honest it's impossible to NOT have loose threads when story telling. It's only an issue if it's something important. And what one person considers a major plot point, another might see as unimportant.
For example: what is the origin of the Mycelial network? Or more precisely: is there any reason to believe anyone in-universe knows?
I mean TOS left more questions than answers in EVERY single EPISODE.
Utter nonsense that proves none of the replies were even read
That's nice. I'm sure in the day or so it took to reply you could try actually reading next time. But your snipped quote fas funny so I guess that's a acceptable substitution to putting in some effort.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
For example: what is the origin of the Mycelial network? Or more precisely: is there any reason to believe anyone in-universe knows?
I mean TOS left more questions than answers in EVERY single EPISODE.
Or more importantly, is the Mycelial network still accessible after Discovery. 24th Century technology should allow access to the Mycelial network without a creature or genetically engineered human.
No Trek show has ever gone into that kind of detail because doing so would destroy any storytelling as the moment you make hard rules is the moment you realize you probably contradicted the rules you just made up earlier, and likely will later.
Besides, what was happening to Stamets because of the spore drive was one of the most spelled out and over-explained parts of S1.
-The network goes all over the universe, time, and dimensions
-Stamets uses it a lot
-He starts seeing into other universes, times, and dimensions
We have no idea why Stamets has these personality changes. We can surmise that the shroom drive or the Mycelial Network is the cause, but we have no idea how or why it is causing these changes.
The mushroom drive can take the Discovery an infinite distance and it has infinite power. It has the potential to completely wreck any sense of tension as it can very, very easily become a catch-all Deus Ex Machina. It's one step below time travel. The only limit on the drive is that it has some kind of deleterious effect on the organic component required for "long distance" travel. Thankfully, it only "seriously" harms the organic portion when plot demands it.
The audience can see that the drive has a harmful effect on Stamets. However, it goes beyond that. It somehow changes his personality. Furthermore, Stamets is somehow connected to the Mycelial Network even when he isn't physically connected to the shroom drive. He interacts with his mirror self and Cullen in the Network. At this point, the Mycelial Network seems like a discount version of the Force. I hope I don't need to explain why that is a bad thing for Star Trek.
This "mystery box" nonsense is not going to work here. If the shroom drive was just a means of getting places for a story to happen, we can overlook it's story-breaking potential. However, it seems the Mycelial Network is a "cosmic power" all on it's own, with it's own weird rules that directly affect the crew, which directly affects the story and plot. It begins to feel like another Deus Ex Machina WITHIN the established Deus Ex Machina. The shroom drive has some limits. The Mycelial Network has NO established limits.
No Trek show has ever gone into that kind of detail because doing so would destroy any storytelling as the moment you make hard rules is the moment you realize you probably contradicted the rules you just made up earlier, and likely will later.
Besides, what was happening to Stamets because of the spore drive was one of the most spelled out and over-explained parts of S1.
-The network goes all over the universe, time, and dimensions
-Stamets uses it a lot
-He starts seeing into other universes, times, and dimensions
We have no idea why Stamets has these personality changes. We can surmise that the shroom drive or the Mycelial Network is the cause, but we have no idea how or why it is causing these changes.
The mushroom drive can take the Discovery an infinite distance and it has infinite power. It has the potential to completely wreck any sense of tension as it can very, very easily become a catch-all Deus Ex Machina. It's one step below time travel. The only limit on the drive is that it has some kind of deleterious effect on the organic component required for "long distance" travel. Thankfully, it only "seriously" harms the organic portion when plot demands it.
The audience can see that the drive has a harmful effect on Stamets. However, it goes beyond that. It somehow changes his personality. Furthermore, Stamets is somehow connected to the Mycelial Network even when he isn't physically connected to the shroom drive. He interacts with his mirror self and Cullen in the Network. At this point, the Mycelial Network seems like a discount version of the Force. I hope I don't need to explain why that is a bad thing for Star Trek.
This "mystery box" nonsense is not going to work here. If the shroom drive was just a means of getting places for a story to happen, we can overlook it's story-breaking potential. However, it seems the Mycelial Network is a "cosmic power" all on it's own, with it's own weird rules that directly affect the crew, which directly affects the story and plot. It begins to feel like another Deus Ex Machina WITHIN the established Deus Ex Machina. The shroom drive has some limits. The Mycelial Network has NO established limits.
You're overthinking it, Red, You're trying to treat ST:D like science fiction, when the writing team is made up of people who would probably be fooled by the memo on the grave environmental threat of dihydrogen monoxide.
Dihydrogen Monoxide is a grave environmental threat considering that it kills thousands of people per year and does massive damage to the environment.
You're overthinking it, Red, You're trying to treat ST:D like science fiction, when the writing team is made up of people who would probably be fooled by the memo on the grave environmental threat of dihydrogen monoxide. When they structured it, they didn't logic it out, it was just [insert technobabble] with a side order of [high end special effects], and a garnish of [well, it hasn't been contradicted in the existing canon so...]
You do realize this is the way Star Trek has always been written right?
Star Trek has never had any tension because, outside of Yar, its never been keen on actually killing or seriously injuring a major character. The only way for there to be "tension" in Star Trek is to ignore 50 years worth of history about how every single episode ends up playing out, with the crew perfectly fine and the situation solved.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @rattler2 said: > somtaawkhar wrote: » > > Star Trek has never had any tension because, outside of Yar, its never been keen on actually killing or seriously injuring a major character. The only way for there to be "tension" in Star Trek is to ignore 50 years worth of history about how every single episode ends up playing out, with the crew perfectly fine and the situation solved. > > > > > Jadzia Dax.
And Spock. Cause at the time WOK came out, noone knew if Spock was coming back.
But yes Jadzia Dax. Ultimately as sad as I was about Jadzia(she was my fav DS9 character) I still enjoyed Ezri as she was a different kind of special.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
> @somtaawkhar said: > redvenge wrote: » > > We have no idea why Stamets has these personality changes. We can surmise that the shroom drive or the Mycelial Network is the cause, but we have no idea how or why it is causing these changes. > > > > Except we do know, and he mentions himself that seeing all this stuff is messing with him. > redvenge wrote: » > > It has the potential to completely wreck any sense of tension > > > > Star Trek has never had any tension because, outside of Yar, its never been keen on actually killing or seriously injuring a major character. The only way for there to be "tension" in Star Trek is to ignore 50 years worth of history about how every single episode ends up playing out, with the crew perfectly fine and the situation solved. > redvenge wrote: » > > It somehow changes his personality > > > > >Somehow > >He can now see and experience things from all across space, time, and other universes > >somehow > really? > redvenge wrote: » > > Furthermore, Stamets is somehow connected to the Mycelial Network even when he isn't physically connected to the shroom drive. > > > > They explain this also by talking about how constant exposure to the drive is messing with the white matter in his brain. > > You keep using the word somehow like none of this was explained, when literally all of it was. You either haven't watched the show, or didn't pay attention, because all of these questions were answered.
Tasha's death wasn't even intended to cause tension! The actor who played her had to leave the show on short notice. Similarly, Jadzia's death was forced on the production staff because Terry Farrell refused to sign on for Season 7. Of all the deaths mentioned (I note that no one mentioned Data), only Kirk, Spock and Trip were intended from the start, and again, they assuredly did not intend to bring Spock back, because it was never intended to follow up on TWOK, no one expected it to perform as well as it did after TMP.
You're overthinking it, Red, You're trying to treat ST:D like science fiction, when the writing team is made up of people who would probably be fooled by the memo on the grave environmental threat of dihydrogen monoxide. When they structured it, they didn't logic it out, it was just [insert technobabble] with a side order of [high end special effects], and a garnish of [well, it hasn't been contradicted in the existing canon so...]
You do realize this is the way Star Trek has always been written right?
I know that most of the series had at least some episodes written by competent Science Fiction authors, which kind of eases the damage significantly from episodes like "Spock's Brain" or "Threshold".
Unfortunately, Discovery's writing has struggled to RISE to the level of "Spock's Brain" or "The Omega Glory".
which is something you really can't afford in a serialized format. previous versions of Star Trek didn't just play morality play, they did it in a way that stimulates thought, consideration, and curiousity. Disco's attempts were so weaksauce they did not do this, not even a little bit. Every 'suprise' is telegraphed, every moral is anvilicious, every conflict pre-determined and predictable, to the point that the surprise wasn't that Lorca was an infil from another dimension, but that he managed to get away with it for more than about five seconds.
it's the difference between adults using that format, and amatuer children doing it.
Really? TOS is your idea of good writing? When was any aspect of it thought provoking at all? I mean sure, I did sometimes find myself curious about things we'll never get answers to because the writers never fully developed the script, but aside from that....
Sure, the Scalosians were an interesting race concept and the episode was memorable.... but not because the writing was good, more in spite of it.
Except we do know, and he mentions himself that seeing all this stuff is messing with him.
We know he is experiencing changes. We, the audience, see it. Does it only happen when he is connected to the shroom drive? Can the Mycelial Network continue to mess with his brain when he is not connected? He can interface with it without the drive. How is it doing this?
Star Trek has never had any tension because, outside of Yar, its never been keen on actually killing or seriously injuring a major character. The only way for there to be "tension" in Star Trek is to ignore 50 years worth of history about how every single episode ends up playing out, with the crew perfectly fine and the situation solved.
This. Is. A. Bad. Thing.Star Trek has been criticized for using technobable to simply end a story because they have to tell it in 45 minutes and have run out of ideas in the well. Alternatively, the writers think they are too clever by half and we end up with Paris and Janeway having lizard babies.
>Somehow
>He can now see and experience things from all across space, time, and other universes
>somehow
really?
You are every bit as bad as the writers. We, as humans, cannot fathom what it is like to "see and and experience everything". We cannot even conceive of HOW to do such a thing. Omniscience does not automatically drive one crazy, depending on who is writing the story. It is actually not that implicit.
In fact, saying "Mycelial Network is all powerful, therefore Stamets is nuts" is lazy hack writing. Again, this implies that the Mycelial Network, a collection of sub-atomic fungal growths, has infinite power. It has always existed, and exsits everywhere. It's a massively complex science fiction construct.
As this is science fiction, it certainly merits a deeper exploration. Which we will probably never get, because the writers want to sprinkle science fiction dust over their drama cake.
They explain this also by talking about how constant exposure to the drive is messing with the white matter in his brain.
What does that MEAN?! Is it like midichlorians? This sounds like midichlorians. The spore drive is becoming nonsense. How can the spore drive re-write his brain?How can the Mycelial Network re-write his brain? Space magic, I guess. Everything in TRIBBLE is space magic.
Look, it's one thing that Starfleet builds a new prototype engine with infinite power and infinite range. That in itself is a doozy. However, in order to reach it's full potential, you need to use an interface that was designed on the Glenn to connect a giant tartigrade to the spore drive, because "drama". Since they do a catch-and-release on the tartigrade, Stamets injects himself with "tartigrade DNA" (which is one step below Janeway and Paris having lizard babies) so HE can interface with the drive. Because "drama", the interface or the drive or the Mycelial Network harm the organic component that allows the drive to reach full potential. We see this clearly. Additionally, it "alters Stamet's brain" and somehow this allows him to intermittently connect to the Mycelial Network WITHOUT being connected to the shroom drive or it's spores or anything else. It's a thing he can do, because... midicholorians? Is this thing powered by spores or "drama"? "Dramaspores"?
Comments
No... I think Beyond came in somewhere in the middle of the 5 year mission, and the events of the movie interrupted it as... well... boom.
You even doubled down on the questions I raised. The issue is with the STORY and the STORY TELLING. Hell, I wrote "Stamets" when I was clearly talking about "Cullen" and you were in such a huge hurry to dismiss everything I wrote that you could not even pick up on that.
For the record, I had Stamets on the brain. I like that character, which is why the lack of development is so irritating. Season One could have had an entire episode fleshing out what the heck is going on with Stamets and how the Spore Drive and the Mycelial Network were affecting him. If the audience understands the rules it makes his actions less arbitrary and bizarre. However, they have to shove "mystery boxes" in everything, so all these ideas are introduced and dropped.
That is one of the major frustrations of Season One. All these ideas introduced and dropped.
Actually, I have no idea why I am responding to you. You'll just ignore my points and call me a "whiney fanboi, afraid of change" as Star Trek: Discovery burns itself to the ground. Whatever. The show has several significant issues to address, more than "it's different".
But, you have a point. DSC has a lot of these issues. I put it down to a fragmented creative vision (the show changed writers and producers several times during production) and a case of CBS not really knowing what to do with the show, leading to a 'throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks' approach. Hopefully, the current team can overcome these issues, but given the sudden change of tact...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
For example: what is the origin of the Mycelial network? Or more precisely: is there any reason to believe anyone in-universe knows?
I mean TOS left more questions than answers in EVERY single EPISODE.
My character Tsin'xing
That's nice. I'm sure in the day or so it took to reply you could try actually reading next time. But your snipped quote fas funny so I guess that's a acceptable substitution to putting in some effort.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Or more importantly, is the Mycelial network still accessible after Discovery. 24th Century technology should allow access to the Mycelial network without a creature or genetically engineered human.
The mushroom drive can take the Discovery an infinite distance and it has infinite power. It has the potential to completely wreck any sense of tension as it can very, very easily become a catch-all Deus Ex Machina. It's one step below time travel. The only limit on the drive is that it has some kind of deleterious effect on the organic component required for "long distance" travel. Thankfully, it only "seriously" harms the organic portion when plot demands it.
The audience can see that the drive has a harmful effect on Stamets. However, it goes beyond that. It somehow changes his personality. Furthermore, Stamets is somehow connected to the Mycelial Network even when he isn't physically connected to the shroom drive. He interacts with his mirror self and Cullen in the Network. At this point, the Mycelial Network seems like a discount version of the Force. I hope I don't need to explain why that is a bad thing for Star Trek.
This "mystery box" nonsense is not going to work here. If the shroom drive was just a means of getting places for a story to happen, we can overlook it's story-breaking potential. However, it seems the Mycelial Network is a "cosmic power" all on it's own, with it's own weird rules that directly affect the crew, which directly affects the story and plot. It begins to feel like another Deus Ex Machina WITHIN the established Deus Ex Machina. The shroom drive has some limits. The Mycelial Network has NO established limits.
Dihydrogen Monoxide is a grave environmental threat considering that it kills thousands of people per year and does massive damage to the environment.
My character Tsin'xing
Jadzia Dax.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> Star Trek has never had any tension because, outside of Yar, its never been keen on actually killing or seriously injuring a major character. The only way for there to be "tension" in Star Trek is to ignore 50 years worth of history about how every single episode ends up playing out, with the crew perfectly fine and the situation solved.
>
>
>
>
> Jadzia Dax.
And Spock. Cause at the time WOK came out, noone knew if Spock was coming back.
But yes Jadzia Dax. Ultimately as sad as I was about Jadzia(she was my fav DS9 character) I still enjoyed Ezri as she was a different kind of special.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
> redvenge wrote: »
>
> We have no idea why Stamets has these personality changes. We can surmise that the shroom drive or the Mycelial Network is the cause, but we have no idea how or why it is causing these changes.
>
>
>
> Except we do know, and he mentions himself that seeing all this stuff is messing with him.
> redvenge wrote: »
>
> It has the potential to completely wreck any sense of tension
>
>
>
> Star Trek has never had any tension because, outside of Yar, its never been keen on actually killing or seriously injuring a major character. The only way for there to be "tension" in Star Trek is to ignore 50 years worth of history about how every single episode ends up playing out, with the crew perfectly fine and the situation solved.
> redvenge wrote: »
>
> It somehow changes his personality
>
>
>
> >Somehow
> >He can now see and experience things from all across space, time, and other universes
> >somehow
> really?
> redvenge wrote: »
>
> Furthermore, Stamets is somehow connected to the Mycelial Network even when he isn't physically connected to the shroom drive.
>
>
>
> They explain this also by talking about how constant exposure to the drive is messing with the white matter in his brain.
>
> You keep using the word somehow like none of this was explained, when literally all of it was. You either haven't watched the show, or didn't pay attention, because all of these questions were answered.
Kirk
Spock (x2)
Yar
Dax
Tucker
“no main character has ever died”
Ezri Dax is not Jadzia Dax.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Sure, the Scalosians were an interesting race concept and the episode was memorable.... but not because the writing was good, more in spite of it.
My character Tsin'xing
Either way technobable is bad. You are every bit as bad as the writers. We, as humans, cannot fathom what it is like to "see and and experience everything". We cannot even conceive of HOW to do such a thing. Omniscience does not automatically drive one crazy, depending on who is writing the story. It is actually not that implicit.
In fact, saying "Mycelial Network is all powerful, therefore Stamets is nuts" is lazy hack writing. Again, this implies that the Mycelial Network, a collection of sub-atomic fungal growths, has infinite power. It has always existed, and exsits everywhere. It's a massively complex science fiction construct.
As this is science fiction, it certainly merits a deeper exploration. Which we will probably never get, because the writers want to sprinkle science fiction dust over their drama cake.
What does that MEAN?! Is it like midichlorians? This sounds like midichlorians. The spore drive is becoming nonsense. How can the spore drive re-write his brain? How can the Mycelial Network re-write his brain? Space magic, I guess. Everything in TRIBBLE is space magic.
Look, it's one thing that Starfleet builds a new prototype engine with infinite power and infinite range. That in itself is a doozy. However, in order to reach it's full potential, you need to use an interface that was designed on the Glenn to connect a giant tartigrade to the spore drive, because "drama". Since they do a catch-and-release on the tartigrade, Stamets injects himself with "tartigrade DNA" (which is one step below Janeway and Paris having lizard babies) so HE can interface with the drive. Because "drama", the interface or the drive or the Mycelial Network harm the organic component that allows the drive to reach full potential. We see this clearly. Additionally, it "alters Stamet's brain" and somehow this allows him to intermittently connect to the Mycelial Network WITHOUT being connected to the shroom drive or it's spores or anything else. It's a thing he can do, because... midicholorians? Is this thing powered by spores or "drama"? "Dramaspores"?
My character Tsin'xing