We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
It's not onscreen so it doesn't count. I'm sorry CBS' official canon policy upsets you, it obviously means a lot to you that the Humans-with-pointed-ears-and-a-tail are Caitians.
First off: Not upset here or anything, and never gave you any reason to think that. And it doens't mean anything to me if they are caitian or not. Just stating the fact they been called caitians by people behind the show.
Second off: Canon? Yeah nothing in canon ever said they are caitians since they never were called it on the shows. But I never spoke of canon. Just saying we got out-of-show refs by people making the shows.. saying they are caitian. So that means so far.. thats all I will refer to them as until any infomation contradicts that.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Anyway, back on topic. The Kelvins size and specs was off imo. Which I agree on that this is an alternate reality. Not an alternate timeline.
Plus all the other things that are diffrent and shouldn't have been affected by Nero going back and altering things.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
If I recall correctly, if one pauses the film just before the first wave of torpedoes from the Narada strikes the Kelvin, all three of her bridge windows are clearly visible, and they are quite large compared to the rest of the saucer, thus supporting the 315m
figure.
The two red circles are the Kelvin's bridge windows.
And the rim of the saucer with part of the registry number is clearly visible through the windows in this shot.
By that same token, in the same film, there is a pull-away panning shot of the Enterprise that starts at the ship's bridge and pans across the hull, and said shot clearly shows the size of the bridge window compared to the rest of the saucer. So unless the people visible on the bridge in that shot are fifteen feet tall, the bridge of the KT Enterprise seems to support the 366m figure.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Well, yeah. It's just that navy carriers don't have to deal with enclosed environments, support systems and so on that is required to keep those people alive in space. Plus the sheer number of shuttles the Kelvin had when the original Enterprise carried something like three.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.
The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.
Now, now... There's no arguing with a fan with a protractor. Clinging to shooting errors over plainly stated creator AND owner intent is the Star Trek fan way. And why nobody wants to work on a property mired in 50 years of random accumulated detritus.
Why do you hold creator intent over creator product? Do you buy shoddy cars or other products in real life because they were meant to be better?
I've learned to ignore his posts, its clear someone who insists on referring to the Prime timeline as the "Closed for businessverse" is a troll looking for reactions.
You should be prepared to ignore all further Trek incarnations then as the "closed for business" quote comes direct from the CBS board of directors, just sayin.
They've said that the new series will air 6 months after Beyond in order to avoid confusion between the two platforms and that it will be set before TNG. That means that it's going to be a Prime Universe show not a Kelvin Universe show.
You should be prepared to ignore all further Trek incarnations then as the "closed for business" quote comes direct from the CBS board of directors, just sayin.
They've said that the new series will air 6 months after Beyond in order to avoid confusion between the two platforms and that it will be set before TNG. That means that it's going to be a Prime Universe show not a Kelvin Universe show.
They have said no such thing about the show, those were rumors that the showrunner just flatly denied 2 days ago. Only thing there that is true is the needed gap of 6 months between Beyond's release and the show starting.
Even so, I seriously doubt they're going the Kelvin Universe route. Especially with so many Prime Universe actors interested in reprising their roles. Troi, Janeway and Ryan have all expressed interest in coming back. I don't think they're going to ignore that and freeze out that kind of potential by going with the Kelvin Universe.
Add to that the sheer marketability of the Prime Universe vs the Kelvin Universe. The Prime Universe has produced toys, games, video games, figures, memorabilia and so on and the Kelvin Universe really hasn't aside from a failed attempt at one video game in 2013, a handful of children's movie prop toys and this upcoming VR video game.
You should be prepared to ignore all further Trek incarnations then as the "closed for business" quote comes direct from the CBS board of directors, just sayin.
They've said that the new series will air 6 months after Beyond in order to avoid confusion between the two platforms and that it will be set before TNG. That means that it's going to be a Prime Universe show not a Kelvin Universe show.
They have said no such thing about the show, those were rumors that the showrunner just flatly denied 2 days ago. Only thing there that is true is the needed gap of 6 months between Beyond's release and the show starting.
Even so, I seriously doubt they're going the Kelvin Universe route. Especially with so many Prime Universe actors interested in reprising their roles. Troi, Janeway and Ryan have all expressed interest in coming back. I don't think they're going to ignore that and freeze out that kind of potential by going with the Kelvin Universe.
Like I said the quote about the Prime Universe being "closed for business" came from the CBS execs themselves, no one else. They are the ones in charge so I'll take their word for it. Frankly I don't care if the show is Prime, Kelvin, or some currently unknown timeline/reality cause I'll be watching anyway. Well ok I would kind of prefer a completely new reality for the show as I have mentioned before, but thats just a slight preference.
I don't, either, honestly. I'm just saying that it personally makes little sense to me to set it in the Kelvin Universe based on certain things. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Hopefully it'll succeed either way. More Trek can only be good in my book.
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
If I recall correctly, British Khan told Kirk that the Vengeance was two times the size, not two times the length. When talking about an object with dynamic dimensions like a starship (especially those with whacked out designs at Trek) the phrase "Two times the size" would probably mean two times the total mass. In which case, IF the KT Enterprise is 366m, then based on total mass, the Vengeance would be slightly larger than a prime universe Ambassador-class. Which is still a mighty big ship.
However, the wrench in the works is the San Francisco crash landing sequence. In those shots, the Vengeance does appear to be something on the order of 1400-1500 meters, especially given how she one-shotted Alcatraz.
In a sense, both figures are valid. I personally prefer to go with the 366m figure for the KT Enterprise primarily because it makes the most mathematical sense and there is greater on-screen evidence to support it.
The KT Enterprise started design as close to the TOS Enterprise, but due to sets being really large and thus making them impossible to actually fit in a 366m ship it got upscaled to make them fit. Unfortunately, when they made Trek09 they didn't care about the discrepancies. They were making a 'Trek flavored' action movie not a Star Trek movie. That's why it's best to just consider them separate universes; like how the BSG was a total reboot. That worked out much better, imo.
Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
If I recall correctly, British Khan told Kirk that the Vengeance was two times the size, not two times the length. When talking about an object with dynamic dimensions like a starship (especially those with whacked out designs at Trek) the phrase "Two times the size" would probably mean two times the total mass. In which case, IF the KT Enterprise is 366m, then based on total mass, the Vengeance would be slightly larger than a prime universe Ambassador-class. Which is still a mighty big ship.
However, the wrench in the works is the San Francisco crash landing sequence. In those shots, the Vengeance does appear to be something on the order of 1400-1500 meters, especially given how she one-shotted Alcatraz.
In a sense, both figures are valid. I personally prefer to go with the 366m figure for the KT Enterprise primarily because it makes the most mathematical sense and there is greater on-screen evidence to support it.
That's true, but, going by the Starship Collection which is supposedly official the Vengeance is stated at being 1459 meters long. So, whether you believe it or not that's the closest we can get to a true size. Everything else is extrapolation and personal opinion.
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Well, yeah. It's just that navy carriers don't have to deal with enclosed environments, support systems and so on that is required to keep those people alive in space. Plus the sheer number of shuttles the Kelvin had when the original Enterprise carried something like three.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
Like the AR Constitution, the Dreadnought doesn't have a canon size, all we can tell is that it's two to three times the size of the Enterprise.
A 360 metre AR Constitution would mean a Dreadnought slightly larger than the Galaxy in volume, and slightly longer then the Sovereign in length.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Well, yeah. It's just that navy carriers don't have to deal with enclosed environments, support systems and so on that is required to keep those people alive in space. Plus the sheer number of shuttles the Kelvin had when the original Enterprise carried something like three.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
Like the AR Constitution, the Dreadnought doesn't have a canon size, all we can tell is that it's two to three times the size of the Enterprise.
A 360 metre AR Constitution would mean a Dreadnought slightly larger than the Galaxy in volume, and slightly longer then the Sovereign in length.
Except that according to the Official Starships Collection it does. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Well, yeah. It's just that navy carriers don't have to deal with enclosed environments, support systems and so on that is required to keep those people alive in space. Plus the sheer number of shuttles the Kelvin had when the original Enterprise carried something like three.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
Like the AR Constitution, the Dreadnought doesn't have a canon size, all we can tell is that it's two to three times the size of the Enterprise.
A 360 metre AR Constitution would mean a Dreadnought slightly larger than the Galaxy in volume, and slightly longer then the Sovereign in length.
Except that according to the Official Starships Collection it does. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.
Sigh. Not canon. Just because it's official it doesn't make it correct. The pictures you quoted? Canon. ~360m and ~850m. Have you read the sizes for things in the 'official' DS9 technical manual? Also wrong. Do people try pretend those figures are correct and the onscreen models are wrong? No, because people irrationally hate TAR enough to nitpick that and not TUC.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
We also have to remember that the sets and models built for the PT were less-than appropriately sized considering the supposed-size of the model. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon..but fiscal constraints in the '60s were quite a bit different from those same limitations of today.
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Well, yeah. It's just that navy carriers don't have to deal with enclosed environments, support systems and so on that is required to keep those people alive in space. Plus the sheer number of shuttles the Kelvin had when the original Enterprise carried something like three.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
Like the AR Constitution, the Dreadnought doesn't have a canon size, all we can tell is that it's two to three times the size of the Enterprise.
A 360 metre AR Constitution would mean a Dreadnought slightly larger than the Galaxy in volume, and slightly longer then the Sovereign in length.
Except that according to the Official Starships Collection it does. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.
Sigh. Not canon. Just because it's official it doesn't make it correct. The pictures you quoted? Canon. ~360m and ~850m. Have you read the sizes for things in the 'official' DS9 technical manual? Also wrong. Do people try pretend those figures are correct and the onscreen models are wrong? No, because people irrationally hate TAR enough to nitpick that and not TUC.
Like I said, that's your opinion. There's no canon information that they're 360 meters vs 850 meters. Just like there's none that says they aren't.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
edited June 2016
Going back to the discussion regarding the Kelvin's size and mentioning the length of modern aircraft carriers and their crew compliments, ship length alone means nothing. We also have to consider mass as well. You can have a 1 inch tube that is 315 meters long and still say its 315 meters long. The Kelvin's saucer clearly makes up the bulk of the ship, which could easily support a crew of 800 with the right facilities to support said crew number. To support the number of shuttles however, we may have to consider that perhaps the Kelvin's Secondary Hull was dedicated to support facilities such as the Deflector, maybe some sensors, and primarilly the Shuttlebay. Many shuttles could be stored in the shuttlebay, but others may be held in a hanger under the main shuttlebay deck and brought up via elevator like on a modern carrier.
If we consider the bottom of that bay door to coinside with the deck of the shuttlebay, this clearly shows that there is some bulk underneath the deck. Potentially shuttle storage. If the Kelvin was a survey ship, the number of shuttles could indicated that she was meant for long term planetary surveys. Get teams out across the whole planet sort of thing, using the shuttles as a kind of base camp. In 2233 Starfleet may still rely heavilly on shuttles as Transporters aren't as refined. Remember how everyone was skittish about using the Transporter on the NX-01? Its still an evolving tech.
Now this fiasco of a shuttlebay is a little harder to explain. The doors seem to be more like those of her Prime Universe counterpart. However she seems to have the massive space a lot like the Kelvin, which may indicate that most of the secondary hull is dedicated to support functions such as Engineering (probably more towards the neck to support the core eject we saw in '09) and Shuttle operations.
Using the reasoning for the Kelvin's shuttlebay is a little harder for the Enterprise as there isn't as much bulk under the shuttle deck.
This feature has also changed size, as in the scene where the Enterprise is recieveing a bunch of shuttles, they appear small and able to enter maybe 2 at a time, yet when Pike takes out one of the shuttles, the shuttle is bigger and just fits out the shuttlebay in a manner comparable to the original TOS Connie.
Going back to the discussion regarding the Kelvin's size and mentioning the length of modern aircraft carriers and their crew compliments, ship length alone means nothing. We also have to consider mass as well. You can have a 1 inch tube that is 315 meters long and still say its 315 meters long. The Kelvin's saucer clearly makes up the bulk of the ship, which could easily support a crew of 800 with the right facilities to support said crew number. To support the number of shuttles however, we may have to consider that perhaps the Kelvin's Secondary Hull was dedicated to support facilities such as the Deflector, maybe some sensors, and primarilly the Shuttlebay. Many shuttles could be stored in the shuttlebay, but others may be held in a hanger under the main shuttlebay deck and brought up via elevator like on a modern carrier.
If we consider the bottom of that bay door to coinside with the deck of the shuttlebay, this clearly shows that there is some bulk underneath the deck. Potentially shuttle storage. If the Kelvin was a survey ship, the number of shuttles could indicated that she was meant for long term planetary surveys. Get teams out across the whole planet sort of thing, using the shuttles as a kind of base camp. In 2233 Starfleet may still rely heavilly on shuttles as Transporters aren't as refined as they will be in the 2350s. Remember how everyone was skittish about using the Transporter on the NX-01? Its still an evolving tech.
Now this fiasco of a shuttlebay is a little harder to explain. The doors seem to be more like those of her Prime Universe counterpart. However she seems to have the massive space a lot like the Kelvin, which may indicate that most of the secondary hull is dedicated to support functions such as Engineering (probably more towards the neck to support the core eject we saw in '09) and Shuttle operations.
Using the reasoning for the Kelvin's shuttlebay is a little harder for the Enterprise as there isn't as much bulk under the shuttle deck.
This feature has also changed size, as in the scene where the Enterprise is recieveing a bunch of shuttles, they appear small and able to enter maybe 2 at a time, yet when Pike takes out one of the shuttles, the shuttle is bigger and just fits out the shuttlebay in a manner comparable to the original TOS Connie.
The cutaway we've seen in Popular Mechanics does support the idea of the engineering hull being focused on support.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Going back to the discussion regarding the Kelvin's size and mentioning the length of modern aircraft carriers and their crew compliments, ship length alone means nothing. We also have to consider mass as well. You can have a 1 inch tube that is 315 meters long and still say its 315 meters long. The Kelvin's saucer clearly makes up the bulk of the ship, which could easily support a crew of 800 with the right facilities to support said crew number. To support the number of shuttles however, we may have to consider that perhaps the Kelvin's Secondary Hull was dedicated to support facilities such as the Deflector, maybe some sensors, and primarilly the Shuttlebay. Many shuttles could be stored in the shuttlebay, but others may be held in a hanger under the main shuttlebay deck and brought up via elevator like on a modern carrier.
If we consider the bottom of that bay door to coinside with the deck of the shuttlebay, this clearly shows that there is some bulk underneath the deck. Potentially shuttle storage. If the Kelvin was a survey ship, the number of shuttles could indicated that she was meant for long term planetary surveys. Get teams out across the whole planet sort of thing, using the shuttles as a kind of base camp. In 2233 Starfleet may still rely heavilly on shuttles as Transporters aren't as refined. Remember how everyone was skittish about using the Transporter on the NX-01? Its still an evolving tech.
Now this fiasco of a shuttlebay is a little harder to explain. The doors seem to be more like those of her Prime Universe counterpart. However she seems to have the massive space a lot like the Kelvin, which may indicate that most of the secondary hull is dedicated to support functions such as Engineering (probably more towards the neck to support the core eject we saw in '09) and Shuttle operations.
Using the reasoning for the Kelvin's shuttlebay is a little harder for the Enterprise as there isn't as much bulk under the shuttle deck.
This feature has also changed size, as in the scene where the Enterprise is recieveing a bunch of shuttles, they appear small and able to enter maybe 2 at a time, yet when Pike takes out one of the shuttles, the shuttle is bigger and just fits out the shuttlebay in a manner comparable to the original TOS Connie.
No, no. That's working things out from the actual model. You need to ignore that and focus only on numbers relating to a hypothetical model somewhere. Don't go looking to the actual film for answers to how big things are in said film. Go to what was intended, but never made it to the film. That's how you scale things from films.
/Amature
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
who says that was the engine room to begin with? spock may have given scotty his prime counterpart's working calculations for transwarp beaming, but WORKING doesn't mean ACCURATE
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
who says that was the engine room to begin with? spock may have given scotty his prime counterpart's working calculations for transwarp beaming, but WORKING doesn't mean ACCURATE
Well it's not the main room for sure. That has the Warp Core in it. It could be a cooling system. But I'm sure that room could fit between the front of the secondary hull and up into the neck.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
A +300-metre ship has a shuttlebay with enough room for *only* one shuttle to exit or enter at any one time? Also..do we have a given size for the Kelvin?
Going by the 'Official Starships Collection' by Eaglemoss the Kelvin is 315 meters long. Which I find hard to believe considering the shuttles and the crew of 800+.
First off: Not upset here or anything, and never gave you any reason to think that. And it doens't mean anything to me if they are caitian or not. Just stating the fact they been called caitians by people behind the show.
Second off: Canon? Yeah nothing in canon ever said they are caitians since they never were called it on the shows. But I never spoke of canon. Just saying we got out-of-show refs by people making the shows.. saying they are caitian. So that means so far.. thats all I will refer to them as until any infomation contradicts that.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Well, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is 342m long and had an operational compliment of 4800, including the air wing. The USS Gerald R. Ford is 337m and has a compliment of 4660. It's not in the realm of disbelief to imagine that a slightly smaller (fictional) ship has approximately 6-times fewer crew members, 200 years in the future.
Plus all the other things that are diffrent and shouldn't have been affected by Nero going back and altering things.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
figure.
The two red circles are the Kelvin's bridge windows.
And the rim of the saucer with part of the registry number is clearly visible through the windows in this shot.
By that same token, in the same film, there is a pull-away panning shot of the Enterprise that starts at the ship's bridge and pans across the hull, and said shot clearly shows the size of the bridge window compared to the rest of the saucer. So unless the people visible on the bridge in that shot are fifteen feet tall, the bridge of the KT Enterprise seems to support the 366m figure.
Furthermore, based on this shot, I have a hard time believing I'm looking at 700+ meters of starship:
Well, yeah. It's just that navy carriers don't have to deal with enclosed environments, support systems and so on that is required to keep those people alive in space. Plus the sheer number of shuttles the Kelvin had when the original Enterprise carried something like three.
Well, yeah. The design was based on around 366 meters. It's just that it was inflated later on. So, what we get is a mess of 366 meter size shots and 725 meter shots. Going by Into Darkness, though, the Kelvin-verse Enterprise has to be 725 meters because the Vengeance is officially 1459 meters. So, with it being twice as long as the Enterprise that would have to make it around 725 meters.
As such, they can feel free to produce more of the schlock trek. I don't care.
He very nearly got a reaction I can tell you :P
They've said that the new series will air 6 months after Beyond in order to avoid confusion between the two platforms and that it will be set before TNG. That means that it's going to be a Prime Universe show not a Kelvin Universe show.
Even so, I seriously doubt they're going the Kelvin Universe route. Especially with so many Prime Universe actors interested in reprising their roles. Troi, Janeway and Ryan have all expressed interest in coming back. I don't think they're going to ignore that and freeze out that kind of potential by going with the Kelvin Universe.
Add to that the sheer marketability of the Prime Universe vs the Kelvin Universe. The Prime Universe has produced toys, games, video games, figures, memorabilia and so on and the Kelvin Universe really hasn't aside from a failed attempt at one video game in 2013, a handful of children's movie prop toys and this upcoming VR video game.
I don't, either, honestly. I'm just saying that it personally makes little sense to me to set it in the Kelvin Universe based on certain things. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Hopefully it'll succeed either way. More Trek can only be good in my book.
If I recall correctly, British Khan told Kirk that the Vengeance was two times the size, not two times the length. When talking about an object with dynamic dimensions like a starship (especially those with whacked out designs at Trek) the phrase "Two times the size" would probably mean two times the total mass. In which case, IF the KT Enterprise is 366m, then based on total mass, the Vengeance would be slightly larger than a prime universe Ambassador-class. Which is still a mighty big ship.
However, the wrench in the works is the San Francisco crash landing sequence. In those shots, the Vengeance does appear to be something on the order of 1400-1500 meters, especially given how she one-shotted Alcatraz.
In a sense, both figures are valid. I personally prefer to go with the 366m figure for the KT Enterprise primarily because it makes the most mathematical sense and there is greater on-screen evidence to support it.
That's true, but, going by the Starship Collection which is supposedly official the Vengeance is stated at being 1459 meters long. So, whether you believe it or not that's the closest we can get to a true size. Everything else is extrapolation and personal opinion.
Like the AR Constitution, the Dreadnought doesn't have a canon size, all we can tell is that it's two to three times the size of the Enterprise.
A 360 metre AR Constitution would mean a Dreadnought slightly larger than the Galaxy in volume, and slightly longer then the Sovereign in length.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Except that according to the Official Starships Collection it does.
Sigh. Not canon. Just because it's official it doesn't make it correct. The pictures you quoted? Canon. ~360m and ~850m. Have you read the sizes for things in the 'official' DS9 technical manual? Also wrong. Do people try pretend those figures are correct and the onscreen models are wrong? No, because people irrationally hate TAR enough to nitpick that and not TUC.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Like I said, that's your opinion. There's no canon information that they're 360 meters vs 850 meters. Just like there's none that says they aren't.
If we consider the bottom of that bay door to coinside with the deck of the shuttlebay, this clearly shows that there is some bulk underneath the deck. Potentially shuttle storage. If the Kelvin was a survey ship, the number of shuttles could indicated that she was meant for long term planetary surveys. Get teams out across the whole planet sort of thing, using the shuttles as a kind of base camp. In 2233 Starfleet may still rely heavilly on shuttles as Transporters aren't as refined. Remember how everyone was skittish about using the Transporter on the NX-01? Its still an evolving tech.
Now this fiasco of a shuttlebay is a little harder to explain. The doors seem to be more like those of her Prime Universe counterpart. However she seems to have the massive space a lot like the Kelvin, which may indicate that most of the secondary hull is dedicated to support functions such as Engineering (probably more towards the neck to support the core eject we saw in '09) and Shuttle operations.
Using the reasoning for the Kelvin's shuttlebay is a little harder for the Enterprise as there isn't as much bulk under the shuttle deck.
This feature has also changed size, as in the scene where the Enterprise is recieveing a bunch of shuttles, they appear small and able to enter maybe 2 at a time, yet when Pike takes out one of the shuttles, the shuttle is bigger and just fits out the shuttlebay in a manner comparable to the original TOS Connie.
The cutaway we've seen in Popular Mechanics does support the idea of the engineering hull being focused on support.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's why I prefer the engine room with the actual warp core from the 2013 Star Trek Game.
No, no. That's working things out from the actual model. You need to ignore that and focus only on numbers relating to a hypothetical model somewhere. Don't go looking to the actual film for answers to how big things are in said film. Go to what was intended, but never made it to the film. That's how you scale things from films.
/Amature
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Well it's not the main room for sure. That has the Warp Core in it. It could be a cooling system. But I'm sure that room could fit between the front of the secondary hull and up into the neck.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!