It isn't the AR Enterprise that is anomalous - its the Kelvin.

nixboox

Seeing the specs on the AR Enterprise was shocking - its bigger than the Galaxy class! But then I remembered the AR Enterprise isn't the ship that would be out of proportion, it was the Kelvin.

Everything after the instant when the Kelvin encountered Nero's black hole Borg-looking Narada mining vessel was a completely different reality than the one we've come to experience in Trek.

THAT version of Trek reality, knowing that they've just encountered a hugantic alien vessel that comes carrying black holes meant that ALL of the Federation's ship building efforts would tend toward equally large ships. Of course the Enterprise - flagship of the Federation - was going to be way bigger than the Prime Timeline variant.

It is logical.

What is illogical, then, is that the Kelvin was so damn big. We could explain that anomaly by suggesting that there is to be a temporal incursion into the AR timeline that will happen before Nero which prompts the Federation to think big about ship design in the alternate reality. Maybe a feature episode?

nikeix

I'm pretty much of the opinion that the dark masters of Trekdom at CBS have entirely washed their hands of the closed-for-business-verse and consider the Kelvin Timeline a fully separate quantum reality where the writers can paint on blank canvas. Make no assumptions and presume NOTHING for the old continuity is certain until the new canon tells you it is so.

aucka

nikeix wrote: »

I'm pretty much of the opinion that the dark masters of Trekdom at CBS have entirely washed their hands of the closed-for-business-verse and consider the Kelvin Timeline a fully separate quantum reality where the writers can paint on blank canvas. Make no assumptions and presume NOTHING for the old continuity is certain until the new canon tells you it is so.

That's not an unfair assessment. It is clear that Abrams and Orci intended for their universe to be parallel to the prime universe and branch off at the Narada incursion, but there were already disconnects from the pre-existing prime universe prior to the incursion that didn't add up -- the look and feel of the Kelvin, the uniforms worn by the Kelvin crew, Chekov's age discrepancy, etc.

In a perfectly realized universe, the Kelvin would have looked more like the Jeffries designs from The Cage, with similar uniforms, perhaps a bit modernized, but not so out of step as to have the window/viewscreen tech, etc.

Rather than be insulted and face-slapped by this, though, I'm happy to accept the Kelvin Timeline as it's own bubble universe with its own continuity and technology evolution. It's the stories and the characters that really matter, not the minutia, and we Trekkies have a way of becoming so obsessed with the fine details that we overlook (sometimes willfully) the larger strokes.

The Abrams films aren't exactly the Star Trek we grew up with, whether we grew up with TOS as the only Star Trek (as I did), or during the TNG era, or even during the ENT era. But that's ok. Every generation has presented a Star Trek that differs in respects from the previous generation. TNG is nothing like TOS. DS9 is a dark political serial that strongly contrasts TNG's inherent optimism, VOY is different from both TNG and DS9, and ENT is different from them all. Mostly they dovetail together, but we know that Star Trek was rife with disconnects in continuity long before Abrams ever took the reins.

I enjoy the Abrams films as what they are: more modern and action-driven Star Trek films with a different look and feel, set in an alternate bubble universe, that nevertheless share the same philosophical, emotional, and optimistic underpinnings of their predecessors.

flash525

nixboox wrote: »

Everything after the instant when the Kelvin encountered Nero's black hole Borg-looking Narada mining vessel was a completely different reality than the one we've come to experience in Trek.

Actually, the Kelvin itself was completely different. The Kelvin existed before the Temporal Incursion, and was already a rather large ship by comparison to a TOS Constitution. You only need to recall the interior engineering scenes, or the number of shuttles that escaped (that would otherwise have been docked within) to reach that conclusion.

The argument about the AR Constitution being large is void, because the Kelvin was already that large well before the Narada showed up. If the Kelvin was half he size of the AR Constitution, it would still be around half he size of a Galaxy Class, which would still be defined as too big.

It's ultimately a mute point; the new films are just that, new. For all intense purposes, they can do what they want and don't have to offer an explanation. I do think though that they'd have been better off removing the time travel element from the film and just rebooted Trek on a fresh canvas.

aucka

flash525 wrote: »

I do think though that they'd have been better off removing the time travel element from the film and just rebooted Trek on a fresh canvas.

Agreed. It was an interesting conceit, but they would have been better off with just a straight remake/reboot.

amosov78

flash525 wrote: »

nixboox wrote: »

Everything after the instant when the Kelvin encountered Nero's black hole Borg-looking Narada mining vessel was a completely different reality than the one we've come to experience in Trek.

Actually, the Kelvin itself was completely different. The Kelvin existed before the Temporal Incursion, and was already a rather large ship by comparison to a TOS Constitution. You only need to recall the interior engineering scenes, or the number of shuttles that escaped (that would otherwise have been docked within) to reach that conclusion.

The argument about the AR Constitution being large is void, because the Kelvin was already that large well before the Narada showed up. If the Kelvin was half he size of the AR Constitution, it would still be around half he size of a Galaxy Class, which would still be defined as too big.

It's ultimately a mute point; the new films are just that, new. For all intense purposes, they can do what they want and don't have to offer an explanation. I do think though that they'd have been better off removing the time travel element from the film and just rebooted Trek on a fresh canvas.

To be fair though, outside of the Daedalus-class we don't know very much about the Federation/Starfleet after its formation up to the launch of the Enterprise. The Kelvin was stated to be a survey ship by the production staff, so maybe Starfleet made big ships like that back then that were designed to hold lots of people. Conversely the USS Franklin in the next film is decidedly small even compared to the NX-class, so clearly not all ships way back then were being built big.

nikeix

flash525 wrote: »

I do think though that they'd have been better off removing the time travel element from the film and just rebooted Trek on a fresh canvas.

aucka wrote: »

Agreed. It was an interesting conceit, but they would have been better off with just a straight remake/reboot.

But then we wouldn't have gotten Leonard Nimoy reprising his role!! Your argument is null and void!!

aucka

nikeix wrote: »

But then we wouldn't have gotten Leonard Nimoy reprising his role!! Your argument is null and void!!

Touche. Although, while it was nice to see Leonard for two final movies, his role in Into Darkness seemed kind of gratuitous. "Hi, Spock, this is Spock. I'm wondering if Spock ever met someone named Khan."

Kind of sounds like Rickey Henderson.

artan42

Both the Kelvin and AR Constitution are scaled in canon to perfectly reasonable sizes. The Kelvin is almost exactly the same size as the Constellation and the AR Constitution has nacelles that push it to slightly longer than the original refit. The Dreadnought, however, is roundabout the size of the Galaxy (even bigger if it is more than twice the size as the AR Constitution) . The Kelvin was carrying a lot of people for a ship that small though. Presumably families or on a colony run.
Providing you only go by the evidence onscreen (i.e. official canon) there is little problem (other than a few contradictions), the problems occur when you start taking behind the scenes information that contradicts the onscreen evidence and contravening CBS' official canon policy by holding the BtS stuff above the onscreen stuff.​​

farmallm

When Spock and Nero went back in time. They also went to a different Universe Reality as well. That is not part of the "Prime" Time and Reality. The Kelvin was a different ship than what the Prime had in that time. Thus that alone made it a different Reality from the start. The Uniforms was the 2nd clue. Then the Ceti Eel they used on Pike. Where in TWOK they showed and told how the Eel works on mind control later killing the host. Even if you do go back in time and change events. No were that would change the biology of humans and animals. More like how events unfolded and changed from what it should been. That alone also shows proof on not being the "Prime Reality". Final none of the TOS series character look and act the same. So once again you have a whole different group. Cause you can't change DNA and biology just going back in time.

catoblepasbeta

The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.

The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.

artan42

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.

The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.

It's the other way around sorry. Other than the shuttlebay everything else points to the shorter length the model was built to.​​

nikeix

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.

The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.

Now, now... There's no arguing with a fan with a protractor. Clinging to shooting errors over plainly stated creator AND owner intent is the Star Trek fan way. And why nobody wants to work on a property mired in 50 years of random accumulated detritus.

artan42

nikeix wrote: »

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.

The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.

Now, now... There's no arguing with a fan with a protractor. Clinging to shooting errors over plainly stated creator AND owner intent is the Star Trek fan way. And why nobody wants to work on a property mired in 50 years of random accumulated detritus.

Why do you hold creator intent over creator product? Do you buy shoddy cars or other products in real life because they were meant to be better?​​

gradii

artan42 wrote: »

nikeix wrote: »

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.

The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.

Now, now... There's no arguing with a fan with a protractor. Clinging to shooting errors over plainly stated creator AND owner intent is the Star Trek fan way. And why nobody wants to work on a property mired in 50 years of random accumulated detritus.

Why do you hold creator intent over creator product? Do you buy shoddy cars or other products in real life because they were meant to be better?​​

I've learned to ignore his posts, its clear someone who insists on referring to the Prime timeline as the "Closed for businessverse" is a troll looking for reactions.

nikeix

artan42 wrote: »

Why do you hold creator intent over creator product? Do you buy shoddy cars or other products in real life because they were meant to be better?​​

I'm sorry. What size is it in the game again?

You can scream "CBS's Rule for canon" all you like, the people who actually make Trek stuff are being given other instructions. You tell me which has more practical impact.

nikeix

gradii wrote: »

I've learned to ignore his posts, its clear someone who insists on referring to the Prime timeline as the "Closed for businessverse" is a troll looking for reactions.

And in about 29 days we'll all know if I'm merely mocking people who think they're clever and snide with the "JJverse" or if I'm a prophet who saw the writing on the wall. Really, I'm willing to wait to find out and I'm not gonna be heartbroken either way.

...Ok, if the new series makes reference to Voyarger in any way that doesn't include spitting on it, I might be a little put out. But I enjoy the novels far too much to have the kind of hate for the prime universe that JJHaters have for the KT setting.

artan42

Since when was the game canon? It has zero effect on Canon material.

Who called the PR closedforbuisnesverse? Me? I've never even referee to it. I remeber the thread at the time but I don't even think I went in it.

Remember when the designer of the Miranda said it has the warp nacelles on top? I guess that's canon as the designer knows better than the people that filmed it or built it right? There's even a scene in DS9 where one turns over. I guess that proves they are upsidedown the rest of the time eh?

catoblepasbeta

artan42 wrote: »

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

The NuTrek Enterprise is almost certainly not 'slightly' longer than the TOS Connie. Aside from the bridge viewscreen/window shot, basically everything that one can get a reasonable approximation of scale has shown it to be far, far larger. The Engineering section, the shuttlebay, when we see it under construction on earth. It's a large ship by Trek standards, extremely large considering the time period.

The Kelvin is likewise quite large for the time period, but doesn't have the excuse of time travel interference to justify the differences. Hence the arguments that the JJVerse is best defined as either a completely parallel dimension (like the mirror universe), as a completely different setting, or as the result of the timeline being affected by time travel prior to the Kelvin incident.

It's the other way around sorry. Other than the shuttlebay everything else points to the shorter length the model was built to.​​

I have no idea where you get that from. What other scenes show it as smaller? The construction scenes where it is bigger than the TOS Ent? The engineering section so vast that a galaxy class would have difficulty accommodate it (and yet still has room for the massive shuttle bay)? When it rises from the water in into darkness, showing it to be absolutely massive? What exactly is this 'everything else'?

gradii wrote: »

I've learned to ignore his posts, its clear someone who insists on referring to the Prime timeline as the "Closed for businessverse" is a troll looking for reactions.

Just because one has an opinion different from the one you have does not make them a troll.

darakoss

If I recall the original concept for the Kelvin was smaller and very TOS looking

legendarylycan

i know a good way to solve the KT connie size argument while staying within CBS' canon guideline...figure out the approximate size of the vengeance; since it was mentioned as being 'twice the size' of the enterprise, get the value for it and just divide by 2

getting the vengeance's size should be simple enough, since we have all those buildings in san francisco to scale it against as it merrily drives its way down one of the city's streets​​

legendarylycan

if it's not onscreen, it's not canon

so unless the length of the vengeance was shown somewhere in ID (and NOT in a deleted scene or behind-the-scenes scene), then no, we don't know the size​​

rattler2

The visual clues (other than the ridiculous TARDIS shuttlebay) on the hull of the Enterprise put her at 366 meters to have everything scaled properly. While larger than even a refit Prime Connie, that is still a reasonable size.

The Kelvin comes from a time not covered on screen, so uniforms and ship designs are naturally going to be up in the air. And arguing that uniforms = different universe is a sad attempt at best. How many times did the uniforms change in the TNG era? 4 times. In the span of how many years?

2350s-2365

2366

late 2360s-early 2370s

2373


We already have at least a 20 year timeline of uniform changes in TNG ALONE! That proves that uniforms can change quickly. We have no idea how long the Kelvin style uniforms had been in service. Your Cage style uniforms were said to be in service in the 2350s in the prime universe until about 2265. The Kelvin uniforms predate that by at least 20 years.

legendarylycan

um...i don't see any difference between the 2350-65 and 2366 uniform​​

rattler2

Collar and the piping across the shoulders. While the design wasn't a big change, the style did change a bit.

evilmark444

I GOT IT! Because of Nero's damage, multiple future time travel events from the Prime Universe (such as First Contact, and if you want to include STO then the Iconian time travel stuff) never happened, which lead to the pre-Kelvin changes. Perhaps even the Temporal Cold War had a different outcome, or just never happened at all.

Essentially, changes to the future also impacted the past, by changing or eliminating expected temporal violations.

ltminns

This is like the fourteenth Thread about size.

starkaos

farmallm wrote: »

When Spock and Nero went back in time. They also went to a different Universe Reality as well. That is not part of the "Prime" Time and Reality. The Kelvin was a different ship than what the Prime had in that time. Thus that alone made it a different Reality from the start. The Uniforms was the 2nd clue. Then the Ceti Eel they used on Pike. Where in TWOK they showed and told how the Eel works on mind control later killing the host. Even if you do go back in time and change events. No were that would change the biology of humans and animals. More like how events unfolded and changed from what it should been. That alone also shows proof on not being the "Prime Reality". Final none of the TOS series character look and act the same. So once again you have a whole different group. Cause you can't change DNA and biology just going back in time.

All we know is that they traveled to a place that looked like the 23rd Century Federation. It is just as likely that they didn't travel back in time, but just traveled to a universe that looked like the 23rd Century. There is also the difference between both Kirk's birthplace and time and Caitians. Changing the past in Star Trek is usually permanent unless the hero goes back in time to save their familiar present with The City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, Children of Time, and Storm Front. Alternate Kirk was born on January 4 in one of USS Kelvin's shuttle while Kirk was born on March 22 in Iowa. Caitians in Into Darkness don't have any fur. This is why I will use Kelvin Universe and not Kelvin Timeline for the new alternative reality.

evilmark444

starkaos wrote: »

farmallm wrote: »

When Spock and Nero went back in time. They also went to a different Universe Reality as well. That is not part of the "Prime" Time and Reality. The Kelvin was a different ship than what the Prime had in that time. Thus that alone made it a different Reality from the start. The Uniforms was the 2nd clue. Then the Ceti Eel they used on Pike. Where in TWOK they showed and told how the Eel works on mind control later killing the host. Even if you do go back in time and change events. No were that would change the biology of humans and animals. More like how events unfolded and changed from what it should been. That alone also shows proof on not being the "Prime Reality". Final none of the TOS series character look and act the same. So once again you have a whole different group. Cause you can't change DNA and biology just going back in time.

All we know is that they traveled to a place that looked like the 23rd Century Federation. It is just as likely that they didn't travel back in time, but just traveled to a universe that looked like the 23rd Century. There is also the difference between both Kirk's birthplace and time and Caitians. Changing the past in Star Trek is usually permanent unless the hero goes back in time to save their familiar present with The City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, Children of Time, and Storm Front. Alternate Kirk was born on January 4 in one of USS Kelvin's shuttle while Kirk was born on March 22 in Iowa. Caitians in Into Darkness don't have any fur. This is why I will use Kelvin Universe and not Kelvin Timeline for the new alternative reality.

The Caitians could easily be explained as a hairless breed.

daveyny

Guys have been talking about "size comparisons" since... well, Cain & Abel.

Why should this be any different?
<chuckle>

starkaos

evilmark444 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

farmallm wrote: »

When Spock and Nero went back in time. They also went to a different Universe Reality as well. That is not part of the "Prime" Time and Reality. The Kelvin was a different ship than what the Prime had in that time. Thus that alone made it a different Reality from the start. The Uniforms was the 2nd clue. Then the Ceti Eel they used on Pike. Where in TWOK they showed and told how the Eel works on mind control later killing the host. Even if you do go back in time and change events. No were that would change the biology of humans and animals. More like how events unfolded and changed from what it should been. That alone also shows proof on not being the "Prime Reality". Final none of the TOS series character look and act the same. So once again you have a whole different group. Cause you can't change DNA and biology just going back in time.

All we know is that they traveled to a place that looked like the 23rd Century Federation. It is just as likely that they didn't travel back in time, but just traveled to a universe that looked like the 23rd Century. There is also the difference between both Kirk's birthplace and time and Caitians. Changing the past in Star Trek is usually permanent unless the hero goes back in time to save their familiar present with The City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, Children of Time, and Storm Front. Alternate Kirk was born on January 4 in one of USS Kelvin's shuttle while Kirk was born on March 22 in Iowa. Caitians in Into Darkness don't have any fur. This is why I will use Kelvin Universe and not Kelvin Timeline for the new alternative reality.

The Caitians could easily be explained as a hairless breed.

Then they would need to show the regular version in the Kelvin Universe to prove that there are regular breeds and hairless breeds. It would have been easier if they just created their own alien races instead of massively changing the known races.