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If the year of hell never happened. ..
makocalloway
Member Posts: 455 Arc User
Ok so STO story line follows the line of reason that because voyager destroyed Anorex's time ship, the year of hell never happened, and the time weapon ship was never was built. So why is the first Krenim research station project a collection of artifacts from races that were removed from time by the Krenim? That suggests that the year of hell DID happen and the time ship WAS already built.
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There's no story behind it... It's what you relate to the Krenim... Basically, you're reading too much into it.
(Well yes I know, but you ruined the chance for a spirited hypothetical debate on temporal mechanics
Actually... it would increase the demand for Dilithium, thus lowering the price of Zen.
Lord I hope so.
We come in peace, SHOOT TO KILL!
ADD: The dimensional speculation vies off of Dr. Manheim and his own success.
One last hypothesis, While the ending to 'Year of Hell' did show his work unfinished and him being led away from it... there is nothing to disprove the possibility that he did complete the research at some point later on or that someone else did not complete it.
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Bingo.
Think of it this way, TNG's episode "Yesterdays Enterprise" involves a catastrophic war between the FED and the KDF which had to be prevented by having the ENT-C blow itself up (albeit with Romulan disruptors) so the Klingons would be impressed enough not to be Klingons for a while. And yet in DS9 the KDF and FED go to war anyway. Is this a temporal paradox? No, (apart from the obvious point that the canon ST universe is a highly improbable accident which means nothing in the grand scheme of things with Sela wandering about it in) it just means that things happened differently but involved similar elements.
The Krenim are in a position to build timeships. They started earlier in one possible timeline (YOH), later in another (STO). But in either case its consistent with the Krenim's given society and technological capabilities. Those may have a lot to do with narrative convenience, but they're playing by the rules of fiction.
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I'm glad that I can scold them for only adhering to Temporal Prime Directive when it suits them in the new episode, but I still think that removing entire races from the timeline is abominable. Just because there are no bodies does not make it not genocide.
Go back in time and work out peace between the old Iconians and the other races, try giving T'Ket a puppy so she is not so mad. There are so many better ways than erasing an entire species, let alone the Iconic ancient civilization of Star Trek.
Last I checked cryptic doesn't own the Star Trek IP
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I hope that you are correct, but I suspect some handwavium about STO being an alternate timeline or reality.
Ok this made me laugh.
Um, have you seen what we've done so far this season?
Do you think that the grand plan of simply removing the iconians will succeed? Hey, the war never happened! Kahless, my aren't you looking not disintegrated. Everyone is happy forever. Next season.
No, it'll be another failed attempt that forces someone else (surely a ST cast member) to step in, take the initiative for the alliance, and advocate for the power of friendship over the power to bend the fabric of reality to our will. And of course that will finally work.
That's pop-lit for you. Its also a lot more ST than the moral "James Bond villians were right, super weapons solve all problems."
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So go friendship beam for Iconians. The sooner I can get back to killing guilt free elachi, and mirror universe jerks, the better.
In other words "Stop letting the Klingons take control of the missions and we'll be okay"
Well, THAT Klingon. Worf probably had enough of his "let's just shoot them!" suggestions shot down during TNG to finally understand that not just shooting them can have certain uses.
And lets be clear, this isn't a criticism of Cryptic's writing. Its better to actually show that bull-headed, stupid ideas don't work in a believable context rather than just telling us how it would be bad if we were to ever stray from the moral high ground.
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So you are saying it's a bit timey wimey wibbly wobbly ? ;D
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This. The time-spiel is what was associated with the Krynim on the show because we only saw one Kreeneem and his personal strife. For recognition value, Cryptic adapts the story and extrapolates it to the whole of Krinumhood and of course includes little name-droppings of things we saw on-screen. It's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to provide a gameplay feature and in-name references to justify the license
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Voyager destroyed the timeship.. it was removed from time so it never did all the things like destroying civilizations and everything is back to "normal time line" Annorax choose to spent time with his wife instead of fixate and focus his very being on building that ship. sooooo that's all there is to it.. in this time line the Krenim never got to build the ship maybe due to other factors.. war ? economy? disease? political choices?
Temporal mechanics. if 1 affects 2 than 2 effects 6 and 6 effects 36 and so on and so on.... Never mess with temporal mechanics XD
So you are saying it's a bit timey wimey wibbly wobbly ? ;D
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Exactly. Actually if we followed the Doctors advice of "Don't blink", we'd probably have alot less problems keeping an eye on those portal popping herolds. O_o
I don't really share the warm squishy feeling towards the iconians, I do feel you on the Elachi.ill even see just player elachi ships and get the feeling of wanting to run them down :P
I'm kinda glad that melee weapons are the best thing to use on elachi, killing them with a machete(Tsunkatse Falchion) is viscerally satisfying. Elachi were presented in a way that made them instantly hateable. They had the right ambiance of horror in the combat we had with them, and in how their environment looks. They did a great job at making them the kind of adversary that people love to kill.
The Iconians just aren't written like that, they don't feel like I should be killing them. I'm just sad that what happened in the past has turned them into what they are now. Undine already fill the slot of "Arrogant enemy that calls me weak even as I am breaking their limbs", so I don't need any more of that. As a Hero when I look at the Iconian story I don't feel like I should be killing them, I feel like what I should be doing is redeeming them.
Example.
Or, it suggests that any plotline involving anything having to do with time travel has a high probability of being utter nonsense.
Only if you don't follow the rules for that particular instance. Usually, instances of time travel in Star Trek follow rules that are explained within the episode. Those always work different than the episode before, but in this particular episode the rules stated count. STO just completely ignored the rules for the weapon ship thing for the sake of recognition value. Dr. Who for example did that as well (establishing rules and breaking them in the next episode) leading the time-travel aspect of a show ad absurdum.
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You see, the first rule in temporal mechanics is this: Time is both non-linear and linear.
Time is non-linear: Meaning, you have to view time as an observer, "outside of time", unaffected by the flow of time, not part of it. All points in time are the "present", there is no "past" nor "future", there is only the "present".
Best example: Temporal (Cold) War.
Daniel's 31st Faction, the TCW is a "present" thing.
The 29th Fed faction, the TCW is a "present" thing.
Archer's time period, the TCW is a "present" thing.
All of those points in time, the TCW is happening at the "present", not "past", not "future". They're all happening simultaneously.
The question now is this, since the TCW/TW "ended" before it even started in the first place, then doesn't it mean time was reset? Don't we have a grandfather paradox in there?
Well, no. Because time is also linear.
Time is linear: Meaning, anything that happens, "will happened" (intentional wording). Going back to the TCW/TW example, as it is the best, here's how things occurred linearly.
1. Some temporal incursions started to happen.
2. Started Temporal Cold War because of what happened in the World Wars era of Germany
3. Daniel's 31st Faction went to Archer's time period to stop another faction from another century's incursions.
4. Archer's time period got involved in the war.
5. They all went back in World Wars era Germany.
6. The Temporal Cold War turned into a Temporal War (ie All-Out War)
7. Eventually, they were able to stop the very "move" or "event" that started the Temporal (Cold) War in the first place.
8. They all happily lived ever after
Was time reset? Nope. In fact, the Temporal centuries all have records of what happened inside their time-shielded vaults. If time was indeed reset, they will never have these records. Yet they do have.
Another way of explaining it, all thanks to the great mind of Star Trek writer Christopher Bennett, (time is still linear was his explanation), these temporal incursions are "frontlines" in a war.
So for example.
There was a frontline in the World Wars era Germany.
Yet when we reached Archer's time period, the events of the Temporal (Cold) War still occurred! Did they not end it before it even started? Yes. But as time is still linear, the Temporal Frontline in Archer's time period must happen, otherwise, the whole Temporal War will unravel and we'll truly have a real grandfather paradox!
As you see, there never was a grandfather paradox because time is both non-linear and linear. What happened in a non-linear fashion will and must happen in a linear fashion. Time was never truly reset.
It's how you can explain the "Year of Hell" Voyager episodes.
Did it happen? Yes. Because it must happen, linearly and non-linearly.
Was time reset? No. Everything is still as it's supposed to be.
Does that mean it was Voyager's destiny to destroy the time battleship? No. If Voyager wasn't there, some other event will destroy that ship.
Then does it mean the timeship's destiny is to get destroyed? No. There is no such thing as destiny.
How is that possible then? You are contradicting yourself?!!
Not really. The thing is, as far as Trek temporal mechanics is concerned, timeline splits eventually merges back together. The prime timeline usually survives. The only time the prime timeline doesn't survive is when the other timeline gets more "weight" and "mass" than the prime timeline, that it's replaced forever, never to be restored.
For example. Let's say I'm a very important person that resulted in a 31st Century Earth where we've conquered the Milky Way Galaxy.
But someone from the 33rd Century traveled to my time, today, and pulled me to the 33rd Century.
Since time is non-linear, everything is present. The 33rd Century will arrive to is different from the 33rd Century that kidnapper left.
Why?
Because whatever it will be that I was supposed to discover for the benefit of humanity, was never discovered or invented because I was no longer there!
Eventually, since this new 33rd Century now has me and the original version of the kidnapper, it gains more weight and mass. Sooner or later, this new timeline will replace the prime timeline, and that prime timeline will cease to exist, no longer recoverable -- unless I'm returned to the exact point in time I was taken from, and continue my life without using any knowledge I have gained of "time travel" and the "future -- from my perspective". Otherwise, if I failed to do that, either there'll be a new timeline, or the timeline I've witnessed will remain so.
Annorax's is the same. When Voyager destroyed his timeship, that timeline where Voyager, the key to it's destruction, became the new timeline.
As such, Annorax's timeship never happened in this timeline.
But as the episodes have showed us, there is still a remnant left of that timeline where Annorax and Voyager crossed paths. But notice how Voyager was not named? Noticed how it was just some ship from out-of-nowhere? It's because that ship could have been any other ship. It just so happened it was Voyager that filled it.
Which then we go back to... it is Annorax's destiny to fail. Again, no. As I've explained earlier...
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