I don't think it is productive to set up examples that would be against the TOS to actually debate. Maybe select something fictional that actually has a chance of being discussed without getting anyone in trouble?
Alright.
In Season 1 of B5, Doctor Franklin goes against the cultural norms of a child's parents by giving the child a life-saving operation - in tune with his own moral code and that of humanity's. The result is that the parents commit a ritual murder of the child believing his soul had already left his body when Franklin operated, making the child a demon. Franklin's meddling based on his ethics end up doing the exact opposite of what he intended.
I should note that Sinclair gives Franklin a very verbal dressing down for this, with Franklin even offering his resignation. Sinclair makes it clear that if it happens again, he'd throw Franklin off the station.
In Season 1 of B5, Doctor Franklin goes against the cultural norms of a child's parents by giving the child a life-saving operation - in tune with his own moral code and that of humanity's. The result is that the parents commit a ritual murder of the child believing his soul had already left his body when Franklin operated, making the child a demon. Franklin's meddling based on his ethics end up doing the exact opposite of what he intended.
I should note that Sinclair gives Franklin a very verbal dressing down for this, with Franklin even offering his resignation. Sinclair makes it clear that if it happens again, he'd throw Franklin off the station.
That's not on Franklin. He did his job as a doctor. "First, do no harm." If anything Sinclair was in the wrong in that episode in not arresting the parents for infanticide.
I would also point out Babylon 5 later ridiculed the entire concept, first with the Lumati in "Acts of Sacrifice", then in Crusade's "Visitors from Down the Street" in my sig quote.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Cardassian occupation of Bajor. (no offense, gulberat--it isn't the fault of the Cardassian people that their leaders were evil TRIBBLE)
Prime Directive gets called, hundreds of millions of Bajorans died, and that's only the ones who were officially counted.
Clear failing of the PD.
The way I see it, there are two ways to go here. The right way (browbeat the Kobali into observing sentient rights conventions) and the anal bureaucrat way (call extreme PD and leave the Kobali to the Vaadwaur). I vote the former.
I pointed this out earlier; in order for it to be a universal law, it has to be ratified by the majority of sentient space-faring species. No one in the delta quadrant signed these conventions, so the signatories are in the minority - in other words, the Federation don't have the majority right to impose it on the Kobali. Especially given the Vaadwaur don't recognise those conventions either.
Again, I totally agree that the Kobali are doing something wrong, and fully sympathise with the Vaadwaur exacting retribution; I just refuse to accept the Federation has the right to force the Kobali into negotiating. Withhold aid, sure, but unless the Kobali actually ask them to mediate negotiations (assuming the Vaadwaur agreed to negotiate, which they might), the Federation should not impose Federation values on an independent race.
If the Kobali are going to change, it has to be their choice (even if it is at the threat of total annihilation).
Do I need to point out the Prime Directive? Starfleet Officers have no right to judge the cultures of alien species. And, personally, the kind of disgust the Kobali bring in players seems somewhat arrogant; it's not our way, but that doesn't make it the wrong way.
My 2 pence.
They can judge all they want, they just can't interfere with their culture's progress...
My thoughts in general (not aimed to ryan)
The idea of the Kobali is interesting and 'works' in isolation, but when put under the microscope, they are abhorrent in, not just their reproductive practices (possibly desecrating the remains of other species, I seem to recal that Cardassians do not like non-Cardassians touching their dead) but the way they treat their 're-born', which as mentioned above, is simply indoctrination and mental abuse. At least with the Borg, the personality is immediately suppressed, but the process can (mostly) been undone, and even a disconnected drone will revert to their native personality within hours of seperation from the Collective... With the Kobali, it is apparently brainwashing, and that's not cool (especially if the native personality can still survive the reanimation process, which would make sense, as the same neural pathways are being utilized)
I wonder how the Kobali culture, which is based upon the recycling of corpses, would react to an Immortal: A creature not only potentially beyond their ability to 're-engineer', but never (for the most part) succuming to the condition which labels a body as 'fair game'... Would they be viewed in elevation as being Beyond, or would they be viewed as some kind of 'infidel' without the potential to be re-born into 'Kobali Greatness'...
I don't think the Federation has any business telling the Kobali how to Live/Die, but equally, they should be considered unsuitable as allies and left to their own devices, rather than interracted with..,
Please go take a history class. The situation in post-WWI Germany had absolutely nothing to do with the Allies trying to impose their ideals on Germany and everything to do with them intentionally trying to punish Germany for causing the war* by driving them into bankruptcy with reparations payments.
The imposition of our values was the post-WWII Marshall Plan. And that seems to have worked out pretty well.
I'm rather irked, though, by the mutation of the Prime Directive. In TOS, General Order One forbade interference in the normal development of a viable pre-spaceflight civilization. This, of course, left the words "normal" and "viable" open to interpretation, permitting such events as Kirk's resolution of the situation in "The Apple" or "Patterns of Force" (the former being a nonviable civilization, the latter being an abnormal development). And of course once spaceflight is achieved, all bets are off, thus the events of "A Taste of Armageddon" (the Eminian Union had developed spaceflight, but was confined to the one solar system, where they were having a virtual war, with real deaths, against one of their offworld colonies).
In TNG, suddenly it becomes so hands-off that in "Pen Pal" Picard was willing to stand aside and let an entire civilization die rather than "interfere", at least until Data confronted him with the real "human" cost of his callousness. And it was expanded to include not merely spaceflight-capable civilizations, but starflight-capable civilizations, to the point that they were prohibited by this version of the PD from "interfering" with the Klingon civil war.
That one's just dumb, at least in my not-so-bleeding-humble opinion. Not interfering more than absolutely necessary with pre-spaceflight life forms makes sense - you can't guess how your actions might alter their development (cf Cargo Cults) - but once they've left their homeworld, they've lost their innocence, so to speak, and should be ready to accept the concept of alien life that knows things they don't yet.
And I can't see any way it applies to the Vaadwaur-Kobali conflict; the Kobali aren't a naturally viable civilization, but have to steal the dead from others in order to survive, and the Vaadwaur revival was hardly a normal development. Once we find out about how the Kobali have been lying to us, about damn near everything, we ought to be re-evaluating our position in this war, and perhaps working a little harder at negotiating a reasonable compromise (I like the idea of forcing the Kobali to return all those stasis pods to the Vaadwaur and trying to get their corpses honestly - I'm sure there are those who'd agree to it - and in return the Vaadwaur would have to cease all attempts to destroy the Kobali, or other "lesser" life-forms, or face the wrath of the Alliance).
That's not on Franklin. He did his job as a doctor. "First, do no harm." If anything Sinclair was in the wrong in that episode in not arresting the parents for infanticide.
I would also point out Babylon 5 later ridiculed the entire concept, first with the Lumati in "Acts of Sacrifice", then in Crusade's "Visitors from Down the Street" in my sig quote.
Okay, firstly, Franklin broke that Hypocratic Oath and EarthForce regulations by operating on the child without the parents' consent and without authorisation. By all rights, he should have cashiered and had his medical licence revoked. Also, B5 is neutral territory and as Sinclair pointed out, it would have been a gross violation of B5's neutrality had he intervened in the cultural laws of the child's people.
Finally, while Delenn stated that she wouldn't act against Doctor Franklin's personal judgement, it seems likely the Minbari would have extended diplomatic immunity if Sinclair did arrest the parents for their cultural ritual.
That's the real point; how far do we press our morals onto others? At what point does that become repression? Human morals are not sacrosanct; they do not apply to all species. If we interfere in the cultural rites of another society, we are acting against that society's right to choose how they live. You have the right to say 'this is wrong'. That doesn't give you the right to say 'you will do what we say is right'.
Cardassian occupation of Bajor. (no offense, gulberat--it isn't the fault of the Cardassian people that their leaders were evil TRIBBLE)
Prime Directive gets called, hundreds of millions of Bajorans died, and that's only the ones who were officially counted.
Clear failing of the PD.
The way I see it, there are two ways to go here. The right way (browbeat the Kobali into observing sentient rights conventions) and the anal bureaucrat way (call extreme PD and leave the Kobali to the Vaadwaur). I vote the former.
I vote for the latter, simply because the Federation has no right to browbeat the Kobali (or anyone else) into behaving a certain way within their own society... IMHO, better declare them quarantined, as in ToS, and simoly leave them to it...
I vote for the latter, simply because the Federation has no right to browbeat the Kobali (or anyone else) into behaving a certain way within their own society... IMHO, better declare them quarantined, as in ToS, and simoly leave them to it...
Agreed. Unless the Kobali actually ask the Federation to mediate (and the Vaadwaur agree), then it's not the Federation's place (or anyone else's) to tell the Kobali how to live.
Conscientious Objection is better than Belligerence.
I vote for the latter, simply because the Federation has no right to browbeat the Kobali (or anyone else) into behaving a certain way within their own society... IMHO, better declare them quarantined, as in ToS, and simoly leave them to it...
That would likely result in genocide of the Kobali species if Gaul were still in power, and mass casualties even now, because let's face it, the Kobali government is beyond stupid.
Now, the FEDERATION may have these moral qualms...but High Admiral D'trel certainly doesn't. And when she gets one taste too many of Kobali asininity, she pulls out her freaking sword.
Agreed. Unless the Kobali actually ask the Federation to mediate (and the Vaadwaur agree), then it's not the Federation's place (or anyone else's) to tell the Kobali how to live.
Conscientious Objection is better than Belligerence.
And even then, the Federation could still refuse, as Picard refused to be drawn into the Klingon civil war, even though he was Gowron's arbiter of succession (and happy to use the title when it suited him) They (the Federation) should simply remain neutral...
That would likely result in genocide of the Kobali species if Gaul were still in power, and mass casualties even now, because let's face it, the Kobali government is beyond stupid.
Now, the FEDERATION may have these moral qualms...but High Admiral D'trel certainly doesn't. And when she gets one taste too many of Kobali asininity, she pulls out her freaking sword.
And that's her right. No one is saying that the Romulans or the Klingons shouldn't intervene, as they have the right to make that decision for themselves. We're just saying that the Federation shouldn't intervene.
That would likely result in genocide of the Kobali species if Gaul were still in power, and mass casualties even now, because let's face it, the Kobali government is beyond stupid.
Now, the FEDERATION may have these moral qualms...but High Admiral D'trel certainly doesn't. And when she gets one taste too many of Kobali asininity, she pulls out her freaking sword.
Extinction, perhaps, but not genocide (at least certainly not genocide by the Federation, and even if genocide by the Vaadwaur, so what, it's not the Federation's place to tell them how to behave either...
And even then, the Federation could still refuse, as Picard refused to be drawn into the Klingon civil war, even though he was Gowron's arbiter of succession (and happy to use the title when it suited him) They (the Federation) should simply remain neutral...
I agree with interventionism only when both sides want an intervention (i.e peacekeeping). Otherwise, I'm isolationist. So, yeah, I agree with you, except I think if both the Vaadwaur and the Kobali want the Federation to mediate a peace, then that's another matter. Otherwise, it's like locking the House of Commons in the chamber and not letting them out until they agree (although that would be an idea... ).
My point is that there is a clear precedent (Kirk, Sisko, even Picard, heck, Janeway said TRIBBLE it a few times when the plot demanded it) AGAINST a strict view of the PD. Kirk explicitly stated that he'd rather TRIBBLE the PD than let an asteroid full of people die, Picard--mister Prime Directive himself--broke the PD on purpose nine times before TNG: "The Drumhead". All of those cases were considered fully justified.
In a genocide situation, before about episode 3 of Voyager, the PD was considered inapplicable or at least highly flexible.
I agree with interventionism only when both sides want an intervention (i.e peacekeeping). Otherwise, I'm isolationist. So, yeah, I agree with you, except I think if both the Vaadwaur and the Kobali want the Federation to mediate a peace, then that's another matter. Otherwise, it's like locking the House of Commons in the chamber and not letting them out until they agree (although that would be an idea... ).
And of course, even if both the Kobali and Vaadwaur approached the Federation, the Federation could still refuse to be drawn in on the grounds that it is not their place to be involved in the situation, which would have impacts on the progression of not just one, but two cultures... :cool:
I vote for the latter, simply because the Federation has no right to browbeat the Kobali (or anyone else) into behaving a certain way within their own society... IMHO, better declare them quarantined, as in ToS, and simoly leave them to it...
Extinction, perhaps, but not genocide (at least certainly not genocide by the Federation, and even if genocide by the Vaadwaur, so what, it's not the Federation's place to tell them how to behave either...
So, you would then have the Federation be a party to negligent genocide a la ENT: "Dear Doctor"?
We're already involved. We were involved the minute the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit of Kobali Prime. And hands-off is no more an acceptable response than letting the Kobalis' abuse of our trust stand.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
My point is that there is a clear precedent (Kirk, Sisko, even Picard, heck, Janeway said TRIBBLE it a few times when the plot demanded it) AGAINST a strict view of the PD. Kirk explicitly stated that he'd rather TRIBBLE the PD than let an asteroid full of people die, Picard--mister Prime Directive himself--broke the PD on purpose nine times before TNG: "The Drumhead". All of those cases were considered fully justified.
In a genocide situation, before about episode 3 of Voyager, the PD was considered inapplicable or at least highly flexible.
There might be precedents, but that does not necessarily mean that the view must be 'well they broke the PD so no harm no fowl if we do...' And again, with regard the use of the term 'genocide'... If the Vaadwaur want to exterminate the Kobali, I'd say they've got good reason to want to do that, so best to leave them to handle their business. Other than that, I would simply view it as the inevitable extinction of the Kobali, which is simply part lf the natural order...
My point is that there is a clear precedent (Kirk, Sisko, even Picard, heck, Janeway said TRIBBLE it a few times when the plot demanded it) AGAINST a strict view of the PD. Kirk explicitly stated that he'd rather TRIBBLE the PD than let an asteroid full of people die, Picard--mister Prime Directive himself--broke the PD on purpose nine times before TNG: "The Drumhead". All of those cases were considered fully justified.
In a genocide situation, before about episode 3 of Voyager, the PD was considered inapplicable or at least highly flexible.
True, but Federation Policy (separate from the Prime Directive) is against interfering with the affairs of other civilisations. All those cases were either situations where the culture in question had already been interfered with or where the situation would not have affected the development of the culture (technically, since the Ent-D was never caught in Pen Pals, you can argue they had no effect on the actual species' development, just their survival).
Also, Worf's Brother (Nikolai, I think?) was actually going to be prosecuted for violating the Prime Directive. He only got out of it because he decided to stay with the aliens after relocation.
There might be precedents, but that does not necessarily mean that the view must be 'well they broke the PD so no harm no fowl if we do...' And again, with regard the use of the term 'genocide'... If the Vaadwaur want to exterminate the Kobali, I'd say they've got good reason to want to do that, so best to leave them to handle their business. Other than that, I would simply view it as the inevitable extinction of the Kobali, which is simply part lf the natural order...
While from a strictly scientific POV I might agree, from a humanitarian view I have to disagree.
I have a Bio paper to complete, tho, and trying to wrap my head around crazy biology from a badly-written sci-fi show is killing my mind, so I'm not getting into this debate.
So, you would then have the Federation be a party to negligent genocide a la ENT: "Dear Doctor"?
We're already involved. We were involved the minute the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit of Kobali Prime. And hands-off is no more an acceptable response than letting the Kobalis' abuse of our trust stand.
That's what the Prime Directive dictates, and in this situation, I can't see a reason to break it. That level of 'involvement' (taken outside of Plot Requirement) is spurious. So a ship turns up in orbit... It doesn't have to take action which will impact a society, it could still maintain neutrality and simply leave the area...
While from a strictly scientific POV I might agree, from a humanitarian view I have to disagree.
I have a Bio paper to complete, tho, and trying to wrap my head around crazy biology from a badly-written sci-fi show is killing my mind, so I'm not getting into this debate.
I'd have to take the scientific POV in a situation like this, as the humanitarian view causes more issues than it resolves...
I'd have to take the scientific POV in a situation like this, as the humanitarian view causes more issues than it resolves...
And that's kind of the problem. It's a massive sentient rights violation to leave now.
The ideal, of course, is the Kobali experience rapid regime change and start apologizing to everyone. Your argument is legally supportable, but ONLY before the Alliance landed on Kobali Prime. Once we gave them our help, we were involved, like it or not, and discontinuing that assistance knowing what the Vaadwaur would do is just as much a crime against sentience as letting the Kobali doing their **** unopposed.
And that's kind of the problem. It's a massive sentient rights violation to leave now.
The ideal, of course, is the Kobali experience rapid regime change and start apologizing to everyone. Your argument is legally supportable, but ONLY before the Alliance landed on Kobali Prime. Once we gave them our help, we were involved, like it or not, and discontinuing that assistance knowing what the Vaadwaur would do is just as much a crime against sentience as letting the Kobali doing their **** unopposed.
Hence why I say try to bring both sides to the negotiating table; offer the Kobali cloning tech on the condition they return all Vaadwaur in stasis (or dead) and in return the Vaadwaur stop attacking the Kobali. If the Kobali refuse, that's their choice. The result is on their head.
There's nothing like the threat of total annihilation to foster interstellar peace and understanding.
And that's kind of the problem. It's a massive sentient rights violation to leave now.
The ideal, of course, is the Kobali experience rapid regime change and start apologizing to everyone. Your argument is legally supportable, but ONLY before the Alliance landed on Kobali Prime. Once we gave them our help, we were involved, like it or not, and discontinuing that assistance knowing what the Vaadwaur would do is just as much a crime against sentience as letting the Kobali doing their **** unopposed.
Not so. Well, yes, sentient's rights are being violated, but not initially by the Federation, nor is there any real reason for the Federation to assume the position of being the one to resolve the situation, or be guilted into "But we'll die if you don't..." as that's just manipulation (which the Kobali seem adept at) The Vaadwaur should be allowed to exterminate them (as they're realistically heading towards extinction anyway, so better to prevent them from directly violating the rights of future sentients by their inability to operate differently)
That's what the Prime Directive dictates, and in this situation, I can't see a reason to break it. That level of 'involvement' (taken outside of Plot Requirement) is spurious. So a ship turns up in orbit... It doesn't have to take action which will impact a society, it could still maintain neutrality and simply leave the area...
What I meant by "when the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit" was that the opportunity to not involve ourselves under the PD came and went long ago. By your definition, we've broken the Prime Directive a zillion different ways in Delta Rising, not least of them by overthrowing Gaul. We were breaking the Prime Directive by involving ourselves in a police action that did not concern us way back when people started grinding Argala.
In fact, according to the Prime Directive we should let the Delta Quadrant as a whole fend for itself and the Delta Alliance shouldn't exist because we're interfering in the foreign policy of dozens of species, right?
You see my point? The Kirk approach, determining things on a case-by-case basis instead of treating the PD as blanket dogma, is the only approach to it that makes any kind of rational sense. And I'm firmly in the camp that says if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have a responsibility to take action.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Not so. Well, yes, sentient's rights are being violated, but not initially by the Federation, nor is there any real reason for the Federation to assume the position of being the one to resolve the situation, or be guilted into "But we'll die if you don't..." as that's just manipulation (which the Kobali seem adept at) The Vaadwaur should be allowed to exterminate them (as they're realistically heading towards extinction anyway, so better to prevent them from directly violating the rights of future sentients by their inability to operate differently)
This I disagree with. The Federation should at least attempt to form some kind of compromise between the two sides. If that fails, fine, keep trying - just don't actually engage the Vaadwaur to protect the Kobali. That's how the Federation should have handled it from the beginning!
What I meant by "when the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit" was that the opportunity to not involve ourselves under the PD came and went long ago. By your definition, we've broken the Prime Directive a zillion different ways in Delta Rising, not least of them by overthrowing Gaul. We were breaking the Prime Directive by involving ourselves in a police action that did not concern us way back when people started grinding Argala.
As mentioned upthread, just because the PD has been violated, that does not justify further violations.
In fact, according to the Prime Directive we should let the Delta Quadrant as a whole fend for itself and the Delta Alliance shouldn't exist because we're interfering in the foreign policy of dozens of species, right?
You see my point? The Kirk approach, determining things on a case-by-case basis instead of treating the PD as blanket dogma, is the only approach to it that makes any kind of rational sense. And I'm firmly in the camp that says if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have a responsibility to take action.
Not when you are an officer, who's Prime Directive is to not interfere with the internal affairs or development lf alien cultures under Any Circumstances. On paper, the life of an officer, even the destruction of a ship, is considered sacrificeable if it would prevent a PD violation, and as an officer, it is an officer's duty to uphole that directive...
What I meant by "when the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit" was that the opportunity to not involve ourselves under the PD came and went long ago. By your definition, we've broken the Prime Directive a zillion different ways in Delta Rising, not least of them by overthrowing Gaul. We were breaking the Prime Directive by involving ourselves in a police action that did not concern us way back when people started grinding Argala.
In fact, according to the Prime Directive we should let the Delta Quadrant as a whole fend for itself and the Delta Alliance shouldn't exist because we're interfering in the foreign policy of dozens of species, right?
You see my point? The Kirk approach, determining things on a case-by-case basis instead of treating the PD as blanket dogma, is the only approach to it that makes any kind of rational sense. And I'm firmly in the camp that says if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have a responsibility to take action.
This is what I'm saying.
The Prime Directive is a guideline that is intended to protect pre-warp species from things like what happened to the Siohonin in shevet's last story; getting what they see as god-mode tech and having their entire culture annihilated. While the Siohonin culture had no redeeming features and encouraged the formation of cults (a phenomenon that I despise for deeply personal reasons), there are plenty of reasons that annihilating a culture, especially by accident, is a bad thing.
tl;dr: The PD as intended is "hey, dudes, don't set yourself up as Emperor Mudd or turn an entire culture into space TRIBBLE." It is frequently misinterpreted to mean "It's OK to let people die as long as you watch it and are very careful to not interfere in any way."
This I disagree with. The Federation should at least attempt to form some kind of compromise between the two sides. If that fails, fine, keep trying - just don't actually engage the Vaadwaur to protect the Kobali. That's how the Federation should have handled it from the beginning!
But that, would still be interfering in the affairs of (two) other cultures by the impact such mediation would still cause... By remaining utterly neutral and doing nothing whatsoever, is the only way the Prime Directive can actually be satisfied in this instance... (but of course, that then isn't much of a story )
The Prime Directive is a guideline that is intended to protect pre-warp species from things like what happened to the Siohonin in shevet's last story; getting what they see as god-mode tech and having their entire culture annihilated. While the Siohonin culture had no redeeming features and encouraged the formation of cults (a phenomenon that I despise for deeply personal reasons), there are plenty of reasons that annihilating a culture, especially by accident, is a bad thing.
tl;dr: The PD as intended is "hey, dudes, don't set yourself up as Emperor Mudd or turn an entire culture into space TRIBBLE." It is frequently misinterpreted to mean "It's OK to let people die as long as you watch it and are very careful to not interfere in any way."
I don't consider that a misinterpretation, simply a hard reality which makes people uncomfortable...
From Memory Alpha:
The Prime Directive, also known as Starfleet General Order 1 or the Non-Interference Directive, was the embodiment of one of Starfleet's most important ethical principles: noninterference with other cultures and civilizations. At its core was the philosophical concept that covered personnel should refrain from interfering in the natural, unassisted, development of societies, even if such interference was well-intentioned. The Prime Directive was viewed as so fundamental to Starfleet that officers swore to uphold the Prime Directive, even at the cost of their own life or the lives of their crew.
Comments
Alright.
In Season 1 of B5, Doctor Franklin goes against the cultural norms of a child's parents by giving the child a life-saving operation - in tune with his own moral code and that of humanity's. The result is that the parents commit a ritual murder of the child believing his soul had already left his body when Franklin operated, making the child a demon. Franklin's meddling based on his ethics end up doing the exact opposite of what he intended.
I should note that Sinclair gives Franklin a very verbal dressing down for this, with Franklin even offering his resignation. Sinclair makes it clear that if it happens again, he'd throw Franklin off the station.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That's not on Franklin. He did his job as a doctor. "First, do no harm." If anything Sinclair was in the wrong in that episode in not arresting the parents for infanticide.
I would also point out Babylon 5 later ridiculed the entire concept, first with the Lumati in "Acts of Sacrifice", then in Crusade's "Visitors from Down the Street" in my sig quote.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I pointed this out earlier; in order for it to be a universal law, it has to be ratified by the majority of sentient space-faring species. No one in the delta quadrant signed these conventions, so the signatories are in the minority - in other words, the Federation don't have the majority right to impose it on the Kobali. Especially given the Vaadwaur don't recognise those conventions either.
Again, I totally agree that the Kobali are doing something wrong, and fully sympathise with the Vaadwaur exacting retribution; I just refuse to accept the Federation has the right to force the Kobali into negotiating. Withhold aid, sure, but unless the Kobali actually ask them to mediate negotiations (assuming the Vaadwaur agreed to negotiate, which they might), the Federation should not impose Federation values on an independent race.
If the Kobali are going to change, it has to be their choice (even if it is at the threat of total annihilation).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
They can judge all they want, they just can't interfere with their culture's progress...
My thoughts in general (not aimed to ryan)
The idea of the Kobali is interesting and 'works' in isolation, but when put under the microscope, they are abhorrent in, not just their reproductive practices (possibly desecrating the remains of other species, I seem to recal that Cardassians do not like non-Cardassians touching their dead) but the way they treat their 're-born', which as mentioned above, is simply indoctrination and mental abuse. At least with the Borg, the personality is immediately suppressed, but the process can (mostly) been undone, and even a disconnected drone will revert to their native personality within hours of seperation from the Collective... With the Kobali, it is apparently brainwashing, and that's not cool (especially if the native personality can still survive the reanimation process, which would make sense, as the same neural pathways are being utilized)
I wonder how the Kobali culture, which is based upon the recycling of corpses, would react to an Immortal: A creature not only potentially beyond their ability to 're-engineer', but never (for the most part) succuming to the condition which labels a body as 'fair game'... Would they be viewed in elevation as being Beyond, or would they be viewed as some kind of 'infidel' without the potential to be re-born into 'Kobali Greatness'...
I don't think the Federation has any business telling the Kobali how to Live/Die, but equally, they should be considered unsuitable as allies and left to their own devices, rather than interracted with..,
I'm rather irked, though, by the mutation of the Prime Directive. In TOS, General Order One forbade interference in the normal development of a viable pre-spaceflight civilization. This, of course, left the words "normal" and "viable" open to interpretation, permitting such events as Kirk's resolution of the situation in "The Apple" or "Patterns of Force" (the former being a nonviable civilization, the latter being an abnormal development). And of course once spaceflight is achieved, all bets are off, thus the events of "A Taste of Armageddon" (the Eminian Union had developed spaceflight, but was confined to the one solar system, where they were having a virtual war, with real deaths, against one of their offworld colonies).
In TNG, suddenly it becomes so hands-off that in "Pen Pal" Picard was willing to stand aside and let an entire civilization die rather than "interfere", at least until Data confronted him with the real "human" cost of his callousness. And it was expanded to include not merely spaceflight-capable civilizations, but starflight-capable civilizations, to the point that they were prohibited by this version of the PD from "interfering" with the Klingon civil war.
That one's just dumb, at least in my not-so-bleeding-humble opinion. Not interfering more than absolutely necessary with pre-spaceflight life forms makes sense - you can't guess how your actions might alter their development (cf Cargo Cults) - but once they've left their homeworld, they've lost their innocence, so to speak, and should be ready to accept the concept of alien life that knows things they don't yet.
And I can't see any way it applies to the Vaadwaur-Kobali conflict; the Kobali aren't a naturally viable civilization, but have to steal the dead from others in order to survive, and the Vaadwaur revival was hardly a normal development. Once we find out about how the Kobali have been lying to us, about damn near everything, we ought to be re-evaluating our position in this war, and perhaps working a little harder at negotiating a reasonable compromise (I like the idea of forcing the Kobali to return all those stasis pods to the Vaadwaur and trying to get their corpses honestly - I'm sure there are those who'd agree to it - and in return the Vaadwaur would have to cease all attempts to destroy the Kobali, or other "lesser" life-forms, or face the wrath of the Alliance).
Okay, firstly, Franklin broke that Hypocratic Oath and EarthForce regulations by operating on the child without the parents' consent and without authorisation. By all rights, he should have cashiered and had his medical licence revoked. Also, B5 is neutral territory and as Sinclair pointed out, it would have been a gross violation of B5's neutrality had he intervened in the cultural laws of the child's people.
Finally, while Delenn stated that she wouldn't act against Doctor Franklin's personal judgement, it seems likely the Minbari would have extended diplomatic immunity if Sinclair did arrest the parents for their cultural ritual.
That's the real point; how far do we press our morals onto others? At what point does that become repression? Human morals are not sacrosanct; they do not apply to all species. If we interfere in the cultural rites of another society, we are acting against that society's right to choose how they live. You have the right to say 'this is wrong'. That doesn't give you the right to say 'you will do what we say is right'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I vote for the latter, simply because the Federation has no right to browbeat the Kobali (or anyone else) into behaving a certain way within their own society... IMHO, better declare them quarantined, as in ToS, and simoly leave them to it...
Agreed. Unless the Kobali actually ask the Federation to mediate (and the Vaadwaur agree), then it's not the Federation's place (or anyone else's) to tell the Kobali how to live.
Conscientious Objection is better than Belligerence.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That would likely result in genocide of the Kobali species if Gaul were still in power, and mass casualties even now, because let's face it, the Kobali government is beyond stupid.
Now, the FEDERATION may have these moral qualms...but High Admiral D'trel certainly doesn't. And when she gets one taste too many of Kobali asininity, she pulls out her freaking sword.
And that's her right. No one is saying that the Romulans or the Klingons shouldn't intervene, as they have the right to make that decision for themselves. We're just saying that the Federation shouldn't intervene.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Extinction, perhaps, but not genocide (at least certainly not genocide by the Federation, and even if genocide by the Vaadwaur, so what, it's not the Federation's place to tell them how to behave either...
I agree with interventionism only when both sides want an intervention (i.e peacekeeping). Otherwise, I'm isolationist. So, yeah, I agree with you, except I think if both the Vaadwaur and the Kobali want the Federation to mediate a peace, then that's another matter. Otherwise, it's like locking the House of Commons in the chamber and not letting them out until they agree (although that would be an idea...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
In a genocide situation, before about episode 3 of Voyager, the PD was considered inapplicable or at least highly flexible.
And of course, even if both the Kobali and Vaadwaur approached the Federation, the Federation could still refuse to be drawn in on the grounds that it is not their place to be involved in the situation, which would have impacts on the progression of not just one, but two cultures... :cool:
We're already involved. We were involved the minute the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit of Kobali Prime. And hands-off is no more an acceptable response than letting the Kobalis' abuse of our trust stand.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There might be precedents, but that does not necessarily mean that the view must be 'well they broke the PD so no harm no fowl if we do...' And again, with regard the use of the term 'genocide'... If the Vaadwaur want to exterminate the Kobali, I'd say they've got good reason to want to do that, so best to leave them to handle their business. Other than that, I would simply view it as the inevitable extinction of the Kobali, which is simply part lf the natural order...
True, but Federation Policy (separate from the Prime Directive) is against interfering with the affairs of other civilisations. All those cases were either situations where the culture in question had already been interfered with or where the situation would not have affected the development of the culture (technically, since the Ent-D was never caught in Pen Pals, you can argue they had no effect on the actual species' development, just their survival).
Also, Worf's Brother (Nikolai, I think?) was actually going to be prosecuted for violating the Prime Directive. He only got out of it because he decided to stay with the aliens after relocation.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
While from a strictly scientific POV I might agree, from a humanitarian view I have to disagree.
I have a Bio paper to complete, tho, and trying to wrap my head around crazy biology from a badly-written sci-fi show is killing my mind, so I'm not getting into this debate.
And that's kind of the problem. It's a massive sentient rights violation to leave now.
The ideal, of course, is the Kobali experience rapid regime change and start apologizing to everyone. Your argument is legally supportable, but ONLY before the Alliance landed on Kobali Prime. Once we gave them our help, we were involved, like it or not, and discontinuing that assistance knowing what the Vaadwaur would do is just as much a crime against sentience as letting the Kobali doing their **** unopposed.
Hence why I say try to bring both sides to the negotiating table; offer the Kobali cloning tech on the condition they return all Vaadwaur in stasis (or dead) and in return the Vaadwaur stop attacking the Kobali. If the Kobali refuse, that's their choice. The result is on their head.
There's nothing like the threat of total annihilation to foster interstellar peace and understanding.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Not so. Well, yes, sentient's rights are being violated, but not initially by the Federation, nor is there any real reason for the Federation to assume the position of being the one to resolve the situation, or be guilted into "But we'll die if you don't..." as that's just manipulation (which the Kobali seem adept at) The Vaadwaur should be allowed to exterminate them (as they're realistically heading towards extinction anyway, so better to prevent them from directly violating the rights of future sentients by their inability to operate differently)
What I meant by "when the USS Rhode Island showed up in orbit" was that the opportunity to not involve ourselves under the PD came and went long ago. By your definition, we've broken the Prime Directive a zillion different ways in Delta Rising, not least of them by overthrowing Gaul. We were breaking the Prime Directive by involving ourselves in a police action that did not concern us way back when people started grinding Argala.
In fact, according to the Prime Directive we should let the Delta Quadrant as a whole fend for itself and the Delta Alliance shouldn't exist because we're interfering in the foreign policy of dozens of species, right?
You see my point? The Kirk approach, determining things on a case-by-case basis instead of treating the PD as blanket dogma, is the only approach to it that makes any kind of rational sense. And I'm firmly in the camp that says if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have a responsibility to take action.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
This I disagree with. The Federation should at least attempt to form some kind of compromise between the two sides. If that fails, fine, keep trying - just don't actually engage the Vaadwaur to protect the Kobali. That's how the Federation should have handled it from the beginning!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yup...
Not when you are an officer, who's Prime Directive is to not interfere with the internal affairs or development lf alien cultures under Any Circumstances. On paper, the life of an officer, even the destruction of a ship, is considered sacrificeable if it would prevent a PD violation, and as an officer, it is an officer's duty to uphole that directive...
This is what I'm saying.
The Prime Directive is a guideline that is intended to protect pre-warp species from things like what happened to the Siohonin in shevet's last story; getting what they see as god-mode tech and having their entire culture annihilated. While the Siohonin culture had no redeeming features and encouraged the formation of cults (a phenomenon that I despise for deeply personal reasons), there are plenty of reasons that annihilating a culture, especially by accident, is a bad thing.
tl;dr: The PD as intended is "hey, dudes, don't set yourself up as Emperor Mudd or turn an entire culture into space TRIBBLE." It is frequently misinterpreted to mean "It's OK to let people die as long as you watch it and are very careful to not interfere in any way."
From Memory Alpha: