Actually... if you don't have a contract with the Hazari, they will do anything and everything they feel like doing if they think it will benefit them somehow. In case you forgot, when you get them to ally with you they lie to you before you even finish the first conversation. THEN they trick you into helping them infiltrate a third party that you were also negotiating with to get them to be your ally.
When do they lie in that episode? They do omit the truth, but when you call them on it (thanks to the most undiplomatic diplomat ever to make eyes bleed noticing the blindingly obvious; I mean, the Hazari are as subtle as bricks about the whole affair), they freely admit what they did, and the implication of the contract is that it is iron, that they wouldn't break it for any reason.
The Hazari are specifically and repeatedly established as dependably loyal bounty hunters and mercs. If you pay them, they will do whatever it takes to do what you want. That's maybe not strictly Federation member material, but the Klingons and Romulans would love that attitude, and they'd make great subcontractors anyway.
Did you play Dust to Dust? The Hirogen guy who attacks you specifically says he's your ally. And that your status as an ally is the only reason he talked to you before attacking you.
I certainly don't recall that. And let's face it, Hirogen have never to my knowledge just surprise-attacked their prey. They seem to find it important to let their prey know that they're part of a hunt. I'm going to fault Cryptic for writing if what you say is true.
Actually... if you don't have a contract with the Hazari, they will do anything and everything they feel like doing if they think it will benefit them somehow. In case you forgot, when you get them to ally with you they lie to you before you even finish the first conversation. THEN they trick you into helping them infiltrate a third party that you were also negotiating with to get them to be your ally.
Honestly the Hazari remind me of Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. They'll hold scrupulously to the letter of their contract; it's the spirit you've got to worry about. (As an aside, I was disappointed that when I played "Alliances" on my Romulan there wasn't an option to give the Hazari guy an impressed, "Well played.")
They're no worse than realistically-played Ferengi, and less annoying. In fact, now that I think about it, remember the 16th and 17th Rules of Acquisition? The Hazari would hate the Ferengi because they will go back on a deal if it suits them, contract be damned.
Did you play Dust to Dust? The Hirogen guy who attacks you specifically says he's your ally. And that your status as an ally is the only reason he talked to you before attacking you.
I interpreted that as that particular fellow not being affiliated with the Delta Alliance. The Hirogen are at least as nomadic and clannish as the Kazon if not more so, and only three of about sixteen Kazon clans are Alliance members. Likewise we've got one particular Hirogen pack as allies. Others stayed independent, and another even made it to the Beta Quadrant at some point and shacked up with Sela.
He talked to you before attacking you because the Delta Alliance is powerful enough to be wary of, which is rather the entire point of a mutual defense pact. Unfortunately there weren't enough ships present to make the deterrent strong enough for him to back off altogether; he figured he could get in, steal the Samsar, and get out before reinforcements arrived.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Whatever made the Kobali what they are, it was clearly a long time ago... if it was a crime, or a mistake, the Kobali responsible for it are long dead. I don't think we can hold a people accountable for the crimes or errors of their remote ancestors.
As regards their current conduct - the constant lies and spin-doctoring - now, that's a whole other issue.
The Kobali have proven themselves deceitful, time and again. They are not interested in respecting the rights or the customs of others, but they absolutely demand respect for themselves. The co-option of enemy battlefield casualties - and their insistence that there's nothing wrong with this, it's all done out of highly moral motives, they love their Vaadwaur zombie soldiers unconditionally - shows just how far they're prepared to go.
Holding onto the Vaadwaur stasis pods, at this stage, is utterly indefensible... I'm not sure it ever was defensible, although you could argue that keeping Vaadwaur numbers as low as possible makes sense, while they're waging war with the rest of the quadrant. But letting the Kobali keep them? "Oh, we only convert Vaadwaur whose stasis pods have already failed" - yeah, right. Given the Kobali's track record to date, would you trust them to do essential servicing and maintenance on those pods?
On any sort of moral level, the Vaadwaur are in the right to try and take their people back from the Kobali. (The rest of the Vaadwaur agenda, now, that's a problem.) The Prime Directive cuts both ways in this situation - it may be part of the Kobali culture to assimilate handy corpses, but it's equally part of Vaadwaur culture not to get assimilated.
All my characters outrank that idiot Benzite, and my KDF and Romulan characters don't necessarily care about any interpretation of the Prime Directive. For that matter, my Starfleet characters all have ambassadorial status, too. Given a free hand, I would be shipping that Benzite back to the Alpha Quadrant, to take up duties more fitting to her abilities - I'm sure Ensign Rraak could train her up to be his assistant, given time - and renegotiating with the Kobali and the Vaadwaur on the basis that a) the Vaadwaur can have their people back once they prove they can get along with others, and b) the Kobali can practice their methods of reproduction strictly on a basis of informed consent. If someone wills their body to the Kobali, or the next of kin give adequate permission, fine. Otherwise, no.
(Can you imagine the courage of those Vaadwaur soldiers on Kobali Prime? Knowing that if they fall, they won't just die, but will die and come back as their own worst enemies? Say what you like about the Vaadwaur - and there is plenty to say against them, even without Gaul and the bluegills - but they have sure as heck got some guts!)
Framed like that, it really makes you think about what it takes to go into combat against the Borg...yeah, that would be pretty terrifying.
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So I started it. It's just a one-shot, but that non-Masterverse Berat story (hah, technically this makes three universes I've written Berat in now...) is underway and titled "The Blood of Dragons."
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The Kobali are great, they are kind people and they fought to defend their world. As for their rebirth thing: its not their fault their d*cks dont work, they need to reproduce somehow. And people fussing about the stasis pods they rage quit: the Kobali promised not to rebirth anymore Vaadwaur. Im trying to create a Kobali toon I like them so much, and I am honored to have a Kobali on my bridge crew.
Post hate mail below
I'm not a fan of the methods they employ:
1-Lack of consent.
2-Holding the newly re-birthed against their will. And not accepting the newly re-birthed opinion until it matches their own. Newly re-birthed run away and are tracked down and dragged back to Kobali or held until convinced or conditioned.
Other niggles: First life Memory treatment: For a group that claims not to remember (or rather, forgets about) much about their former lives as reasons for them being special; it seems that some remember much more than others. I understand that much of this was done for story reasons, but it opens inconsistencies (Kim forgets his family during the episode but Lyndsay Ballard, now Jhetleya, remembers her relationship with Kim?) and plot holes. Better to have all former memory lost. I think if the re-birthed remember, or even if they do not, they should be free to choose.
My solution on my ship:
The Rebirth (Kobali) Boffs I picked up are asylumees on my ship. While thankful for another chance at life; they both are horrified with how other Kobali have acted (re-birthing, holding people on Kobali Prime against their will, etc.), retain memories of their first lives, and could not openly disagree on Kobali Prime. They are not interested in participating in that society any longer (they are outfitted in TOS uniforms) or at this moment. On my ship they are working with telepaths, (Vulcans, Dr. Sibak's offspring, etc) and meditative practices to uncover memories of their first life as a act of self discovery. I refer to them as TRIBBLE(Original Society/Culture)-Kobali, in this case Deltan-Kobali and Cravic-Kobali, maybe even Deltan-K and Cravic-K.
You know, your take on the Kobali BOFFs makes it actually make sense why she risks making contact with you in the seemingly embarrassing and awkward situation in the maze. I'd kind of thought something a bit similar about mine, but that really seals the deal there.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
So I started it. It's just a one-shot, but that non-Masterverse Berat story (hah, technically this makes three universes I've written Berat in now...) is underway and titled "The Blood of Dragons."
You know, your take on the Kobali BOFFs makes it actually make sense why she risks making contact with you in the seemingly embarrassing and awkward situation in the maze. I'd kind of thought something a bit similar about mine, but that really seals the deal there.
You know, your take on the Kobali BOFFs makes it actually make sense why she risks making contact with you in the seemingly embarrassing and awkward situation in the maze. I'd kind of thought something a bit similar about mine, but that really seals the deal there.
Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm still working out stories, histories, and individual nuances for the BOFF's.
You catch the Kobali outright lying to the Alliance that's trying to keep them alive. Several times. You also have to take note of their military and security incompetence. "Dust to Dust" sinks their horrible reputation even further than it was before. Them losing their new flagship to an until-very-recently-deceased-very confused-starfleet-officer-in-progress-of-being-zombified is an all time LOW.
At least Commander Jarok is no longer alone in incompetent starship captains in STO. She almost loses the flagship of the Rom Republic, a damn Scimitar-class, to a Vaadwaur Boarding Party III. And no, the Super Vaadwaur Officer is not that big a threat. It took Picard and Riker a few high powered Phaser shots to blast one person possessed by a bluegill.
And no, the Super Vaadwaur Officer is not that big a threat. It took Picard and Riker a few high powered Phaser shots to blast one person possessed by a bluegill.
Between assuming that not only the entire Lleiset crew, but the player and his away team as well, are complete idiots, and assuming that this is due to a difference in the way Vaadwaur physiology interacts with bluegills, I'd very easily choose the latter.
As for the Samsar, there was nobody on the bridge. If he could beam to the bridge, which, IIRC, he did, then he could lock down the entire ship, preventing the isolated repair teams from stopping him within the relatively short period during which the rest of the mission takes place.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Between assuming that not only the entire Lleiset crew, but the player and his away team as well, are complete idiots, and assuming that this is due to a difference in the way Vaadwaur physiology interacts with bluegills, I'd very easily choose the latter.
Alternatively, since we already know from "What's Left Behind" that the Solanae did some dicking around with the bluegills before they started implanting them, it's entirely possible they were engineered for higher durability than the ones Picard et al. dealt with.
As for the Samsar, there was nobody on the bridge. If he could beam to the bridge, which, IIRC, he did, then he could lock down the entire ship, preventing the isolated repair teams from stopping him within the relatively short period during which the rest of the mission takes place.
Yeah, calling BS on that. What kind of idiot leaves a mission-critical area like the bridge of a ship completely unmanned at any time?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Alternatively, since we already know from "What's Left Behind" that the Solanae did some dicking around with the bluegills before they started implanting them, it's entirely possible they were engineered for higher durability than the ones Picard et al. dealt with.
That makes sense, the Iconians may be beyond idiotic but at least their minions are smart...
Do I need to point out the Prime Directive? Starfleet Officers have no right to judge the cultures of alien species. And, personally, the kind of disgust the Kobali bring in players seems somewhat arrogant; it's not our way, but that doesn't make it the wrong way.
Do I need to point out the Prime Directive? Starfleet Officers have no right to judge the cultures of alien species. And, personally, the kind of disgust the Kobali bring in players seems somewhat arrogant; it's not our way, but that doesn't make it the wrong way.
My 2 pence.
While I don't have a problem with the IDEA of rebirth per se, the Kobali do not respect consent and use a method that clearly violates sentient rights. Also, they are a textbook example of domestic abuse on a species-wide scale. And they lie like dogs. And they treat sentient rights as optional.
Calling Prime Directive here is like watching a kid slowly torture a cat to death and walking away because we have no right to judge those actions. Or, alternatively, Jellico watching Picard be tortured and brainwashed by Gul Madred and saying "ah, TRIBBLE it, that's the Cardassian way, Prime Directive".
Alternatively, since we already know from "What's Left Behind" that the Solanae did some dicking around with the bluegills before they started implanting them, it's entirely possible they were engineered for higher durability than the ones Picard et al. dealt with.
That's also an option. I think that mission was meant to imply that the bluegills as a whole are a Solanae creation, though.
Yeah, calling BS on that. What kind of idiot leaves a mission-critical area like the bridge of a ship completely unmanned at any time?
*shrugs* I think it said something like that in the dialogue. Doesn't mean I don't agree with your second sentence. :P
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
While I don't have a problem with the IDEA of rebirth per se, the Kobali do not respect consent and use a method that clearly violates sentient rights. Also, they are a textbook example of domestic abuse on a species-wide scale. And they lie like dogs. And they treat sentient rights as optional.
Calling Prime Directive here is like watching a kid slowly torture a cat to death and walking away because we have no right to judge those actions. Or, alternatively, Jellico watching Picard be tortured and brainwashed by Gul Madred and saying "ah, TRIBBLE it, that's the Cardassian way, Prime Directive".
Those examples don't really apply. Who's to say what sentient rights are? The main problem with interstellar law in Star Trek is that it isn't valid outside the Alpha Quadrant. No one in the Delta Quadrant signed the Khitomer Accords - it doesn't apply to them. That child is still the parent's responsibility - the Kobali aren't the Federation's. You're trying to argue international politics and xenoculture with domestic ethics.
Do I agree with the Kobali using Vaadwaur corpses? No, but it isn't the Federation's right to tell them they're wrong. That's just superpower syndrome - the idea that the strong/advanced have the right to dictate to the small, like Britain in the 1800s or the USA since the 1950s.
Back on topic, my point is that we have no right to condemn the Kobali for using Vaadwaur corpses - interstellar law doesn't apply in Delta Quadrant, and I should point out that while what the Kobali do with the Vaadwaur corpses is immoral in my opinion, there are no agreements between the Vaadwaur and the Kobali about returning the dead like we have in real life. As far as the Kobali are concerned, the corpses are empty shells.
That said, I doubt the Kobali are going to agree to return Vaadwaur corpses unless the Vaadwaur ended the assault on Kobali Prime, which won't happen because the Vaadwaur are incensed at their dead being used as bodies for the Kobali.
In short, I agree that the Kobali are doing wrong by human standards, but that doesn't mean we have the right to say they're doing wrong by some universal law. It's a bit like a christian telling an athiest he's doing wrong by not going to church.
EDIT: I should also note that you guys do realise the whole point of the OP's post was to start a flame war, right?
Those examples don't really apply. Who's to say what sentient rights are? The main problem with interstellar law in Star Trek is that it isn't valid outside the Alpha Quadrant. No one in the Delta Quadrant signed the Khitomer Accords - it doesn't apply to them. That child is still the parent's responsibility - the Kobali aren't the Federation's. You're trying to argue international politics and xenoculture with domestic ethics.
Do I agree with the Kobali using Vaadwaur corpses? No, but it isn't the Federation's right to tell them they're wrong. That's just superpower syndrome - the idea that the strong/advanced have the right to dictate to the small, like Britain in the 1800s or the USA since the 1950s.
Back on topic, my point is that we have no right to condemn the Kobali for using Vaadwaur corpses - interstellar law doesn't apply in Delta Quadrant, and I should point out that while what the Kobali do with the Vaadwaur corpses is immoral in my opinion, there are no agreements between the Vaadwaur and the Kobali about returning the dead like we have in real life. As far as the Kobali are concerned, the corpses are empty shells.
That said, I doubt the Kobali are going to agree to return Vaadwaur corpses unless the Vaadwaur ended the assault on Kobali Prime, which won't happen because the Vaadwaur are incensed at their dead being used as bodies for the Kobali.
In short, I agree that the Kobali are doing wrong by human standards, but that doesn't mean we have the right to say they're doing wrong by some universal law. It's a bit like a christian telling an athiest he's doing wrong by not going to church.
EDIT: I should also note that you guys do realise the whole point of the OP's post was to start a flame war, right?
The problem is that not only are we allied with people who are morally abhorrent to us against people who, minus their scumbag leaders, aren't any worse than some of our current allies. And we don't get a choice in the matter.
We could debate moral relativism for forever and a day, but frankly it's inherently fallacious (for long and complicated reasons), and frankly I'm tired of this entire quite reasonable but rehashed-into-oblivion debate anyway.
The problem is that not only are we allied with people who are morally abhorrent to us against people who, minus their scumbag leaders, aren't any worse than some of our current allies. And we don't get a choice in the matter.
We could debate moral relativism for forever and a day, but frankly it's inherently fallacious (for long and complicated reasons), and frankly I'm tired of this entire quite reasonable but rehashed-into-oblivion debate anyway.
Agreed. Moral relativism is one of those topics which is philosophical, not idealogical.
And you are right, politically it makes no sense for the Federation to be actively supporting the Kobali aside from preventing genocide.
The difference is that no one is harming anybody else by choosing to worship or not worship in a particular religion--and on top of that, faith must never be coerced.
However, if someone's *actions* are harming others, then IMO force is justified to make those actions stop by use of a reasonable amount of force if negotiation fails. I don't care if the person committing murder is this or that type of human, or a Bajoran, or a Cardassian, or a Vaadwaur, or a Kobali. Some things *are* absolutes, whether it is the weaker or the stronger power that is in error.
Now, it happens with the Kobali that if sufficient pressure is applied I think they can be compelled to negotiate; this isn't a Borg situation where the possibility of individuals changing their minds is nonexistent. AND I think viable, consensual alternatives can be worked out. I'd be pleased with a solution where volunteers willed their bodies to the Kobali, and I can see some constituencies with reasons to be interested IMO.
So I would prefer a diplomatic solution in this case, but IMO if stopping flagrant sentient rights abuses would get me called an "imperialist," I'd be much less concerned with being insulted than I would with the lives I could save from torture.
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The difference is that no one is harming anybody else by choosing to worship or not worship in a particular religion--and on top of that, faith must never be coerced.
However, if someone's *actions* are harming others, then IMO force is justified to make those actions stop by use of a reasonable amount of force if negotiation fails. I don't care if the person committing murder is this or that type of human, or a Bajoran, or a Cardassian, or a Vaadwaur, or a Kobali. Some things *are* absolutes, whether it is the weaker or the stronger power that is in error.
Now, it happens with the Kobali that if sufficient pressure is applied I think they can be compelled to negotiate; this isn't a Borg situation where the possibility of individuals changing their minds is nonexistent. AND I think viable, consensual alternatives can be worked out. I'd be pleased with a solution where volunteers willed their bodies to the Kobali, and I can see some constituencies with reasons to be interested IMO.
So I would prefer a diplomatic solution in this case, but IMO if stopping flagrant sentient rights abuses would get me called an "imperialist," I'd be much less concerned with being insulted than I would with the lives I could save from torture.
Well said. This basically sums up the issue, although I would add that Kobali culture accepts and relies upon emotional and domestic abuse, which is at least to me a cause for great anger.
There's one thing I just thought of; the whole reason the Kobali started using Vaadwaur corpes is becasue they had no way to grow their population and could barely sustain the population with the reincarnation method.
Why doesn't the Federation give them cloning technology? I realise cloning is illegal in the Federation (as it falls under genetic engineering) but I'm sure the Federation Council would see the Kobali as a special case - especially since it may be the lynchpin in preventing the genocide of an entire race. To not do so would be as morally depraved as the Kobali using Vaadwaur corpses (again, I do not agree with the Kobali using the corpses of other races, I only understand why they might find it acceptable).
well lest just go get assimilated by the borg because no right to judge alien species.
this really is a great example of why im disgusted by hypocritical federation pretentiousness.
they did it to themselves, and now they are acting like codifying being body snatchers into their culture, absolves them from the reactions they get.
That's not my point. I completely respect the Vaadwaurs' reaction - my point is that unless you are in anyway affected by that culture (like in the case of the Borg), you have no right to judge it.
And I have no quarrels with the argument that the Borg are bad because they're trying to assimilate other species - I contest the idea that just being a collective hive makes them evil.
If the Federation ignored the Kobali's situation, I wouldn't see a problem with it - it is not the Federation's place to interfere. However, the Federation is a human-dominated entity (or at least dominated by species with similar ethics), so they're going to do what comes naturally; act like a "grievously savage child race" and stick their sanctimonious boot in other peoples' doors.
(I enjoyed the Purity Foundry series, you may be able to guess.)
Do I need to point out the Prime Directive? Starfleet Officers have no right to judge the cultures of alien species. And, personally, the kind of disgust the Kobali bring in players seems somewhat arrogant; it's not our way, but that doesn't make it the wrong way.
I know of many times when Starfleet personnel have decided on strong ethical grounds to ignore it.
The hell with the Prime Directive, especially if you're playing as a Klingon or Romulan. This is exactly the "fig leaf for moral cowardice" abuse of the PD I most despise.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Kobalis were created as a moral plotpoint to make the viewer question their own ideals.
If you had command of Voyager, would you have helped them ?
This is the question they wanted you to ask yourself.
A Kobayashi Maru of sorts for the viewers.
(...)
However, the Kobali seem to be so used to subterfuge and underhanded dealings in order to reproduce that they've lost the ability to just honestly ask for what they want.
Best summary I've read thus far.
In-game, I found the Kobali to be distasteful for their actions with the Vaadwaur; Kestrel and others within Cryptic get major kudos for storytelling which gave more *depth* to STO. I hope we'll see another featured episode or storyline which follows "Dust to Dust" -- and holds the Kobali more accountable for their practices.
After all, some of our Captains are doing an Officer Exchange Program with the Kobali now ("Dust to Dust"). And flying Kobali ships, too.
The hell with the Prime Directive, especially if you're playing as a Klingon or Romulan. This is exactly the "fig leaf for moral cowardice" abuse of the PD I most despise.
There are at least two examples I can think of where an advanced civilisation imposing their ideals on a smaller nation has been disastrous in our own history; Post-WWI Germany and Post-2004 Iraq. As Picard pointed out in a TNG episode, it is for exactly that reason that the Prime Directive exists.
Also, to counter your B5 quote, allow me:
Babylon 5
"Who says!? Who says our way's right and theirs' is wrong?!"
I don't think it is productive to set up examples that would be against the TOS to actually debate (IRL politics). Maybe select something fictional that actually has a chance of being discussed without getting anyone in trouble?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I don't think it is productive to set up examples that would be against the TOS to actually debate (IRL politics). Maybe select something fictional that actually has a chance of being discussed without getting anyone in trouble?
Cardassian occupation of Bajor. (no offense, gulberat--it isn't the fault of the Cardassian people that their leaders were evil TRIBBLE)
Prime Directive gets called, hundreds of millions of Bajorans died, and that's only the ones who were officially counted.
Clear failing of the PD.
The way I see it, there are two ways to go here. The right way (browbeat the Kobali into observing sentient rights conventions) and the anal bureaucrat way (call extreme PD and leave the Kobali to the Vaadwaur). I vote the former.
There are at least two examples I can think of where an advanced civilisation imposing their ideals on a smaller nation has been disastrous in our own history; Post-WWI Germany and Post-2004 Iraq. As Picard pointed out in a TNG episode, it is for exactly that reason that the Prime Directive exists.
Please go take a history class. The situation in post-WWI Germany had absolutely nothing to do with the Allies trying to impose their ideals on Germany and everything to do with them intentionally trying to punish Germany for causing the war* by driving them into bankruptcy with reparations payments. And Iraq is a classic example of starting a war on eminently specious grounds (basically, the Bush Administration just wanted to take over Iraq, period, no matter what the pretext) and then not having a well-thought-out plan for what to do afterwards. Neither one supports your argument.
/totallynotgettingintoapoliticaldebate
*Which was bull**** of the highest order, by the way. The Allies had as much culpability as anyone else.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
The Hazari are specifically and repeatedly established as dependably loyal bounty hunters and mercs. If you pay them, they will do whatever it takes to do what you want. That's maybe not strictly Federation member material, but the Klingons and Romulans would love that attitude, and they'd make great subcontractors anyway. I certainly don't recall that. And let's face it, Hirogen have never to my knowledge just surprise-attacked their prey. They seem to find it important to let their prey know that they're part of a hunt. I'm going to fault Cryptic for writing if what you say is true.
Honestly the Hazari remind me of Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. They'll hold scrupulously to the letter of their contract; it's the spirit you've got to worry about. (As an aside, I was disappointed that when I played "Alliances" on my Romulan there wasn't an option to give the Hazari guy an impressed, "Well played.")
They're no worse than realistically-played Ferengi, and less annoying. In fact, now that I think about it, remember the 16th and 17th Rules of Acquisition? The Hazari would hate the Ferengi because they will go back on a deal if it suits them, contract be damned.
I interpreted that as that particular fellow not being affiliated with the Delta Alliance. The Hirogen are at least as nomadic and clannish as the Kazon if not more so, and only three of about sixteen Kazon clans are Alliance members. Likewise we've got one particular Hirogen pack as allies. Others stayed independent, and another even made it to the Beta Quadrant at some point and shacked up with Sela.
He talked to you before attacking you because the Delta Alliance is powerful enough to be wary of, which is rather the entire point of a mutual defense pact. Unfortunately there weren't enough ships present to make the deterrent strong enough for him to back off altogether; he figured he could get in, steal the Samsar, and get out before reinforcements arrived.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
As regards their current conduct - the constant lies and spin-doctoring - now, that's a whole other issue.
The Kobali have proven themselves deceitful, time and again. They are not interested in respecting the rights or the customs of others, but they absolutely demand respect for themselves. The co-option of enemy battlefield casualties - and their insistence that there's nothing wrong with this, it's all done out of highly moral motives, they love their Vaadwaur zombie soldiers unconditionally - shows just how far they're prepared to go.
Holding onto the Vaadwaur stasis pods, at this stage, is utterly indefensible... I'm not sure it ever was defensible, although you could argue that keeping Vaadwaur numbers as low as possible makes sense, while they're waging war with the rest of the quadrant. But letting the Kobali keep them? "Oh, we only convert Vaadwaur whose stasis pods have already failed" - yeah, right. Given the Kobali's track record to date, would you trust them to do essential servicing and maintenance on those pods?
On any sort of moral level, the Vaadwaur are in the right to try and take their people back from the Kobali. (The rest of the Vaadwaur agenda, now, that's a problem.) The Prime Directive cuts both ways in this situation - it may be part of the Kobali culture to assimilate handy corpses, but it's equally part of Vaadwaur culture not to get assimilated.
All my characters outrank that idiot Benzite, and my KDF and Romulan characters don't necessarily care about any interpretation of the Prime Directive. For that matter, my Starfleet characters all have ambassadorial status, too. Given a free hand, I would be shipping that Benzite back to the Alpha Quadrant, to take up duties more fitting to her abilities - I'm sure Ensign Rraak could train her up to be his assistant, given time - and renegotiating with the Kobali and the Vaadwaur on the basis that a) the Vaadwaur can have their people back once they prove they can get along with others, and b) the Kobali can practice their methods of reproduction strictly on a basis of informed consent. If someone wills their body to the Kobali, or the next of kin give adequate permission, fine. Otherwise, no.
(Can you imagine the courage of those Vaadwaur soldiers on Kobali Prime? Knowing that if they fall, they won't just die, but will die and come back as their own worst enemies? Say what you like about the Vaadwaur - and there is plenty to say against them, even without Gaul and the bluegills - but they have sure as heck got some guts!)
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I'm not a fan of the methods they employ:
1-Lack of consent.
2-Holding the newly re-birthed against their will. And not accepting the newly re-birthed opinion until it matches their own. Newly re-birthed run away and are tracked down and dragged back to Kobali or held until convinced or conditioned.
Other niggles: First life Memory treatment: For a group that claims not to remember (or rather, forgets about) much about their former lives as reasons for them being special; it seems that some remember much more than others. I understand that much of this was done for story reasons, but it opens inconsistencies (Kim forgets his family during the episode but Lyndsay Ballard, now Jhetleya, remembers her relationship with Kim?) and plot holes. Better to have all former memory lost. I think if the re-birthed remember, or even if they do not, they should be free to choose.
My solution on my ship:
The Rebirth (Kobali) Boffs I picked up are asylumees on my ship. While thankful for another chance at life; they both are horrified with how other Kobali have acted (re-birthing, holding people on Kobali Prime against their will, etc.), retain memories of their first lives, and could not openly disagree on Kobali Prime. They are not interested in participating in that society any longer (they are outfitted in TOS uniforms) or at this moment. On my ship they are working with telepaths, (Vulcans, Dr. Sibak's offspring, etc) and meditative practices to uncover memories of their first life as a act of self discovery. I refer to them as TRIBBLE(Original Society/Culture)-Kobali, in this case Deltan-Kobali and Cravic-Kobali, maybe even Deltan-K and Cravic-K.
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You just inspired me. Thank you.
This is going to be fun.
Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm still working out stories, histories, and individual nuances for the BOFF's.
At least Commander Jarok is no longer alone in incompetent starship captains in STO. She almost loses the flagship of the Rom Republic, a damn Scimitar-class, to a Vaadwaur Boarding Party III. And no, the Super Vaadwaur Officer is not that big a threat. It took Picard and Riker a few high powered Phaser shots to blast one person possessed by a bluegill.
Between assuming that not only the entire Lleiset crew, but the player and his away team as well, are complete idiots, and assuming that this is due to a difference in the way Vaadwaur physiology interacts with bluegills, I'd very easily choose the latter.
As for the Samsar, there was nobody on the bridge. If he could beam to the bridge, which, IIRC, he did, then he could lock down the entire ship, preventing the isolated repair teams from stopping him within the relatively short period during which the rest of the mission takes place.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Yeah, calling BS on that. What kind of idiot leaves a mission-critical area like the bridge of a ship completely unmanned at any time?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Given the Kobali species's complete and utter lack of military effectiveness, I'm not surprised in the least.
My 2 pence.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
While I don't have a problem with the IDEA of rebirth per se, the Kobali do not respect consent and use a method that clearly violates sentient rights. Also, they are a textbook example of domestic abuse on a species-wide scale. And they lie like dogs. And they treat sentient rights as optional.
Calling Prime Directive here is like watching a kid slowly torture a cat to death and walking away because we have no right to judge those actions. Or, alternatively, Jellico watching Picard be tortured and brainwashed by Gul Madred and saying "ah, TRIBBLE it, that's the Cardassian way, Prime Directive".
That's also an option. I think that mission was meant to imply that the bluegills as a whole are a Solanae creation, though.
*shrugs* I think it said something like that in the dialogue. Doesn't mean I don't agree with your second sentence. :P
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Those examples don't really apply. Who's to say what sentient rights are? The main problem with interstellar law in Star Trek is that it isn't valid outside the Alpha Quadrant. No one in the Delta Quadrant signed the Khitomer Accords - it doesn't apply to them. That child is still the parent's responsibility - the Kobali aren't the Federation's. You're trying to argue international politics and xenoculture with domestic ethics.
Do I agree with the Kobali using Vaadwaur corpses? No, but it isn't the Federation's right to tell them they're wrong. That's just superpower syndrome - the idea that the strong/advanced have the right to dictate to the small, like Britain in the 1800s or the USA since the 1950s.
Back on topic, my point is that we have no right to condemn the Kobali for using Vaadwaur corpses - interstellar law doesn't apply in Delta Quadrant, and I should point out that while what the Kobali do with the Vaadwaur corpses is immoral in my opinion, there are no agreements between the Vaadwaur and the Kobali about returning the dead like we have in real life. As far as the Kobali are concerned, the corpses are empty shells.
That said, I doubt the Kobali are going to agree to return Vaadwaur corpses unless the Vaadwaur ended the assault on Kobali Prime, which won't happen because the Vaadwaur are incensed at their dead being used as bodies for the Kobali.
In short, I agree that the Kobali are doing wrong by human standards, but that doesn't mean we have the right to say they're doing wrong by some universal law. It's a bit like a christian telling an athiest he's doing wrong by not going to church.
EDIT: I should also note that you guys do realise the whole point of the OP's post was to start a flame war, right?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The problem is that not only are we allied with people who are morally abhorrent to us against people who, minus their scumbag leaders, aren't any worse than some of our current allies. And we don't get a choice in the matter.
We could debate moral relativism for forever and a day, but frankly it's inherently fallacious (for long and complicated reasons), and frankly I'm tired of this entire quite reasonable but rehashed-into-oblivion debate anyway.
Agreed. Moral relativism is one of those topics which is philosophical, not idealogical.
And you are right, politically it makes no sense for the Federation to be actively supporting the Kobali aside from preventing genocide.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
However, if someone's *actions* are harming others, then IMO force is justified to make those actions stop by use of a reasonable amount of force if negotiation fails. I don't care if the person committing murder is this or that type of human, or a Bajoran, or a Cardassian, or a Vaadwaur, or a Kobali. Some things *are* absolutes, whether it is the weaker or the stronger power that is in error.
Now, it happens with the Kobali that if sufficient pressure is applied I think they can be compelled to negotiate; this isn't a Borg situation where the possibility of individuals changing their minds is nonexistent. AND I think viable, consensual alternatives can be worked out. I'd be pleased with a solution where volunteers willed their bodies to the Kobali, and I can see some constituencies with reasons to be interested IMO.
So I would prefer a diplomatic solution in this case, but IMO if stopping flagrant sentient rights abuses would get me called an "imperialist," I'd be much less concerned with being insulted than I would with the lives I could save from torture.
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Well said. This basically sums up the issue, although I would add that Kobali culture accepts and relies upon emotional and domestic abuse, which is at least to me a cause for great anger.
Why doesn't the Federation give them cloning technology? I realise cloning is illegal in the Federation (as it falls under genetic engineering) but I'm sure the Federation Council would see the Kobali as a special case - especially since it may be the lynchpin in preventing the genocide of an entire race. To not do so would be as morally depraved as the Kobali using Vaadwaur corpses (again, I do not agree with the Kobali using the corpses of other races, I only understand why they might find it acceptable).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That's not my point. I completely respect the Vaadwaurs' reaction - my point is that unless you are in anyway affected by that culture (like in the case of the Borg), you have no right to judge it.
And I have no quarrels with the argument that the Borg are bad because they're trying to assimilate other species - I contest the idea that just being a collective hive makes them evil.
If the Federation ignored the Kobali's situation, I wouldn't see a problem with it - it is not the Federation's place to interfere. However, the Federation is a human-dominated entity (or at least dominated by species with similar ethics), so they're going to do what comes naturally; act like a "grievously savage child race" and stick their sanctimonious boot in other peoples' doors.
(I enjoyed the Purity Foundry series, you may be able to guess.)
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The hell with the Prime Directive, especially if you're playing as a Klingon or Romulan. This is exactly the "fig leaf for moral cowardice" abuse of the PD I most despise.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
If you had command of Voyager, would you have helped them ?
This is the question they wanted you to ask yourself.
A Kobayashi Maru of sorts for the viewers.
In-game, I found the Kobali to be distasteful for their actions with the Vaadwaur; Kestrel and others within Cryptic get major kudos for storytelling which gave more *depth* to STO. I hope we'll see another featured episode or storyline which follows "Dust to Dust" -- and holds the Kobali more accountable for their practices.
After all, some of our Captains are doing an Officer Exchange Program with the Kobali now ("Dust to Dust"). And flying Kobali ships, too.
There are at least two examples I can think of where an advanced civilisation imposing their ideals on a smaller nation has been disastrous in our own history; Post-WWI Germany and Post-2004 Iraq. As Picard pointed out in a TNG episode, it is for exactly that reason that the Prime Directive exists.
Also, to counter your B5 quote, allow me:
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
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Cardassian occupation of Bajor. (no offense, gulberat--it isn't the fault of the Cardassian people that their leaders were evil TRIBBLE)
Prime Directive gets called, hundreds of millions of Bajorans died, and that's only the ones who were officially counted.
Clear failing of the PD.
The way I see it, there are two ways to go here. The right way (browbeat the Kobali into observing sentient rights conventions) and the anal bureaucrat way (call extreme PD and leave the Kobali to the Vaadwaur). I vote the former.
/totallynotgettingintoapoliticaldebate
*Which was bull**** of the highest order, by the way. The Allies had as much culpability as anyone else.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/