They genuinely care about the people they resurrect.
Of the various Delta Quadrant races, they are among the more willing to treat other species well.
But on the other...
They don't obtain consent from those they resurrect.
They don't obtain consent from the next of kin of those they resurrect.
They're dishonest.
Having taken some emergency medical training, I can tell you that those first two points on the second list are big no-no's. You must obtain consent to begin treatment, either from the patient or from a representative.
It gets trickier when the patient is unresponsive or not capable of making an informed decision (or, in the Kobali's case, dead) and there is no representative present. Unless you have proof otherwise, such as a do not resuscitate order on the patient's person, you are granted "implied consent." This means that you are to operate under the assumption that if the patient were responsive, they would give you permission to save their life. After all, if you save them when they don't want to be saved, they don't really lose much, whereas if you don't save them when they wanted to be saved, they're out of luck big-time.
So, expanding that analogy to resurrection, there's no reason the kobali shouldn't resurrect corpses they acquire. The problem is that they do not make sufficient attempt to attain consent: they do not properly explain to the newly resurrected person what has happened, what will happen, and what his options are, they just keep badgering the person that "you're not Harry Kim any more, you're Ketan the kobali."
Also, given that corpses are not in immediate danger of becoming impossible to resurrect, the kobali have ample opportunity to seek the consent of the deceased's representatives. Again, taking the example of Harry Kim, the living Kim was within a couple kilometers of where the body was held. They should have contacted him and asked "If you were in this position, would you want to be resurrected?"* Alternately, get a Federation ship to relay a message to Kim's family back in the Alpha Quadrant.
So there's nothing wrong with the act of resurrection, at least under the ethical system used for Earth's nearest analogy. The failure to give a choice is where they go wrong. The give someone another opportunity to live is good, but they don't also grant the necessary freedom to choose that goes with it.
In my eyes, the kobali are like children. They think what they're doing is good, and in some ways it is, but they're not going about it the right way.
The reason that the Federation is involved is because the kobali are under threat of genocide from the vadwaar, who are an enemy of the Federation. While the kobali are behavin in an ethically dubious manner, the vadwaar are overtly unethical in attempting genocide. In this instance it is right for the Federation to intervene on behalf of the kobali despite the flaws of their practice. Additionally, the vadwaar is an enemy of all the Delta Quadrant races and the Delta Alliance, so there's further impetus. Add to this that the vadwaar may be under Iconian influence, so who knows if there's a hidden motive behind attacking the kobali, and there's a whole heap of reasons to step in.
That being said, the proper course of action would probably be for the Federation would also be right to return the vadwaar in stasis to their awakened kin, overriding the protests of the kobali if need be. After all, the kobali have no right to the vadwaar within the temple, living or dead.
The kobali's ethic are dubious, but they seem to be receptive to tutelage from the more mature races of the Alliance. So hating the kobali is not really productive. A better stance would be that the kobali must be taught to do better... but that gets into the whole stupid Prime Directive.
So it's complicated.
As a bit of an aside, I want to mention this: the kobali don't fit the typical black and white good vs. evil spectrum typical in the Star Trek Online storylines. We have an ally who is suffering and who wants to do good things, but what they think is good differs from what some other races think is good, and they're not handling it very well. This is, in my opinion, a good thing--it's more like Trek as we know it from the TV shows. The writers are listening to us! So feel free to dislike the kobali, but I think we should support the writers.
*Note that I'm not suggesting they ask him "should he be resurrected?" That's a different question. Present Harry Kim does not, in my opinion, have a right to decide whether Ketan should be resuscitated or not: he can only decide if Ketan would want to be resurrected.
you wake up you don't know where you are or why your there you don't regonize anyone in the room there female and male calling son or daughter. you don't even know them but you last remember being on a ship with friends and family you look in a mirror and bam it hits you what the hell is going on because that is not you. The Female and male are trying to calm you down and all you can think is what going on here then they tell you the bad new you have been dead for sometime now but we will accept you so you can live with us now.
Right........
ok since your don't see nothing wrong with way of life how about we help them out with there population problem anyone on death row we can offer them a second chance to be reborn as kobali, Mass murders, serial killers, phychopaths, mental challenge inmates on death row. im sure they won't come back to earth and do any harm anyone if there stuck in the delta Quadrant. oh right I almost forgot they get heighten senses, increased intel, and here is new one they get to speak a new language. wow amazing. Trade offs
The only con is that I can never had have kids unless I steal a corpse.
A chance a new life or a second chance to live a lie?
I think I will take my chances at RIP. at least I don't have to remember what my past life was like.
Based on the things they've said, like "Don't judge us", and how hard they work to protect their reproduction is I think they know they're operating on the wrong side of ethics. They don't want to do it, but they need to in order to survive as a race. We know so little about them, and most assume they did this to themselves. What if 'messing with forces beyond their control' meant pissing off a Q-like being? What if the Kobali are actually the very virus that creates them, and this is something lost to their ancient lore?
It seems they work hard to balance their deeds, being peaceful philanthropists when not stealing the dead. They worry about how people will react to their methods (looking at how the Vaadwaur and the posts in this very forum, rightly so) and so operate in secret. They love and protect their own family like any other sentient race.
As for forcing the newly reborn to stay in the area, remember that as time passes the memories and talents of the original body melt away. They become mentally malleable. The Kobali see this as a 'child-like' state. If your toddler ran to someone else in the grocery store and started screaming 'no' every time you tried to take them home, do you let the stranger just keep them?
I'm actually turning my captain into a Kobali atm. Earned the uniform, toyed with the look in the tailor (Alien), and almost have the ship unlocked. Even planning on doing a full bridge crew of Kobali (Alien Boffs). Hopefully I don't get attacked on the ESD for it!
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
I'm actually turning my captain into a Kobali atm. Earned the uniform, toyed with the look in the tailor (Alien), and almost have the ship unlocked. Even planning on doing a full bridge crew of Kobali (Alien Boffs). Hopefully I don't get attacked on the ESD for it!
On ESD? the heart of the loving and tolerant Federation? Full of peace and love I'm sure you'll be fine , nobody there harbors irrational hatred of difference
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
That being said, the proper course of action would probably be for the Federation would also be right to return the vadwaar in stasis to their awakened kin, overriding the protests of the kobali if need be. After all, the kobali have no right to the vadwaar within the temple, living or dead.
This is the main thing for me, besides the lying - the Kobali are certainly more ambiguous than usual and I like that, but I'm not sure why the temple tubes weren't at least put into custody of people who probably aren't going to use them.
Also, Alex, I thought your analysis was well put together and I generally agree with it.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
@Alex: The problem with your analysis is that all the Vaadwaurs' attempts to wipe out the Kobali happened while Gaul and the bluegills were in charge. Minus that collection of @ssholes, the Vaadwaur really aren't objectively any worse than the Klingons, which as I previously noted changes the political calculus dramatically. The Kobali have nothing to offer the Alliance that the Vaadwaur can't provide in greater quantity and quality and with us having cleaner consciences.
I vote we dump our abusive Kobali boyfriends and bring the Vaads into the Alliance.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
@Alex: The problem with your analysis is that all the Vaadwaurs' attempts to wipe out the Kobali happened while Gaul and the bluegills were in charge. Minus that collection of @ssholes, the Vaadwaur really aren't objectively any worse than the Klingons, which as I previously noted changes the political calculus dramatically. The Kobali have nothing to offer the Alliance that the Vaadwaur can't provide in greater quantity and with us having cleaner consciences.
I vote we dump our abusive Kobali boyfriends and bring the Vaads into the Alliance.
Nothing in those ancient console redeems the Vaadwuar
Officials of the time took a civilian shelter and intentionally stuffed it with soldier stock for war , cutting down on teachers and non military assets to do so
I'd rather make a pact with body snatchers than Corpse making war mongers
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
On ESD? the heart of the loving and tolerant Federation? Full of peace and love I'm sure you'll be fine , nobody there harbors irrational hatred of difference
Except me muahahahahaha I tolerate all lifeforms and respect them.. However Brain hungry corpses may find little mercy with my crew..
Nothing in those ancient console redeems the Vaadwuar
Officials of the time took a civilian shelter and intentionally stuffed it with soldier stock for war , cutting down on teachers and non military assets to do so
Guess what severely militaristic societies tend to do? That's right: devalue non-war-related skillsets. Now, where have we seen that before? Oh, right, our current allies, the Klingons.
I'd rather make a pact with body snatchers than Corpse making war mongers
So clearly we should kick the Klingons out of the alliance for being corpse-making warmongers. :rolleyes:
I'd rather have honest warmongers than dishonest, emotionally abusive cultists.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
On the subject of dealing with the Vaadwaur...I find myself sorely tempted (as if I had the time to write it!) to write a non-Masterverse vignette that would bring Berat and Eldex face to face. The idea of a Cardassian and Vaadwaur having to work together is really compelling to me, and was from the second I imagined Eldex doing a double take when he first comes close to the man he's trapped in that scaffolding and sees just what a Cardassian is like. My bet is he's never seen another therapsid species before...
Do this. Do this. Do this right now an I and all my friends will love you forever.
I may have missed a comment in all the chatter, but one thing strongly puzzles me: Kobali have a medical science superior to the Federation, capable of reanimating the dead and completely restructuring their DNA into Kobali, creating new internal organs and arrangements... yet they completely fail at fixing their natural reproductive systems?
I don't think the Feds should have been so "respectful" of Klingon behavior, but unfortunately they missed their chance to bring them to their knees after Praxis. That should've been the time to force them to much stronger terms that put an end to their ways of conquest (similar to the terms Cardassia was put under in STO after the Dominion War). So now we're stuck.
As far as I am concerned both should be chastised severely for what they have done.
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I don't have to counter those because you're making a strawman argument. I was refuting the OP's assertion that it's not the Kobalis' fault they can't reproduce sexually. By the Kobalis' own admission, it is their fault.
It's that simple.
your not answering the point directly, and if youre just trying to pull hairs for the hell of it to avoid answering it then thats your problem. you got nothing as a counter as i thought. :rolleyes:
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Just FYI, I'm novelizing "Dust to Dust" like I did "Surface Tension" and I'm going to put it on the forum. In my version, Kobali Kim, being rightfully horrified by having his identity stripped from him slowly, requests assisted suicide.
Which is frankly how any rational person would react in that situation; you're having your mind, your very being, slowly overwritten by an alien force, and you can do nothing but watch.
It's like Borg assimilation, only slower.
Which is the number-1 reason why the Kobali are disgusting. Their reproductive process is a crime against sentient life.
your not answering the point directly, and if youre just trying to pull hairs for the hell of it to avoid answering it then thats your problem. you got nothing as a counter as i thought. :rolleyes:
I answered the point directly already; you chose to ignore it. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, logic dictates that we assume the Kobali are telling the truth (even though they're liars in geopolitics, they've never made any bones about their biology). You are the one claiming otherwise, ergo burden of proof falls to you.
Nice try.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
@Alex: The problem with your analysis is that all the Vaadwaurs' attempts to wipe out the Kobali happened while Gaul and the bluegills were in charge. Minus that collection of @ssholes, the Vaadwaur really aren't objectively any worse than the Klingons, which as I previously noted changes the political calculus dramatically. The Kobali have nothing to offer the Alliance that the Vaadwaur can't provide in greater quantity and quality and with us having cleaner consciences.
I vote we dump our abusive Kobali boyfriends and bring the Vaads into the Alliance.
Yes, there has been a big power shift. I can't really say exactly what the current situation is (time in STO is nebulous when you've got multiple side-by-side storylines you can play in any order), but I get the impression that most of the Kobali storyline is set before Gaul is defeated. That's why we're there fighting vadwaar. Dust to Dust is a clear exception--it happens after Gaul's defeat. It might be harder to justify coming to the Kobali's defense in that particular instance.
The Kobali don't have that much to offer the Alliance, but we're effectively the "galactic policemen." The eyes of the Delta Quadrant are upon us, and we must be consistent in how we treat the people there. We can't exactly just dump the kobali to fend for themselves now that they serve no real purpose.
You might argue that most species in the Delta Quadrant hate and fear the kobali, so assisting them would not get us on anyone's good side. This is true, but the Federation is less about being liked and more about being moral. The kobali need assistance, and we can provide it, so we do. In the big scheme of things, the kobali aren't that important, but how we treat them is. The alliance with the kobali is less about what they can do for us, and more about what we can do for them.
Just FYI, I'm novelizing "Dust to Dust" like I did "Surface Tension" and I'm going to put it on the forum. In my version, Kobali Kim, being rightfully horrified by having his identity stripped from him slowly, requests assisted suicide.
Which is frankly how any rational person would react in that situation; you're having your mind, your very being, slowly overwritten by an alien force, and you can do nothing but watch.
It's like Borg assimilation, only slower.
Which is the number-1 reason why the Kobali are disgusting. Their reproductive process is a crime against sentient life.
Sure, there's reason to be horrified, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong about resurrecting someone. The moral quandaries are over the person's ability to choose what happens to their remains, and whether they want to be kobali. You make a good comparison to borg assimilation, but in this instance there's opportunity to give the person a choice (at least in the cases where they remember their old life). It's just that the kobali don't handle it very well.
But their failure to handle it well is a correctable problem. As I said previously, the kobali are behaving like children. The way to fix that is to model and/or enforce a higher standard of ethics. Shunning them is only going to encourage them to say "you just don't understand us" and retreat into isolation and behavioral self-reinforcement.
I would take issue with the assertion that "any rational person" would react to the situation by requesting suicide. That depends entirely on the person, which brings us back to my point that a lot of these problems are problems in how the kobali accomplish the process, not the process itself. A person might permit the process for the same reason they would become an organ donor--they can't be "alive" any more, so why not let "someone else" benefit from their body?
I haven't seen any evidence that the process is painful or tantamount to torture as some people have asserted. It's just frightening and confusing, and that can be alleviated with proper practice. Mind you, I haven't seen the Voyager episode where the kobali appear, so I could be wrong.
I may have missed a comment in all the chatter, but one thing strongly puzzles me: Kobali have a medical science superior to the Federation, capable of reanimating the dead and completely restructuring their DNA into Kobali, creating new internal organs and arrangements... yet they completely fail at fixing their natural reproductive systems?
"appeal to tradition".
declare it culture then let the weak minded fight amongst themselves as to why they are entitled to do what they want because "cultural acceptance" or whatever other platitudes someone wants to use to stifle clear thought.
There's a reason I'm pissed that my Romulan and Lethean have no opportunity to tell that Benzite to stick her Prime Directive where the sun don't shine. Hell, even my Bajoran isn't exactly thrilled about this. Eleya only follows the Prime Directive because she's required to, and she'll take any opportunity she can to subvert it just on general principles.
The Prime Directive has an admirable sentiment behind it but it's used to excuse moral cowardice way too often.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I would take issue with the assertion that "any rational person" would react to the situation by requesting suicide. That depends entirely on the person, which brings us back to my point that a lot of these problems are problems in how the kobali accomplish the process, not the process itself. A person might permit the process for the same reason they would become an organ donor--they can't be "alive" any more, so why not let "someone else" benefit from their body?
Also, for those who think the Vaadwaur would be a useful part of the alliance..... Isn't the purpose of the alliance to STOP THE VAADWAUR? Making the Vaadwaur a member seems a touch illogical.
Yes, there has been a big power shift. I can't really say exactly what the current situation is (time in STO is nebulous when you've got multiple side-by-side storylines you can play in any order), but I get the impression that most of the Kobali storyline is set before Gaul is defeated. That's why we're there fighting vadwaar. Dust to Dust is a clear exception--it happens after Gaul's defeat. It might be harder to justify coming to the Kobali's defense in that particular instance.
The Kobali don't have that much to offer the Alliance, but we're effectively the "galactic policemen." The eyes of the Delta Quadrant are upon us, and we must be consistent in how we treat the people there. We can't exactly just dump the kobali to fend for themselves now that they serve no real purpose.
You might argue that most species in the Delta Quadrant hate and fear the kobali, so assisting them would not get us on anyone's good side. This is true, but the Federation is less about being liked and more about being moral. The kobali need assistance, and we can provide it, so we do. In the big scheme of things, the kobali aren't that important, but how we treat them is. The alliance with the kobali is less about what they can do for us, and more about what we can do for them.
Yeah, well, for all practical purposes the Federation at large doesn't run on morality. It runs on enlightened self-interest. Individual captains and personnel might cite moral reasons but the bottom line is the state as a whole does good things to make itself look good and expand its hegemony, not for moral concerns no matter how justified. I look at Star Trek as a whole and I see more J. Michael Straczynski geopolitical realism than Gene Roddenberry idealism.
Under that frame kicking the Kobali out of the alliance for being dishonest, abusive dickheads still makes perfect sense. You can't have an ally you can't trust.
Also, for those who think the Vaadwaur would be a useful part of the alliance..... Isn't the purpose of the alliance to STOP THE VAADWAUR? Making the Vaadwaur a member seems a touch illogical.
NATO's original purpose was to stop the Soviets. The first and only time anybody actually invoked its "an attack on one is an attack on all" provision, it was against al-Qa'ida.
"Crime and politics, little girl. The situation is always ... fluid."
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yeah, well, for all practical purposes the Federation at large doesn't run on morality. It runs on enlightened self-interest. Individual captains and personnel might cite moral reasons but the bottom line is the state as a whole does good things to make itself look good and expand its hegemony, not for moral concerns no matter how justified. I look at Star Trek as a whole and I see more J. Michael Straczynski geopolitical realism than Gene Roddenberry idealism.
Under that frame kicking the Kobali out of the alliance for being dishonest, abusive dickheads still makes perfect sense. You can't have an ally you can't trust.
NATO's original purpose was to stop the Soviets. The first and only time anybody actually invoked its "an attack on one is an attack on all" provision, it was against al-Qa'ida.
"Crime and politics, little girl. The situation is always ... fluid."
Also illogical... If we kicked races out for being sneaky or underhanded half the members would be gone already. The Hazari have also lied to us from the start. The Kazon are only here out of self interest, and have no scruples about double-crossing us. The Hirogen are happy to attack their allies if they get bored... need I go on?
Sure, there's reason to be horrified, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong about resurrecting someone. The moral quandaries are over the person's ability to choose what happens to their remains, and whether they want to be kobali. You make a good comparison to borg assimilation, but in this instance there's opportunity to give the person a choice (at least in the cases where they remember their old life). It's just that the kobali don't handle it very well.
But their failure to handle it well is a correctable problem. As I said previously, the kobali are behaving like children. The way to fix that is to model and/or enforce a higher standard of ethics. Shunning them is only going to encourage them to say "you just don't understand us" and retreat into isolation and behavioral self-reinforcement.
I would take issue with the assertion that "any rational person" would react to the situation by requesting suicide. That depends entirely on the person, which brings us back to my point that a lot of these problems are problems in how the kobali accomplish the process, not the process itself. A person might permit the process for the same reason they would become an organ donor--they can't be "alive" any more, so why not let "someone else" benefit from their body?
I haven't seen any evidence that the process is painful or tantamount to torture as some people have asserted. It's just frightening and confusing, and that can be alleviated with proper practice. Mind you, I haven't seen the Voyager episode where the kobali appear, so I could be wrong.
This is altogether and intelligent, reasonable, and very well-thought-out post. Couple of points:
It's not the resurrection that's the problem. It's the resurrection without consent, followed by the obviously traumatic experience of having your identity slowly stripped from you by the people who claim to love you.
That is a hallmark of an incredibly abusive relationship, and nothing good can come from supporting a culture that accepts and supports such relationships.
While the process may be entirely painless, I cannot believe that. It's a major rewrite of the entire body in a matter of hours to days, which cannot be anything but painful. Hell, look at Rachel Connor (one of my minor characters). When she adapts to, say, being burned, it's agonizing. Having your DNA, biochemistry, and even skeletal anatomy reworked to that degree while you are still alive and awake is logically so unimaginably traumatic that I find it borderline unbelievable that Kobali Kim hasn't died from the shock yet.
On top of that, it's without consent, and as such is tantamount to r*pe.
As for "Ashes to Ashes", the gist of it is that Ballard remembers her life, leaves the Kobali, is pursued and attacked for leaving, tries to fit back in but fails because apparently the Federation can turn a lizard back into a human and cure incurable diseases but they can't fix the DNA of a person who is still testably Lyndsay Ballard, Voyager is attacked by the Kobali because Ballard refuses to go back, and Ballard ends up going back because it's Voyager and the writers needed a pat TV ending.
When starswordc and I get to that episode in our ongoing VOY rewrite, "The Mysterious Case of Neelix's Lungs" (available on FanFiction.net), we're going to call the Kobali and especially that emotionally-abusive f*ck Q'Tal out on their hypocrisy so hard they'll go flying into next f*cking week.
Also illogical... If we kicked races out for being sneaky or underhanded half the members would be gone already. The Hazari have also lied to us from the start. The Kazon are only here out of self interest, and have no scruples about double-crossing us. The Hirogen are happy to attack their allies if they get bored... need I go on?
1. The Hazari have been really clear from the start that they're mercs. We were dumb enough not to pay them from the start, so other people bought them. They've always been scrupulous about their contracts, even if they can be creative while drawing them up.
2. Can't disagree on the Kazon, it's a big writer fail to even allow those embarrassments to sentient life to still be a space power.
3. Gotta remember that the Hirogen are a varied bunch of packs. Some allied with Sela, some with the Alliance, and some are just floating around space looking for something to engage in a sacred hunt. You can't put all Hirogen in the same box.
Also illogical... If we kicked races out for being sneaky or underhanded half the members would be gone already. The Hazari have also lied to us from the start. The Kazon are only here out of self interest, and have no scruples about double-crossing us. The Hirogen are happy to attack their allies if they get bored... need I go on?
...the Klingons claim their vaunted "Empire" is incapable of reining in those "rogue Houses" that still attack Federation interests at every opportunity...
This "Alliance" already has members that can't be trusted. Hell, when it was first being founded, the representatives of the first three sides almost came to blows over the Jenolan Sphere until you calmed things down! Kicking the Kobali out just because they lie a lot would be more than a little hypocritical, methinks.
Also illogical... If we kicked races out for being sneaky or underhanded half the members would be gone already. The Hazari have also lied to us from the start. The Kazon are only here out of self interest, and have no scruples about double-crossing us. The Hirogen are happy to attack their allies if they get bored... need I go on?
...the Klingons claim their vaunted "Empire" is incapable of reining in those "rogue Houses" that still attack Federation interests at every opportunity...
And the Vaadwaur are racist, imperialist dickheads. That disqualifies them for membership ... how?
Hell, the Vaads are at least nationalist, disciplined militarists instead of clannish glory hounds. That makes them more reliable potential allies than either the Klingons or the Kazon. And they've got as much reason to hate the Iconians as anyone else.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
...spaaaaaaaaaace...
The Kobali are ambiguous.
On the one hand...
But on the other...
Having taken some emergency medical training, I can tell you that those first two points on the second list are big no-no's. You must obtain consent to begin treatment, either from the patient or from a representative.
It gets trickier when the patient is unresponsive or not capable of making an informed decision (or, in the Kobali's case, dead) and there is no representative present. Unless you have proof otherwise, such as a do not resuscitate order on the patient's person, you are granted "implied consent." This means that you are to operate under the assumption that if the patient were responsive, they would give you permission to save their life. After all, if you save them when they don't want to be saved, they don't really lose much, whereas if you don't save them when they wanted to be saved, they're out of luck big-time.
So, expanding that analogy to resurrection, there's no reason the kobali shouldn't resurrect corpses they acquire. The problem is that they do not make sufficient attempt to attain consent: they do not properly explain to the newly resurrected person what has happened, what will happen, and what his options are, they just keep badgering the person that "you're not Harry Kim any more, you're Ketan the kobali."
Also, given that corpses are not in immediate danger of becoming impossible to resurrect, the kobali have ample opportunity to seek the consent of the deceased's representatives. Again, taking the example of Harry Kim, the living Kim was within a couple kilometers of where the body was held. They should have contacted him and asked "If you were in this position, would you want to be resurrected?"* Alternately, get a Federation ship to relay a message to Kim's family back in the Alpha Quadrant.
So there's nothing wrong with the act of resurrection, at least under the ethical system used for Earth's nearest analogy. The failure to give a choice is where they go wrong. The give someone another opportunity to live is good, but they don't also grant the necessary freedom to choose that goes with it.
In my eyes, the kobali are like children. They think what they're doing is good, and in some ways it is, but they're not going about it the right way.
The reason that the Federation is involved is because the kobali are under threat of genocide from the vadwaar, who are an enemy of the Federation. While the kobali are behavin in an ethically dubious manner, the vadwaar are overtly unethical in attempting genocide. In this instance it is right for the Federation to intervene on behalf of the kobali despite the flaws of their practice. Additionally, the vadwaar is an enemy of all the Delta Quadrant races and the Delta Alliance, so there's further impetus. Add to this that the vadwaar may be under Iconian influence, so who knows if there's a hidden motive behind attacking the kobali, and there's a whole heap of reasons to step in.
That being said, the proper course of action would probably be for the Federation would also be right to return the vadwaar in stasis to their awakened kin, overriding the protests of the kobali if need be. After all, the kobali have no right to the vadwaar within the temple, living or dead.
The kobali's ethic are dubious, but they seem to be receptive to tutelage from the more mature races of the Alliance. So hating the kobali is not really productive. A better stance would be that the kobali must be taught to do better... but that gets into the whole stupid Prime Directive.
So it's complicated.
As a bit of an aside, I want to mention this: the kobali don't fit the typical black and white good vs. evil spectrum typical in the Star Trek Online storylines. We have an ally who is suffering and who wants to do good things, but what they think is good differs from what some other races think is good, and they're not handling it very well. This is, in my opinion, a good thing--it's more like Trek as we know it from the TV shows. The writers are listening to us! So feel free to dislike the kobali, but I think we should support the writers.
*Note that I'm not suggesting they ask him "should he be resurrected?" That's a different question. Present Harry Kim does not, in my opinion, have a right to decide whether Ketan should be resuscitated or not: he can only decide if Ketan would want to be resurrected.
Right........
ok since your don't see nothing wrong with way of life how about we help them out with there population problem anyone on death row we can offer them a second chance to be reborn as kobali, Mass murders, serial killers, phychopaths, mental challenge inmates on death row. im sure they won't come back to earth and do any harm anyone if there stuck in the delta Quadrant. oh right I almost forgot they get heighten senses, increased intel, and here is new one they get to speak a new language. wow amazing. Trade offs
The only con is that I can never had have kids unless I steal a corpse.
A chance a new life or a second chance to live a lie?
I think I will take my chances at RIP. at least I don't have to remember what my past life was like.
Based on the things they've said, like "Don't judge us", and how hard they work to protect their reproduction is I think they know they're operating on the wrong side of ethics. They don't want to do it, but they need to in order to survive as a race. We know so little about them, and most assume they did this to themselves. What if 'messing with forces beyond their control' meant pissing off a Q-like being? What if the Kobali are actually the very virus that creates them, and this is something lost to their ancient lore?
It seems they work hard to balance their deeds, being peaceful philanthropists when not stealing the dead. They worry about how people will react to their methods (looking at how the Vaadwaur and the posts in this very forum, rightly so) and so operate in secret. They love and protect their own family like any other sentient race.
As for forcing the newly reborn to stay in the area, remember that as time passes the memories and talents of the original body melt away. They become mentally malleable. The Kobali see this as a 'child-like' state. If your toddler ran to someone else in the grocery store and started screaming 'no' every time you tried to take them home, do you let the stranger just keep them?
I'm actually turning my captain into a Kobali atm. Earned the uniform, toyed with the look in the tailor (Alien), and almost have the ship unlocked. Even planning on doing a full bridge crew of Kobali (Alien Boffs). Hopefully I don't get attacked on the ESD for it!
Best response I've seen on this topic
I applaud a good objective discussion
Yeah, this forum needs a "Like" button.
On ESD? the heart of the loving and tolerant Federation? Full of peace and love I'm sure you'll be fine , nobody there harbors irrational hatred of difference
This is the main thing for me, besides the lying - the Kobali are certainly more ambiguous than usual and I like that, but I'm not sure why the temple tubes weren't at least put into custody of people who probably aren't going to use them.
Also, Alex, I thought your analysis was well put together and I generally agree with it.
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
I vote we dump our abusive Kobali boyfriends and bring the Vaads into the Alliance.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Nothing in those ancient console redeems the Vaadwuar
Officials of the time took a civilian shelter and intentionally stuffed it with soldier stock for war , cutting down on teachers and non military assets to do so
I'd rather make a pact with body snatchers than Corpse making war mongers
Except me muahahahahaha I tolerate all lifeforms and respect them.. However Brain hungry corpses may find little mercy with my crew..
So clearly we should kick the Klingons out of the alliance for being corpse-making warmongers. :rolleyes:
I'd rather have honest warmongers than dishonest, emotionally abusive cultists.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Do this. Do this. Do this right now an I and all my friends will love you forever.
Because that's just a great idea.
Kobali, you have some 'splaining to do.
As far as I am concerned both should be chastised severely for what they have done.
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your not answering the point directly, and if youre just trying to pull hairs for the hell of it to avoid answering it then thats your problem. you got nothing as a counter as i thought. :rolleyes:
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Which is frankly how any rational person would react in that situation; you're having your mind, your very being, slowly overwritten by an alien force, and you can do nothing but watch.
It's like Borg assimilation, only slower.
Which is the number-1 reason why the Kobali are disgusting. Their reproductive process is a crime against sentient life.
I answered the point directly already; you chose to ignore it. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, logic dictates that we assume the Kobali are telling the truth (even though they're liars in geopolitics, they've never made any bones about their biology). You are the one claiming otherwise, ergo burden of proof falls to you.
Nice try.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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The Kobali don't have that much to offer the Alliance, but we're effectively the "galactic policemen." The eyes of the Delta Quadrant are upon us, and we must be consistent in how we treat the people there. We can't exactly just dump the kobali to fend for themselves now that they serve no real purpose.
You might argue that most species in the Delta Quadrant hate and fear the kobali, so assisting them would not get us on anyone's good side. This is true, but the Federation is less about being liked and more about being moral. The kobali need assistance, and we can provide it, so we do. In the big scheme of things, the kobali aren't that important, but how we treat them is. The alliance with the kobali is less about what they can do for us, and more about what we can do for them. Sure, there's reason to be horrified, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong about resurrecting someone. The moral quandaries are over the person's ability to choose what happens to their remains, and whether they want to be kobali. You make a good comparison to borg assimilation, but in this instance there's opportunity to give the person a choice (at least in the cases where they remember their old life). It's just that the kobali don't handle it very well.
But their failure to handle it well is a correctable problem. As I said previously, the kobali are behaving like children. The way to fix that is to model and/or enforce a higher standard of ethics. Shunning them is only going to encourage them to say "you just don't understand us" and retreat into isolation and behavioral self-reinforcement.
I would take issue with the assertion that "any rational person" would react to the situation by requesting suicide. That depends entirely on the person, which brings us back to my point that a lot of these problems are problems in how the kobali accomplish the process, not the process itself. A person might permit the process for the same reason they would become an organ donor--they can't be "alive" any more, so why not let "someone else" benefit from their body?
I haven't seen any evidence that the process is painful or tantamount to torture as some people have asserted. It's just frightening and confusing, and that can be alleviated with proper practice. Mind you, I haven't seen the Voyager episode where the kobali appear, so I could be wrong. Ah, plot holes.
There's a reason I'm pissed that my Romulan and Lethean have no opportunity to tell that Benzite to stick her Prime Directive where the sun don't shine. Hell, even my Bajoran isn't exactly thrilled about this. Eleya only follows the Prime Directive because she's required to, and she'll take any opportunity she can to subvert it just on general principles.
The Prime Directive has an admirable sentiment behind it but it's used to excuse moral cowardice way too often.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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My character Tsin'xing
Under that frame kicking the Kobali out of the alliance for being dishonest, abusive dickheads still makes perfect sense. You can't have an ally you can't trust.
NATO's original purpose was to stop the Soviets. The first and only time anybody actually invoked its "an attack on one is an attack on all" provision, it was against al-Qa'ida.
"Crime and politics, little girl. The situation is always ... fluid."
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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My character Tsin'xing
It's not the resurrection that's the problem. It's the resurrection without consent, followed by the obviously traumatic experience of having your identity slowly stripped from you by the people who claim to love you.
That is a hallmark of an incredibly abusive relationship, and nothing good can come from supporting a culture that accepts and supports such relationships.
While the process may be entirely painless, I cannot believe that. It's a major rewrite of the entire body in a matter of hours to days, which cannot be anything but painful. Hell, look at Rachel Connor (one of my minor characters). When she adapts to, say, being burned, it's agonizing. Having your DNA, biochemistry, and even skeletal anatomy reworked to that degree while you are still alive and awake is logically so unimaginably traumatic that I find it borderline unbelievable that Kobali Kim hasn't died from the shock yet.
On top of that, it's without consent, and as such is tantamount to r*pe.
As for "Ashes to Ashes", the gist of it is that Ballard remembers her life, leaves the Kobali, is pursued and attacked for leaving, tries to fit back in but fails because apparently the Federation can turn a lizard back into a human and cure incurable diseases but they can't fix the DNA of a person who is still testably Lyndsay Ballard, Voyager is attacked by the Kobali because Ballard refuses to go back, and Ballard ends up going back because it's Voyager and the writers needed a pat TV ending.
When starswordc and I get to that episode in our ongoing VOY rewrite, "The Mysterious Case of Neelix's Lungs" (available on FanFiction.net), we're going to call the Kobali and especially that emotionally-abusive f*ck Q'Tal out on their hypocrisy so hard they'll go flying into next f*cking week.
1. The Hazari have been really clear from the start that they're mercs. We were dumb enough not to pay them from the start, so other people bought them. They've always been scrupulous about their contracts, even if they can be creative while drawing them up.
2. Can't disagree on the Kazon, it's a big writer fail to even allow those embarrassments to sentient life to still be a space power.
3. Gotta remember that the Hirogen are a varied bunch of packs. Some allied with Sela, some with the Alliance, and some are just floating around space looking for something to engage in a sacred hunt. You can't put all Hirogen in the same box.
This "Alliance" already has members that can't be trusted. Hell, when it was first being founded, the representatives of the first three sides almost came to blows over the Jenolan Sphere until you calmed things down! Kicking the Kobali out just because they lie a lot would be more than a little hypocritical, methinks.
Hell, the Vaads are at least nationalist, disciplined militarists instead of clannish glory hounds. That makes them more reliable potential allies than either the Klingons or the Kazon. And they've got as much reason to hate the Iconians as anyone else.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/