Why do people hate the Kobali?

lessley00

The Kobali are great, they are kind people and they fought to defend their world. As for their rebirth thing: its not their fault their d*cks dont work, they need to reproduce somehow. And people fussing about the stasis pods they rage quit: the Kobali promised not to rebirth anymore Vaadwaur. Im trying to create a Kobali toon I like them so much, and I am honored to have a Kobali on my bridge crew.

Post hate mail below

gulberat

I don't want them all dead or something, but I want all nonconsensual reproduction of theirs to stop and for them to be monitored closely to ensure this is the case. There are viable sources for them to go to for corpses such as if any Ferengi can be convinced to sell, or if any beings with religious beliefs in reincarnation would consider it appropriate to seek a next life they can have some knowledge of and control over in the current one. But IMO they must compete on the marketplace of ideas (and financial markets, in the Ferengi case) and if they fail in this, too bad.

Coupled with this if the Vaadwaur could somehow be talked into doing this instead of genocide or constant attacks on the Kobali, I would try to convince Eldex that the anti-Kobali vaccine (not the genocide weapon, but the injection the Vaadwaur administer to *themselves*) is highly marketable. Who knows--maybe he'd be a little less intractable if actually shown some respect for his position regarding the Kobali, which where he stands must look just as terrible as what the Bluegills have done to his people. That's the thing people don't get about Eldex: as he sees it, he has seen what amounts to a gang r*pe on his species, with two different species lining up for their turns. I apologize for the graphic imagery but that is what I think he sees and why he is so disgusted, angry, and unwilling to negotiate.

A Federation that didn't just unhesitatingly accept every Kobali excuse and flat-out take their side to the death...that could look a little better to Eldex than what we're made to do in game.

bberge1701

lessley00 wrote: »

As for their rebirth thing: its not their fault their d*cks dont work, they need to reproduce somehow.

Actually, it is their fault. They don't give details, but I'm fairly certain they mention some experiment gone wrong which caused their condition.

I would be much happier about the Kobali if we had any indication that they were working on a solution to this problem, or were even interested in a solution. They seem to have completely accepted this form of "reproduction", and expect everyone else to accept it as well.

noroblad

I hate the kobali because they have lied to me, constantly, since I encountered them. The deeper the story goes, the more things we find to have been hidden from us. At this point, I simply have no desire to help them nor any sympathy.

kintisho

I dont hate them, I just dont trust them.. The whole non consent is a problem yet one easily remedied.. Ask.. Many sentient beings would welcome the chance to live after death... Hire the Ferengi to broker deals with planets, shipping lanes for corpses and problem solved.. Still I would have a stalwart watch over their practices...

jonsills

The sapients who would want to live after death want their personalities to survive, which isn't going to work with the Kobali method. However, I can see a potential market - if they can outbid everyone else for Ferengi corpses, there's a market; Klingons boast that once the warrior is dead, the body is a shell, so they could make a tidy sum selling the shells; Humans are supposedly officially atheistic according to Roddenberry, so there would be no real reason not to turn their dead over in order to assist the Kobali; and so forth.

However, the Kobali seem to be so used to subterfuge and underhanded dealings in order to reproduce that they've lost the ability to just honestly ask for what they want.

mirrorchaos

ferengi have certain values and restrictions, i doubt even they are going to open business for shipping corpses around and i doubt the kobali have the economy to pull it off considering how new their homeworld is to them and how much destruction the vaadwaur have inflicted on them and their homeworld.

there is no profit in it at this point if your going completely pre-rom grand nagus type of ferengi. but ferengi are now required to file taxes, comply with regulations and such, get it all sanctioned by the governing body. i just dont see it happening unless its a rogue operation.

as for the kobali, there is nothing hard in proof to link the kobali to some accident that turned them to this. right now we know little of their whole way of life, and even if you have 30 episodes with the kobali, you still wouldnt be scratching the surface of the kobali way of life, culture, customs, religion, politics, recreation, if they attempted to couple in an attempt to reproduce or whatever else floats that boat, i actually dont care about the kobali, but if the cryptic devs are expanding on them even more, they may as well go the whole distance on it.

jonsills

There's nothing in canon stating definitively that they did it to themselves, but it's the only way it makes any sort of evolutionary sense. When you're the only sapient species on your planet, you can't evolve this "preying on the dead of other sapients" as your sole method of reproduction; it simply has no opportunity to come about.

The only way I can make this even vaguely plausible is if we assume that there was some sort of horrible biowarfare accident, probably thousands of years ago. Were I writing it, the weapon would have originally been intended to use the battlefield fallen to fill out the military's ranks, but evolved further than expected and rendered the Kobali themselves sterile. Now the only way to make more Kobali is to infect corpses with this retrovirus - and it will only work on non-Kobali, due to its basic design. And either the Kobali have lost the bioengineering genius they once had, or they just plain don't care that they've become a race of ghouls.

mirrorchaos

jonsills wrote: »

There's nothing in canon stating definitively that they did it to themselves, but it's the only way it makes any sort of evolutionary sense. When you're the only sapient species on your planet, you can't evolve this "preying on the dead of other sapients" as your sole method of reproduction; it simply has no opportunity to come about.

The only way I can make this even vaguely plausible is if we assume that there was some sort of horrible biowarfare accident, probably thousands of years ago. Were I writing it, the weapon would have originally been intended to use the battlefield fallen to fill out the military's ranks, but evolved further than expected and rendered the Kobali themselves sterile. Now the only way to make more Kobali is to infect corpses with this retrovirus - and it will only work on non-Kobali, due to its basic design. And either the Kobali have lost the bioengineering genius they once had, or they just plain don't care that they've become a race of ghouls.

maybe, but based on whats written on sto canon, they at first dont care to steal corpses, and then the vaadwaur attack, it frightens them out of their stuck ways and eventually they start to realize they cant hide who they are from themselves and everyone else any longer if jhet'leya was any indication the same with Q'nel and Hanchion. their secrets have cost them dearly and eventually the truth will come out about what happened to the kobali in sto canon. there is currently nothing to argue for or against until there is something solid to work with. i mean for all we know the kobali just dont want to do it with each other or is another secret, something of a major taboo so they steal bodies instead. nonsensical or not, its just as valid as yours.

starswordc

lessley00 wrote: »

The Kobali are great, they are kind people and they fought to defend their world. As for their rebirth thing: its not their fault their d*cks dont work, they need to reproduce somehow. And people fussing about the stasis pods they rage quit: the Kobali promised not to rebirth anymore Vaadwaur. Im trying to create a Kobali toon I like them so much, and I am honored to have a Kobali on my bridge crew.

Post hate mail below

You want me to make a list? Fine, I'll make a list.

• They're serial liars. You can't have an ally you can't trust.
• They've been using what amounts to Vaadwaur POWs and battlefield casualties to reproduce. And lying about doing it until they get caught at it.
• They give no thought to obtaining consent for the bodies they use in general; they just take. And then if, horror of horrors, you don't want to be a Kobali, they retrieve you by force and brainwash you until you like it.
• Above all, they don't see anything wrong with any of the above, instead insisting that they're a peaceful people averse to violence. So they're not only dishonest with everybody else, they're dishonest with themselves (i.e. they lack integrity).

And yes, it is their fault their dicks don't work. Pay attention to the story next time: they're clearly stated to have done it to themselves by "meddling with forces they could not control."

In comparison the Vaadwaur are really no worse in any substantive way than the Klingons or the TNG-era Romulans. They're just your basic violent racist imperialists, something the Federation has dealt with quite successfully on its own territory for centuries.

worffan101

The Kobali have murdered POWs and used them as breeding stock; hell, they started the war by taking Vaadwaur in stasis and desecrating them by using them to breed. That's no better than r*pe, and qualifies as a crime against sentient life at the sheer scale involved.

They have lied repeatedly to the Alliance, getting our people killed while offering nothing to us and repeatedly failing to comply with demands made by the Alliance for our continued support.

They have failed repeatedly to negotiate in good faith, engage in abusive relationship behavior on a regular basis, and generally treat sentient rights as optional. They are hypocritical, claiming to be noble pacifists while they kill prisoners and use them as breeding stock.

Oh, and they probably started this whole thing by f*cking up their own genomes.

Need I say more?

worffan101

starswordc wrote: »

You want me to make a list? Fine, I'll make a list.

• They're serial liars. You can't have an ally you can't trust.
• They've been using what amounts to Vaadwaur POWs and battlefield casualties to reproduce. And lying about doing it until they get caught at it.
• They give no thought to obtaining consent for the bodies they use in general; they just take. And then if, horror of horrors, you don't want to be a Kobali, they retrieve you by force and brainwash you until you like it.
• Above all, they don't see anything wrong with any of the above, instead insisting that they're a peaceful people averse to violence. So they're not only dishonest with everybody else, they're dishonest with themselves (i.e. they lack integrity).

And yes, it is their fault their dicks don't work. Pay attention to the story next time: they're clearly stated to have done it to themselves by "meddling with forces they could not control."

In comparison the Vaadwaur are really no worse in any substantive way than the Klingons or the TNG-era Romulans. They're just your basic violent racist imperialists, something the Federation has dealt with quite successfully on its own territory for centuries.

On point 3, that's actually domestic abuse (especially in the original episode) and emotional abuse. I am particularly enraged by that bit, having had some very bad personal experiences with domestic abuse, and knowing people who are and have been in abusive relationships. My roommate and I even had to take a friend's creepy ex into an unused classroom once and imply that if he so much as touched her again he would regret it. Then we called campus public safety when he tried to creep on her again.

Anyway. The Kobali are creepy TRIBBLE who treat sentient rights as optional. The Vaads? They're just WW2 Germany, and once you've killed Hitler--i.e. Gaul--the rest are just reasonable people who're monumentally p*ssed off. The Vaadwaur, besides Gaul's war crimes for the sake of war crimes, have proven to be very open, honest people, if brutal and at best morally gray. The Kobali have proven themselves to be lying scumbags time and time again.

I'll take the racist idiots any day.

rooster707

worffan101 wrote: »

The Kobali have murdered POWs and used them as breeding stock; hell, they started the war by taking Vaadwaur in stasis and desecrating them by using them to breed.

Wasn't there something in that mission that said the Kobali had only used the ones that were already dead?

mirrorchaos

starswordc wrote: »

And yes, it is their fault their dicks don't work. Pay attention to the story next time: they're clearly stated to have done it to themselves by "meddling with forces they could not control."

which is so vague that it doesnt even cover the point. so far you got nada. you need something more solid then that.

starswordc

mirrorchaos wrote: »

which is so vague that it doesnt even cover the point. so far you got nada. you need something more solid then that.

It may be vague but it's perfectly usable as a counterargument, considering it came from the Kobali themselves.

mirrorchaos

starswordc wrote: »

It may be vague but it's perfectly usable as a counterargument, considering it came from the Kobali themselves.

counterpoint for what? what exactly was it implying, in what context. meddling in forces they could not control? meddling who and whats forces? and how was it uncontrollable and how does any of it fit with the kobali?

you got answers for these as a counterpoint, im waiting.

worffan101

rooster707 wrote: »

Wasn't there something in that mission that said the Kobali had only used the ones that were already dead?

It was ambiguous at best, IIRC. And even then, I think that's a crime of some sort.

gulberat

On the subject of dealing with the Vaadwaur...I find myself sorely tempted (as if I had the time to write it!) to write a non-Masterverse vignette that would bring Berat and Eldex face to face. The idea of a Cardassian and Vaadwaur having to work together is really compelling to me, and was from the second I imagined Eldex doing a double take when he first comes close to the man he's trapped in that scaffolding and sees just what a Cardassian is like. My bet is he's never seen another therapsid species before...

markhawkman

jonsills wrote: »

There's nothing in canon stating definitively that they did it to themselves, but it's the only way it makes any sort of evolutionary sense. When you're the only sapient species on your planet, you can't evolve this "preying on the dead of other sapients" as your sole method of reproduction; it simply has no opportunity to come about.

The only way I can make this even vaguely plausible is if we assume that there was some sort of horrible biowarfare accident, probably thousands of years ago. Were I writing it, the weapon would have originally been intended to use the battlefield fallen to fill out the military's ranks, but evolved further than expected and rendered the Kobali themselves sterile. Now the only way to make more Kobali is to infect corpses with this retrovirus - and it will only work on non-Kobali, due to its basic design. And either the Kobali have lost the bioengineering genius they once had, or they just plain don't care that they've become a race of ghouls.

Yeah, people keep forgetting that it isn't normal for Kobali to remember who they were. Usually they completely forget. Why?

I'm thinking that it could be something done TO the Kobali long ago, but we really don't know. It definitely has the earmarks of artificial engineering. Who could do such a thing? Well, I don't want to say the obvious but... Iconians.

It's definitely a race that I feel sympathy for, simply because of how horrible their situation is. NEEDing to do what they do to survive as a race sucks. why not use cloning or some sort of artificial reproduction? Maybe the artificial engineering that was done as a way to eradicate their race? In theory you could write a virus like that so that those infected with it can't reproduce the old-fashioned way because zygotes can't form.

ashstorm1

I do not hate the Kobali, but i certainly have no love for them either.

Honestly, i don't really care about the circumstances that drove them to develop such practices. It is strongly hinted, though, that they just brought this upon themselves. But fine... Since it is unclear, let's give them the benefit of doubt, and consider they weren't totally responsible for it.

With that said, and their method of reproduction being whatever they are, i still do not support the way they think and act towards others : as far as i know, they seem to have no qualms in thinking being necro'ed back to life as a Kobali is the greatest honor one can receive, just as if belonging to another species equaled to being of an inferior condition... This, in itself, is a form of racism/speciesism.

Beyond that, previous posters depicted them pretty accurately already : they are opportunistic, they lie, they conceal the truth from their allies, and then act all self-righteous and butthurt when confronted about it, claiming that outsiders cannot understand these things anyway (once again, the 'you're not a Kobali, and therefore you're TRIBBLE' aspect).

mirrorchaos

ashstorm1 wrote: »

I do not hate the Kobali, but i certainly have no love for them either.

Honestly, i don't really care about the circumstances that drove them to develop such practices. It is strongly hinted, though, that they just brought this upon themselves. But fine... Since it is unclear, let's give them the benefit of doubt, and consider they weren't totally responsible for it.

With that said, and their method of reproduction being whatever they are, i still do not support the way they think and act towards others : as far as i know, they seem to have no qualms in thinking being necro'ed back to life as a Kobali is the greatest honor one can receive, just as if belonging to another species equaled to being of an inferior condition... This, in itself, is a form of racism/speciesism.

Beyond that, previous posters depicted them pretty accurately already : they are opportunistic, they lie, they conceal the truth from their allies, and then act all self-righteous and butthurt when confronted about it, claiming that outsiders cannot understand these things anyway (once again, the 'you're not a Kobali, and therefore you're TRIBBLE' aspect).

that was never stated either that they consider other races as 2nd class, they claim to be misunderstood, yet they themselves clearly misunderstand themselves. i doubt its intentional, but something thats just happened over generations.

for example this group of people were raised in this school, they are intelligent, hyper ambitious and very snooty. but people from this town over here were raised in this this school and are more grounded, honest and generally all round okay. even though both are only a few miles a part, the difference in how they were taught influenced how they behave. they may not of noticed how their own behaviour is a problem, they do not understand how others see it differently because they they were never taught to understand a different mindset, so there is a miscommunication between the sides.

what the federation considers dishonest from the kobali is like asking a random girl from the street in asking what her vital statistics are and asking to see her naked in comparison to the way the federation chastise the kobali. to the kobali they would be utterly humilitated by the experience of such a difference in culture and mindset.

there is more then one view point.

senatorvreenak

Borg + Necromancers = Kobali

They have become a delusional and vile race, and the mere thought of them makes my skin crawl.
Not only do they more or less engage in necromancy re-animating the dead, but they also assimilate them, turning them into kobali.
Who is even to say that the memory loss the subjects suffer is due to their death? But may in fact be the result of the kobali assimilation process restructuring their brains and destroying their old memories and identity.

darkjeff

Sounds like lots of people are overly attached to corpses.

The Klingons have it right. It's only an empty shell, toss it at the Kobali if they want it.

Turn it into people, harvest it for organs, make Soylent Green, whatever. Give them purpose in death.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

gulberat

This was what really got to me even more than before. I had expected the process to happen with the victim unconscious, but what we see with Ensign Kim (I refuse now to call him Keten) is that it is torture. The former would be questionable enough. The latter is hideous on a Borg level indeed.

Which brings me back to almost wishing the plot had taken a gruesome turn in the final confrontation and we'd seen the screen cut to black, hear a weapons discharge, screaming, and come back to find Ensign Kim laying dead by his own hand. Or if they wanted to avoid ESRB problems and show something shocking onscreen, they could have done what amounts to a "suicide by cop" scenario--either of which would have been very plausible in light of his behavior and emotions up to that point.

Let Jhet'leya live with NEVER being able to magically "make it right." And hope Kobali live a long, long time.

For me, as sick as this is, it would have been a more satisfying ending than Captain Kim somehow accepting what's been done to his counterpart in what I suspect was some sort of strained, forced diplomatic speech.

starswordc

mirrorchaos wrote: »

counterpoint for what? what exactly was it implying, in what context. meddling in forces they could not control? meddling who and whats forces? and how was it uncontrollable and how does any of it fit with the kobali?

you got answers for these as a counterpoint, im waiting.

I don't have to counter those because you're making a strawman argument. I was refuting the OP's assertion that it's not the Kobalis' fault they can't reproduce sexually. By the Kobalis' own admission, it is their fault.

It's that simple.

markhawkman wrote: »

Yeah, people keep forgetting that it isn't normal for Kobali to remember who they were. Usually they completely forget. Why?

It may not be "normal", but the mere fact that the Kobali have a term for and established procedures for dealing with escapees (VOY: "Ashes to Ashes") indicates that it's a lot more common than they like to admit. So worffan's right: that's systematic domestic abuse and cult-like behavior added to the Kobalis' long list of sentient rights abuses.

adverbero

darkjeff wrote: »

Sounds like lots of people are overly attached to corpses.

The Klingons have it right. It's only an empty shell, toss it at the Kobali if they want it.

Turn it into people, harvest it for organs, make Soylent Green, whatever. Give them purpose in death.

Agreed

Corpse is a corpse, a vessel now devoid of whatever spark drove it, why should I care what somebody does with it, so long as they didn't kill to obtain it

gulberat

adverbero wrote: »

Agreed

Corpse is a corpse, a vessel now devoid of whatever spark drove it, why should I care what somebody does with it, so long as they didn't kill to obtain it

The episodes both on VOY and STO suggest that in the Trek universe, the soul does have a connection with the body. I am NOT going to open a debate on why, simply state that the empirical evidence on the show is, "If you successfully revive a corpse, the essence of the personality is there until forcibly overwritten and destroyed in a torturous process where the victim is awake and conscious for the overwriting."

starswordc

adverbero wrote: »

Agreed

Corpse is a corpse, a vessel now devoid of whatever spark drove it, why should I care what somebody does with it, so long as they didn't kill to obtain it

*points at Vaadwaur battlefield casualties against the Kobali being used by the Kobali*

adverbero

starswordc wrote: »

*points at Vaadwaur battlefield casualties against the Kobali being used by the Kobali*

Hey I didn't call them saints now did I, sure their procreation method is vulnerable to abuse by despreate or unscrupulous people

And when it comes to Battlefield captives and enslaving them, Humans have their own pretty nasty history, arguably worse since humans enslaved a sentient individual in horrible conditions, whereas Kobali love them like their own ( in thier own creepy way )

But considering their vaadwaur I can't say i feel much sympathy for them either

kintisho

Useless corpses??? No they remember tactical data, technology, tactics, SECURITY CODES????


I think I will start a new fleet alliance.. the KCO (Kobali Counter Offensive) we will use nanite packs that disintegrate our corpses.. And wipe these treacherous Iconian servitors out of the verse!!!

ahem, well thats if any logic proves true.. No Hate just security... You cant kill a corpse right?