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Why do people hate the Kobali?
lessley00
Member Posts: 1,200 Arc User
The Kobali are great, they are kind people and they fought to defend their world. As for their rebirth thing: its not their fault their d*cks dont work, they need to reproduce somehow. And people fussing about the stasis pods they rage quit: the Kobali promised not to rebirth anymore Vaadwaur. Im trying to create a Kobali toon I like them so much, and I am honored to have a Kobali on my bridge crew.
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Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
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Coupled with this if the Vaadwaur could somehow be talked into doing this instead of genocide or constant attacks on the Kobali, I would try to convince Eldex that the anti-Kobali vaccine (not the genocide weapon, but the injection the Vaadwaur administer to *themselves*) is highly marketable. Who knows--maybe he'd be a little less intractable if actually shown some respect for his position regarding the Kobali, which where he stands must look just as terrible as what the Bluegills have done to his people. That's the thing people don't get about Eldex: as he sees it, he has seen what amounts to a gang r*pe on his species, with two different species lining up for their turns. I apologize for the graphic imagery but that is what I think he sees and why he is so disgusted, angry, and unwilling to negotiate.
A Federation that didn't just unhesitatingly accept every Kobali excuse and flat-out take their side to the death...that could look a little better to Eldex than what we're made to do in game.
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Actually, it is their fault. They don't give details, but I'm fairly certain they mention some experiment gone wrong which caused their condition.
I would be much happier about the Kobali if we had any indication that they were working on a solution to this problem, or were even interested in a solution. They seem to have completely accepted this form of "reproduction", and expect everyone else to accept it as well.
However, the Kobali seem to be so used to subterfuge and underhanded dealings in order to reproduce that they've lost the ability to just honestly ask for what they want.
there is no profit in it at this point if your going completely pre-rom grand nagus type of ferengi. but ferengi are now required to file taxes, comply with regulations and such, get it all sanctioned by the governing body. i just dont see it happening unless its a rogue operation.
as for the kobali, there is nothing hard in proof to link the kobali to some accident that turned them to this. right now we know little of their whole way of life, and even if you have 30 episodes with the kobali, you still wouldnt be scratching the surface of the kobali way of life, culture, customs, religion, politics, recreation, if they attempted to couple in an attempt to reproduce or whatever else floats that boat, i actually dont care about the kobali, but if the cryptic devs are expanding on them even more, they may as well go the whole distance on it.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
The only way I can make this even vaguely plausible is if we assume that there was some sort of horrible biowarfare accident, probably thousands of years ago. Were I writing it, the weapon would have originally been intended to use the battlefield fallen to fill out the military's ranks, but evolved further than expected and rendered the Kobali themselves sterile. Now the only way to make more Kobali is to infect corpses with this retrovirus - and it will only work on non-Kobali, due to its basic design. And either the Kobali have lost the bioengineering genius they once had, or they just plain don't care that they've become a race of ghouls.
maybe, but based on whats written on sto canon, they at first dont care to steal corpses, and then the vaadwaur attack, it frightens them out of their stuck ways and eventually they start to realize they cant hide who they are from themselves and everyone else any longer if jhet'leya was any indication the same with Q'nel and Hanchion. their secrets have cost them dearly and eventually the truth will come out about what happened to the kobali in sto canon. there is currently nothing to argue for or against until there is something solid to work with. i mean for all we know the kobali just dont want to do it with each other or is another secret, something of a major taboo so they steal bodies instead. nonsensical or not, its just as valid as yours.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
You want me to make a list? Fine, I'll make a list.
And yes, it is their fault their dicks don't work. Pay attention to the story next time: they're clearly stated to have done it to themselves by "meddling with forces they could not control."
In comparison the Vaadwaur are really no worse in any substantive way than the Klingons or the TNG-era Romulans. They're just your basic violent racist imperialists, something the Federation has dealt with quite successfully on its own territory for centuries.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
They have lied repeatedly to the Alliance, getting our people killed while offering nothing to us and repeatedly failing to comply with demands made by the Alliance for our continued support.
They have failed repeatedly to negotiate in good faith, engage in abusive relationship behavior on a regular basis, and generally treat sentient rights as optional. They are hypocritical, claiming to be noble pacifists while they kill prisoners and use them as breeding stock.
Oh, and they probably started this whole thing by f*cking up their own genomes.
Need I say more?
On point 3, that's actually domestic abuse (especially in the original episode) and emotional abuse. I am particularly enraged by that bit, having had some very bad personal experiences with domestic abuse, and knowing people who are and have been in abusive relationships. My roommate and I even had to take a friend's creepy ex into an unused classroom once and imply that if he so much as touched her again he would regret it. Then we called campus public safety when he tried to creep on her again.
Anyway. The Kobali are creepy TRIBBLE who treat sentient rights as optional. The Vaads? They're just WW2 Germany, and once you've killed Hitler--i.e. Gaul--the rest are just reasonable people who're monumentally p*ssed off. The Vaadwaur, besides Gaul's war crimes for the sake of war crimes, have proven to be very open, honest people, if brutal and at best morally gray. The Kobali have proven themselves to be lying scumbags time and time again.
I'll take the racist idiots any day.
Wasn't there something in that mission that said the Kobali had only used the ones that were already dead?
which is so vague that it doesnt even cover the point. so far you got nada. you need something more solid then that.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
It may be vague but it's perfectly usable as a counterargument, considering it came from the Kobali themselves.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
counterpoint for what? what exactly was it implying, in what context. meddling in forces they could not control? meddling who and whats forces? and how was it uncontrollable and how does any of it fit with the kobali?
you got answers for these as a counterpoint, im waiting.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
It was ambiguous at best, IIRC. And even then, I think that's a crime of some sort.
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I'm thinking that it could be something done TO the Kobali long ago, but we really don't know. It definitely has the earmarks of artificial engineering. Who could do such a thing? Well, I don't want to say the obvious but... Iconians.
It's definitely a race that I feel sympathy for, simply because of how horrible their situation is. NEEDing to do what they do to survive as a race sucks. why not use cloning or some sort of artificial reproduction? Maybe the artificial engineering that was done as a way to eradicate their race? In theory you could write a virus like that so that those infected with it can't reproduce the old-fashioned way because zygotes can't form.
My character Tsin'xing
Honestly, i don't really care about the circumstances that drove them to develop such practices. It is strongly hinted, though, that they just brought this upon themselves. But fine... Since it is unclear, let's give them the benefit of doubt, and consider they weren't totally responsible for it.
With that said, and their method of reproduction being whatever they are, i still do not support the way they think and act towards others : as far as i know, they seem to have no qualms in thinking being necro'ed back to life as a Kobali is the greatest honor one can receive, just as if belonging to another species equaled to being of an inferior condition... This, in itself, is a form of racism/speciesism.
Beyond that, previous posters depicted them pretty accurately already : they are opportunistic, they lie, they conceal the truth from their allies, and then act all self-righteous and butthurt when confronted about it, claiming that outsiders cannot understand these things anyway (once again, the 'you're not a Kobali, and therefore you're TRIBBLE' aspect).
that was never stated either that they consider other races as 2nd class, they claim to be misunderstood, yet they themselves clearly misunderstand themselves. i doubt its intentional, but something thats just happened over generations.
for example this group of people were raised in this school, they are intelligent, hyper ambitious and very snooty. but people from this town over here were raised in this this school and are more grounded, honest and generally all round okay. even though both are only a few miles a part, the difference in how they were taught influenced how they behave. they may not of noticed how their own behaviour is a problem, they do not understand how others see it differently because they they were never taught to understand a different mindset, so there is a miscommunication between the sides.
what the federation considers dishonest from the kobali is like asking a random girl from the street in asking what her vital statistics are and asking to see her naked in comparison to the way the federation chastise the kobali. to the kobali they would be utterly humilitated by the experience of such a difference in culture and mindset.
there is more then one view point.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
They have become a delusional and vile race, and the mere thought of them makes my skin crawl.
Not only do they more or less engage in necromancy re-animating the dead, but they also assimilate them, turning them into kobali.
Who is even to say that the memory loss the subjects suffer is due to their death? But may in fact be the result of the kobali assimilation process restructuring their brains and destroying their old memories and identity.
The Klingons have it right. It's only an empty shell, toss it at the Kobali if they want it.
Turn it into people, harvest it for organs, make Soylent Green, whatever. Give them purpose in death.
Which brings me back to almost wishing the plot had taken a gruesome turn in the final confrontation and we'd seen the screen cut to black, hear a weapons discharge, screaming, and come back to find Ensign Kim laying dead by his own hand. Or if they wanted to avoid ESRB problems and show something shocking onscreen, they could have done what amounts to a "suicide by cop" scenario--either of which would have been very plausible in light of his behavior and emotions up to that point.
Let Jhet'leya live with NEVER being able to magically "make it right." And hope Kobali live a long, long time.
For me, as sick as this is, it would have been a more satisfying ending than Captain Kim somehow accepting what's been done to his counterpart in what I suspect was some sort of strained, forced diplomatic speech.
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It's that simple.
It may not be "normal", but the mere fact that the Kobali have a term for and established procedures for dealing with escapees (VOY: "Ashes to Ashes") indicates that it's a lot more common than they like to admit. So worffan's right: that's systematic domestic abuse and cult-like behavior added to the Kobalis' long list of sentient rights abuses.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Agreed
Corpse is a corpse, a vessel now devoid of whatever spark drove it, why should I care what somebody does with it, so long as they didn't kill to obtain it
The episodes both on VOY and STO suggest that in the Trek universe, the soul does have a connection with the body. I am NOT going to open a debate on why, simply state that the empirical evidence on the show is, "If you successfully revive a corpse, the essence of the personality is there until forcibly overwritten and destroyed in a torturous process where the victim is awake and conscious for the overwriting."
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
*points at Vaadwaur battlefield casualties against the Kobali being used by the Kobali*
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Hey I didn't call them saints now did I, sure their procreation method is vulnerable to abuse by despreate or unscrupulous people
And when it comes to Battlefield captives and enslaving them, Humans have their own pretty nasty history, arguably worse since humans enslaved a sentient individual in horrible conditions, whereas Kobali love them like their own ( in thier own creepy way )
But considering their vaadwaur I can't say i feel much sympathy for them either
I think I will start a new fleet alliance.. the KCO (Kobali Counter Offensive) we will use nanite packs that disintegrate our corpses.. And wipe these treacherous Iconian servitors out of the verse!!!
ahem, well thats if any logic proves true.. No Hate just security... You cant kill a corpse right?
...spaaaaaaaaaace...
The Kobali are ambiguous.
On the one hand...
But on the other...
Having taken some emergency medical training, I can tell you that those first two points on the second list are big no-no's. You must obtain consent to begin treatment, either from the patient or from a representative.
It gets trickier when the patient is unresponsive or not capable of making an informed decision (or, in the Kobali's case, dead) and there is no representative present. Unless you have proof otherwise, such as a do not resuscitate order on the patient's person, you are granted "implied consent." This means that you are to operate under the assumption that if the patient were responsive, they would give you permission to save their life. After all, if you save them when they don't want to be saved, they don't really lose much, whereas if you don't save them when they wanted to be saved, they're out of luck big-time.
So, expanding that analogy to resurrection, there's no reason the kobali shouldn't resurrect corpses they acquire. The problem is that they do not make sufficient attempt to attain consent: they do not properly explain to the newly resurrected person what has happened, what will happen, and what his options are, they just keep badgering the person that "you're not Harry Kim any more, you're Ketan the kobali."
Also, given that corpses are not in immediate danger of becoming impossible to resurrect, the kobali have ample opportunity to seek the consent of the deceased's representatives. Again, taking the example of Harry Kim, the living Kim was within a couple kilometers of where the body was held. They should have contacted him and asked "If you were in this position, would you want to be resurrected?"* Alternately, get a Federation ship to relay a message to Kim's family back in the Alpha Quadrant.
So there's nothing wrong with the act of resurrection, at least under the ethical system used for Earth's nearest analogy. The failure to give a choice is where they go wrong. The give someone another opportunity to live is good, but they don't also grant the necessary freedom to choose that goes with it.
In my eyes, the kobali are like children. They think what they're doing is good, and in some ways it is, but they're not going about it the right way.
The reason that the Federation is involved is because the kobali are under threat of genocide from the vadwaar, who are an enemy of the Federation. While the kobali are behavin in an ethically dubious manner, the vadwaar are overtly unethical in attempting genocide. In this instance it is right for the Federation to intervene on behalf of the kobali despite the flaws of their practice. Additionally, the vadwaar is an enemy of all the Delta Quadrant races and the Delta Alliance, so there's further impetus. Add to this that the vadwaar may be under Iconian influence, so who knows if there's a hidden motive behind attacking the kobali, and there's a whole heap of reasons to step in.
That being said, the proper course of action would probably be for the Federation would also be right to return the vadwaar in stasis to their awakened kin, overriding the protests of the kobali if need be. After all, the kobali have no right to the vadwaar within the temple, living or dead.
The kobali's ethic are dubious, but they seem to be receptive to tutelage from the more mature races of the Alliance. So hating the kobali is not really productive. A better stance would be that the kobali must be taught to do better... but that gets into the whole stupid Prime Directive.
So it's complicated.
As a bit of an aside, I want to mention this: the kobali don't fit the typical black and white good vs. evil spectrum typical in the Star Trek Online storylines. We have an ally who is suffering and who wants to do good things, but what they think is good differs from what some other races think is good, and they're not handling it very well. This is, in my opinion, a good thing--it's more like Trek as we know it from the TV shows. The writers are listening to us! So feel free to dislike the kobali, but I think we should support the writers.
*Note that I'm not suggesting they ask him "should he be resurrected?" That's a different question. Present Harry Kim does not, in my opinion, have a right to decide whether Ketan should be resuscitated or not: he can only decide if Ketan would want to be resurrected.