The Kobali are great, they are kind people and they fought to defend their world. As for their rebirth thing: its not their fault their d*cks dont work, they need to reproduce somehow. And people fussing about the stasis pods they rage quit: the Kobali promised not to rebirth anymore Vaadwaur. Im trying to create a Kobali toon I like them so much, and I am honored to have a Kobali on my bridge crew.
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I do not hate all Kobali. Just one. The General on Kobali Prime who gives you the missions. Every time you open the dialog: "We can't stop until the V
The sapients who would want to live after death want their personalities to survive, which isn't going to work with the Kobali method. However, I can see a potential market - if they can outbid everyone else for Ferengi corpses, there's a market; Klingons boast that once the warrior is dead, the body is a shell, so they could make a tidy sum selling the shells; Humans are supposedly officially atheistic according to Roddenberry, so there would be no real reason not to turn their dead over in order to assist the Kobali; and so forth.
However, the Kobali seem to be so used to subterfuge and underhanded dealings in order to reproduce that they've lost the ability to just honestly ask for what they want.
What Roddenberry said and what was seen on screen didn't generally match up. So, I don't see all Humans as willingly giving up their dead to the Kobali. It would likely be on a case by case basis.
This is one circumstance where I would find it acceptable to violate the Prime Directive, which Archer sorta created at the end of the episode with three-gendered aliens. However, please learn the legal definition of genocide. It is where a party deliberately seek to expel and entire community, exterminate them, or eliminate their ability to reproduce (based on what the TRIBBLE did in WWII). What Archer did was allow nature to win out; morally ambiguous and not the decision I might have made, but not genocide, negligent or otherwise.
1. Archer did NOT allow nature to "win out", since evolution doesn't work the way he and Phlox claimed. What he did was allow a genetic disorder to supposedly wipe out a species without lifting a finger to help, which is patently ridiculous but then again it's ENT.
2. Dictionary definition of genocide is direct culpability for the deaths of a large group of people, esp. of one nation or ethnic group.
Moving on to your second point... what Trek21 is saying is that we shouldn't ccondemn everyone of the wifebeater's culture or nationality as wifebeaters. And I must say it is hypocritical to criticise painting all the Vaadwaur as the same while doing exactly that with the Kobali.
On an unrelated note... why a Russian policeman?
False. Trek21's praising the Kobali culture and rebirth process, the very things that are most evil, rather than merely asinine, about the Kobali.
Also, I've said before that I prefer to think of the Kobali as a bunch of people ruled by absolute scumbags. I'm not saying that every single individual Kobali is a monster that must be extinguished, I'm saying the Kobali culture encourages evil acts and abusive relationships. And that's wrong.
Russian policeman? Because Putin's Russia is a militaristic, xenophobic, relatively expansionistic state. The Vaads come off a lot like Space Russians at times.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Gaul is Space Hitler, yes. But Eldex? Comes off a lot more like Russians in Bond movies, or Kang in Day of the Dove.
if they based eldex after russians...i don't know, they probably did; but the entire vaadwaur supremacy is peppered with TRIBBLE refernces, some subtle and some blatantly obvious
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
1. Archer did NOT allow nature to "win out", since evolution doesn't work the way he and Phlox claimed. What he did was allow a genetic disorder to supposedly wipe out a species without lifting a finger to help, which is patently ridiculous but then again it's ENT.
2. Dictionary definition of genocide is direct culpability for the deaths of a large group of people, esp. of one nation or ethnic group.
False. Trek21's praising the Kobali culture and rebirth process, the very things that are most evil, rather than merely asinine, about the Kobali.
Also, I've said before that I prefer to think of the Kobali as a bunch of people ruled by absolute scumbags. I'm not saying that every single individual Kobali is a monster that must be extinguished, I'm saying the Kobali culture encourages evil acts and abusive relationships. And that's wrong.
Russian policeman? Because Putin's Russia is a militaristic, xenophobic, relatively expansionistic state. The Vaads come off a lot like Space Russians at times.
The United Nations definition of genocide (and the grounds on which the Serbia-Croatia cases were dismissed last week) is closer to what I described.
Also, now you're just making stuff up. Trek21 never praised the Kobali culture.
And... see what I mean about painting an entire society in the same brush as one of its members?
Memory Alpha doesn't make any such distinction, but does give instances in which the Prime Directive can be broken (and neither of them work out well for the Kobali)
Whether Memory Alpha makes no distinction or not, doesn't render the point moot.
The idea behind the Prime Directive changed when TNG came along, in order to better fit in with Roddenberry's "vision" for the "new and improved" Starfleet. However, it doesn't work out in many cases. So, the writers ending up slowly going to the "bend the rules" school of thought to strike a balance between not making things worse through interference, and the need for interference in many circumstances (even if a literal reading of the later Prime Directive would forbid it).
In other words, the more practical Prime Directive of TOS allowed Kirk to bulldog his way into a solution, with a bit of fait accompli at the end. Picard (after the candy TRIBBLE era ended, and the awesome era began in TNG) didn't have that luxury. But his time called for subtlety and craftiness in skirting the edge of the rules when called for, something Jean Luc Picard was a master at.
1. Archer did NOT allow nature to "win out", since evolution doesn't work the way he and Phlox claimed. What he did was allow a genetic disorder to supposedly wipe out a species without lifting a finger to help, which is patently ridiculous but then again it's ENT.
"Dear Doctor" was a case of the writers running out of original ideas, and making two of the main characters look like complete morons or monsters (depending on your PoV).
In any case, this wouldn't even fall under the Prime Directive in Federation times because the Valakians made contact with them while in space, and were aware of/made contact with other space faring civilizations.
Archer should have rendered aid in full and turned over the cure, regardless of Phlox's and T'Pol's eugenicidal views on the matter.
The United Nations definition of genocide (and the grounds on which the Serbia-Croatia cases were dismissed last week) is closer to what I described.
Also, now you're just making stuff up. Trek21 never praised the Kobali culture.
And... see what I mean about painting an entire society in the same brush as one of its members?
Ehhhh...you COULD make a case in a lot of circles for "genocide by negligence"--IE, watching the extinction of a sentient species happen without lifting a finger to help despite being fully capable of preventing it. But you are correct (although I'm seriously disappointed about the verdicts in question).
Um...he pretty clearly said that the Kobali's rebirth process is a good thing and that we should let them keep resurrecting people sans consent because it's their culture.
Well, first off, Putin is just the figurehead for a broader cultural thing in Russia.
The thing a lot of people don't understand about Russia is that it's a harsh environment whose nationalism has been deeply-ingrained in the ethnic Russian people ever since the Mongols obliterated the pre-Russian states in the Middle Ages. Divided, Russia falls. United, Russia is invincible. To Russians, Russia isn't just a state. Russia is the sacred motherland, and every good Russian will be strong, manly, and muscular, fighting to the death rather than see his motherland under even the unofficial thumb of foreigners.
That's still the prevalent attitude in the rural regions, and I should know this because I heard it at length from my mother, who graduated TRIBBLE laude from Harvard with a degree in Russian literature and has been studying Russian language and culture since the early 80s.
Anyway. Russia really does value this muscular naitonalism, much like the Klingon Empire does. It's unpopular in the US because we're starting to become the same way and we don't like other people beating us at anything, but it's not necessarily bad. Hell, the Klingons proved against the Dominion that this attitude could literally save the entire quadrant.
Sorry for rambling, this is something that I do, in fact, have quite a bit of knowledge of.
To continue the Russia comparison: In rural Russia, Eldex would be the epitome of the ideal man. He is strong, manful, and ruthless in defense of his motherland, he is courageous and loyal to his leader, and when he discovers that said leader has betrayed the motherland to invading outsiders, he rightly turns on Gaul and ensures that he is justly punished for betraying the motherland to outsiders.
It's a cultural thing that comes from living in one of the world's most inhospitable countries, being invaded during a period of warring states, and throwing off the invaders by uniting into one cultural entity.
Also reminiscent of the history of another group you might recall - starts with "An", ends in "dorian"?
Indeed... and let's think for a moment about the circumstances of first contact with the Andorians.
The Enterprise found a community of its supposedly innocent allies under attack by vicious militarists... and investigated... and found that the supposedly innocent allies were, in fact, doing the dirty on the vicious militarists, and had been lying about their intentions and activities.
So, the Enterprise crew exposed the lies, dragged the whole business out into the open - and, in the process, set things up for the vicious militarists to learn to trust us, and ultimately become allies and firm friends.
Jonathan Archer got that one right. (And you won't catch me saying that very often, let me tell you.)
We ought to be allowed to get it right, too, with regard to the Kobali.
I don't believe I would have helped them fight. I would have sold them the weapons and gear they needed, but also did the same for their enemy. After an battle, I would have then had my crew scavenge the debris for scrap metal and resources to sell as well.
Rule 9> Opportunity plus instinct equals profit!
Rule 13> Anything worth doing, is worth doing for money!
Rule 21> Never place friendship above profit!
Rule 34> War is good for business!
Rule 41> Profit is it's own reward!
Rule 97> Enough, is never enough!
Rule 162> Even in the worst of times, someone turns a profit!
Rule 202> The justification for profit, is profit!!!
New Lunar Republic
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
Indeed... and let's think for a moment about the circumstances of first contact with the Andorians.
The Enterprise found a community of its supposedly innocent allies under attack by vicious militarists... and investigated... and found that the supposedly innocent allies were, in fact, doing the dirty on the vicious militarists, and had been lying about their intentions and activities.
So, the Enterprise crew exposed the lies, dragged the whole business out into the open - and, in the process, set things up for the vicious militarists to learn to trust us, and ultimately become allies and firm friends.
Jonathan Archer got that one right. (And you won't catch me saying that very often, let me tell you.)
We ought to be allowed to get it right, too, with regard to the Kobali.
To be fair, the problem at P'Jem wasn't the spy array itself. It was hiding the spy array in a civilian institution dedicated supposedly to peace. Archer would have been clearly in the wrong to outright give the data on the spy array to the Andorians in most other circumstances due to Earth's alliance with Vulcan. However, the fact that the Vulcans put this array in a place of peace...it's like ISIS hiding out in schools. Not OK, because it gives the enemy legitimacy in attacking civilian targets.
If it had been some nondescript office building in a government district, I'd be fully against Archer on this one. As it is...well, the results were good, and although the ends don't justify the means, it WAS a very morally gray situation. My primary ripe was the self-righteous disgust with which Archer beholds his supposed allies in the climax.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I'd suggest the Provisional IRA, if that didn't hit so close for me, being part-Irish and mostly British...
Yeah, pretty much any real-world analogy I can think of is going to be called "too soon" by somebody. Except maybe the TRIBBLE using the Parthenon as a munitions dump and a monastery in Italy as a fortress.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yeah, pretty much any real-world analogy I can think of is going to be called "too soon" by somebody. Except maybe the TRIBBLE using the Parthenon as a munitions dump and a monastery in Italy as a fortress.
well, i think anything older than 200-300 years is going to be safe, as there would be very few alive now that were personally affected by such a thing
i just think that any ISIS references might not be the best of ideas since they're still an active terror group so people will be touchy about mention of them - hell we've already had two threads that i know of in the past 6 months complaining about supposed references between said group and the computer core in facility in 4028 (which i personally think was rather ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I've tended to see Russia's closest parallel in Star Trek as being the Cardassians--even the descriptions of their past really seem like it to me. The other element that comparison brings out, and that I have actually seen in operation in speaking once with a low-level opposition member, is that of widespread learned helplessness on the part of the people. This individual seemed unable to actually believe in the efficacy and worth of their own cause. (You do not see that aspect in Alyosha or his foster parents, but then they are culturally distanced by four centuries from anything we know of Russia in the present day and even part of a further cultural minority at that, so they should not be expected to conform something totally recognizable.) The Vaadwaur may have to contend with such an attitude of learned helplessness, should there be an attempt to change, just as the Cardassians did, because it could stymie their ability for that patriotism--which IMO can still remain if stripped of the idea of racial superiority--to take a more benign aspect.
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well, i think anything older than 200-300 years is going to be safe, as there would be very few alive now that were personally affected by such a thing
i just think that any ISIS references might not be the best of ideas since they're still an active terror group so people will be touchy about mention of them - hell we've already had two threads that i know of in the past 6 months complaining about supposed references between said group and the computer core in facility in 4028 (which i personally think was rather ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there)
There is no such thing as a "safe" comparison.
There are people today who still get pissy, and try to exploit, TRIBBLE that happened within the time frame you picked as "safe" and further back.
The only solution to the problem is for people not to get bent out of shape over historical comparisons. Then there would be no problem to begin with.
The comparison to the TRIBBLE use of a monastery as a fortress is rather apropos to the situation at P'Jem, I think, except that to the best of my knowledge the TRIBBLE never tried to keep their use of the monastery secret - at least the Vulcans were ashamed of their duplicity.
It's also worth noting that when Archer arrived at P'Jem, he was pretty much on the Vulcans' side, but when he learned what was going on, he didn't stubbornly stay with that position. I'd like to see any story taking place after "Dust to Dust" begin to distance the Alliance from the Kobali, until they can learn to be honest about what they need.
Regarding the origin of the Prime Directive in ENT, Worffan, you're moving the goalposts just a bit. When it's something in VOY where reason could show that our "knowledge" was just slightly mistaken, you insist we have to stick with what the show gave us, no matter how badly written, but in this case, you insist we are supposed to disregard what the show gave us, just because it was badly written.
And speaking of evolution (a topic you are pretty well educated on, I understand), if the Kobali reproduction method consists, as you maintain, of kidnapping sapients of other species, altering their appearance, and then browbeating, abusing, and brainwashing them into pretending they've become Kobali - how could such a method of reproduction have ever evolved??
And speaking of evolution (a topic you are pretty well educated on, I understand), if the Kobali reproduction method consists, as you maintain, of kidnapping sapients of other species, altering their appearance, and then browbeating, abusing, and brainwashing them into pretending they've become Kobali - how could such a method of reproduction have ever evolved??
That's explained in the Kobali Front missions. It didn't evolve. It was a countermeasure for the Kobali dicking around with genetic engineering and accidentally sterilizing themselves. Apparently clinical trials are an invention unique to the Alpha Quadrant.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's explained in the Kobali Front missions. It didn't evolve. It was a countermeasure for the Kobali dicking around with genetic engineering and accidentally sterilizing themselves. Apparently clinical trials are an invention unique to the Alpha Quadrant.
who said anything about genetic engineering? the kobali in question said their ancestors 'tampered with forces beyond their control'
that does not immediately scream 'genetic engineering' to me; for all we know, it could've been some technology way beyond their capability at the time that went all screwey and released some kind of radiation that caused the sterilization
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
who said anything about genetic engineering? the kobali in question said their ancestors 'tampered with forces beyond their control'
that does not immediately scream 'genetic engineering' to me; for all we know, it could've been some technology way beyond their capability at the time that went all screwey and released some kind of radiation that caused the sterilization
Okay, genetic engineering just seemed like the simplest explanation to me. Point is, reproducing by necromancy is explicitly not something that evolved naturally.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Okay, genetic engineering just seemed like the simplest explanation to me. Point is, reproducing by necromancy is explicitly not something that evolved naturally.
but it's certainly the most unique method i've ever seen
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Deanna's pretty much just an empath since she's only half-Betazoid. A full-blood Betazoid is much stronger.
Okay, genetic engineering just seemed like the simplest explanation to me. Point is, reproducing by necromancy is explicitly not something that evolved naturally.
It could also be that they earned the attention of an external power ('forces beyond their control') who proceeded to sterilise them. It's not unbelievable. In B5, the Shadows exterminated entire races for defying them, and the Minbari punishment for a species testing their patience was to pursue them all the way back to their world, destroying everything else in their path (I'm referring to the Streib). Hell, the Dominion unleashed a plague on a world just for refusing to join them.
It could also be that they earned the attention of an external power ('forces beyond their control') who proceeded to sterilise them. It's not unbelievable. In B5, the Shadows exterminated entire races for defying them, and the Minbari punishment for a species testing their patience was to pursue them all the way back to their world, destroying everything else in their path (I'm referring to the Streib). Hell, the Dominion unleashed a plague on a world just for refusing to join them.
and the way cryptic is going with them, we'll probably find out the iconians are to blame for the sterilization of the kobali as well
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That's explained in the Kobali Front missions. It didn't evolve. It was a countermeasure for the Kobali dicking around with genetic engineering and accidentally sterilizing themselves. Apparently clinical trials are an invention unique to the Alpha Quadrant.
The M-5 and Crusher accidently devolving the Enterprise-D crew implies that even the Alpha Quadrant doesn't do qualitative testing.
Regarding the origin of the Prime Directive in ENT, Worffan, you're moving the goalposts just a bit. When it's something in VOY where reason could show that our "knowledge" was just slightly mistaken, you insist we have to stick with what the show gave us, no matter how badly written, but in this case, you insist we are supposed to disregard what the show gave us, just because it was badly written.
Plus a later Enterprise episode pretty much had the crew doing a 180 on the subject which implies the writers actually got how morally reprehensible they were being in Dear Doctor.
Comments
I do not hate all Kobali. Just one. The General on Kobali Prime who gives you the missions. Every time you open the dialog: "We can't stop until the V
What Roddenberry said and what was seen on screen didn't generally match up. So, I don't see all Humans as willingly giving up their dead to the Kobali. It would likely be on a case by case basis.
2. Dictionary definition of genocide is direct culpability for the deaths of a large group of people, esp. of one nation or ethnic group.
False. Trek21's praising the Kobali culture and rebirth process, the very things that are most evil, rather than merely asinine, about the Kobali.
Also, I've said before that I prefer to think of the Kobali as a bunch of people ruled by absolute scumbags. I'm not saying that every single individual Kobali is a monster that must be extinguished, I'm saying the Kobali culture encourages evil acts and abusive relationships. And that's wrong.
Russian policeman? Because Putin's Russia is a militaristic, xenophobic, relatively expansionistic state. The Vaads come off a lot like Space Russians at times.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Gaul is Space Hitler, yes. But Eldex? Comes off a lot more like Russians in Bond movies, or Kang in Day of the Dove.
Get over it.
There are more important things to discuss.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The United Nations definition of genocide (and the grounds on which the Serbia-Croatia cases were dismissed last week) is closer to what I described.
Also, now you're just making stuff up. Trek21 never praised the Kobali culture.
And... see what I mean about painting an entire society in the same brush as one of its members?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Whether Memory Alpha makes no distinction or not, doesn't render the point moot.
The idea behind the Prime Directive changed when TNG came along, in order to better fit in with Roddenberry's "vision" for the "new and improved" Starfleet. However, it doesn't work out in many cases. So, the writers ending up slowly going to the "bend the rules" school of thought to strike a balance between not making things worse through interference, and the need for interference in many circumstances (even if a literal reading of the later Prime Directive would forbid it).
In other words, the more practical Prime Directive of TOS allowed Kirk to bulldog his way into a solution, with a bit of fait accompli at the end. Picard (after the candy TRIBBLE era ended, and the awesome era began in TNG) didn't have that luxury. But his time called for subtlety and craftiness in skirting the edge of the rules when called for, something Jean Luc Picard was a master at.
"Dear Doctor" was a case of the writers running out of original ideas, and making two of the main characters look like complete morons or monsters (depending on your PoV).
In any case, this wouldn't even fall under the Prime Directive in Federation times because the Valakians made contact with them while in space, and were aware of/made contact with other space faring civilizations.
Archer should have rendered aid in full and turned over the cure, regardless of Phlox's and T'Pol's eugenicidal views on the matter.
Ehhhh...you COULD make a case in a lot of circles for "genocide by negligence"--IE, watching the extinction of a sentient species happen without lifting a finger to help despite being fully capable of preventing it. But you are correct (although I'm seriously disappointed about the verdicts in question).
Um...he pretty clearly said that the Kobali's rebirth process is a good thing and that we should let them keep resurrecting people sans consent because it's their culture.
Well, first off, Putin is just the figurehead for a broader cultural thing in Russia.
The thing a lot of people don't understand about Russia is that it's a harsh environment whose nationalism has been deeply-ingrained in the ethnic Russian people ever since the Mongols obliterated the pre-Russian states in the Middle Ages. Divided, Russia falls. United, Russia is invincible. To Russians, Russia isn't just a state. Russia is the sacred motherland, and every good Russian will be strong, manly, and muscular, fighting to the death rather than see his motherland under even the unofficial thumb of foreigners.
That's still the prevalent attitude in the rural regions, and I should know this because I heard it at length from my mother, who graduated TRIBBLE laude from Harvard with a degree in Russian literature and has been studying Russian language and culture since the early 80s.
Anyway. Russia really does value this muscular naitonalism, much like the Klingon Empire does. It's unpopular in the US because we're starting to become the same way and we don't like other people beating us at anything, but it's not necessarily bad. Hell, the Klingons proved against the Dominion that this attitude could literally save the entire quadrant.
Sorry for rambling, this is something that I do, in fact, have quite a bit of knowledge of.
It's a cultural thing that comes from living in one of the world's most inhospitable countries, being invaded during a period of warring states, and throwing off the invaders by uniting into one cultural entity.
The Enterprise found a community of its supposedly innocent allies under attack by vicious militarists... and investigated... and found that the supposedly innocent allies were, in fact, doing the dirty on the vicious militarists, and had been lying about their intentions and activities.
So, the Enterprise crew exposed the lies, dragged the whole business out into the open - and, in the process, set things up for the vicious militarists to learn to trust us, and ultimately become allies and firm friends.
Jonathan Archer got that one right. (And you won't catch me saying that very often, let me tell you.)
We ought to be allowed to get it right, too, with regard to the Kobali.
Rule 9> Opportunity plus instinct equals profit!
Rule 13> Anything worth doing, is worth doing for money!
Rule 21> Never place friendship above profit!
Rule 34> War is good for business!
Rule 41> Profit is it's own reward!
Rule 97> Enough, is never enough!
Rule 162> Even in the worst of times, someone turns a profit!
Rule 202> The justification for profit, is profit!!!
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
To be fair, the problem at P'Jem wasn't the spy array itself. It was hiding the spy array in a civilian institution dedicated supposedly to peace. Archer would have been clearly in the wrong to outright give the data on the spy array to the Andorians in most other circumstances due to Earth's alliance with Vulcan. However, the fact that the Vulcans put this array in a place of peace...it's like ISIS hiding out in schools. Not OK, because it gives the enemy legitimacy in attacking civilian targets.
If it had been some nondescript office building in a government district, I'd be fully against Archer on this one. As it is...well, the results were good, and although the ends don't justify the means, it WAS a very morally gray situation. My primary ripe was the self-righteous disgust with which Archer beholds his supposed allies in the climax.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Can't think of anything else off the top of my head...
I'd suggest the Provisional IRA, if that didn't hit so close for me, being part-Irish and mostly British...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yeah, pretty much any real-world analogy I can think of is going to be called "too soon" by somebody. Except maybe the TRIBBLE using the Parthenon as a munitions dump and a monastery in Italy as a fortress.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
i just think that any ISIS references might not be the best of ideas since they're still an active terror group so people will be touchy about mention of them - hell we've already had two threads that i know of in the past 6 months complaining about supposed references between said group and the computer core in facility in 4028 (which i personally think was rather ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there)
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
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There is no such thing as a "safe" comparison.
There are people today who still get pissy, and try to exploit, TRIBBLE that happened within the time frame you picked as "safe" and further back.
The only solution to the problem is for people not to get bent out of shape over historical comparisons. Then there would be no problem to begin with.
It's also worth noting that when Archer arrived at P'Jem, he was pretty much on the Vulcans' side, but when he learned what was going on, he didn't stubbornly stay with that position. I'd like to see any story taking place after "Dust to Dust" begin to distance the Alliance from the Kobali, until they can learn to be honest about what they need.
Regarding the origin of the Prime Directive in ENT, Worffan, you're moving the goalposts just a bit. When it's something in VOY where reason could show that our "knowledge" was just slightly mistaken, you insist we have to stick with what the show gave us, no matter how badly written, but in this case, you insist we are supposed to disregard what the show gave us, just because it was badly written.
And speaking of evolution (a topic you are pretty well educated on, I understand), if the Kobali reproduction method consists, as you maintain, of kidnapping sapients of other species, altering their appearance, and then browbeating, abusing, and brainwashing them into pretending they've become Kobali - how could such a method of reproduction have ever evolved??
That's explained in the Kobali Front missions. It didn't evolve. It was a countermeasure for the Kobali dicking around with genetic engineering and accidentally sterilizing themselves. Apparently clinical trials are an invention unique to the Alpha Quadrant.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
that does not immediately scream 'genetic engineering' to me; for all we know, it could've been some technology way beyond their capability at the time that went all screwey and released some kind of radiation that caused the sterilization
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Okay, genetic engineering just seemed like the simplest explanation to me. Point is, reproducing by necromancy is explicitly not something that evolved naturally.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It could also be that they earned the attention of an external power ('forces beyond their control') who proceeded to sterilise them. It's not unbelievable. In B5, the Shadows exterminated entire races for defying them, and the Minbari punishment for a species testing their patience was to pursue them all the way back to their world, destroying everything else in their path (I'm referring to the Streib). Hell, the Dominion unleashed a plague on a world just for refusing to join them.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The M-5 and Crusher accidently devolving the Enterprise-D crew implies that even the Alpha Quadrant doesn't do qualitative testing.
Plus a later Enterprise episode pretty much had the crew doing a 180 on the subject which implies the writers actually got how morally reprehensible they were being in Dear Doctor.