The Vaadwaur are a militaristic society, highly aggressive, convinced of their own racial superiority, and harbouring deeply-felt grudges based on historical events.
Remind you of anyone else? Hint: it starts with "R", has seven letters, and rhymes with "omulan".
It's not impossible to make peace with these guys - all we need to do is show them how it's in their interests. Which shouldn't be too hard, because it actually is in their interests. (Their alternatives being 1) get consumed as a culture and turned into Iconian slaves, or 2) Obliteration Of The Vaadwaur 2.0, exactly the same as the last time everyone else ganged up on them and bombed them into oblivion.)
Honestly they remind me of the Cardassians more than anything...but then I am biased as such a huge Cardassian fan.
The Cardassians got dangerously close to Scenario #2--but pulled back from the brink as a combination of their own decision and the Federation choosing to have mercy unlike the Turei.
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A cultural bias that the Starfleet military justice system evidently agrees with. That's my entire point: your interpretation is distinctly the minority opinion in-universe.
Well no, upholding the Prime Directive would work fine (but would make the plot point moot )
Okay, I think you misunderstood me up there. I meant that upholding the Prime Directive is the default position. If you're just studying some prewarp society and A) there's no outside-context problem like an asteroid collision or a Cardassian annexation attempt happening and you avoid being detected, there's no reason to even think about the Prime Directive because there's no reason not to follow it.
Just like the filters on the transporter are only brought up when either A) they need to make sure guests lose their weapons in transit (DS9: "To the Death") or there's an infection or what-have-you that the filters can't screen out.
Well, there have been two aspects of Kobali behaviour impacting lives of Federation citizens, which would allow Starfleet to intervene (and likely insist on some restitutions and not take the Kobali side)
(and I still think a case could be argued for anyone carrying out General Order 24...)
I disagree. For the Federation, completely glassing a life-bearing world and rendering a sapient species extinct is and should be the option of absolute last resort, and whatever their flaws the Kobali do not present a sufficient clear and present danger to completely obliterate them. (Even if they did turn on us, Starfleet could bomb them back to prewarp with their eyes closed.)
So by that rational, in this instance, the Federation should simply stop anyone else getting involved with the Kobali Vaadwaur conflict (and arguably has no moral authority to assert in the Delta Quadrant) although that contradicts the above acknowledgement that the Federation does have business for seeking reparations... If the Federation needs to be allying with anyone, it's the Vaadwaur...
Pretty much agreed. Of all the species currently active in the Delta Quadrant the Vaadwaur are the only one even approaching the level of a first-tier power other than the Borg and Voth, and unlike those two there's a few relatively straightforward ways to bring them over to our side. But it's going to take the Alliance taking its collective head out of its TRIBBLE and dealing with the Kobali in a practical, realistic manner.
I meant the good in their souls, their interactions with us - just because you don't see it as such doesn't mean others don't
I think you've had the OP and nobody else agreeing with you that there is any good in their souls. In any other franchise the Kobali would definitively be the villains.
Apples and Oranges. Phlox is a Denobulan Doctor on an exchange with Earth (mentioned in 'Broken Bow', I believe). He did not take the same Oath as Human Doctors.
Speaking as somebody whose dad was once an exchange officer attached to the Royal Australian Navy, it's apples and apples. As an exchange officer Phlox is required to perform any duties that do not negatively impact his home state as if he was an actual native-born officer of United Earth. So yes, he is going to have to follow human medical ethics.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Starsword, I do at least think there is a chance for the Kobali to be negotiated with so in that sense I can see some good in them that I cannot see in the Borg Collective (where IMO unless a drone can be safely liberated, they should be killed without any qualms...liberated individuals must then be treated with the rights of individuals unless their programming reasserts itself dangerously). I don't see them as unadulterated evil and think a fair accommodation can be reached. But I do think they have to give ground first to the Vaadwaur, with Starfleet present to ensure the Vaadwaur hold up their end of the bargain and do not go for unnecessary casualties in the process.
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Organ donation is basically the same thing. Part of the dead body lives in the new host.
And we do not know if those donated organs contain more than just flesh and blood.
Starsword, I do at least think there is a chance for the Kobali to be negotiated with so in that sense I can see some good in them that I cannot see in the Borg Collective (where IMO unless a drone can be safely liberated, they should be killed without any qualms...liberated individuals must then be treated with the rights of individuals unless their programming reasserts itself dangerously). I don't see them as unadulterated evil and think a fair accommodation can be reached. But I do think they have to give ground first to the Vaadwaur, with Starfleet present to ensure the Vaadwaur hold up their end of the bargain and do not go for unnecessary casualties in the process.
Yeah, I think we're on the same page there, gulberat. I wasn't comparing the Kobali to the Borg, I said that the Vaadwaur weren't like the Borg. (Or the Voth.) At least a couple of the lower-level Kobali (e.g. somebody you run across in the Temple on your first visit) express something resembling regret at having to reproduce off of other people's dead.
Organ donation is basically the same thing. Part of the dead body lives in the new host.
And we do not know if those donated organs contain more than just flesh and blood.
please, keep to the topic.
Somebody brought that up in the thread in Galactic News Network. I called bull**** that time, too. Speaking as a registered bone marrow donor and frequent blood donor, the difference between organs or even blood and what the Kobali do is that the organ or blood donor has consented in writing to have their body used for that purpose. The Kobali just take what they want, and damn the wishes of the person or his loved ones.
See, this is the biggest problem with the Kobali. They insist on respect for their own culture and beliefs but exhibit absolutely none in return.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I think you've had the OP and nobody else agreeing with you that there is any good in their souls. In any other franchise the Kobali would definitively be the villains.
In this thread? Maybe, but that isn't an indicator of the opinions of the entire STO playerbase after all - some might agree with me, some with you, some might have other opinions entirely, and so on. You just have to accept that some like the Kobali for a few of the same reasons you despise them for, hehe
But anyway, I disagree on the villains aspect; if you only think of them as such, that's all you'll see. But if you get into their situation, there's always more than meets the eye morality-wise - you just have to give them the chance in the first place. Far as I've seen, you haven't based on your initial opinion, but that's your loss imo. But that's all I have to say about it
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
In this thread? Maybe, but that isn't an indicator of the opinions of the entire USA after all - some might agree with me, some with you, some might have other opinions entirely, and so on. You just have to accept that some like the Confederacy for a few of the same reasons you despise it for, hehe
But anyway, I disagree on the villains aspect; if you only think of the Confederates as such, that's all you'll see. But if you get into their situation, there's always more than meets the eye morality-wise - you just have to give them the chance in the first place. Far as I've seen, you haven't based on your initial opinion, but that's your loss imo. But that's all I have to say about it
Changed it a bit to make a point. Moral relativism is uncool.
In this thread? Maybe, but that isn't an indicator of the opinions of the entire STO playerbase after all - some might agree with me, some with you, some might have other opinions entirely, and so on.
But I disagree on the villains aspect; if you only think of them as such, that's all you'll see. But if you get into their situation, there's always more than meets the eye - you just have to give them the chance in the first place. Far as I've seen, you haven't based on your initial opinion, but that's your loss imo
The Kobali had their chance back in VOY. They blew it. The Federation gave them another chance early in the Kobali Front. They blew that one, too. The Federation gave them another chance and they managed to blow that one twice as of the latest FE.
How many chances should they get?
The only actual reason for supporting the Kobali is that they were fighting against the Vaadwaur. And on that note, Maxim 29: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less." Just because our interests coincided for an in-game month or so does not mean they are or should be our BFFs. With the rise of Eldex the status quo has changed, and not in the Kobalis' favor.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Kobali had their chance back in VOY. They blew it. The Federation gave them another chance early in the Kobali Front. They blew that one, too. The Federation gave them another chance and they managed to blow that one twice as of the latest FE.
How many chances should they get?
The only actual reason for supporting the Kobali is that they were fighting against the Vaadwaur. And on that note, Maxim 29: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less." Just because our interests coincided for an in-game month or so does not mean they are or should be our BFFs. With the rise of Eldex the status quo has changed, and not in the Kobalis' favor.
They may have blowed their chance in your eyes, but what about mine? I'm just saying, it isn't a fact that they're bad guys by default. Not good guys either (it's more complicated of course), but still
A cultural bias that the Starfleet military justice system evidently agrees with. That's my entire point: your interpretation is distinctly the minority opinion in-universe.
Yes, but it is still what the Prime Directive essentially demands: Neutrality/Non-interference, even when one party is a political ally. Whether that rule actually gets followed in-universe, is not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm making, is By the Book, the Starfleet ship should simply turn round and leave the area. Two criteria listed as prohibited interference, which support a stance of non-interferance between the Kobali and the Vaadwaur are: Helping a society escape the negative consequences of its own actions, and, Interfering in the internal affairs of a society. I'm not denying that those examples have been broken in-universe, I'm simply pointing out that those criteria should mean a ship should avoid engaging in the situation, unless acting upon formal complains received by the families Ballard or Kim (which would then, as mentioned, involve diplomacy against the Kobali, not in assistance of them...)
Okay, I think you misunderstood me up there. I meant that upholding the Prime Directive is the default position. If you're just studying some prewarp society and A) there's no outside-context problem like an asteroid collision or a Cardassian annexation attempt happening and you avoid being detected, there's no reason to even think about the Prime Directive because there's no reason not to follow it.
Just like the filters on the transporter are only brought up when either A) they need to make sure guests lose their weapons in transit (DS9: "To the Death") or there's an infection or what-have-you that the filters can't screen out.
And as above, I agree that it is a default position, I'm also pointing out that upholding that By the Book line, would seriously curtail plot options, so I can understand why it is not always followed...
I disagree. For the Federation, completely glassing a life-bearing world and rendering a sapient species extinct is and should be the option of absolute last resort, and whatever their flaws the Kobali do not present a sufficient clear and present danger to completely obliterate them. (Even if they did turn on us, Starfleet could bomb them back to prewarp with their eyes closed.)
And I agree, it should be absolutely the last resort. The point I was making, is that by the description given of General Order 24, and Fleet Captain Garth's attempt to legitimize his execution of it, there is a criteria set, to which a Starship captain is entrusted to be able to make that decision: If the planet/race in question are deemed to pose a threat to the Federation. As mentioned upthread, my belief is that the massive levels of dishonesty shown by the Kobali show that they cannot be trusted, and given their practices, they could be considered a threat to the Federation in the future, should they become hostile, or should they keep recycling the bodies of Federation citizens (as this is the mentionedcriteria by which the Prime Directive can be broken: A material injustice involving a Federation citizen would occur absent the interference. [Edit to add] I'm not suggesting that the Kobali should get glassed by Starfleet (although they certainly deserve whatever the Vaadwaur can throw at them) I'm just illustrating that General Order 24 is an instance where the Prime Directive not only can be ignored, but could potentially be applied to this situation, if Someone were to consider the Kobali as posing a threat to the Federation.
By all means one should endeavor to be well informed, and to understand others as best as possible, but that isn't the same as relativism. While ignorance can occur in those with absolute morals it can occur just as easily in people who espouse relativism, and the two should not be equated.
At least for me, absolute morals implies with it the need for very serious due diligence to make sure I don't back the wrong horse or do something terrible because if I do, I must acknowledge full accountability for my actions versus the truth.
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By all means one should endeavor to be well informed, and to understand others as best as possible, but that isn't the same as relativism. While ignorance can occur in those with absolute morals it can occur just as easily in people who espouse relativism, and the two should not be equated.
At least for me, absolute morals implies with it the need for very serious due diligence to make sure I don't back the wrong horse or do something terrible because if I do, I must acknowledge full accountability for my actions versus the truth.
And I'm not certainly saying or implying that everyone should say that opinions don't matter period just because they're opinions (if that's the bottom line of relativism), but merely to make a better effort to understand other points-of-views before stating them. I do it by default, and recognize it isn't that easy for others, but would like it to happen; that's all really
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
They may have blowed their chance in your eyes, but what about mine? I'm just saying, it isn't a fact that they're bad guys by default. Not good guys either (it's more complicated of course), but still
Frankly, I fail to see how sir, since it allows you to understand other viewpoints (which is pretty important in the world imo)
But what about what the Prime Directive dictates? What about the rules which these officers are supposed to uphold and obey? I'm not saying there's no flexibility in the rule, but what I am saying, is that the rule does not support Starfleet acting in support of the Kobali, for reasons I specifically highlighted immediately above...
I think you've had the OP and nobody else agreeing with you that there is any good in their souls. In any other franchise the Kobali would definitively be the villains.
I think there's good along with the bad, as I already explained at length. To sum up, the kobali are behaving like children, which is both unfortunate and correctable.
I hold that the Kobali have engaged in acts of dubious morality. They're right on the line, but neither their crimes nor their threat level warrant outright hostility. I believe it will be more useful to teach them to not act with dubious morals, even though this might fly in the face of the Prime Directive. Whether or not we will contradict the PD is another question, but I am of the opinion that we should.
Frankly, I fail to see how sir, since it allows you to understand other viewpoints (which is pretty important in the world imo)
Understanding other viewpoints is a function of empathy and open-mindedness, not moral relativism. I can (given a sufficiently accurate description) understand why the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice, but based on other things I understand, I conclude that what they did was wrong, and that I would be right in attempting to convince them otherwise or, if necessary, forcefully interfering.
Understanding other viewpoints is a prerequisite to assembling an absolute set of morals, and of modifying them as better ways of thinking are discovered.
Curious about something I probably 'clicked through'. After the Kobali assume a new host, would there be a new consciousness the new Kobali spirit or would it be the old host who was just brought back from the dead? In either case would they have memory of the process of being reborn??
From what I understand, it's still the same "person." However, as part of the process, the person who is being "reborn" loses most or all memory of who they were previously. In some cases, such as in Dust to Dust, the person does remember their past life, at least temporarily. During two rebirth processes we've observed, Jhet'laya and Keten, both remembered things about their past at first, but forgot some details. Other details remained. According to the Kobali, this is not typical: reborn kobali generally remember nothing of their past life.
I think that from their inception the nature of the Kobali was meant to challenge us, the audience. Humans venerate their dead; Funerary rites can be traced to the origins of our civilizations. Even without religious affiliation the handling of the dead or confronting our own mortality is largely taboo.
Compounding this repugnance is the matter of choice. We pride ourselves on the notion of free will. Death with dignity and the idea of dying on our own terms remain a social issue debated by governments the world over.
I haven't been able to decide if we were supposed to instinctively loathe the Kobali for their practices or withhold our personal bias and try to accept them because it was "right" to honour the customs of other sentient races. The duplicity demonstrated in their dealings with the Voyager crew suggest the former not the latter.
I don't feel they shoehorned particularly well into the role of the victim or ally and the narrative continually demonstrating their propensity for deception and exploitation of other races only clarifies the initial assessment.
Voyager's passage through the Delta quadrant left Starfleet with an obligation to rectify the consequences of that journey. While passing references were made to correcting those mistakes I saw little if any of this moral obligation put into practice. Our own foray into Delta felt more like saddling up with Scrooge McDuck to shyster the shinies from the ignorant locals.
The larger Alliance doesn't have the same culpability as Starfleet but given the story felt largely Fedcentric I would have expected some efforts made at restitution or amends.
The Vaadwaur people were victims of their own hubris. But humanity in reality and in the Star Trek Universe have paid the same price repeatedly. It should be harder to take the moral high ground when your enemy mirrors yourself.
DaveyNY suggested that a peacekeeping mission might have been a more appropriate posture under the circumstances particularly after the stasis reveal. Instead the Alliance accepted the assurances of the Kobali (Who had just been discovered harboring an insidious secret) that repatriating the Vaadwaur stasis pods would do nothing to curtail Vaadwaur aggression. Diplomacy under an armistice would have been an appropriate action but the immediate adoption and defence of Kobali interests would have made this almost impossible.
I haven't completed the DR story arc but there is clearly a distinction between the Vaadwaur government and individuals under that regime. I don't see that distinction as clearly among the Kobali and think less of them for it. Every Kobali is complicit in their propagation and in preserving their secrets.
The Vaadwaur are a militaristic society, highly aggressive, convinced of their own racial superiority, and harbouring deeply-felt grudges based on historical events.
Remind you of anyone else? Hint: it starts with "R", has seven letters, and rhymes with "omulan".
Also reminiscent of the history of another group you might recall - starts with "An", ends in "dorian"?
I don't think we have "good guys" or "bad guys" here. The Vaadwaur aren't exactly clean here, in that their first response to finding out who was living on their old stasis facility (conditioned by their rather, ah, aggressive culture) seems to have been to shoot first and not ask questions at any point. Meanwhile, the Kobali, rather than seeking help, proceeded to continue their own age-old practice of lying through their reconstructed teeth.
(As a side note, given the Federation's apparent lack of practice with duplicity, I recommend any negotiating teams sent to deal with the Kobali be composed primarily of Romulans and Ferengi. If anybody can spot a lie, it's them.)
(As a side note, given the Federation's apparent lack of practice with duplicity, I recommend any negotiating teams sent to deal with the Kobali be composed primarily of Romulans and Ferengi. If anybody can spot a lie, it's them.)
Oh, they tried a Romulan in my stories.
She lost her patience with the serial mendacity on day 1, and ended up executing Q'Nel for being an annoying serial war criminal.
(As a side note, given the Federation's apparent lack of practice with duplicity, I recommend any negotiating teams sent to deal with the Kobali be composed primarily of Romulans and Ferengi. If anybody can spot a lie, it's them.)
You left out Cardassians. Although, probably less so than the Romulans or Ferengi.
I agree that after finding out about what the Kobali were up to, the Federation should have adopted a more neutral position. Try to broker an armistice between the Kobali and Vaadwaur, but not provide direct support to the Kobali. They are into some shady dealings.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
I actually think the Cardassians are best suited for dealing with the Vaadwaur (see "The Blood of Dragons" for what the precursors of that could look like). But since they are not a fully independent power, their ability to engage in long-distance foreign relations is questionable.
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(As a side note, given the Federation's apparent lack of practice with duplicity, I recommend any negotiating teams sent to deal with the Kobali be composed primarily of Romulans and Ferengi. If anybody can spot a lie, it's them.)
Realistically the Federation's got plenty of experience with duplicity precisely because they have to deal with the Romulans and Ferengi. Even if doing the duplicity to other people isn't their style, they've certainly been on the receiving end enough times.
Just don't let Jiro Sugihara anywhere near it. In fact, I say we fire him (preferably out of a torpedo launcher) just to be on the safe side. I suggest using a strong, well-trained telepath like Lwaxana Troi to lead the negotiation team.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Just don't let Jiro Sugihara anywhere near it. In fact, I say we fire him (preferably out of a torpedo launcher) just to be on the safe side. I suggest using a strong, well-trained telepath like Lwaxana Troi to lead the negotiation team.
She'd be married to the kobali general within the week and inviting Quinn and the player to a traditional betazoid wedding.
assuming she's actually even still alive...she was pretty old during TNG, and that was nearly 50 years ago
Well, I did say "like Lwaxana Troi". But considering that humans can readily live 150 years in Star Trek, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for a Betazoid. Though it probably wouldn't happen in-game because Majel Barrett's dead.
Anyway, the idea with using a telepath is so that we can quite literally keep the Kobali honest.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well, I did say "like Lwaxana Troi". But considering that humans can readily live 150 years in Star Trek, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for a Betazoid. Though it probably wouldn't happen in-game because Majel Barrett's dead.
Anyway, the idea with using a telepath is so that we can quite literally keep the Kobali honest.
There's still Deanna Troi
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
He serves in the UEF Starfleet, he's subject to Human laws as an exchange officer. Just like Riker was subject to Klingon laws when he was on exchange in TNG.
Although, different legal systems are possible...
OK, you have a point, but Archer and the rest of the crew except T'pol are Humans and UEF citizens. Archer is CLEARLY in the wrong by not just letting Phlox commit genocide by negligence, but openly praising him.
@trek21, you're so laughably wrong here it isn't even funny. You are insisting, repeatedly, that a species whose standard policy towards dissent is emotional and relationship abuse, is somehow better than the Vaadwaur, who are garden-variety nationalistic xenophobes.
Your point so far is like saying, when confronted with a Russian policeman hitting a man who regularly beats his wife and kids, that you'd not only beat up the cop but you would view the wife beater as a good man and help him continue to treat his family like scum.
This has very disturbing real-world implications, and is the main reason why I refuse to quote you here.
This is one circumstance where I would find it acceptable to violate the Prime Directive, which Archer sorta created at the end of the episode with three-gendered aliens. However, please learn the legal definition of genocide. It is where a party deliberately seek to expel and entire community, exterminate them, or eliminate their ability to reproduce (based on what the TRIBBLE did in WWII). What Archer did was allow nature to win out; morally ambiguous and not the decision I might have made, but not genocide, negligent or otherwise.
On a separate note, to those using Picard as an example, he only acted in Pen Pals after Data's friend asked Data for help:
Oh Data, your whisper from the dark has turned into a plea...
We cannot ignore.
He chose to interpret the call as a distress call and request for help (and I take the view that that was his intention when he asked Data to cut off comms), thus overriding the Prime Directive.
Moving on to your second point... what Trek21 is saying is that we shouldn't ccondemn everyone of the wifebeater's culture or nationality as wifebeaters. And I must say it is hypocritical to criticise painting all the Vaadwaur as the same while doing exactly that with the Kobali.
Also reminiscent of the history of another group you might recall - starts with "An", ends in "dorian"?
I don't think we have "good guys" or "bad guys" here. The Vaadwaur aren't exactly clean here, in that their first response to finding out who was living on their old stasis facility (conditioned by their rather, ah, aggressive culture) seems to have been to shoot first and not ask questions at any point. Meanwhile, the Kobali, rather than seeking help, proceeded to continue their own age-old practice of lying through their reconstructed teeth.
(As a side note, given the Federation's apparent lack of practice with duplicity, I recommend any negotiating teams sent to deal with the Kobali be composed primarily of Romulans and Ferengi. If anybody can spot a lie, it's them.)
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Honestly they remind me of the Cardassians more than anything...but then I am biased as such a huge Cardassian fan.
The Cardassians got dangerously close to Scenario #2--but pulled back from the brink as a combination of their own decision and the Federation choosing to have mercy unlike the Turei.
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Okay, I think you misunderstood me up there. I meant that upholding the Prime Directive is the default position. If you're just studying some prewarp society and A) there's no outside-context problem like an asteroid collision or a Cardassian annexation attempt happening and
Just like the filters on the transporter are only brought up when either A) they need to make sure guests lose their weapons in transit (DS9: "To the Death") or
Yes, exactly.
I disagree. For the Federation, completely glassing a life-bearing world and rendering a sapient species extinct is and should be the option of absolute last resort, and whatever their flaws the Kobali do not present a sufficient clear and present danger to completely obliterate them. (Even if they did turn on us, Starfleet could bomb them back to prewarp with their eyes closed.)
Pretty much agreed. Of all the species currently active in the Delta Quadrant the Vaadwaur are the only one even approaching the level of a first-tier power other than the Borg and Voth, and unlike those two there's a few relatively straightforward ways to bring them over to our side. But it's going to take the Alliance taking its collective head out of its TRIBBLE and dealing with the Kobali in a practical, realistic manner.
I think you've had the OP and nobody else agreeing with you that there is any good in their souls. In any other franchise the Kobali would definitively be the villains.
Speaking as somebody whose dad was once an exchange officer attached to the Royal Australian Navy, it's apples and apples. As an exchange officer Phlox is required to perform any duties that do not negatively impact his home state as if he was an actual native-born officer of United Earth. So yes, he is going to have to follow human medical ethics.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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And we do not know if those donated organs contain more than just flesh and blood.
please, keep to the topic.
Somebody brought that up in the thread in Galactic News Network. I called bull**** that time, too. Speaking as a registered bone marrow donor and frequent blood donor, the difference between organs or even blood and what the Kobali do is that the organ or blood donor has consented in writing to have their body used for that purpose. The Kobali just take what they want, and damn the wishes of the person or his loved ones.
See, this is the biggest problem with the Kobali. They insist on respect for their own culture and beliefs but exhibit absolutely none in return.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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But anyway, I disagree on the villains aspect; if you only think of them as such, that's all you'll see. But if you get into their situation, there's always more than meets the eye morality-wise - you just have to give them the chance in the first place. Far as I've seen, you haven't based on your initial opinion, but that's your loss imo. But that's all I have to say about it
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Changed it a bit to make a point. Moral relativism is uncool.
The Kobali had their chance back in VOY. They blew it. The Federation gave them another chance early in the Kobali Front. They blew that one, too. The Federation gave them another chance and they managed to blow that one twice as of the latest FE.
How many chances should they get?
The only actual reason for supporting the Kobali is that they were fighting against the Vaadwaur. And on that note, Maxim 29: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less." Just because our interests coincided for an in-game month or so does not mean they are or should be our BFFs. With the rise of Eldex the status quo has changed, and not in the Kobalis' favor.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And as above, I agree that it is a default position, I'm also pointing out that upholding that By the Book line, would seriously curtail plot options, so I can understand why it is not always followed...
And I agree, it should be absolutely the last resort. The point I was making, is that by the description given of General Order 24, and Fleet Captain Garth's attempt to legitimize his execution of it, there is a criteria set, to which a Starship captain is entrusted to be able to make that decision: If the planet/race in question are deemed to pose a threat to the Federation. As mentioned upthread, my belief is that the massive levels of dishonesty shown by the Kobali show that they cannot be trusted, and given their practices, they could be considered a threat to the Federation in the future, should they become hostile, or should they keep recycling the bodies of Federation citizens (as this is the mentionedcriteria by which the Prime Directive can be broken: A material injustice involving a Federation citizen would occur absent the interference. [Edit to add] I'm not suggesting that the Kobali should get glassed by Starfleet (although they certainly deserve whatever the Vaadwaur can throw at them) I'm just illustrating that General Order 24 is an instance where the Prime Directive not only can be ignored, but could potentially be applied to this situation, if Someone were to consider the Kobali as posing a threat to the Federation.
At least for me, absolute morals implies with it the need for very serious due diligence to make sure I don't back the wrong horse or do something terrible because if I do, I must acknowledge full accountability for my actions versus the truth.
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Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
But what about what the Prime Directive dictates? What about the rules which these officers are supposed to uphold and obey? I'm not saying there's no flexibility in the rule, but what I am saying, is that the rule does not support Starfleet acting in support of the Kobali, for reasons I specifically highlighted immediately above...
I hold that the Kobali have engaged in acts of dubious morality. They're right on the line, but neither their crimes nor their threat level warrant outright hostility. I believe it will be more useful to teach them to not act with dubious morals, even though this might fly in the face of the Prime Directive. Whether or not we will contradict the PD is another question, but I am of the opinion that we should.
Understanding other viewpoints is a function of empathy and open-mindedness, not moral relativism. I can (given a sufficiently accurate description) understand why the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice, but based on other things I understand, I conclude that what they did was wrong, and that I would be right in attempting to convince them otherwise or, if necessary, forcefully interfering.
Understanding other viewpoints is a prerequisite to assembling an absolute set of morals, and of modifying them as better ways of thinking are discovered.
Compounding this repugnance is the matter of choice. We pride ourselves on the notion of free will. Death with dignity and the idea of dying on our own terms remain a social issue debated by governments the world over.
I haven't been able to decide if we were supposed to instinctively loathe the Kobali for their practices or withhold our personal bias and try to accept them because it was "right" to honour the customs of other sentient races. The duplicity demonstrated in their dealings with the Voyager crew suggest the former not the latter.
I don't feel they shoehorned particularly well into the role of the victim or ally and the narrative continually demonstrating their propensity for deception and exploitation of other races only clarifies the initial assessment.
Voyager's passage through the Delta quadrant left Starfleet with an obligation to rectify the consequences of that journey. While passing references were made to correcting those mistakes I saw little if any of this moral obligation put into practice. Our own foray into Delta felt more like saddling up with Scrooge McDuck to shyster the shinies from the ignorant locals.
The larger Alliance doesn't have the same culpability as Starfleet but given the story felt largely Fedcentric I would have expected some efforts made at restitution or amends.
The Vaadwaur people were victims of their own hubris. But humanity in reality and in the Star Trek Universe have paid the same price repeatedly. It should be harder to take the moral high ground when your enemy mirrors yourself.
DaveyNY suggested that a peacekeeping mission might have been a more appropriate posture under the circumstances particularly after the stasis reveal. Instead the Alliance accepted the assurances of the Kobali (Who had just been discovered harboring an insidious secret) that repatriating the Vaadwaur stasis pods would do nothing to curtail Vaadwaur aggression. Diplomacy under an armistice would have been an appropriate action but the immediate adoption and defence of Kobali interests would have made this almost impossible.
I haven't completed the DR story arc but there is clearly a distinction between the Vaadwaur government and individuals under that regime. I don't see that distinction as clearly among the Kobali and think less of them for it. Every Kobali is complicit in their propagation and in preserving their secrets.
I don't think we have "good guys" or "bad guys" here. The Vaadwaur aren't exactly clean here, in that their first response to finding out who was living on their old stasis facility (conditioned by their rather, ah, aggressive culture) seems to have been to shoot first and not ask questions at any point. Meanwhile, the Kobali, rather than seeking help, proceeded to continue their own age-old practice of lying through their reconstructed teeth.
(As a side note, given the Federation's apparent lack of practice with duplicity, I recommend any negotiating teams sent to deal with the Kobali be composed primarily of Romulans and Ferengi. If anybody can spot a lie, it's them.)
Oh, they tried a Romulan in my stories.
She lost her patience with the serial mendacity on day 1, and ended up executing Q'Nel for being an annoying serial war criminal.
You left out Cardassians. Although, probably less so than the Romulans or Ferengi.
I agree that after finding out about what the Kobali were up to, the Federation should have adopted a more neutral position. Try to broker an armistice between the Kobali and Vaadwaur, but not provide direct support to the Kobali. They are into some shady dealings.
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Realistically the Federation's got plenty of experience with duplicity precisely because they have to deal with the Romulans and Ferengi. Even if doing the duplicity to other people isn't their style, they've certainly been on the receiving end enough times.
Just don't let Jiro Sugihara anywhere near it. In fact, I say we fire him (preferably out of a torpedo launcher) just to be on the safe side. I suggest using a strong, well-trained telepath like Lwaxana Troi to lead the negotiation team.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Please. No.
Just send the Gorn ambadassador, s/he's OP as heck, nobody'll dare to displease a 10-foot lizard that tears apart Jem'Hadar bare-handed.
Well, I did say "like Lwaxana Troi". But considering that humans can readily live 150 years in Star Trek, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for a Betazoid. Though it probably wouldn't happen in-game because Majel Barrett's dead.
Anyway, the idea with using a telepath is so that we can quite literally keep the Kobali honest.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There's still Deanna Troi
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
This is one circumstance where I would find it acceptable to violate the Prime Directive, which Archer sorta created at the end of the episode with three-gendered aliens. However, please learn the legal definition of genocide. It is where a party deliberately seek to expel and entire community, exterminate them, or eliminate their ability to reproduce (based on what the TRIBBLE did in WWII). What Archer did was allow nature to win out; morally ambiguous and not the decision I might have made, but not genocide, negligent or otherwise.
On a separate note, to those using Picard as an example, he only acted in Pen Pals after Data's friend asked Data for help:
He chose to interpret the call as a distress call and request for help (and I take the view that that was his intention when he asked Data to cut off comms), thus overriding the Prime Directive.
Moving on to your second point... what Trek21 is saying is that we shouldn't ccondemn everyone of the wifebeater's culture or nationality as wifebeaters. And I must say it is hypocritical to criticise painting all the Vaadwaur as the same while doing exactly that with the Kobali.
On an unrelated note... why a Russian policeman?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I'll call Garak.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood