First off, even when you think they should have done something this way, that doesn't give you right to think that you should have period. That's pressing your opinion onto others
Why not? I've got a right to my opinion, and my opinion includes the idea that there is objective good and evil in the world and that any form of cultural relativism is horse****.
Except that the Vaadwaur are worse than the Kobali. Even with their suffering, they go to such lengths as killing a chef to make a point; no faction is comfortable with the Kobali's ways, but that latter part is unforgivable to any sentient being. Not to mention, even when Eldex found out about the Bluegills, he just wanted those bugs gone, detested working with officers, and still had no problem with destroying opposition (see his destruction of the ship in an episode).
Gaul shot a chef to make a point. He had to have his lieutenants infested with bluegills to control them, suggesting they wouldn't have willingly gone along with his plans. The mere fact that Eldex was willing to work with the player to mutual advantage proves that there's room for accommodation with the Vaadwaur people as a whole.
So, no, the Vaadwaur are not worse than the Kobali. A Vaadwaur was worse than the Kobali and that Vaadwaur is dead and gone.
And edit, turning it to your advantage is exactly what the Feds/KDF/RR can't do, because no one officer has the right to make those decisions; their governments do, and they have many other factors than complex moral discussions to consider. Maybe you don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean your way is right
Yeah, it is right, because under my solution everybody except the Kobali come out ahead. It's that pesky "needs of the many" thing again.
I'm advocating following the Prime Directive as written. The outcome, is not my concern, as the situation itself is not my concern, due to legally-enforced neutrality... As Kirk said, that is a starship captain's most solemn duty...
Guess what: Despite that line, Kirk broke the Prime Directive more times than I can count.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Why not? I've got a right to my opinion, and my opinion includes the idea that there is objective good and evil in the world and that any form of cultural relativism is horse****.
Gaul shot a chef to make a point. He had to have his lieutenants infested with bluegills to control them, suggesting they wouldn't have willingly gone along with his plans. The mere fact that Eldex was willing to work with the player to mutual advantage proves that there's room for accommodation with the Vaadwaur people as a whole.
So, no, the Vaadwaur are not worse than the Kobali. A Vaadwaur was worse than the Kobali and that Vaadwaur is dead and gone.
Whose orders? That idiot Benzite's? I either outrank her or I'm not even part of the same chain of command. She doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Yeah, it is right, because under my solution everybody except the Kobali come out ahead. It's that pesky "needs of the many" thing again.
I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion. I'm saying the apparent problem is, your wording makes you come across as 'this should have happened, period, no arguments about it or you're wrong', which isn't really acceptable.
And Kobali being worse than Vaadwaur is only your opinion - it is not a fact. Which, again, you were making sound like fact, at least to me.
As for orders, the Benzite serves under Kim, who who only meet after the ranking officers at the Alliance tell us to go help the Kobali, and we, the ideal officers who want to help, do so no matter the rank we do have.
Your opinion - doesn't mean it should be done.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Guess what: Despite that line, Kirk broke the Prime Directive more times than I can count.
Which on the one hand, does not invalidate the Prime Directive, nor the idea that a Starfleet officers swears to uphold it with their very life, and on the other, simply confirms my point about American Media archetypes
I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion. I'm saying the apparent problem is, your wording makes you come across as 'this should have happened, period, no arguments about it or you're wrong', which isn't really acceptable.
And Kobali being worse than Vaadwaur is only your opinion - it is not a fact. Which, again, you were making sound like fact, at least to me.
As for orders, the Benzite serves under Kim, who who only meet after the ranking officers at the Alliance tell us to go help the Kobali, and we, the ideal officers who want to help, do so no matter the rank we do have.
Your opinion - doesn't mean it should be done.
I base my opinion on hard evidence. That's the difference.
And as far as the higher-ups, a good officer listens to their subordinates' input and makes adjustments to plan based on the situation on the ground. The situation is not what the Kobali claimed it to be except on the broadest strategic level and never has been, and is now drastically different from what it used to be. Ergo, the plan needs to change.
Which on the one hand, does not invalidate the Prime Directive, nor the idea that a Starfleet officers swears to uphold it with their very life, and on the other, simply confirms my point about American Media archetypes
Or, it shows that Kirk had his head up his TRIBBLE that day, that Picard and Janeway had their heads up their asses every day, and that despite the wording of the Prime Directive Starfleet personnel are expected to use their own judgment and evaluate things on a case-by-case basis, just like with anything else,* rather than dogmatically adhering to the Prime Directive regardless of the situation. Now, which of those last two is more in line with the behavior of the average Starfleet officer in the shows?
* With the stipulation, of course, that anything they do is subject to review by the chain of command, and since nobody apparently had any problem with Kirk repeatedly telling the PD to go f**k itself on ethical grounds, or with Picard when he broke the Prime Directive nine times by "The Drumhead"...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Which on the one hand, does not invalidate the Prime Directive, nor the idea that a Starfleet officers swears to uphold it with their very life, and on the other, simply confirms my point about American Media archetypes
But the Prime Directive he was talking about was the 1960s don't go revealing yourself to pre-spaceflight races (unless they already know about aliens) and don't pick sides in a living culture's internal issues or otherwise TRIBBLE with them (stagnate cultures under dictatorship's being an exception as well as in the event of global extinction events) version.
Which also lets him meddle in an external dispute between two species especially (or at least it seems) if one or both of them start dragging other people into it.
not the 1980s Don't mess with anyone ever even to help them and let the lesser pre-warp cultures die version.
I base my opinion on hard evidence. That's the difference.
And as far as the higher-ups, a good officer listens to their subordinates' input and makes adjustments to plan based on the situation on the ground. The situation is not what the Kobali claimed it to be except on the broadest strategic level and never has been, and is now drastically different from what it used to be. Ergo, the plan needs to change.
Hard evidence is all well and good, but per opinion and viewpoints, some of us form different views from that hard evidence, as well as different ways of handling the hard evidence once the opinion/decision is set. One person would not trust the Kobali at all because of that evidence, while the other would hold off making a decision till all the facts are there, and some wouldn't exactly hold the evidence against them anymore than it was needed (and wouldn't let it taint further interactions)
And so on - this is why some don't hate the Kobali, because they rather focus on their good rather than the bad (this is where the compromise and halfway stuff stems from), the whole moral bit about their culture aside. Or for other reasons
That's all
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Hard evidence is all well and good, but per opinion and viewpoints, some of us form different views from that hard evidence, as well as different ways of handling the hard evidence once the opinion/decision is set. One person would not trust the Kobali at all because of that evidence, while the other would hold off making a decision till all the facts are there, and some wouldn't exactly hold the evidence against them anymore than it was needed (and wouldn't let it taint further interactions)
And so on - this is why some don't hate the Kobali, because they rather focus on their good rather than the bad (this is where the compromise and halfway stuff stems from), the whole moral bit about their culture aside. Or for other reasons
That's all
Let's turn that on its head, shall we? You're insisting on the bad of the Vaadwaur and ignoring the good. This is where the compromise and halfway stuff stems from, the whole moral bit about their culture aside.
Don't raise questions you can't handle the answers to.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Let's turn that on its head, shall we? You're insisting on the bad of the Vaadwaur and ignoring the good. This is where the compromise and halfway stuff stems from, the whole moral bit about their culture aside.
Don't raise questions you can't handle the answers to.
Probably because, thus far with the storyline (our major look into their culture), there's very little that wasn't Gaul or Eldex, and thus very little good to balance out the bad. Yes, admittedly those aspects were done by their hand, but without further proof, how do you know they're as you claim? Or as I suspect somewhat?
Not to mention the whole opinion aspect - what some consider bad, others consider good, and vice-versa
And I can handle it fine lol
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Having gone and watched the original Kobali episode, I can say my opinion of them has dropped somewhat from the heavy-handed tactics they used to attempt to retrieve Jhet'laya (or however you spell her name). I could understand if one desperate father decided to take her back by force--that's an individual failing--but an organized attack seems stupid and brutish.
That being said, I haven't seen them do anything like that extreme in DR. They've acted in decidedly underhanded ways, which I've already told my opinion of, but they don't seem as belligerent.
When your time is up, your time is up. That is natural law. Everything in a linear existance decays.
It doesent matter if you are a person, a planet, or an entire species of people.
The Kobali's time is clearly up, and they should die, as all things die eventually. To stave death by their means is unnatural.
This is a logical fallacy known as appeal to nature. Whether something is natural or unnatural does not determine whether it's right or wrong. Nature is not a moral system--it's a mechanical one. You can't say it's morally right a water molecule has polarity, or that it's morally wrong that light exhibits characteristics of both waves and particles. It's not morally right that bees die after stinging when evolving a smooth stinger could solve that problem, it's just because of the way evolution works.
What gets me is the writing. We just sit back and take it when we learn that tha vaudwaar have developed an innoculation against kobali reanimation, and because the kobali are adverse to it and call it a virus, we call it a virus too.
Well, it is a virus, to the best of my knowledge. It's a pathogenic delivery system. Whether the effects are "bad" are up for debate, but it is a virus.
Yes, but sometimes taking action causes more damage than it solves - that's one of the reasons behind the Prime Directive, or at least an intended one; to prevent them causing such cultural damage. It isn't perfect, but it has been proven to be sound enough on several occasions, with of course examples for the opposite side of that argument on how it isn't sound on others
This is the main argument behind the Prime Directive, but I don't think it really holds water. The universe in general and intelligent species in particular are so complicated that it's impossible to predict the outcomes of action or inaction. You can evaluate the immediate likelihood of an outcome, but that evaluation can be wrong and even if it's right, you can't be sure what that outcome will result in later.
This is the crux of the argument for the Prime Directive, but it cuts both ways. A blanket "hands-off" approach is no less likely to lead to unwanted consequences than a blanket interference approach. Furthermore, the observer effect means that just being present to witness something will alter the outcome.
I don't ascribe to the idea that we shouldn't "interfere with the natural course of cultural evolution." It's meaningless, in my opinion. Evolution, be it natural or cultural, functions as a product of interaction. Civilizations develop in no small part because they interact with other civilizations. Like evolution by natural selection, this can mean that civilizations go extinct, but it can also mean that civilizations take on characteristics (good or bad) that they wouldn't have otherwise. Furthermore, unlike natural evolution, there's nothing stopping civilizations from incorporating elements from other civilizations that have gone extinct.
I'm with starswordc in that I don't think much of moral relativism. There is right and a wrong separate of what a culture believes is right and wrong, but different civilizations have may different pieces of that right way of doing things, so cultural development through interaction is important for the the furthering of moral behavior. It's a messy process, yes, but it's the best way we have so far.
I strongly disagree with the Prime Directive, and I think that the only reason it holds is because it has eternal plot armor from the writers. We never see "bad" outcomes because the writers don't write it that way.
Probably because, thus far with the storyline (our major look into their culture), there's very little that wasn't Gaul or Eldex, and thus very little good to balance out the bad. Yes, admittedly those aspects were done by their hand, but without further proof, how do you know they're as you claim? Or as I suspect somewhat?
As I noted before, the mere fact that the bluegills were needed indicates that the Vaadwaur high command had more restraint than Gaul and his Iconian handlers were willing to tolerate. And the Vaadwaur are like anyone else in one big respect: they don't like being used.
As I've observed many times, dealing amicably with racist imperialists is nothing new to the Federation: the Ferengi Alliance excepted, every single one of their neighbors falls into that category. Yes, the Vaads are racist and imperialist. They're also willing to work with others for mutual benefit or else the entire last third of Delta Rising's plot couldn't have happened.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
We've got three sets of requirements at issue, here; a moral obligation to do the right thing, a practical obligation to act in the interests of the Federation in the Delta Quadrant, and a legal obligation to respect the Prime Directive.
Of the three, the legal one is the most easily dealt with, I think. OK, it is Kobali culture to convert dead bodies into new Kobali... whatever one might think of the process, the Prime Directive requires us to respect it. But, by the same token, it requires us to respect the customs of other species with regard to their dead. The Kobali don't deserve any extra consideration - it's like the old adage about the right to swing your fist ending where the other guy's nose starts. Any accommodation for the Kobali life cycle has to proceed on a basis of it being culturally acceptable to everyone concerned. Not just the Kobali. That is my interpretation of the Prime Directive... and I am tempted to say, as a Fleet Admiral and a Federation Ambassador, and the officer at the sharp edge of the situation, my interpretation is the one that counts, and that Benzite can take her interpretation and shove it up her... airlock.
So then we have to worry about what's right, and what's expedient. I will take the view that letting the Kobali become extinct wouldn't be right, and that, therefore, working out some kind of a deal becomes a necessity. Stopping the Kobali becoming extinct requires a) finding a supply of available bodies for them, and b) getting the Vaadwaur to stop shooting them. Both of which are issues of negotiation - tough, especially considering the Vaadwaur's cultural biases, but feasible.
The ideal solution would involve the Kobali using only freely donated bodies, the Vaadwaur getting their people back... and an alliance with the Vaadwaur to go after the real Big Bads around here. The problem is reaching that ideal solution... and an attitude of "we will back up the Kobali no matter what" won't get us there. Because, bad guys or not, the Vaadwaur have a legitimate grievance against the Kobali in particular, and we're not going to get anywhere by denying that.
As I noted before, the mere fact that the bluegills were needed indicates that the Vaadwaur high command had more restraint than Gaul and his Iconian handlers were willing to tolerate. And the Vaadwaur are like anyone else in one big respect: they don't like being used.
As I've observed many times, dealing amicably with racist imperialists is nothing new to the Federation: the Ferengi Alliance excepted, every single one of their neighbors falls into that category. Yes, the Vaads are racist and imperialist. They're also willing to work with others for mutual benefit or else the entire last third of Delta Rising's plot couldn't have happened.
Fair enough, but there is a difference between working with your enemies to save your people, and working together with those same enemies for the benefit of all. Quite a bit of difference, and while we know the reaction to the former, we don't know the full scale of any reaction to the latter
And we can only guess at it thus far
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Or, it shows that Kirk had his head up his TRIBBLE that day, that Picard and Janeway had their heads up their asses every day, and that despite the wording of the Prime Directive Starfleet personnel are expected to use their own judgment and evaluate things on a case-by-case basis, just like with anything else,* rather than dogmatically adhering to the Prime Directive regardless of the situation. Now, which of those last two is more in line with the behavior of the average Starfleet officer in the shows?
* With the stipulation, of course, that anything they do is subject to review by the chain of command, and since nobody apparently had any problem with Kirk repeatedly telling the PD to go f**k itself on ethical grounds, or with Picard when he broke the Prime Directive nine times by "The Drumhead"...
Again, Plot and Media archetypes... Doesn't make the Prime Directive any less valid, or something which only applies when the officer in question feels that it needs to be violated (ie egotistically putting their own morals above their code of conduct)
But the Prime Directive he was talking about was the 1960s don't go revealing yourself to pre-spaceflight races (unless they already know about aliens) and don't pick sides in a living culture's internal issues or otherwise TRIBBLE with them (stagnate cultures under dictatorship's being an exception as well as in the event of global extinction events) version.
Which also lets him meddle in an external dispute between two species especially (or at least it seems) if one or both of them start dragging other people into it.
not the 1980s Don't mess with anyone ever even to help them and let the lesser pre-warp cultures die version.
Memory Alpha doesn't make any such distinction, but does give instances in which the Prime Directive can be broken (and neither of them work out well for the Kobali)
Fair enough, but there is a difference between working with your enemies to save your people, and working together with those same enemies for the benefit of all. Quite a bit of difference, and while we know the reaction to the former, we don't know the full scale of any reaction to the latter
And we can only guess at it thus far
But it's Star Trek style, established as far back as "Journey To Babel" and "Errand of Mercy", to turn your enemies into your friends, or at least your allies. That was how Kirk and Kang resolved the situation in "Day of the Dove", for that matter - when they realized the other entity was the greater enemy, they united to literally laugh it off the ship. The entire reason Starfleet has a whole Diplomatic Corps is precisely because often the best solution to an issue is talking, not shooting.
So yes, negotiate a peace, or at least an armistice, between Vaadwaur and Kobali. The Vaad don't seem to be upset about the occupation of what is now Kobali Prime, they just want their people back. The only reason not to give them back is due to the fear that you're just adding to the ranks of soldiers attacking - but once the shooting has stopped, there's no more fear.
Now, I can certainly understand the Vaad not accepting any offers from the Kobali, because one thing we've established is that the Kobali lie - easily and often. That's why the new Delta Alliance would be required to oversee the issue, with Benthan police making sure everybody's staying on the up-and-up. Heck, that could even be a new Featured Episode, perhaps leading into the rumored Season 10...
But it's Star Trek style, established as far back as "Journey To Babel" and "Errand of Mercy", to turn your enemies into your friends, or at least your allies. That was how Kirk and Kang resolved the situation in "Day of the Dove", for that matter - when they realized the other entity was the greater enemy, they united to literally laugh it off the ship. The entire reason Starfleet has a whole Diplomatic Corps is precisely because often the best solution to an issue is talking, not shooting.
So yes, negotiate a peace, or at least an armistice, between Vaadwaur and Kobali. The Vaad don't seem to be upset about the occupation of what is now Kobali Prime, they just want their people back. The only reason not to give them back is due to the fear that you're just adding to the ranks of soldiers attacking - but once the shooting has stopped, there's no more fear.
Now, I can certainly understand the Vaad not accepting any offers from the Kobali, because one thing we've established is that the Kobali lie - easily and often. That's why the new Delta Alliance would be required to oversee the issue, with Benthan police making sure everybody's staying on the up-and-up. Heck, that could even be a new Featured Episode, perhaps leading into the rumored Season 10...
I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it will not happen quickly - no one Featured Episode can overturn an entire war. Making a peace/armistice in the process, sure, but not all the suspicions and mistrust
Plus, as far as the Kobali, the lying is not out of malicious intent (which does matter), but rather because they know of the delicate nature of their dark secrets. It's still a lie by omission, but it's not as completely bad as a result
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Doesn't make the Prime Directive any less valid, or something which only applies when the officer in question feels that it needs to be violated (ie egotistically putting their own morals above their code of conduct)
For the most part, it doesn't need to be violated. It's one of those things, like transporter biofilters, that only even needs to be brought up when it's a problem.
The preponderance of evidence suggests that the interpretation that is considered correct in-universe is the Kirk interpretation: you follow it unless there's a strong humanitarian reason to intervene, the situation impacts Federation security, or if somebody else has intervened already.
The Klingon Civil War in TNG is a perfect example. The Klingons are at this time one of the Federation's closest allies and a major military power, so it is in the interest of the Federation's national security to intervene. Also the Romulans have already intervened because they run on realpolitik and helping the House of Duras f**ks up both of their major enemies.
However the Federation can't afford to intervene more heavily than stopping the Romulans' arms shipments to the rebels, because Starfleet is still shorthanded from Wolf 359, and for all I know the Klingons would think it an insult that the Federation didn't think they could handle their own internal feuds. So Picard chooses to follow the Prime Directive by by not personally involving himself in the Civil War, but also ensuring by blockading the Romulan/Klingon border that nobody else interferes, either.
But it's Star Trek style, established as far back as "Journey To Babel" and "Errand of Mercy", to turn your enemies into your friends, or at least your allies. That was how Kirk and Kang resolved the situation in "Day of the Dove", for that matter - when they realized the other entity was the greater enemy, they united to literally laugh it off the ship. The entire reason Starfleet has a whole Diplomatic Corps is precisely because often the best solution to an issue is talking, not shooting.
So yes, negotiate a peace, or at least an armistice, between Vaadwaur and Kobali. The Vaad don't seem to be upset about the occupation of what is now Kobali Prime, they just want their people back. The only reason not to give them back is due to the fear that you're just adding to the ranks of soldiers attacking - but once the shooting has stopped, there's no more fear.
Now, I can certainly understand the Vaad not accepting any offers from the Kobali, because one thing we've established is that the Kobali lie - easily and often. That's why the new Delta Alliance would be required to oversee the issue, with Benthan police making sure everybody's staying on the up-and-up. Heck, that could even be a new Featured Episode, perhaps leading into the rumored Season 10...
We can start by taking the Vaad POWs out of the hands of the Kobali and preventing them from taking possession of any battlefield casualties so that there's no longer a legit reason for them to be on Kobali Prime in the first place.
Move the stasis tubes to the Alpha Quadrant, such as to a moon of ch'Mol'Rihan, and revive them, and it becomes prohibitive for the Vaads to go after them because they have to get through several layers of entrenched defenses and choke points (two different multinational fleets in the Dyson spheres and the home guard forces, minimum), which forces the Vaads to negotiate for them on the Alpha Quadrant Alliance's terms without involving the Kobali. Meanwhile you give the prisoners the treatment due their status as POWs and allow the Vaadwaur to inspect the facilities to see this, and you ease their fears that you might be as bad as the Kobali.
I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it will not happen quickly - no one Featured Episode can overturn an entire war. Making a peace/armistice in the process, sure, but not all the suspicions and mistrust
Plus, as far as the Kobali, the lying is not out of malicious intent (which does matter), but rather because they know of the delicate nature of their dark secrets. It's still a lie by omission, but it's not as completely bad as a result
Dude, it doesn't matter why the Kobali lied. You ever heard the fable of the Boy Who Cried "Wolf"? A serial liar is not believed even when he's telling the truth.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There has always been weight placed on the prime directive but it's worth mentioning General Order 7 to give it context. Prime shouldn't be interpreted as it's prescience among orders only that it was the first general/ standing order implemented as Starfleet entered into it's age of exploration.
General Order 7 concerning Talos IV remains the only directive whose violation is punishable by death. The Prime Directive is a very different beast; Nearly a legislated conscience. It is conditional order where the former is absolute. It places a great deal of responsibility in hands of a commanding officer who at the time was undertaking missions outside of known space for 5 years; And likely without oversight from a higher authority.
The discretion of the captain; their own interpretation of situations informed how the directive was followed. This lead to many circumstances across a host of captains where one who had apparently violated the same directive was railing against another who had. There is a gray area here and it harkens to it's origins. The directive is largely a frontier law of questionable validity in the known universe where crews can communicate freely with command.
It could be argued that the Prime Directive isn't relative to the Kobali/ Vaadwaur conflict. Both races demonstrated technology that places outside appllication of the mandate. Societal progression is the sole criteria the possibility of intervention might be based upon and both sides demonstrate some behaviors that should be cause for alarm.
I won't add anything more for the moment; I've thrown up a wall of text without sharing my opinions on the central question on the thread but I wanted to preface anything I stated with my proposition that invoking the prime directive does little to strengthen the case for supporting the Kobali.
Dude, it doesn't matter why the Kobali lied. You ever heard the fable of the Boy Who Cried "Wolf"? A serial liar is not believed even when he's telling the truth.
Yes, I have, but that's a simplistic children's story designed to say lying is bad, period. As soon as you get to reality, you find out that that's simply not the case at all. People still lie, even the ultimate good people with the little white ones. And the reasons for the lying matter a lot to people, at least some of them.
It's like with Worf; he acted Klingon the way he expected/heard them to behave. The reality was considerably different, and they often made compromises or decisions that didn't fit with his image, or the image of a Klingon in general.
Same thing here; it's simply not as simple as that, for anything, whether it's lying or anything else. I found that out before puberty even started, and I've never once had reason to question it.
Also, you say serial liar as if everything out of their mouths was a lie. Frankly, it isn't imo, but more 75% truth, while hiding very sensitive dark secrets behind the remainder (which we all have btw)
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Also, you say serial liar as if everything out of their mouths was a lie. Frankly, it isn't imo, but more 75% truth, while hiding very sensitive dark secrets behind the remainder (which we all have btw)
Mission-critical very sensitive dark secrets, that's my point. If you can't trust them to tell you big important things, why should you trust them on anything else? And they kept promising there wouldn't be any more secrets.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Mission-critical very sensitive dark secrets, that's my point. If you can't trust them to tell you big important things, why should you trust them on anything else? And they kept promising there wouldn't be any more secrets.
Because you believe in the good stuff - that's what we all defend in our friends and allies, right?
The rest is a matter of opinion, of course; you believe they shouldn't be trusted period over some incidents, that while harmful to the relations, are not game-breaking imo. I on the other hand, believe it shouldn't be allowed to destablize the entire relations, and that the best thing is to move forward, because it's better to work with the reality than reject/ignore it + them over one aspect (no matter how big). There is a breaking point to the latter of course, yet still
And that's about it, I believe
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
For the most part, it doesn't need to be violated. It's one of those things, like transporter biofilters, that only even needs to be brought up when it's a problem.
Well no, upholding the Prime Directive would work fine (but would make the plot point moot )
The preponderance of evidence suggests that the interpretation that is considered correct in-universe is the Kirk interpretation: you follow it unless there's a strong humanitarian reason to intervene, the situation impacts Federation security, or if somebody else has intervened already.
Well, there have been two aspects of Kobali behaviour impacting lives of Federation citizens, which would allow Starfleet to intervene (and likely insist on some restitutions and not take the Kobali side)
(and I still think a case could be argued for anyone carrying out General Order 24...)
The Klingon Civil War in TNG is a perfect example. The Klingons are at this time one of the Federation's closest allies and a major military power, so it is in the interest of the Federation's national security to intervene. Also the Romulans have already intervened because they run on realpolitik and helping the House of Duras f**ks up both of their major enemies.
However the Federation can't afford to intervene more heavily than stopping the Romulans' arms shipments to the rebels, because Starfleet is still shorthanded from Wolf 359, and for all I know the Klingons would think it an insult that the Federation didn't think they could handle their own internal feuds. So Picard chooses to follow the Prime Directive by by not personally involving himself in the Civil War, but also ensuring by blockading the Romulan/Klingon border that nobody else interferes, either.
So by that rational, in this instance, the Federation should simply stop anyone else getting involved with the Kobali Vaadwaur conflict (and arguably has no moral authority to assert in the Delta Quadrant) although that contradicts the above acknowledgement that the Federation does have business for seeking reparations... If the Federation needs to be allying with anyone, it's the Vaadwaur...
Because you believe in the good stuff - that's what we all defend in our friends and allies, right?
What good stuff? Answer that. What specific benefit do the Kobali bring to the Delta Alliance table?
Two things that I can think of: Manpower and ships, and a way to reuse battlefield casualties.
Problem #1: The Kobali are one planet with (estimating) a few million people on it, since they can all fit into one major city based on the events of "The Kobali Front". The Alpha Quadrant nations are multiple orders of magnitude larger, and just Starfleet by itself probably outnumbers the entire Kobali population. The Kobali do not add anything numerically to the Alliance that the Federation can't single-handedly make up for by redistributing its forces, and their tech base isn't anything to be impressed by: 40 years ago two of their ships together were no match for Voyager, a Starfleet medium cruiser, and their current best ship, the Samsar, was built with Alpha Quadrant tech.
Problem #2: The Kobali aren't going to let you keep anybody they revive. As showcased repeatedly they want anybody they revive to become Kobali, regardless of personal choice.
Aside from that the Kobali have been a net resource sink, and are consistently dishonest about important information and about whether they're going to be honest in the future. They're also intensely distasteful on any moral level except their own.
Whereas the Vaadwaur are only distasteful to the Federation: their beliefs line up perfectly with approximately anybody else in the Alpha Quadrant.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What good stuff? Answer that. What specific benefit do the Kobali bring to the Delta Alliance table?
Two things that I can think of: Manpower and ships, and a way to reuse battlefield casualties.
Problem #1: The Kobali are one planet with (estimating) a few million people on it, since they can all fit into one major city based on the events of "The Kobali Front". The Alpha Quadrant nations are multiple orders of magnitude larger, and just Starfleet by itself probably outnumbers the entire Kobali population. The Kobali do not add anything numerically to the Alliance that the Federation can't single-handedly make up for by redistributing its forces, and their tech base isn't anything to be impressed by: 40 years ago two of their ships together were no match for Voyager, a Starfleet medium cruiser, and their current best ship, the Samsar, was built with Alpha Quadrant tech.
Problem #2: The Kobali aren't going to let you keep anybody they revive. As showcased repeatedly they want anybody they revive to become Kobali, regardless of personal choice.
Aside from that the Kobali have been a net resource sink, and are consistently dishonest about important information and about whether they're going to be honest in the future. They're also intensely distasteful on any moral level except their own.
Whereas the Vaadwaur are only distasteful to the Federation: their beliefs line up perfectly with approximately anybody else in the Alpha Quadrant.
I meant the good in their souls, their interactions with us - just because you don't see it as such doesn't mean others don't
And btw, you and I have been arguing points about the Kobali for hours now, but keep arriving at the same wall; I don't think they're bad as a whole (certain actions, maybe), whereas you don't trust them period and certainly find their entire culture distasteful at best (so you're rather biased, but it is your opinion).
Isn't it about time to accept that, and simply stop? Do we need to hear each other's reasons for the opinion anymore?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
What good stuff? Answer that. What specific benefit do the Kobali bring to the Delta Alliance table?
Two things that I can think of: Manpower and ships, and a way to reuse battlefield casualties.
Problem #1: The Kobali are one planet with (estimating) a few million people on it, since they can all fit into one major city based on the events of "The Kobali Front". The Alpha Quadrant nations are multiple orders of magnitude larger, and just Starfleet by itself probably outnumbers the entire Kobali population. The Kobali do not add anything numerically to the Alliance that the Federation can't single-handedly make up for by redistributing its forces, and their tech base isn't anything to be impressed by: 40 years ago two of their ships together were no match for Voyager, a Starfleet medium cruiser, and their current best ship, the Samsar, was built with Alpha Quadrant tech.
Problem #2: The Kobali aren't going to let you keep anybody they revive. As showcased repeatedly they want anybody they revive to become Kobali, regardless of personal choice.
Aside from that the Kobali have been a net resource sink, and are consistently dishonest about important information and about whether they're going to be honest in the future. They're also intensely distasteful on any moral level except their own.
Whereas the Vaadwaur are only distasteful to the Federation: their beliefs line up perfectly with approximately anybody else in the Alpha Quadrant.
The Kobali need to be cut off from all aid unless they return the Vaadwuar stasis pods, only then can negotiations start.
Alliance troops are switched from a combat role to a neutral peace keeping force manning a buffer zone between the kobali and vaadwuar front lines.
In space the alliance fleet creates a buffer zone around the planet to separate both warring parties.
Commander Trip Tucker put the NX-01 between the andorian and vulcan fleets to try and stop a war, the NX-01 was badly damaged but it got the point across about the need for neutrality in these conflicts
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Doctor Phlox was in direct violation of his job as a doctor in not providing the cure.
Apples and Oranges. Phlox is a Denobulan Doctor on an exchange with Earth (mentioned in 'Broken Bow', I believe). He did not take the same Oath as Human Doctors.
Apples and Oranges. Phlox is a Denobulan Doctor on an exchange with Earth (mentioned in 'Broken Bow', I believe). He did not take the same Oath as Human Doctors.
That was a severe oversight on the part of United Earth to not require it as a condition of serving on their ship. Of course, seeing as the Vulcans were attempting to control Earth at the time, I am not sure how well that would've worked or if the Vulcans would have allowed it.
Personally under such circumstances I would probably have requisitioned a human doctor rather than Phlox or at least had the exchange officer in a subordinate position to a human who could make sure that all decisions in the medbay were in line with UE ethics, because the actions of those aboard one's command must be a representation of the ethics of that service. (Conversely a Denobulan in Starfleet as CMO would not be an issue to me as presumably said Denobulan would have been required to swear a Starfleet oath.) To allow medical ethics to be suborned to an unsworn other was a big error.
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Apples and Oranges. Phlox is a Denobulan Doctor on an exchange with Earth (mentioned in 'Broken Bow', I believe). He did not take the same Oath as Human Doctors.
He serves in the UEF Starfleet, he's subject to Human laws as an exchange officer. Just like Riker was subject to Klingon laws when he was on exchange in TNG.
Although, different legal systems are possible...
OK, you have a point, but Archer and the rest of the crew except T'pol are Humans and UEF citizens. Archer is CLEARLY in the wrong by not just letting Phlox commit genocide by negligence, but openly praising him.
@trek21, you're so laughably wrong here it isn't even funny. You are insisting, repeatedly, that a species whose standard policy towards dissent is emotional and relationship abuse, is somehow better than the Vaadwaur, who are garden-variety nationalistic xenophobes.
Your point so far is like saying, when confronted with a Russian policeman hitting a man who regularly beats his wife and kids, that you'd not only beat up the cop but you would view the wife beater as a good man and help him continue to treat his family like scum.
This has very disturbing real-world implications, and is the main reason why I refuse to quote you here.
The Vaadwaur are a militaristic society, highly aggressive, convinced of their own racial superiority, and harbouring deeply-felt grudges based on historical events.
Remind you of anyone else? Hint: it starts with "R", has seven letters, and rhymes with "omulan".
It's not impossible to make peace with these guys - all we need to do is show them how it's in their interests. Which shouldn't be too hard, because it actually is in their interests. (Their alternatives being 1) get consumed as a culture and turned into Iconian slaves, or 2) Obliteration Of The Vaadwaur 2.0, exactly the same as the last time everyone else ganged up on them and bombed them into oblivion.)
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Gaul shot a chef to make a point. He had to have his lieutenants infested with bluegills to control them, suggesting they wouldn't have willingly gone along with his plans. The mere fact that Eldex was willing to work with the player to mutual advantage proves that there's room for accommodation with the Vaadwaur people as a whole.
So, no, the Vaadwaur are not worse than the Kobali. A Vaadwaur was worse than the Kobali and that Vaadwaur is dead and gone.
Whose orders? That idiot Benzite's? I either outrank her or I'm not even part of the same chain of command. She doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Yeah, it is right, because under my solution everybody except the Kobali come out ahead. It's that pesky "needs of the many" thing again.
Guess what: Despite that line, Kirk broke the Prime Directive more times than I can count.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And Kobali being worse than Vaadwaur is only your opinion - it is not a fact. Which, again, you were making sound like fact, at least to me.
As for orders, the Benzite serves under Kim, who who only meet after the ranking officers at the Alliance tell us to go help the Kobali, and we, the ideal officers who want to help, do so no matter the rank we do have.
Your opinion - doesn't mean it should be done.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Which on the one hand, does not invalidate the Prime Directive, nor the idea that a Starfleet officers swears to uphold it with their very life, and on the other, simply confirms my point about American Media archetypes
I base my opinion on hard evidence. That's the difference.
And as far as the higher-ups, a good officer listens to their subordinates' input and makes adjustments to plan based on the situation on the ground. The situation is not what the Kobali claimed it to be except on the broadest strategic level and never has been, and is now drastically different from what it used to be. Ergo, the plan needs to change.
Or, it shows that Kirk had his head up his TRIBBLE that day, that Picard and Janeway had their heads up their asses every day, and that despite the wording of the Prime Directive Starfleet personnel are expected to use their own judgment and evaluate things on a case-by-case basis, just like with anything else,* rather than dogmatically adhering to the Prime Directive regardless of the situation. Now, which of those last two is more in line with the behavior of the average Starfleet officer in the shows?
* With the stipulation, of course, that anything they do is subject to review by the chain of command, and since nobody apparently had any problem with Kirk repeatedly telling the PD to go f**k itself on ethical grounds, or with Picard when he broke the Prime Directive nine times by "The Drumhead"...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
But the Prime Directive he was talking about was the 1960s don't go revealing yourself to pre-spaceflight races (unless they already know about aliens) and don't pick sides in a living culture's internal issues or otherwise TRIBBLE with them (stagnate cultures under dictatorship's being an exception as well as in the event of global extinction events) version.
Which also lets him meddle in an external dispute between two species especially (or at least it seems) if one or both of them start dragging other people into it.
not the 1980s Don't mess with anyone ever even to help them and let the lesser pre-warp cultures die version.
And so on - this is why some don't hate the Kobali, because they rather focus on their good rather than the bad (this is where the compromise and halfway stuff stems from), the whole moral bit about their culture aside. Or for other reasons
That's all
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Let's turn that on its head, shall we? You're insisting on the bad of the Vaadwaur and ignoring the good. This is where the compromise and halfway stuff stems from, the whole moral bit about their culture aside.
Don't raise questions you can't handle the answers to.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not to mention the whole opinion aspect - what some consider bad, others consider good, and vice-versa
And I can handle it fine lol
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That being said, I haven't seen them do anything like that extreme in DR. They've acted in decidedly underhanded ways, which I've already told my opinion of, but they don't seem as belligerent.
This is a logical fallacy known as appeal to nature. Whether something is natural or unnatural does not determine whether it's right or wrong. Nature is not a moral system--it's a mechanical one. You can't say it's morally right a water molecule has polarity, or that it's morally wrong that light exhibits characteristics of both waves and particles. It's not morally right that bees die after stinging when evolving a smooth stinger could solve that problem, it's just because of the way evolution works.
Well, it is a virus, to the best of my knowledge. It's a pathogenic delivery system. Whether the effects are "bad" are up for debate, but it is a virus.
This is the main argument behind the Prime Directive, but I don't think it really holds water. The universe in general and intelligent species in particular are so complicated that it's impossible to predict the outcomes of action or inaction. You can evaluate the immediate likelihood of an outcome, but that evaluation can be wrong and even if it's right, you can't be sure what that outcome will result in later.
This is the crux of the argument for the Prime Directive, but it cuts both ways. A blanket "hands-off" approach is no less likely to lead to unwanted consequences than a blanket interference approach. Furthermore, the observer effect means that just being present to witness something will alter the outcome.
I don't ascribe to the idea that we shouldn't "interfere with the natural course of cultural evolution." It's meaningless, in my opinion. Evolution, be it natural or cultural, functions as a product of interaction. Civilizations develop in no small part because they interact with other civilizations. Like evolution by natural selection, this can mean that civilizations go extinct, but it can also mean that civilizations take on characteristics (good or bad) that they wouldn't have otherwise. Furthermore, unlike natural evolution, there's nothing stopping civilizations from incorporating elements from other civilizations that have gone extinct.
I'm with starswordc in that I don't think much of moral relativism. There is right and a wrong separate of what a culture believes is right and wrong, but different civilizations have may different pieces of that right way of doing things, so cultural development through interaction is important for the the furthering of moral behavior. It's a messy process, yes, but it's the best way we have so far.
I strongly disagree with the Prime Directive, and I think that the only reason it holds is because it has eternal plot armor from the writers. We never see "bad" outcomes because the writers don't write it that way.
As I noted before, the mere fact that the bluegills were needed indicates that the Vaadwaur high command had more restraint than Gaul and his Iconian handlers were willing to tolerate. And the Vaadwaur are like anyone else in one big respect: they don't like being used.
As I've observed many times, dealing amicably with racist imperialists is nothing new to the Federation: the Ferengi Alliance excepted, every single one of their neighbors falls into that category. Yes, the Vaads are racist and imperialist. They're also willing to work with others for mutual benefit or else the entire last third of Delta Rising's plot couldn't have happened.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Of the three, the legal one is the most easily dealt with, I think. OK, it is Kobali culture to convert dead bodies into new Kobali... whatever one might think of the process, the Prime Directive requires us to respect it. But, by the same token, it requires us to respect the customs of other species with regard to their dead. The Kobali don't deserve any extra consideration - it's like the old adage about the right to swing your fist ending where the other guy's nose starts. Any accommodation for the Kobali life cycle has to proceed on a basis of it being culturally acceptable to everyone concerned. Not just the Kobali. That is my interpretation of the Prime Directive... and I am tempted to say, as a Fleet Admiral and a Federation Ambassador, and the officer at the sharp edge of the situation, my interpretation is the one that counts, and that Benzite can take her interpretation and shove it up her... airlock.
So then we have to worry about what's right, and what's expedient. I will take the view that letting the Kobali become extinct wouldn't be right, and that, therefore, working out some kind of a deal becomes a necessity. Stopping the Kobali becoming extinct requires a) finding a supply of available bodies for them, and b) getting the Vaadwaur to stop shooting them. Both of which are issues of negotiation - tough, especially considering the Vaadwaur's cultural biases, but feasible.
The ideal solution would involve the Kobali using only freely donated bodies, the Vaadwaur getting their people back... and an alliance with the Vaadwaur to go after the real Big Bads around here. The problem is reaching that ideal solution... and an attitude of "we will back up the Kobali no matter what" won't get us there. Because, bad guys or not, the Vaadwaur have a legitimate grievance against the Kobali in particular, and we're not going to get anywhere by denying that.
And we can only guess at it thus far
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Memory Alpha doesn't make any such distinction, but does give instances in which the Prime Directive can be broken (and neither of them work out well for the Kobali)
So yes, negotiate a peace, or at least an armistice, between Vaadwaur and Kobali. The Vaad don't seem to be upset about the occupation of what is now Kobali Prime, they just want their people back. The only reason not to give them back is due to the fear that you're just adding to the ranks of soldiers attacking - but once the shooting has stopped, there's no more fear.
Now, I can certainly understand the Vaad not accepting any offers from the Kobali, because one thing we've established is that the Kobali lie - easily and often. That's why the new Delta Alliance would be required to oversee the issue, with Benthan police making sure everybody's staying on the up-and-up. Heck, that could even be a new Featured Episode, perhaps leading into the rumored Season 10...
Plus, as far as the Kobali, the lying is not out of malicious intent (which does matter), but rather because they know of the delicate nature of their dark secrets. It's still a lie by omission, but it's not as completely bad as a result
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
For the most part, it doesn't need to be violated. It's one of those things, like transporter biofilters, that only even needs to be brought up when it's a problem.
The preponderance of evidence suggests that the interpretation that is considered correct in-universe is the Kirk interpretation: you follow it unless there's a strong humanitarian reason to intervene, the situation impacts Federation security, or if somebody else has intervened already.
The Klingon Civil War in TNG is a perfect example. The Klingons are at this time one of the Federation's closest allies and a major military power, so it is in the interest of the Federation's national security to intervene. Also the Romulans have already intervened because they run on realpolitik and helping the House of Duras f**ks up both of their major enemies.
However the Federation can't afford to intervene more heavily than stopping the Romulans' arms shipments to the rebels, because Starfleet is still shorthanded from Wolf 359, and for all I know the Klingons would think it an insult that the Federation didn't think they could handle their own internal feuds. So Picard chooses to follow the Prime Directive by by not personally involving himself in the Civil War, but also ensuring by blockading the Romulan/Klingon border that nobody else interferes, either.
We can start by taking the Vaad POWs out of the hands of the Kobali and preventing them from taking possession of any battlefield casualties so that there's no longer a legit reason for them to be on Kobali Prime in the first place.
Move the stasis tubes to the Alpha Quadrant, such as to a moon of ch'Mol'Rihan, and revive them, and it becomes prohibitive for the Vaads to go after them because they have to get through several layers of entrenched defenses and choke points (two different multinational fleets in the Dyson spheres and the home guard forces, minimum), which forces the Vaads to negotiate for them on the Alpha Quadrant Alliance's terms without involving the Kobali. Meanwhile you give the prisoners the treatment due their status as POWs and allow the Vaadwaur to inspect the facilities to see this, and you ease their fears that you might be as bad as the Kobali.
Dude, it doesn't matter why the Kobali lied. You ever heard the fable of the Boy Who Cried "Wolf"? A serial liar is not believed even when he's telling the truth.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
General Order 7 concerning Talos IV remains the only directive whose violation is punishable by death. The Prime Directive is a very different beast; Nearly a legislated conscience. It is conditional order where the former is absolute. It places a great deal of responsibility in hands of a commanding officer who at the time was undertaking missions outside of known space for 5 years; And likely without oversight from a higher authority.
The discretion of the captain; their own interpretation of situations informed how the directive was followed. This lead to many circumstances across a host of captains where one who had apparently violated the same directive was railing against another who had. There is a gray area here and it harkens to it's origins. The directive is largely a frontier law of questionable validity in the known universe where crews can communicate freely with command.
It could be argued that the Prime Directive isn't relative to the Kobali/ Vaadwaur conflict. Both races demonstrated technology that places outside appllication of the mandate. Societal progression is the sole criteria the possibility of intervention might be based upon and both sides demonstrate some behaviors that should be cause for alarm.
I won't add anything more for the moment; I've thrown up a wall of text without sharing my opinions on the central question on the thread but I wanted to preface anything I stated with my proposition that invoking the prime directive does little to strengthen the case for supporting the Kobali.
It's like with Worf; he acted Klingon the way he expected/heard them to behave. The reality was considerably different, and they often made compromises or decisions that didn't fit with his image, or the image of a Klingon in general.
Same thing here; it's simply not as simple as that, for anything, whether it's lying or anything else. I found that out before puberty even started, and I've never once had reason to question it.
Also, you say serial liar as if everything out of their mouths was a lie. Frankly, it isn't imo, but more 75% truth, while hiding very sensitive dark secrets behind the remainder (which we all have btw)
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Mission-critical very sensitive dark secrets, that's my point. If you can't trust them to tell you big important things, why should you trust them on anything else? And they kept promising there wouldn't be any more secrets.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The rest is a matter of opinion, of course; you believe they shouldn't be trusted period over some incidents, that while harmful to the relations, are not game-breaking imo. I on the other hand, believe it shouldn't be allowed to destablize the entire relations, and that the best thing is to move forward, because it's better to work with the reality than reject/ignore it + them over one aspect (no matter how big). There is a breaking point to the latter of course, yet still
And that's about it, I believe
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Well no, upholding the Prime Directive would work fine (but would make the plot point moot
Well, there have been two aspects of Kobali behaviour impacting lives of Federation citizens, which would allow Starfleet to intervene (and likely insist on some restitutions and not take the Kobali side)
(and I still think a case could be argued for anyone carrying out General Order 24...)
So by that rational, in this instance, the Federation should simply stop anyone else getting involved with the Kobali Vaadwaur conflict (and arguably has no moral authority to assert in the Delta Quadrant) although that contradicts the above acknowledgement that the Federation does have business for seeking reparations... If the Federation needs to be allying with anyone, it's the Vaadwaur...
Two things that I can think of: Manpower and ships, and a way to reuse battlefield casualties.
Problem #1: The Kobali are one planet with (estimating) a few million people on it, since they can all fit into one major city based on the events of "The Kobali Front". The Alpha Quadrant nations are multiple orders of magnitude larger, and just Starfleet by itself probably outnumbers the entire Kobali population. The Kobali do not add anything numerically to the Alliance that the Federation can't single-handedly make up for by redistributing its forces, and their tech base isn't anything to be impressed by: 40 years ago two of their ships together were no match for Voyager, a Starfleet medium cruiser, and their current best ship, the Samsar, was built with Alpha Quadrant tech.
Problem #2: The Kobali aren't going to let you keep anybody they revive. As showcased repeatedly they want anybody they revive to become Kobali, regardless of personal choice.
Aside from that the Kobali have been a net resource sink, and are consistently dishonest about important information and about whether they're going to be honest in the future. They're also intensely distasteful on any moral level except their own.
Whereas the Vaadwaur are only distasteful to the Federation: their beliefs line up perfectly with approximately anybody else in the Alpha Quadrant.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And btw, you and I have been arguing points about the Kobali for hours now, but keep arriving at the same wall; I don't think they're bad as a whole (certain actions, maybe), whereas you don't trust them period and certainly find their entire culture distasteful at best (so you're rather biased, but it is your opinion).
Isn't it about time to accept that, and simply stop? Do we need to hear each other's reasons for the opinion anymore?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The Kobali need to be cut off from all aid unless they return the Vaadwuar stasis pods, only then can negotiations start.
Alliance troops are switched from a combat role to a neutral peace keeping force manning a buffer zone between the kobali and vaadwuar front lines.
In space the alliance fleet creates a buffer zone around the planet to separate both warring parties.
Commander Trip Tucker put the NX-01 between the andorian and vulcan fleets to try and stop a war, the NX-01 was badly damaged but it got the point across about the need for neutrality in these conflicts
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Apples and Oranges. Phlox is a Denobulan Doctor on an exchange with Earth (mentioned in 'Broken Bow', I believe). He did not take the same Oath as Human Doctors.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That was a severe oversight on the part of United Earth to not require it as a condition of serving on their ship. Of course, seeing as the Vulcans were attempting to control Earth at the time, I am not sure how well that would've worked or if the Vulcans would have allowed it.
Personally under such circumstances I would probably have requisitioned a human doctor rather than Phlox or at least had the exchange officer in a subordinate position to a human who could make sure that all decisions in the medbay were in line with UE ethics, because the actions of those aboard one's command must be a representation of the ethics of that service. (Conversely a Denobulan in Starfleet as CMO would not be an issue to me as presumably said Denobulan would have been required to swear a Starfleet oath.) To allow medical ethics to be suborned to an unsworn other was a big error.
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He serves in the UEF Starfleet, he's subject to Human laws as an exchange officer. Just like Riker was subject to Klingon laws when he was on exchange in TNG.
Although, different legal systems are possible...
OK, you have a point, but Archer and the rest of the crew except T'pol are Humans and UEF citizens. Archer is CLEARLY in the wrong by not just letting Phlox commit genocide by negligence, but openly praising him.
@trek21, you're so laughably wrong here it isn't even funny. You are insisting, repeatedly, that a species whose standard policy towards dissent is emotional and relationship abuse, is somehow better than the Vaadwaur, who are garden-variety nationalistic xenophobes.
Your point so far is like saying, when confronted with a Russian policeman hitting a man who regularly beats his wife and kids, that you'd not only beat up the cop but you would view the wife beater as a good man and help him continue to treat his family like scum.
This has very disturbing real-world implications, and is the main reason why I refuse to quote you here.
Remind you of anyone else? Hint: it starts with "R", has seven letters, and rhymes with "omulan".
It's not impossible to make peace with these guys - all we need to do is show them how it's in their interests. Which shouldn't be too hard, because it actually is in their interests. (Their alternatives being 1) get consumed as a culture and turned into Iconian slaves, or 2) Obliteration Of The Vaadwaur 2.0, exactly the same as the last time everyone else ganged up on them and bombed them into oblivion.)