In Eldex's defense, the Kobali did say they'd give the Vaadwaur back their people. And they've gone back on that promise.
I don't remember this happening.
The story seems to present itself as being that the Vaadwaur never stopped attacking the Kobali. The Kobali promised to return the sleeping Vaadwaur on the condition that hostilities were ceased and they could talk, but the Vaadwaur clearly haven't done that. How's that the Kobali's fault?
The story seems to present itself as being that the Vaadwaur never stopped attacking the Kobali. The Kobali promised to return the sleeping Vaadwaur on the condition that hostilities were ceased and they could talk, but the Vaadwaur clearly haven't done that. How's that the Kobali's fault?
Here is an interesting question concerning this; what would the classic Captains have done if they where commanding and this was their show, instead of Harry Kim?
>Captain Archer
>Captain Kirk
>Captain Picard
>Captain Sisco
>Captain Janeway
>New Captain Kirk
New Lunar Republic
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
The story seems to present itself as being that the Vaadwaur never stopped attacking the Kobali. The Kobali promised to return the sleeping Vaadwaur on the condition that hostilities were ceased and they could talk, but the Vaadwaur clearly haven't done that. How's that the Kobali's fault?
Because it's the Kobali using the Vaadwuar bodies that started this pointless and bloody conflict
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Here is an interesting question concerning this; what would the classic Captains have done if they where commanding and this was their show, instead of Harry Kim?
>Captain Archer
>Captain Kirk
>Captain Picard
>Captain Sisco
>Captain Janeway
>New Captain Kirk
i think it's fairly obvious what kirk/nukirk would've done...gotten his shirt ripped and slept with as many kobali females as he could find
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Here is an interesting question concerning this; what would the classic Captains have done if they where commanding and this was their show, instead of Harry Kim?
>Captain Archer
>Captain Kirk
>Captain Picard
>Captain Sisco
>Captain Janeway
>New Captain Kirk
--Murder the Vaadwaur and blame them for it. When called out on his actions, he'd blame the Vulcans.
--Rip off his shirt, punch out both sides and make them sit down and talk, then dramatically catch a swooning woman or six and fly off into the sunset.
--Tear the Kobali a new one and make them and the Vaadwaur sit down and talk.
--THE Sisko would just death-glare at the Kobali and they would give him and the Vaads whatever they wanted.
--She'd listen to Shoulder Spider and make the Kobali her mutant zombie servitors, eat Harry Kim because Shoulder Spider said so, and exterminate the Vaadwaur with bioweapons because she'd consider it funny.
--He'd sort of aimlessly meander his way through the same thing as real Kirk, just not in as entertaining of a way.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
--Murder the Vaadwaur and blame them for it. When called out on his actions, he'd blame the Vulcans.
--Rip off his shirt, punch out both sides and make them sit down and talk, then dramatically catch a swooning woman or six and fly off into the sunset.
--Tear the Kobali a new one and make them and the Vaadwaur sit down and talk.
--THE Sisko would just death-glare at the Kobali and they would give him and the Vaads whatever they wanted.
--She'd listen to Shoulder Spider and make the Kobali her mutant zombie servitors, eat Harry Kim because Shoulder Spider said so, and exterminate the Vaadwaur with bioweapons because she'd consider it funny.
--He'd sort of aimlessly meander his way through the same thing as real Kirk, just not in as entertaining of a way.
I think you have an unfairly low opinion of Captain Archer. I think Archer would have tried to reach a compromise then either;
1. Steal the Vaadwaur stasis pods and return them.
2. Leave the Vaadwaur to wipe the Kobali out becasue it's none of his business.
What? That's about as consistent as Archer's character was until Coto came on the show.
As for Picard? He'd probably mediate an agreement, but he wouldn't get involved. And he certainly would not tear the Kobali a new one. He's what we call a 'lawful neutral'.
I think you have an unfairly low opinion of Captain Archer. I think Archer would have tried to reach a compromise then either;
1. Steal the Vaadwaur stasis pods and return them.
2. Leave the Vaadwaur to wipe the Kobali out becasue it's none of his business.
What? That's about as consistent as Archer's character was until Coto came on the show.
As for Picard? He'd probably mediate an agreement, but he wouldn't get involved. And he certainly would not tear the Kobali a new one. He's what we call a 'lawful neutral'.
Need I remind you of the absolute lack of morality displayed in the episode with the freighters that he demanded not fight back against the pirates who were attacking them, only to do EXACTLY what they were doing when in the same place a week later? And then CALLING UP HIS ENEMIES TO BRAG ABOUT HOW HE WAS GOING TO BEAT THEM? And the complete lack of diplomatic anything in "A Night in Sickbay". And "Dear Doctor", wherein he condones genocide.
Archer's a jerk with a vaguely amiable attitude.
Picard ain't lawful neutral. He's violated the PD nine times and refused to follow orders for ethical reasons more than once. Say what you will about "I, Borg", at least there was a clear ethical precedent against turning a sentient being into the equivalent of a bioweapon, and at the time Picard's method had a lot of potential.
Need I remind you of the absolute lack of morality displayed in the episode with the freighters that he demanded not fight back against the pirates who were attacking them, only to do EXACTLY what they were doing when in the same place a week later? And then CALLING UP HIS ENEMIES TO BRAG ABOUT HOW HE WAS GOING TO BEAT THEM? And the complete lack of diplomatic anything in "A Night in Sickbay". And "Dear Doctor", wherein he condones genocide.
Archer's a jerk with a vaguely amiable attitude.
Picard ain't lawful neutral. He's violated the PD nine times and refused to follow orders for ethical reasons more than once. Say what you will about "I, Borg", at least there was a clear ethical precedent against turning a sentient being into the equivalent of a bioweapon, and at the time Picard's method had a lot of potential.
I'd say lawful good. Maybe neutral good.
It's a while since I saw the episode, was it actual genocide, or was it natural selection causing a species to become extinct? Am I confusing two episodes?
When your time is up, your time is up. That is natural law. Everything in a linear existance decays.
It doesent matter if you are a person, a planet, or an entire species of people.
The Kobali's time is clearly up, and they should die, as all things die eventually. To stave death by their means is unnatural.
What gets me is the writing. We just sit back and take it when we learn that tha vaudwaar have developed an innoculation against kobali reanimation, and because the kobali are adverse to it and call it a virus, we call it a virus too.
It is clear that the Kobali are holding the Vaudwaar prisoners in the temple, and they might not be reanimationg them now (perhaps they cant because they are alive, and they cant just kill them in front of the Federation) - but they are hovering over their decaying bodies like vultures, that is what makes them disgusting
It's a while since I saw the episode, was it actual genocide, or was it natural selection causing a species to become extinct? Am I confusing two episodes?
I've been calling it "negligent genocide" because he had a fix for the problem and refused to give it on vaguely defined Prime Directive-esque grounds. This despite the United Earth Starfleet not having a Prime Directive.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
When your time is up, your time is up. That is natural law. Everything in a linear existance decays.
It doesent matter if you are a person, a planet, or an entire species of people.
The Kobali's time is clearly up, and they should die, as all things die eventually. To stave death by their means is unnatural.
What gets me is the writing. We just sit back and take it when we learn that tha vaudwaar have developed an innoculation against kobali reanimation, and because the kobali are adverse to it and call it a virus, we call it a virus too.
It is clear that the Kobali are holding the Vaudwaar prisoners in the temple, and they might not be reanimationg them now (perhaps they cant because they are alive, and they cant just kill them in front of the Federation) - but they are hovering over their decaying bodies like vultures, that is what makes them disgusting
Well, you can say that, but fiction has a hard time believing it. And it's not just Star Trek; Dragon Ball Z and other such animes have all defied death so many times it no longer has any hold, except in special circumstances
Out here, sure, it's natural law and anything disregarding that is unnatural. But imo, we can't let that extend to fiction, because it's exploring possibilities. Including the Kobali imo; if they existed in real life, I'd probably be creeped out - but since I know this is fiction, I entertain the idea from all angles, rather than purely my own reactions. It's that kind of look-past-all-differences-and-opinions that started ST in the first place, even if my form is a little different
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I've been calling it "negligent genocide" because he had a fix for the problem and refused to give it on vaguely defined Prime Directive-esque grounds. This despite the United Earth Starfleet not having a Prime Directive.
But at it's core, isn't that kind of non-interference, that neutrality, the key principle of the Prime Directive? I'm not saying that it's not harsh, or that someone's instinct would indeed be to help out, or to support the side of a friend/ally, but ultimately, the Prime Directive was likely written to cover situations just like this (although of course, Plot doesn't allow a 'stay neutral' option )
FYI, MDK, the whole plot of "Dear Doctor" was that the Valakians were supposedly at the end of their evolution and they were holding back the Menk in theirs.
Which is beyond idiotic because that's now how evolution WORKS.
Picard wouldn't "rip them a new one". He would, however, deliver to both sides a The Reason You Suck speech, then negotiate some form of compromise. The totality of his involvement in the fighting would have been to blockade the planet, preventing the Vaadwaur from eliminating the Kobali before negotiations could be completed.
Sisko would probably have done the same thing, except that his speeches would have been much angrier in tone, and his blockade more, ah, vigorous.
Janeway would have found out exactly what was going on, then left, using the PD as her excuse for not getting involved.
Picard wouldn't "rip them a new one". He would, however, deliver to both sides a The Reason You Suck speech, then negotiate some form of compromise. The totality of his involvement in the fighting would have been to blockade the planet, preventing the Vaadwaur from eliminating the Kobali before negotiations could be completed.
Sisko would probably have done the same thing, except that his speeches would have been much angrier in tone, and his blockade more, ah, vigorous.
Janeway would have found out exactly what was going on, then left, using the PD as her excuse for not getting involved.
Considering how inconsistent Janeway was though (even acknowledged by her actress), you need more options that she might do :P
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
But at it's core, isn't that kind of non-interference, that neutrality, the key principle of the Prime Directive? I'm not saying that it's not harsh, or that someone's instinct would indeed be to help out, or to support the side of a friend/ally, but ultimately, the Prime Directive was likely written to cover situations just like this (although of course, Plot doesn't allow a 'stay neutral' option )
'those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action'
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
FYI, MDK, the whole plot of "Dear Doctor" was that the Valakians were supposedly at the end of their evolution and they were holding back the Menk in theirs.
Which is beyond idiotic because that's now how evolution WORKS.
Besides which, to provide another line from the same scene as my current sig quote:
'those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action'
Exactly my point when I call the Prime Directive an excuse for cowardice.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
'those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action'
Yes, but sometimes taking action causes more damage than it solves - that's one of the reasons behind the Prime Directive, or at least an intended one; to prevent them causing such cultural damage. It isn't perfect, but it has been proven to be sound enough on several occasions, with of course examples for the opposite side of that argument on how it isn't sound on others
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I understand why Cryptic decided to use them. It is because they are so under developed in Star Trek. Think about it. Once you get past the word, "Kobali", you are probably free of licensing fees and creative control by CBS over your product. This game is a business. Any reduction in overhead, however slight, is a plus. I would imagine those license fees are far bigger than what most people who play this game realize. I would also imagine CBS has a pretty tight rein on the creative controls to ensure there is no degradation of the brand which would hurt image and profit.
But a race which propagates by utilizing the dead bodies of others because it has no choice isn't the choice I would have made. The Benthans would have been an excellent way to go. As well as the Tuarei. Imagine a Delta Rising where the Benthans are the featured race and the Alliance supports them in their taming of what amounts to a completely lawless frontier. Or a DR where the Alliance assists the Tuarei against the insidious machinations of the Elachi who have discovered Underspace and are attempting to dominate the DQ at the behest of their Iconian masters.
Unfortunately, both of these would have been variants on themes within STO we have already participated in. Doing either of them would have been playing safe and cautious. And cautious sometimes causes failure. By choosing the Kobali, warts and all, the Dev team took a bold creative step for which they should be commended. The Kobali are unsettling to most of us. It is difficult for anyone to confront their own mortality and what happens after. Yet here is Jhet'laya and the rest big as life(no pun intended) right in front of us. It is hard to be ambivalent about the Kobali. They are something where players take one viewpoint and only one.
One can argue about Prime Directive and canon Trek and morality of the Federation and all the other stuff as to why the Kobali are this that or the other. But in the end, at least they make you think. Isn't this what good science fiction is supposed to do?
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
FYI, MDK, the whole plot of "Dear Doctor" was that the Valakians were supposedly at the end of their evolution and they were holding back the Menk in theirs.
Which is beyond idiotic because that's now how evolution WORKS.
I'm prepared to ignore the evoloutionary issue, because the issue itself remains one of neutrality/non-interference. Allowing a species to become extinct, is simply not the same as actively causing a species to become extinct by hunting members of it down, ie genocide...
One can argue about Prime Directive and canon Trek and morality of the Federation and all the other stuff as to why the Kobali are this that or the other. But in the end, at least they make you think. Isn't this what good science fiction is supposed to do?
I certainly find it proof that the spirit of ST is in the game Personally, it was always there, just massively unpolished and buried, yet still there - it's only gotten better imo. And no matter what the MMO gameplay mechanics are like, I don't think that'll change
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
On the contrary, it needs the utmost courage and fortitude to uphold it, when one's conscience dictates one behave contrary...
Then how come people are always portrayed as heroic for throwing it in a dumpster on moral and ethical grounds?
Guess what: Per First Contact Starfleet exists precisely because the Vulcans didn't follow their proto-Prime Directive and came looking when they picked up an unidentified warp signature in the Sol system. If they'd followed your warped (sorry) logic they'd have just logged it and stayed well clear.
And you were advocating preemptive genocide against the Kobali earlier, which would violate the Prime Directive just as much as forcing them to abandon their current method of reproduction, and with no moral justification I might add.
Besides which, the Romulans and the Klingons don't have a Prime Directive. What's stopping them besides railroading?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Guess what: Per First Contact Starfleet exists precisely because the Vulcans didn't follow their proto-Prime Directive and came looking when they picked up an unidentified warp signature in the Sol system. If they'd followed your warped (sorry) logic they'd have just logged it and stayed well clear.
But they did follow their "proto-Prime Directive"; once they detected a warp signature, all bets were off. I don't know where Jean-Luc picked up this dumb idea that the PD prevented him from interfering in anything, but that's not the PD Gene Coon invented for TOS.
Then how come people are always portrayed as heroic for throwing it in a dumpster on moral and ethical grounds?
Guess what: Per First Contact Starfleet exists precisely because the Vulcans didn't follow their proto-Prime Directive and came looking when they picked up an unidentified warp signature in the Sol system. If they'd followed your warped (sorry) logic they'd have just logged it and stayed well clear.
And you were advocating preemptive genocide against the Kobali earlier, which would violate the Prime Directive just as much as forcing them to abandon their current method of reproduction, and with no moral justification I might add.
Besides which, the Romulans and the Klingons don't have a Prime Directive. What's stopping them besides railroading?
I'm gonna guess diplomatic aspects, which even they have
If any race wiped out the Kobali, the others would retaliate for them committing genocide, and also for possibly threatening the alliance. With the Iconians on their way and the Fed-KDF war just over recently, no one can afford for anymore in-fighting.
And for the Vaadwaur being kept, that's a morally grey area no matter how you splice it, but taking them would be as much aiding the enemy as an act of mercy, in addition to further tensions between the Kobail and the Alliance as a result. No to mention, all officers need the permission of the Kobali in the first place to go in and get them, or otherwise they break orders and that would escalate things. Which adds to the problem above that no one needs right now
So basically, moral grounds simply have to be moved aside enough that they can work with the situation realistically, rather than acting on impulse. That's what I think
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I'm gonna guess diplomatic aspects, which even they have
In "Sphere of Influence" the Klingons sided with the Romulans on the disposition of the space gate for no other reason than to get one up on the Feds. (That was before the Omega Directive thing conveniently took away the dilemma.) They could do the same thing here, forcing the Feds to go along to keep the peace.
If any race wiped out the Kobali, the others would retaliate for them committing genocide, and also for possibly threatening the alliance. With the Iconians on their way and the Fed-KDF war just over recently, no one can afford for anymore in-fighting.
Exactly why we should bring the Vaadwaur into the alliance. They've got as much reason to hate the Iconians as anyone, they're more reliable than the Kobali, Kazon, Klingons, or Hirogen, and they have more firepower than anybody not from the Alpha Quadrant.
And for the Vaadwaur being kept, that's a morally grey area no matter how you splice it, but taking them would be as much aiding the enemy as an act of mercy, in addition to further tensions between the Kobail and the Alliance as a result. No to mention, all officers need the permission of the Kobali in the first place to go in and get them, or otherwise they break orders and that would escalate things. Which adds to the problem above that no one needs right now
The solution is quite simple, actually. Take them away from the Kobali, revive them, and plant their asses in a POW camp in the Alpha Quadrant (one of New Romulus' moons would work: they're too small to hold an atmosphere, making escape difficult), to be repatriated to the Supremacy as part of a peace settlement.
So basically, moral grounds simply have to be moved aside enough that they can work with the situation realistically, rather than acting on impulse. That's what I think
Think again. The moral grounds can readily be turned to the realistic advantage of everybody except the Kobali with a little creativity.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In "Sphere of Influence" the Klingons sided with the Romulans on the disposition of the space gate for no other reason than to get one up on the Feds. (That was before the Omega Directive thing conveniently took away the dilemma.) They could do the same thing here, forcing the Feds to go along to keep the peace.
Exactly why we should bring the Vaadwaur into the alliance. They've got as much reason to hate the Iconians as anyone and they're more reliable than the Kobali, Kazon, Klingons, or Hirogen.
The solution is quite simple, actually. Take them away from the Kobali, revive them, and plant their asses in a POW camp in the Alpha Quadrant (one of New Romulus' moons would work: they're too small to hold an atmosphere, making escape difficult), to be repatriated to the Supremacy as part of a peace settlement.
Think again.
First off, even when you think they should have done something this way, that doesn't give you right to think that you should have period. That's pressing your opinion onto others
Except that the Vaadwaur are worse than the Kobali. Even with their suffering, they go to such lengths as killing a chef to make a point; no faction is comfortable with the Kobali's ways, but that latter part is unforgivable to any sentient being. Not to mention, even when Eldex found out about the Bluegills, he just wanted those bugs gone, detested working with officers, and still had no problem with destroying opposition (see his destruction of the ship in an episode).
You're still ignoring the 'broke orders' and 'rules of conduct' aspect; those can't just be ignored, even if you think it's the moral thing to do.
And also, like I'm saying, this is my opinion, and you have yours. Please don't tell me what to think. And edit, turning it to your advantage is exactly what the Feds/KDF/RR can't do, because no one officer has the right to make those decisions; their governments do, and they have many other factors than complex moral discussions to consider. Maybe you don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean your way is right (or wrong, but only so far as opinion)
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Then how come people are always portrayed as heroic for throwing it in a dumpster on moral and ethical grounds?
Because American media loves to promote the idea of the LoneEliteBadAss who ignores Teh Rulez and shows up The Man
If you simply view the Kobali situation as the PD is written, then there would be very little Plot (and if there was, it wouldn't be what the Kobali would want )
Guess what: Per First Contact Starfleet exists precisely because the Vulcans didn't follow their proto-Prime Directive and came looking when they picked up an unidentified warp signature in the Sol system. If they'd followed your warped (sorry) logic they'd have just logged it and stayed well clear.
If their criteria for contact was a warp signature, then they had no reason to not make contact after the Phoenix was launched...
And you were advocating preemptive genocide against the Kobali earlier, which would violate the Prime Directive just as much as forcing them to abandon their current method of reproduction, and with no moral justification I might add.
I'm advocating following the Prime Directive as written. The outcome, is not my concern, as the situation itself is not my concern, due to legally-enforced neutrality... As Kirk said, that is a starship captain's most solemn duty...
Comments
I don't remember this happening.
The story seems to present itself as being that the Vaadwaur never stopped attacking the Kobali. The Kobali promised to return the sleeping Vaadwaur on the condition that hostilities were ceased and they could talk, but the Vaadwaur clearly haven't done that. How's that the Kobali's fault?
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Here is an interesting question concerning this; what would the classic Captains have done if they where commanding and this was their show, instead of Harry Kim?
>Captain Archer
>Captain Kirk
>Captain Picard
>Captain Sisco
>Captain Janeway
>New Captain Kirk
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
Because it's the Kobali using the Vaadwuar bodies that started this pointless and bloody conflict
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
i think it's fairly obvious what kirk/nukirk would've done...gotten his shirt ripped and slept with as many kobali females as he could find
as for the rest, no clue
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
--Murder the Vaadwaur and blame them for it. When called out on his actions, he'd blame the Vulcans.
--Rip off his shirt, punch out both sides and make them sit down and talk, then dramatically catch a swooning woman or six and fly off into the sunset.
--Tear the Kobali a new one and make them and the Vaadwaur sit down and talk.
--THE Sisko would just death-glare at the Kobali and they would give him and the Vaads whatever they wanted.
--She'd listen to Shoulder Spider and make the Kobali her mutant zombie servitors, eat Harry Kim because Shoulder Spider said so, and exterminate the Vaadwaur with bioweapons because she'd consider it funny.
--He'd sort of aimlessly meander his way through the same thing as real Kirk, just not in as entertaining of a way.
did i mention lenzflare?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I think you have an unfairly low opinion of Captain Archer. I think Archer would have tried to reach a compromise then either;
1. Steal the Vaadwaur stasis pods and return them.
2. Leave the Vaadwaur to wipe the Kobali out becasue it's none of his business.
What? That's about as consistent as Archer's character was until Coto came on the show.
As for Picard? He'd probably mediate an agreement, but he wouldn't get involved. And he certainly would not tear the Kobali a new one. He's what we call a 'lawful neutral'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Need I remind you of the absolute lack of morality displayed in the episode with the freighters that he demanded not fight back against the pirates who were attacking them, only to do EXACTLY what they were doing when in the same place a week later? And then CALLING UP HIS ENEMIES TO BRAG ABOUT HOW HE WAS GOING TO BEAT THEM? And the complete lack of diplomatic anything in "A Night in Sickbay". And "Dear Doctor", wherein he condones genocide.
Archer's a jerk with a vaguely amiable attitude.
Picard ain't lawful neutral. He's violated the PD nine times and refused to follow orders for ethical reasons more than once. Say what you will about "I, Borg", at least there was a clear ethical precedent against turning a sentient being into the equivalent of a bioweapon, and at the time Picard's method had a lot of potential.
I'd say lawful good. Maybe neutral good.
It doesent matter if you are a person, a planet, or an entire species of people.
The Kobali's time is clearly up, and they should die, as all things die eventually. To stave death by their means is unnatural.
What gets me is the writing. We just sit back and take it when we learn that tha vaudwaar have developed an innoculation against kobali reanimation, and because the kobali are adverse to it and call it a virus, we call it a virus too.
It is clear that the Kobali are holding the Vaudwaar prisoners in the temple, and they might not be reanimationg them now (perhaps they cant because they are alive, and they cant just kill them in front of the Federation) - but they are hovering over their decaying bodies like vultures, that is what makes them disgusting
I've been calling it "negligent genocide" because he had a fix for the problem and refused to give it on vaguely defined Prime Directive-esque grounds. This despite the United Earth Starfleet not having a Prime Directive.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Out here, sure, it's natural law and anything disregarding that is unnatural. But imo, we can't let that extend to fiction, because it's exploring possibilities. Including the Kobali imo; if they existed in real life, I'd probably be creeped out - but since I know this is fiction, I entertain the idea from all angles, rather than purely my own reactions. It's that kind of look-past-all-differences-and-opinions that started ST in the first place, even if my form is a little different
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
But at it's core, isn't that kind of non-interference, that neutrality, the key principle of the Prime Directive? I'm not saying that it's not harsh, or that someone's instinct would indeed be to help out, or to support the side of a friend/ally, but ultimately, the Prime Directive was likely written to cover situations just like this (although of course, Plot doesn't allow a 'stay neutral' option
Which is beyond idiotic because that's now how evolution WORKS.
Sisko would probably have done the same thing, except that his speeches would have been much angrier in tone, and his blockade more, ah, vigorous.
Janeway would have found out exactly what was going on, then left, using the PD as her excuse for not getting involved.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Besides which, to provide another line from the same scene as my current sig quote: Doctor Phlox was in direct violation of his job as a doctor in not providing the cure.
Exactly my point when I call the Prime Directive an excuse for cowardice.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I understand why Cryptic decided to use them. It is because they are so under developed in Star Trek. Think about it. Once you get past the word, "Kobali", you are probably free of licensing fees and creative control by CBS over your product. This game is a business. Any reduction in overhead, however slight, is a plus. I would imagine those license fees are far bigger than what most people who play this game realize. I would also imagine CBS has a pretty tight rein on the creative controls to ensure there is no degradation of the brand which would hurt image and profit.
But a race which propagates by utilizing the dead bodies of others because it has no choice isn't the choice I would have made. The Benthans would have been an excellent way to go. As well as the Tuarei. Imagine a Delta Rising where the Benthans are the featured race and the Alliance supports them in their taming of what amounts to a completely lawless frontier. Or a DR where the Alliance assists the Tuarei against the insidious machinations of the Elachi who have discovered Underspace and are attempting to dominate the DQ at the behest of their Iconian masters.
Unfortunately, both of these would have been variants on themes within STO we have already participated in. Doing either of them would have been playing safe and cautious. And cautious sometimes causes failure. By choosing the Kobali, warts and all, the Dev team took a bold creative step for which they should be commended. The Kobali are unsettling to most of us. It is difficult for anyone to confront their own mortality and what happens after. Yet here is Jhet'laya and the rest big as life(no pun intended) right in front of us. It is hard to be ambivalent about the Kobali. They are something where players take one viewpoint and only one.
One can argue about Prime Directive and canon Trek and morality of the Federation and all the other stuff as to why the Kobali are this that or the other. But in the end, at least they make you think. Isn't this what good science fiction is supposed to do?
I'm prepared to ignore the evoloutionary issue, because the issue itself remains one of neutrality/non-interference. Allowing a species to become extinct, is simply not the same as actively causing a species to become extinct by hunting members of it down, ie genocide...
Simply does not apply...
"A starship captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."
- James T. Kirk, 2268
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
On the contrary, it needs the utmost courage and fortitude to uphold it, when one's conscience dictates one behave contrary...
Then how come people are always portrayed as heroic for throwing it in a dumpster on moral and ethical grounds?
Guess what: Per First Contact Starfleet exists precisely because the Vulcans didn't follow their proto-Prime Directive and came looking when they picked up an unidentified warp signature in the Sol system. If they'd followed your warped (sorry) logic they'd have just logged it and stayed well clear.
And you were advocating preemptive genocide against the Kobali earlier, which would violate the Prime Directive just as much as forcing them to abandon their current method of reproduction, and with no moral justification I might add.
Besides which, the Romulans and the Klingons don't have a Prime Directive. What's stopping them besides railroading?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
If any race wiped out the Kobali, the others would retaliate for them committing genocide, and also for possibly threatening the alliance. With the Iconians on their way and the Fed-KDF war just over recently, no one can afford for anymore in-fighting.
And for the Vaadwaur being kept, that's a morally grey area no matter how you splice it, but taking them would be as much aiding the enemy as an act of mercy, in addition to further tensions between the Kobail and the Alliance as a result. No to mention, all officers need the permission of the Kobali in the first place to go in and get them, or otherwise they break orders and that would escalate things. Which adds to the problem above that no one needs right now
So basically, moral grounds simply have to be moved aside enough that they can work with the situation realistically, rather than acting on impulse. That's what I think
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Exactly why we should bring the Vaadwaur into the alliance. They've got as much reason to hate the Iconians as anyone, they're more reliable than the Kobali, Kazon, Klingons, or Hirogen, and they have more firepower than anybody not from the Alpha Quadrant.
The solution is quite simple, actually. Take them away from the Kobali, revive them, and plant their asses in a POW camp in the Alpha Quadrant (one of New Romulus' moons would work: they're too small to hold an atmosphere, making escape difficult), to be repatriated to the Supremacy as part of a peace settlement.
Think again. The moral grounds can readily be turned to the realistic advantage of everybody except the Kobali with a little creativity.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Except that the Vaadwaur are worse than the Kobali. Even with their suffering, they go to such lengths as killing a chef to make a point; no faction is comfortable with the Kobali's ways, but that latter part is unforgivable to any sentient being. Not to mention, even when Eldex found out about the Bluegills, he just wanted those bugs gone, detested working with officers, and still had no problem with destroying opposition (see his destruction of the ship in an episode).
You're still ignoring the 'broke orders' and 'rules of conduct' aspect; those can't just be ignored, even if you think it's the moral thing to do.
And also, like I'm saying, this is my opinion, and you have yours. Please don't tell me what to think. And edit, turning it to your advantage is exactly what the Feds/KDF/RR can't do, because no one officer has the right to make those decisions; their governments do, and they have many other factors than complex moral discussions to consider. Maybe you don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean your way is right (or wrong, but only so far as opinion)
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
If you simply view the Kobali situation as the PD is written, then there would be very little Plot (and if there was, it wouldn't be what the Kobali would want
If their criteria for contact was a warp signature, then they had no reason to not make contact after the Phoenix was launched...
I'm advocating following the Prime Directive as written. The outcome, is not my concern, as the situation itself is not my concern, due to legally-enforced neutrality... As Kirk said, that is a starship captain's most solemn duty...
Just Plot...