My concerns are altruistic. I myself have and can generate huge amounts of dil because I am such a productive player, but it isn't me I'm worried about, I am covered in gravy, I will be fine one way or another.
My motives are altruistic, I am seeking global solutions for global problems, a problem that affects the Workingman, not people like me.
I think people like me have an obligation to help the workingman don't you?
Oooh, what a load of hooey, boys and girls!
Your sole intent to add options for PvP griefing is becoming more obvious.
how would that create a dil sink large enough to lower the prize of zen?
So what you actually want is to get your hands on Zen at a cheaper price? And you think forcing item destruction on everyone is the way to achieve that.
I say meh. I keep my items and keep selling my Zen at whatever the current price is, thank you very much.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If people are happy when they lose, the natural order of the world is turned upside down and there is no right or wrong on this earth.
Losing shouldn't be funny.
Why not? People shouldn't take games so seriously, it's not worth raging a storm in zone chat just because you lost. Better to have a chuckle, say GF and carry on enjoying yourself.
It is only a game at the end of the day. But we can agree to disagree on this.
It would be better if the price of zen were lower because then the workingman wouldnt have to gind as much dil to get zen to get the c store things.
Dude, i am the proverbial working man who must grind.... Tell me, And i do not agree. I do not believe thsi will make DIL more valuable, I believe this will amke folks less willing to use anything that has a DIL/Zen cost.
Also, I did not say why would a lower zen price be better, I was asking for a logic behind a DIL sink being beneficial. A lower zen cost might just encourage folks to do something else with thier Zen. Again, look at neverwintwer. I believe the 500:1 AD/Zen exhange backlog is up to 17 million now (and it eeps growing) because there are better things over there to do with the Zen.
Face it, the folks with zen will look for the best return they can get. what you are arguing for looks like it will make things other than the exchange "Better" for them.
And i expect that we will get at least a fleet holding and a rep in S2, new DIL sinks, so that might affect things. And before S2, is it REALLY a rational decision to spend Dil on the current ones? There is going to be a DIL glut for the next few months. The price of Zen WILL rise because of it. But the price is still below 200, the cap is 500 so really, is it that bad? Really?
STO can't and will never be able to support this type of idea. Not at least without a major overhaul in many areas such as the entire economics of the game itself, how to make items go *poof* and the player base attitude towards the idea...just a name a few.
In short, wrong game.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
Where is the rage when people demand this exact same proposal be applied to EC in the form of an 'exchange tax' or something of the like?
The "Exchange tax" has been around for years since it came out with the Exchange in 2010. An "Exchange tax" is present in most MMOs that have some type of Auction system and it is a common practice in Real Life since Auctions let people use their services for free.
The rage comes about from having our hard work destroyed. We obtained equipment with the knowledge that it would never be taken away from us unless it is a consumable and we use it or we sell or destroy it ourselves. We should not have to redo the work to obtain it again. If we want to play a Science Fiction MMO where we can lose our equipment due to dieing, then we will play Eve or Star Citizen Alpha or whatever stage of development it is currently at.
You dont have to gain anything to have more, as the truth of mathematics has repeatedly proved to you over and over again.
Your "more is better" also means "I have less items after a loss". So sometimes more also means less. Confusing, eh?
ANd if your goal is Zen price reduction, what that also means is that people have a harder time buying Dilithium via the Exchange. How do you think people with disposable income but without time to grind Dilithium would feel about that? For them, your "more is better" is actually "less is worse".
---
Also, just because there is no item destruction doesn't mean losing and dying is a totally fun and awesome experience. It's not, because at minimum the time spent respawning means you're not actively playing, and you will need more time to get the next reward. That's a negative aspect of death.
In PVP, a hard-fought match can be fun even if you lose - but winning may have been a little bit more fun. Even if no one loses an item.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Having read all of this (and laughed harder than I have in some time) two things become rapidly apparent.
1) The OP is basically saying "I am well geared and I want to ROFL stomp less geared people. But I want to do so in a fashion that impoverishes them and makes them weaker, so I can win faster without me having to spend anything, while at the same time making it easier for me to rip people off by dumping DIL to get ZEN at lower prices for me, even if that hurts casual PVP, the image of the game, and those selling ZEN."
2) The crux of the OP's utterly laughable logic seems to be as follows.
Posit: ZEN is priced to high.
Support: None. However, will resort to appeal to commonality and suggest "everyone" thinks it's too high even when no one else in thread aside from a Starfleet Dental member agrees with him, and said agreement is (probably) tongue-in-cheek.
From Posit, ergo ZEN is too high because DIL is too cheap. The best way to make DIL less cheap is creation of DIL sinks.
Corollary : OP is PVP and wants to win and do well.
To his way of thinking, he's being "helpful". The players like him who are overly greedy, already geared out in BIS-everything with lots of experience, will benefit. So will people who would buy ZEN for DIL if only it was more affordable.
What he fails to see is that his proposal is bad for:
1) people selling ZEN, which requires someone spend real money.
I'm not selling ZEN at all below a certain price, period.
2) OP fails to understand that since DIL can be created from nothing with only time costs but ZEN must be injected by the use of IRL Money, it is NOT in any way shape or form a DIL Sellers market. You take the best price you can get and you are happy with it because the DIL cost you $0.00.
For the math majors, given an opportunity cost of 0 (since you are playing a game anyway and not , say, working), and a base ZEN cost of $1.00 = 100 ZEN, a time cost of 8k DIL is the same as $.50 or something thereabouts if DIL/ZEN rate of exchange is 135/1.
If we magically slash the rate to 80 DIL for 1 ZEN, teh timecost to real cost is now -- wait for it -- double, or about $1.
However, the BASE WORTH of DIL is what the market will support, not some artificially lowered rate. If the value of ZEN to DIL is halved, I expect the amount of ZEN available to also be halved or MORE. When that happens, DIL prices will skyrocket again.
It will not work long - term. You will simply TRIBBLE off EVERYONE.
3) The proposal itself will not improve PVP. It will drive away people trying to get into it, people who want to PVP for fun, and people who are time-limited and don't have the time or resources to replace damage and costs on such a regular basis.
It's good for him and a handful like him, bad for everyone else.
WHY , OP, would anyone agree to this idea, given that the Dev's think it's stupid, the average player will be hurt (please stop lying about being for the 'working man' as this will penalize anyone who is time-limited in how long they can play since they now have HIGHER resource costs with the same amount of time to somehow reach them) or PVP players?
I expect either histrionic gibberish or more non-sequitur statements, such as "BUT HURTING THEM IS HELPING THEM AND I AM A NIGERIAN PRINCE."
Who would be left to play PvP when enough people have lost their Rep/Fleet Gear etc and are either stuck regrinding it or have just flat out rage-quit?
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
My motives are altruistic, I am seeking global solutions for global problems, a problem that affects the Workingman, not people like me.
I don't use the dilithium exchange. I have too many dilithium sinks as it is. You want an easier way to get free stuff, while destroying our gear. Your proposal is malicious.
At best the OP is uninformed and short sighted, and at worst he is a greifing elitist trying to hide behind "Altruism."
Either way his idea is something that is never going to be a part of the game, so how about we all just drop this and leave him alone with his big idea.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
You dont have to gain anything to have more, as the truth of mathematics has repeatedly proved to you over and over again.
More is only better if I steal the item away from you not destroy it. If I have 20 items in my inventory and you have 20 items in your inventory and destroy you, then still having 20 items in my inventory is not more. Why should I care that you have now have 19 items instead of 20? What you do with your time and what you have has absolutely no effect on my life.
As far as people not liking to lose in PvP, some PvPers PvP for the challenge of fighting against skilled opponents and to learn how to take on stronger opponents. Losing in an unexpected way against a skilled opponent is far more memorable than just another win.
Once again, I would be willing to abandon the PvP aspect altogether to see this beneficial proposal put into action.
The good of so many multitdues of workingmen should not be held up because of the indigestion of the pvp microminority.
I am not in the slightest bit sorry and if you have to (repeatedly) resort to making fun of my signature then that is just a sign of how poorly you are doing in this debate.
I actually couldn't care less about the pvp part of this horrendous idea of yours. It is flawed from the ground up and will never (nor should it) be a part of this game.
So just stop. You are just showing yourself up at this point.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
We have heard loud calls for a long time for an exchange tax, but these noisemakers are misguided. EC cost inflation is not harmful to anyone, dil cost inflation is.
Why are EC cost inflation not harmful, but dil cost inflation is?
EC is the only reliable way to buy certain items. If you go the Dilithium/Zen Exchange for master keys, you have a 0.5 % chance per key to get an item. The cost for that ridiculous.
If you want to actually acquire the EC necessary to buy a lockbox ship, however, you need a lot of EC - and it's extremely difficult to earn this type of money in game, due to the inflationary cost of items on the regular EC Exchange.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Others having less is identical to you having more. Since "more" only has significance in the sense of "more than..."
The only thing that matters to me is having more than what I had before. If I have more than some homeless person, then it doesn't make me a better person. Destroying someone's stuff doesn't mean I have more stuff. It just means that they have less stuff.
Saying that you are using altruistic reasons to implement this, then saying that people should lose their items because you will have more than them is not altruistic, it is petty. Being altruistic means that you care about other people having more not less.
I am willing to withdraw the amendment stipulating a higher destruction rate in PvP.
And if it would get this beneficial proposal implemented, i would be willing to make PvP immune to item destruction.
Let it rot as it is, the greater good is more important than pleasing the micro-minority of PvPers.
The overall aim is to reduce dil cost inflation. Not to change PvP for the hundred people who play it.
This is about the workingman.
Well, as I've said before, This WORKINGMAN disagrees with you, however your tone and rhetoric is VERY Familliar to a workingman who lives in the DC area.
You see, our biggest IMPORT is politicians. Folks who will, at times, say anything, including blatant untruths because it fits thier idological position. Don't go all Marion Barry on me man, I get enough of that in reality
Why are EC cost inflation not harmful, but dil cost inflation is?
EC is the only reliable way to buy certain items. If you go the Dilithium/Zen Exchange for master keys, you have a 0.5 % chance per key to get an item. The cost for that ridiculous.
If you want to actually acquire the EC necessary to buy a lockbox ship, however, you need a lot of EC - and it's extremely difficult to earn this type of money in game, due to the inflationary cost of items on the regular EC Exchange.
Forget it... That guy is in it for the greed... He knows Zen is gonna get expensive, and I am willing to bet he would be one of the guys farming dil from players.
He is trying to hide it, but he has failed miserably, and the fact that he claims one kind of punishment is bad, and another that has the same fallout on a different currency is good, just proves that he isn't interested in improving anything other than his epeen and Dil-account.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I support this idea, it would keep n00bz from having nice things. I PUG it once in awhile and it's always something to see some player going around with a dozen or so 'injuries' on their ship. At least this route would punish them for their idiocy.
Repetitiveepic, If you want the game to be a challenge for you, make a new character and see how far you can level it without dieing (exclude PvP) When you do die, delete the character and start again. :P
You are wrong and you shame yourself with personal attacks.
EC inflation is not a hardship, dil inflation is.
To fight this hardship, we need a global solution.
What was misapplied to EC by people who couldn't see clearly, is rightly applied to dil.
The grotesque immorality of an EC tax is that it harms without providing any benefit.
The ethical permissibility of item destruction comes from the plain fact that while it harms a little, it creates a global good that far exceeds the small harm.
Dude... Don't pretend this isn't for personal winning...Don't pretend that you don't want to gloat in satisfaction when someone loses their gear...
You've made that intention very clear.
You don't care about inflation... You want that misguided sense of superiority and to fill your pockets...
Even the fact that you reply to others in individual posts, rather than multi-quoting is a sign that you want more for yourself.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Comments
These items are EXPENSIVE.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
People rage at that too.
But "more is better" is not an answer. Not if you haven't gained anything.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
Oooh, what a load of hooey, boys and girls!
Your sole intent to add options for PvP griefing is becoming more obvious.
It's pretty obvious what his only real motivation is: "I R 1337 PvPer, I want to teabag everyone I ROFLstompLOL NYUK NYUK NYUK!"
I say meh. I keep my items and keep selling my Zen at whatever the current price is, thank you very much.
Why not? People shouldn't take games so seriously, it's not worth raging a storm in zone chat just because you lost. Better to have a chuckle, say GF and carry on enjoying yourself.
It is only a game at the end of the day. But we can agree to disagree on this.
Dude, i am the proverbial working man who must grind.... Tell me, And i do not agree. I do not believe thsi will make DIL more valuable, I believe this will amke folks less willing to use anything that has a DIL/Zen cost.
Also, I did not say why would a lower zen price be better, I was asking for a logic behind a DIL sink being beneficial. A lower zen cost might just encourage folks to do something else with thier Zen. Again, look at neverwintwer. I believe the 500:1 AD/Zen exhange backlog is up to 17 million now (and it eeps growing) because there are better things over there to do with the Zen.
Face it, the folks with zen will look for the best return they can get. what you are arguing for looks like it will make things other than the exchange "Better" for them.
And i expect that we will get at least a fleet holding and a rep in S2, new DIL sinks, so that might affect things. And before S2, is it REALLY a rational decision to spend Dil on the current ones? There is going to be a DIL glut for the next few months. The price of Zen WILL rise because of it. But the price is still below 200, the cap is 500 so really, is it that bad? Really?
In short, wrong game.
The "Exchange tax" has been around for years since it came out with the Exchange in 2010. An "Exchange tax" is present in most MMOs that have some type of Auction system and it is a common practice in Real Life since Auctions let people use their services for free.
The rage comes about from having our hard work destroyed. We obtained equipment with the knowledge that it would never be taken away from us unless it is a consumable and we use it or we sell or destroy it ourselves. We should not have to redo the work to obtain it again. If we want to play a Science Fiction MMO where we can lose our equipment due to dieing, then we will play Eve or Star Citizen Alpha or whatever stage of development it is currently at.
Your "more is better" also means "I have less items after a loss". So sometimes more also means less. Confusing, eh?
ANd if your goal is Zen price reduction, what that also means is that people have a harder time buying Dilithium via the Exchange. How do you think people with disposable income but without time to grind Dilithium would feel about that? For them, your "more is better" is actually "less is worse".
---
Also, just because there is no item destruction doesn't mean losing and dying is a totally fun and awesome experience. It's not, because at minimum the time spent respawning means you're not actively playing, and you will need more time to get the next reward. That's a negative aspect of death.
In PVP, a hard-fought match can be fun even if you lose - but winning may have been a little bit more fun. Even if no one loses an item.
1) The OP is basically saying "I am well geared and I want to ROFL stomp less geared people. But I want to do so in a fashion that impoverishes them and makes them weaker, so I can win faster without me having to spend anything, while at the same time making it easier for me to rip people off by dumping DIL to get ZEN at lower prices for me, even if that hurts casual PVP, the image of the game, and those selling ZEN."
2) The crux of the OP's utterly laughable logic seems to be as follows.
Posit: ZEN is priced to high.
Support: None. However, will resort to appeal to commonality and suggest "everyone" thinks it's too high even when no one else in thread aside from a Starfleet Dental member agrees with him, and said agreement is (probably) tongue-in-cheek.
From Posit, ergo ZEN is too high because DIL is too cheap. The best way to make DIL less cheap is creation of DIL sinks.
Corollary : OP is PVP and wants to win and do well.
To his way of thinking, he's being "helpful". The players like him who are overly greedy, already geared out in BIS-everything with lots of experience, will benefit. So will people who would buy ZEN for DIL if only it was more affordable.
What he fails to see is that his proposal is bad for:
1) people selling ZEN, which requires someone spend real money.
I'm not selling ZEN at all below a certain price, period.
2) OP fails to understand that since DIL can be created from nothing with only time costs but ZEN must be injected by the use of IRL Money, it is NOT in any way shape or form a DIL Sellers market. You take the best price you can get and you are happy with it because the DIL cost you $0.00.
For the math majors, given an opportunity cost of 0 (since you are playing a game anyway and not , say, working), and a base ZEN cost of $1.00 = 100 ZEN, a time cost of 8k DIL is the same as $.50 or something thereabouts if DIL/ZEN rate of exchange is 135/1.
If we magically slash the rate to 80 DIL for 1 ZEN, teh timecost to real cost is now -- wait for it -- double, or about $1.
However, the BASE WORTH of DIL is what the market will support, not some artificially lowered rate. If the value of ZEN to DIL is halved, I expect the amount of ZEN available to also be halved or MORE. When that happens, DIL prices will skyrocket again.
It will not work long - term. You will simply TRIBBLE off EVERYONE.
3) The proposal itself will not improve PVP. It will drive away people trying to get into it, people who want to PVP for fun, and people who are time-limited and don't have the time or resources to replace damage and costs on such a regular basis.
It's good for him and a handful like him, bad for everyone else.
WHY , OP, would anyone agree to this idea, given that the Dev's think it's stupid, the average player will be hurt (please stop lying about being for the 'working man' as this will penalize anyone who is time-limited in how long they can play since they now have HIGHER resource costs with the same amount of time to somehow reach them) or PVP players?
I expect either histrionic gibberish or more non-sequitur statements, such as "BUT HURTING THEM IS HELPING THEM AND I AM A NIGERIAN PRINCE."
Who would be left to play PvP when enough people have lost their Rep/Fleet Gear etc and are either stuck regrinding it or have just flat out rage-quit?
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And massively increases EC item costs.
I don't use the dilithium exchange. I have too many dilithium sinks as it is. You want an easier way to get free stuff, while destroying our gear. Your proposal is malicious.
Either way his idea is something that is never going to be a part of the game, so how about we all just drop this and leave him alone with his big idea.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
More is only better if I steal the item away from you not destroy it. If I have 20 items in my inventory and you have 20 items in your inventory and destroy you, then still having 20 items in my inventory is not more. Why should I care that you have now have 19 items instead of 20? What you do with your time and what you have has absolutely no effect on my life.
As far as people not liking to lose in PvP, some PvPers PvP for the challenge of fighting against skilled opponents and to learn how to take on stronger opponents. Losing in an unexpected way against a skilled opponent is far more memorable than just another win.
Are you nuts?
You claim a tax destroys hard work... Yet thats EXACTLY what you are suggesting: Destroying hard work...
Credibility: Zero.
Yeah, or maybe a couple Lobi items or a ship you didn't open that you still had in your bags. Not a bad idea. Cryptics sure to love it.
Yeah, and how it adversely affects him or her.
I am not in the slightest bit sorry and if you have to (repeatedly) resort to making fun of my signature then that is just a sign of how poorly you are doing in this debate.
I actually couldn't care less about the pvp part of this horrendous idea of yours. It is flawed from the ground up and will never (nor should it) be a part of this game.
So just stop. You are just showing yourself up at this point.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
EC is the only reliable way to buy certain items. If you go the Dilithium/Zen Exchange for master keys, you have a 0.5 % chance per key to get an item. The cost for that ridiculous.
If you want to actually acquire the EC necessary to buy a lockbox ship, however, you need a lot of EC - and it's extremely difficult to earn this type of money in game, due to the inflationary cost of items on the regular EC Exchange.
The only thing that matters to me is having more than what I had before. If I have more than some homeless person, then it doesn't make me a better person. Destroying someone's stuff doesn't mean I have more stuff. It just means that they have less stuff.
Saying that you are using altruistic reasons to implement this, then saying that people should lose their items because you will have more than them is not altruistic, it is petty. Being altruistic means that you care about other people having more not less.
Well, as I've said before, This WORKINGMAN disagrees with you, however your tone and rhetoric is VERY Familliar to a workingman who lives in the DC area.
You see, our biggest IMPORT is politicians. Folks who will, at times, say anything, including blatant untruths because it fits thier idological position. Don't go all Marion Barry on me man, I get enough of that in reality
Forget it... That guy is in it for the greed... He knows Zen is gonna get expensive, and I am willing to bet he would be one of the guys farming dil from players.
He is trying to hide it, but he has failed miserably, and the fact that he claims one kind of punishment is bad, and another that has the same fallout on a different currency is good, just proves that he isn't interested in improving anything other than his epeen and Dil-account.
Dude... Don't pretend this isn't for personal winning...Don't pretend that you don't want to gloat in satisfaction when someone loses their gear...
You've made that intention very clear.
You don't care about inflation... You want that misguided sense of superiority and to fill your pockets...
Even the fact that you reply to others in individual posts, rather than multi-quoting is a sign that you want more for yourself.
You two have something in common then.